Printable View
that hypothesis fits exactly with the true origin of thracians isQuote:
Originally Posted by Ike
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom
the romanains are dacians.....................but with your map and this one.......are dacians also thracians?,
What opponent? who is extra nationalist?Quote:
Originally Posted by kamani
the only extra nationalist here I see is you,
When told that Albanians are Getto-Thracians somehere revolt and said Illyrian,
Now I see that also claim Geto-Thracian,
What is next by my EXTRA NATIONALIST NEIGHBORS?
GETO THRACIANS WERE ILLYRIANS? OR ILLYRIANS WERE GETO-THRACIANS?
I KNOW you follow the other one,
STARTING OF ALL IS YOUR HOMELAND RIGHT?
when I said ultra-nationalists, I wasn't talking about you. You just need a doctor, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yetos
Yes indeed, after so many years hearing you surely I need one,Quote:
Originally Posted by kamani
I wonder when was your last visit, maybe your medicine treatment does not work
Please guys, keep it cool. Let's keep doctors away from this thread. :)
I think that Danube was natural border between Thracians and Dacians, and on the map I've linked in previous post is encircled the formation territory of Romanian people. That may have been Dacians in major, but may have also included many other partly Latinized tribes of Thracian, Moesian and different origin, who were involved in formation of Romanian language and nation. I suppose that map was not drawn precisely, cause no precise data are even available, and it was more oriented on trying to explain (and assume) the position of Albanian speaking groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sile
Dear Zanipolo, did You Know any so called ancient greek tribue amed `hellas`? Do You know then name Hellen is from Helene. Helen have i albanian language significance of e lene, e braktisur- or in english- cast women, forlorn women. So,, why are you lying about ancient greece, when in that time all ancient tribues have been pelasgic-illyrian? Testimony of that are that majority of ancient words of tribues, places, and a lot of names can be easily significance in Albanian language..
Which could also mean that a lot of Albanian cultural and linguistic heritage comes from Greeks...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirro
Hello,
I must revive this thread because about few pages before I saw some talk about Gothic theory, and most did seem to agree that spread of I2a2 Dinaric fits perfectly in Gothic migrations, but were highly sceptical because they didn't have enough of evidence that ex-Yugoslavians are of Gothic origin- but read this post closely and you will find that Gothic theory of I2a Din is more than plausible.
I will start with first literary work among Yugoslavians, it is called "Chronicles of Priests of Duklja". From beginning it tells about two Gothic brothers, Totila and Ostroyllus. Totila conquers Italy, while Ostroyllus rules over Roman provinces Dalmatia (Bosnia and Croatia) and his capital is in Prevalis (Montenegro). He sent his son with most of army to conquer remaining of Panonia while he remained in Prevalis. Army of Byzantines came and pillaged his lands. When Senudial, son of Ostroyllus heard that he returns from Panonia to avenge father's death but he finds no Byzantines in Prevalis. From then on it talks about Gothic rulers and how they are ancestors of medieval Croat and Montenegrin rulers and people.
Don't forget that before that there were more migrations of Goths to this area: first one was in 370's when Goths fled from Huns to Balkans.
Dr. Rus in Ljubljana in 1914 even mentions migration of slavicized Goths from Vistula in 7th century to Balkans.
It is worth saying that in interwar period German historians Ludwig Glumpowitz and L. Hauptmann regarder Gothic origin of us as correct.
Not only Priest of Duklja but also Thomas the Archdeacon of Split in his "Historia Salonitana" in 13th century also writes about our Gothic origin, and about same Gothic migrations.
Venetian doge Andrea Dandolo writes about one mission of Neretvians in Venetia in 830. : "...Quia a Gothis originem traxerunt", which means "...which are descended from Goths".
Montenegrin town of Niksic was founded by Goths in 6th century. Our original name of that town in Onogosht, which is derived from Germanic name Anegast. At Skadar Gothic coins and buckles were found. Some linguists think that nearby clan of Hoti has some connection to Goths.
In Budva, too, Gothic material remnants were found, and also in early Christian basillica near Bijelo Polje where Gothic buckles and traces of destruction were found. Material remnants of Goths are also found all over Croatia and Bosnia.
Early christian basillica in Breza, Bosnia, is particularly interesting because there was found stone pillar with Gothic runic inscription.
And now about Gothic toponyms. Here are some from Bosnia and Montenegro, from book of Croatian historian Ivan Mužić: Onogošt, Ostrog, Gacko (also clan Gačani), Vareš, Hrgud, Brotnjo, Hardomilje, Argud, Otilovci, Konogovo, Gudelji... there are more of them which I don't remember.
Now let's look at Gothic remains in our languages. Our language, except for Scandinavian ones and Estonian, is only in Europe with pitch accent, and since Goths originate in Scandinavia it is very possible they brought it. There are also many Gothic words in our language, sadly many of them were removed during Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Here are some:
stijena-stains (Gothic): rock, brijeg-bjarg (Old Norse): hill, saian-sijati (Gothic): to sow, plaisan-plesati (Gothic): to dance, volja-vilja (Gothic): will, smokva-smakka (Gothic): fig, svrbjeti-swairban (Gothic): to itch, vrijedan-wairthan (Gothic): worthy, vještica-weihitha (Gothic): witch, stvoriti-stiurjan (Gothic): to create, trnje-thaurna (Gothic): thorns, wopjan-vapiti (Gothic): to cry out for help, svekrva/svekar-swaihra (Gothic): mother/father in-law, nećak-nithjus (Gothici): nephew, hrpa-haupaz (proto-Germanic): pile; bunch, ljekar-lekeis (Gothic): healer;doctor, frizura/češljanje-frisiaz (Gothic): hairstyle, bljesak-blason (proto-Germanic): blaze etc etc... There are over 1000 Gothic words in Chakavian dialect gathered by Croatian historian Mihovil Lovrić.
Now one interesting thing is connection between official religion of Bogomilism in medieval Bosnia and Arian heresy of the Goths. Gregor Cremosnik in 1937 is first historian to claim connection between Bogomilism and Arian heresy, because Bogomilism only appears there where Goths settled. It is interesting that popes often called Bosnians "arian heretics".
Stanko Guldescu:
"Both Tvrtko and Stjepan Tomašević (King Stephen of Bosnia) placed curiously ornate Gothic letters beneath the Bosnian crown and coat of arms. On many shileds found in Bosnia, and which antedate Muslim conquest, the typical device represented is that of moon and star, the design which appears on shield of Theodoric and other Ostrogothic kings, as well as on the mossaics that date from period of Ostrogothic rule at Ravenna. Also there is to be found on many of the oldest Bosnian gravestones (stećci) shields with this same device which was so popular among Ostrogoths. The German consul in Sarajevo in the last century was inspired by the noted historian, Theodor Mommsen, to undertake a study of Bosnian antiquities. He deduced a definite connection between strange-appearing Bosnian tombstones (stećci) and the Ostrogoths who ruled the area..."
I can also say that Slavs are most likely to have settled in parts of country fertile for agriculture, that is, in northern parts of Yugoslavia, while southern parts, in which I2a Din is more frequent was settled with Goths. Agriculture is EVERYTHING for Slavs. But in Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro it is contrary. French general Viala de Somier, when he visited Montenegro in 1820 observed that population has very limited use of farming, that men leave hardest agricultural works to women while their only duty is war, raiding and herding cattle.
I will also mention anthropological research. According to Priest of Duklja, core of Goths resided in Prevalis (Montenegro).
In 1939 book "The Races of Europe" Carleton Coon lists Montenegrins as tallest and heaviest men in Europe, and finds out that most of them belong to Borreby subrace, which is most numerous in northern Germany and western Norway.
I hope that I shed some light on this interesting subject. I had a LOT of links and pictures to share with you but unfortunately I can't since I don't have 10 posts yet.
Its good that the slavs learnt some gothic language after the arrived in old yugoslavia....it was gothic land for 200 yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by clintCG
I already explained what our medieval sources say. It was easy for Goths to accept Slavic language because they saw an ally in Slavs that they could use to get rid of Byzantines. Now think about this: if we have I2a Din wouldn't it be logical that Slavs brought more R1a? Only explanation is that they came here and then Goths impregnated their women, but it doesn't make much sense :)
And if I2a Din is not Gothic, then where should we search for Gothic haplogroup in us? I'm pretty sure they weren't I1, because most of I1 here is P109, and has strange value of STR481=0. Man on Sicily was found with that same value, and Nordtvedt thinks he has common ancestor in last 900 years with our I1's, so it must be Normans of Robert Guiscar (our king married his daughter) brought it, not Goths. Prehistoric continuity theory is outdated anyways, so I see only potential carriers in Goths, and also Bastarnae maybe...
For now it is known that I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 haplotype which have most Croatians and probably Montenegrins comes from White Croatia or southern Poland...
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
I2a1b2a1aS17250/YP204
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a* -
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a1Z16971
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a2Y4882
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983
I2a1b2a1aS17250/YP204 is ancestor of our I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983
so far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2014-05/1400615460
How much Goths have with White Croatians should be seen ...
Maybe they were Goths who lived in a White Croatia and then in alliance with the Slavs together as Croatians come to the Balkan....who later begin to splits and become other nations....
This is the only logic based on y haplotypes if they ever were Goths...
Of those Croatian - Gothic loan words, how many are Croatian and how many Common Slavic?
Are there any words present only in Croatian or at least only in South Slavic? Knowing Russian I notice quite a few cognates.
From their original homeland in southern Sweden Goths are in the middle of the first century. BC. Cr. switch to the area around the lower Vistula...
If this is true indeed some Goths came to the area of White Croatia...
It is possible that over there in the southern Poland ancestors of Croats lived under the Goths or in alliance...
Far as I know I2a type of haplotype which Croats have do not come from south Sweden to south Poland...Maybe someone knows differently and denied me ... it would mean that I2a could not be Gothic...
Quote:
Of those Croatian - Gothic loan words, how many are Croatian and how many Common Slavic?
Are there any words present only in Croatian or at least only in South Slavic? Knowing Russian I notice quite a few cognates.
Prof.Mihovil Lovrić
has published abundant linguistic heritage of nearly a thousand Gothic and early Germanic words still preserved in our Croatian Chakavian dialect....
That's all I know about Gothic in Croatian language... which are these Gothic words and they similarities to other Slavic languages I do not know in detail...
We had a discussion about location of White Croatia here:Quote:
Originally Posted by hrvat22
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...a-clades/page2
Pretty much this. There's no evidence of I2a-Din having spread from the Gothic homeland. I know that the location of the Gothic homeland is controversial, but under any best-guess I've seen, I2a-Din still isn't quite within range. I2a-Din's current distribution also doesn't match the spread of Goths very well. Why is it common among East Slavs, but not within former Visigothic territories?Quote:
Originally Posted by hrvat22
Are you saying that most I1 in the Balkans is L22>P109? That doesn't sound right, do you have a link? From what I've seen, most I1 in the Balkans, or at least an unusually high percentage of it (I don't have precise numbers handy), is I1-Z63. Although I'm not familiar with the case of L22>P109 STR481=0 in the Balkans, I1-Z63 is fairly common there, it makes up a significant subset of the ~6% of people there who carry I1, and it has an eastern-leaning but still Germanic-looking distribution among I1 subclades. Altogether, I think that I1-Z63 in the Balkans is a reasonable place to start looking for Gothic influence in Balkans Y-DNA.Quote:
Originally Posted by clintCG
Let's clear out something- it is thought that Croats came from "White Croatia" because of great number of same toponyms. Czech and Polish historians like to negate existence of White Croatia. With Montenegro it is different story, our proto-homeland is thought to be northern and western Poland and also in Germany from both sides of river Elbe, because they found about hundred of same toponyms on Elbe like we today can find here. However, that would also mean that we should have fairly similar genetic makeup with Slavs who remained there, that is with Sorbs. Then why do they have about 65 percent of R1a, while we have under 10 percent of R1a? Maybe it is because those toponyms weren't spread with Slavs, because that was former land of Goths...
I think those toponyms are misleading and shouldn't be used so much in historiography.
Are you actually aware about how Goths migrated? They migrated from what is today northern Poland (Gothic homeland pretty much) to Black Sea coast of Ukraine. After that when Huns pushed them they moved to areas south of river Danube in 370's- read part from book of Jordanes about it and you will find that they settled mostly in what is today Bosnia and surrounding states. And doesn't spread of I2a Din represent it? Nordtvedt located start of I2a Din and its splitting from I2a "Isles" and "Disles" in northern Poland 2500 years ago- and we all know this is long, long time before Slavs settled in, and that only known people which lived there were Goths. Now many say oldest homeland of Goths is Scandinavia and we don't know if we should trust Jordanes fully. But since proto-homeland of all Germanic peoples is Scandinavia they probably came to Poland from there, but much earlier than thought before, most suspect like in 750BC. Tacitus records only Poland as their homeland. Nordtvedt also said that "current spread of I2a Din is result of sudden expansion that happened possibly around 2000 years ago". So it started in Poland- where we today can see like 10 percent of I2a Din, they to Black Sea, where concentration increases, and finally they come to Dinaric alps where biggest concentration is.Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkey
You ask, how can I2a Din be present in eastern Slavs? Simply because part of Goths was actually subdued by Huns and remained on Ukraine Black sea coast- even Gothic dialect was spoken there until the 18th century (see Crimean Gothic). And about former Visigothic territories, we see that I1 (which you think is Gothic) and I2a Din are pretty much equal, or maybe I think I2a Din is even more numerous. It is also why you don't find so much I2a Din in Italy- because since early times Goths were settled in west Balkans and their expansion to Italy and Spain is result of only war conquest, not really settling. But I2a Din in Italy and Spain is still there in sizeable quantity. Also Sardinia was last settled by Vandals (east Germanic also) and it contains large amount of I2- although it is different from Dinaric one.
And let's go by logic- if all other I groups are Germanic (for example I1, I2b, I2a "Isles" and "Disles" which are closest to Dinaric), then how I2a Din is not?
I don't know for northern parts of Yugoslavia, but in southern Bosnia, Herzegovina and Montenegro most of people that are I1 are I1 p109 with STR481=0. It is also called "Drobnjak clan cluster" because it was first found among 7 men from that clan. Other I1 can also be results from any other Germanic tribes, or from large number of German miners that settled here in medieval times, not just from Goths, which I already explained. Anyways our medieval sources mostly tell us of Gothic origin of people of this area.Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkey
IMO I think I2a Din is spread with Goths- but I would like to hear other's opinions on this subject.
Yes, many words are only present in Croatian (by that I mean also in Bosnia, Montenegro and most of Serbia). Many actually look like Slavic but they are not- for example our word "vrijedan": in Russian -vredniy means harmful, while in our language vrijedan means worthy, which is same as Gothic wairthan. MOST of the words mentioned above are not common Slavic and are present ONLY in our language. I should add that some other words which are now "common Slavic" are actually spread to Slavic languages because of Old Church Slavonic and spread of Christianity, because it spread from south Slavic (linguistically speaking) lands to other Slavic ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by arvistro
As I mentioned there are many Slavic words in our language with totally different meaning in other languages: Russian word for diarrhea in our language means "pride" :)
What this have to do with the genes today's population of Montenegro ..Quote:
With Montenegro it is different story, our proto-homeland is thought to be northern and western Poland and also in Germany from both sides of river Elbe,
If Montenegrins have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 and probably they have, the majority or half Montenegrins coming from White Croatia because there is a source of I2a1b2a1a3 haplotype...
Sorbs have R1a M458 and Croats R1a Z280....That there was a migration from area of Lusatian Sorbs to the Balkan that would be visible in our genes.....Therefore there is no migration outside the White Croatia to the Balkan and to Croatia...Quote:
Slavs who remained there, that is with Sorbs. Then why do they have about 65 percent of R1a, while we have under 10 percent of R1a?
According Underhill et al Croats have M458 as their main R1A clade.
Well it has to do because that is what our official history tells us: that we are descended from Elbe Slavs and it's clearly wrong. R1a is only present in our northern areas, northern Croatia (Slavonija), northern Bosnia (Posavina) and northern Serbia (Vojvodina), again I say, because Slavs only settled in regions that are good for agriculture. Serbian medieval state of Raska was Slavic (R1a) too but they quickly migrated to north after Ottoman conquest and their lands were settled by I2a Din carriers. As I said if I2a Din originated in Poland 2500 years ago it is impossible that it is Slavic. Pattern of its distribution fits Gothic migrations perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by hrvat22
Quote:
Originally Posted by arvistro
Most Croatians have R1a Z280 CTS3402.....
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap
Lusatian Serbs and Croats are there in the adjacent columns from which it is clear that these two people have a very different distribution of branches haplogroup R1a.
Croats haplogroup R1a represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subclade Z280 (as in the eastern Slavs and the Carpathians)
Apparently the White Croats and Croats from the Carpathian Mountains to the Adriatic they are related people. About Lusatian Sorbs and Danube Serbs can not be said - they were too different lineage...
Translation from Russian .... answer to the question ... I. Rozhansky 2013/10/18 geneticist and expert for R1a haplogroup
http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel...j-civilizacii/
Quote:
Originally Posted by clintCG
Serbian scientist Milos Bogdanovic in the book Curse of Nations from 2004, clearly states that in medieval Serbian capital Ras in more than half skeleton of the medieval Serbs is blood type B, which is the Avar and Hun origin, which means that the Serbs originally an Avar group ...
Serbian scientist Miloš Bogdanović, book Curse of Nations, 2004.
The skeletons of the medieval Serbian capital Ethnicity 0 blood type is represented only in 13.9% of the skeleton, which is drastically less than 42% as much as we meet in the population of Kosovo at mid-century. This means that in the ninth and tenth century Serbs were very few mixed with Dinarics and Mediterraneans characterized by 0 blood group, while they were very mixed with the Avars. In fact, almost every second skeleton was found in the Ras, had a gene for blood type B, either inherited only from one, either of both parents.
Quote:
As I said if I2a Din originated in Poland 2500 years ago it is impossiblethat it is Slavic.
How is impossible when over there all types of R1a haplotypes are in the most-percentage through thousands of years ... and Croatian type I2a is in the center ...I'm not saying that I2a which Croats have is originally Slavic but in this area is with the Slavs several thousand years.... and if they are in alliance with R1a haplotype arrived in Croatia apparently they arrived as Slavs...
Is I2a before 5000 years was Gothic, Germanic, Turkish it has nothing to do with arrival of Croats as Slavs, perhaps early speakers of R1a did not speak Slavic and perhaps they felt as Turkmens ..who knows ...it has nothing to do with their present Slavic origin...
Wait in that link there are only 2 Croats with known R1a subclade.