How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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Originally Posted by Demetrios

I am not even close of having formed an opinion on the origin of I2a-Din in the Balkans, but has the Celtic possibility been addressed? I don't know, i am just asking. I personally voted for "Other" in the poll above.

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Many have actually theorised that I2a-CTS10228 expanded into Eastern Europe with Celtic speakers based on the fact that CTS10228* has been found in France and Germany. It was then picked up by the Proto-Slavs. However, it is certain that CTS10228>Y3120 in the Balkans only arrived during the Early Medieval. This is clearly shown through TMRCA and the fact that no CTS10228+ aDNA has been found in the region. As for where it expanded from, evidence does suggest Eastern Europe due to diversity. A study from this year suggested Southeastern Poland as the area of expansion https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-019-00996-0.

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

Many have actually theorised that I2a-CTS10228 expanded into Eastern Europe with Celtic speakers based on the fact that CTS10228* has been found in France and Germany. It was then picked up by the Proto-Slavs. However, it is certain that CTS10228>Y3120 in the Balkans only arrived during the Early Medieval. This is clearly shown through TMRCA and the fact that no CTS10228+ aDNA has been found in the region. As for where it expanded from, evidence does suggest Eastern Europe due to diversity. A study from this year suggested Southeastern Poland as the area of expansion https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-019-00996-0.

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Yeah, i had a somewhat similar view, with the only difference that i hypothesize I-CTS10228 to have entered the Balkans much earlier, with Celts such as the Volcae around 280 BCE, some of which entered Greece in what became known as the Celtic invasion of Greece (they reached Delphi), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece. TMRCA of I-Y3120's subclade, namely I-Y18331 which has the highest diversity in Greece, is placed at 100 BCE, and the only I-Y18331* is a Greek from Zakynthos. Of course the TMRCA of parent clade I-Y3120 being also 100 BCE, complicates things. But even if not 280 BCE, i still believe the entrance to be sometime in the late BCE. By the way, here is a map showing where the Celtic confederation of Volcae began from, which is very close to where the I-Y3120* Polish sample is placed.
Attachment 11758
Furthermore, what i find equally interesting is that the exonym Vlach (and cognate Wallachia) were originally used to describe romanized Celts, and its etymologically connected with the aforementioned Volcae, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names.

Even the aforementioned I-Y3120* sample which is from Podkarpackie Voivodeship (southern Poland) falls within the regional expansion of the Celts. Here are a number of maps which show their expansion all the way till Ukraine, and here is some more information of Celtic presence in Poland, which begins at approximately 400 BCE, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png
http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg

Last, here is an interesting article on the subject by Željko Musović which i found interesting, http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909. For example he writes, "The carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over south-eastern and north-eastern/north-western Europe. But, the south-eastern Europe (from Croatia to Greece and Bulgaria) is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades (from Y3120 downwards) are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years. It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the (south-eastern) Balkans.", among other things. I personally wouldn't be speaking of a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years concerning south-eastern Europe since the available samples and their TMRCA do point to a late BCE arrival (in a Balkanic context), but it does show that I-Y3120 largely evolved in the Balkans during the last 2000 years. Again, i am not not even close to having formed an opinion and mainly sharing all these for some feedback.

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Originally Posted by Demetrios

Yeah, i had a somewhat similar view, with the only difference that i hypothesize I-CTS10228 to have entered the Balkans much earlier, with Celts such as the Volcae around 280 BCE, some of which entered Greece in what became known as the Celtic invasion of Greece (they reached Delphi), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece. TMRCA of I-Y3120's subclade, namely I-Y18331 which has the highest diversity in Greece, is placed at 100 BCE, and the only I-Y18331* is a Greek from Zakynthos. Of course the TMRCA of parent clade I-Y3120 being also 100 BCE, complicates things. But even if not 280 BCE, i still believe the entrance to be sometime in the late BCE. By the way, here is a map showing where the Celtic confederation of Volcae began from, which is very close to where the I-Y3120* Polish sample is placed.
Attachment 11758
Furthermore, what i find equally interesting is that the exonym Vlach (and cognate Wallachia) were originally used to describe romanized Celts, and its etymologically connected with the aforementioned Volcae, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names.

Even the aforementioned I-Y3120* sample which is from Podkarpackie Voivodeship (southern Poland) falls within the regional expansion of the Celts. Here are a number of maps which show their expansion all the way till Ukraine, and here is some more information of Celtic presence in Poland, which begins at approximately 400 BCE, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png
http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg

Last, here is an interesting article on the subject by Željko Musović which i found interesting, http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909. For example he writes, "The carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over south-eastern and north-eastern/north-western Europe. But, the south-eastern Europe (from Croatia to Greece and Bulgaria) is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades (from Y3120 downwards) are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years. It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the (south-eastern) Balkans.", among other things. I personally wouldn't be speaking of a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years concerning south-eastern Europe since the available samples and their TMRCA do point to a late BCE arrival (in a Balkanic context), but it does show that I-Y3120 largely evolved in the Balkans during the last 2000 years. Again, i am not not even close to having formed an opinion and mainly sharing all these for some feedback.

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The origin of I-Y18331 is pretty unclear as of now, an origin from Eastern Europe has been suggested due to the fact that this branch is also present in the Chuvash and Ashkenazi Jews. And its brother clades, under Y3120, reach highest diversity in Eastern Europe. Though it's possible that this specific branch migrated to the Balkans earlier than the Y3120 clades.

Samples don't really show an arrival of Y3120 into the Balkans during the late BCEs or that Y3120 clades primarily evolved in the Balkans. As can be seen on Y-Trees, Eastern European nations show the highest basal diversity of Y3120. Poland, Ukraine and Belarus especially have high diversities. There is also the fact that the Balkan samples (South Slavs, Albanians and Greeks) share common ancestors with West and East Slavs, who lived sometime during the Early Medieval. Take the major clades of S17250 and Z17855 where every member shares a common ancestor that lived ~2,000-1,500 years ago. Then there's also the fact that so far CTS10228+ aDNA has only come from Eastern Europe.

The only branch under CTS10228>Y3120 that may represent an earlier migration into the Balkans is Y18331.

Surprising interpretations: sure, Celts make people to dream.

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

The origin of I-Y18331 is pretty unclear as of now, an origin from Eastern Europe has been suggested due to the fact that this branch is also present in the Chuvash and Ashkenazi Jews. And its brother clades, under Y3120, reach highest diversity in Eastern Europe. Though it's possible that this specific branch migrated to the Balkans earlier than the Y3120 clades.

Samples don't really show an arrival of Y3120 into the Balkans during the late BCEs or that Y3120 clades primarily evolved in the Balkans. As can be seen on Y-Trees, Eastern European nations show the highest basal diversity of Y3120. Poland, Ukraine and Belarus especially have high diversities. There is also the fact that the Balkan samples (South Slavs, Albanians and Greeks) share common ancestors with West and East Slavs, who lived sometime during the Early Medieval. Take the major clades of S17250 and Z17855 where every member shares a common ancestor that lived ~2,000-1,500 years ago. Then there's also the fact that so far CTS10228+ aDNA has only come from Eastern Europe.

The only branch under CTS10228>Y3120 that may represent an earlier migration into the Balkans is Y18331.

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Indeed, in the case of I-Y18331 we also have that single Chuvash sample and a number of Ashkenazim Jews. Although excluding the Chuvash sample, it is known that Ashkenazim Jews do autosomally cluster very close to Greeks, therefore this might be seen as a corroboration of the clade having formed in the Greek peninsula, namely around 100 BCE. This is also implied by the "Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes" paper you shared above. Another corroboration is that no Slavs seem to be under it, only non-Slavic populations.

As for I-Y3120*, indeed no samples except that Polish one. Regarding eastern European I-CTS10228+, are you referring to Polish samples? Probably you are right about the rest, though do take the time and read Željko's article. He does mention I-S17250 and I-Z17855 as well.

So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?

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Originally Posted by tiami

So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?

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Welcome to my problem. All the people that are recorded disappear into the sea of "slavs". Various reasons are always given, as most common is that they were small band of elite and the good boys slavs were oppressed by them, until the elite died out and the slavs were all best friends. The whole "slav" thing was developed to fight germanisation in Austro-Hungary by the purest slavs - Imperial Russia. Later it was version 2.0 with communism. Don't worry, nothing makes sense with slavs, dont even bother.

Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.

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Originally Posted by ihype02

Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.

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And what does that have to do with the thread at all??
By the way, how could we know if the Albanians are native to their current habitat instead of Dacia for example?

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Originally Posted by Aspar

And what does that have to do with the thread at all??
By the way, how could we know if the Albanians are native to their current habitat instead of Dacia for example?

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have you seen Albanian people taking DNA tests through available DNA companies? If Albanians were Dacians should not the Romanians been genetically the closest group to Albanians? Have you not seen that Romania's are not the closet group to Albanians but Tuscan's and Greeks instead!? Is this the first time you read about genetics? Very naive question in your part!

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Originally Posted by tiami

So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?

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Slavs are taught they began on the border of modern Belarus and Ukraine in the forests and swamps of that area.................a slow union of many smaller tribes over many centuries
basically this
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...igin_slavs.svg
Romans have no records of slavs

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Originally Posted by ihype02

Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.

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you have no idea on how many different people settled in western balkans from iron-age dalmatian times to the gothic invasion of circa 400AD ............there are many races entered the area

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Originally Posted by mac

Probably the genetic composition of populations changes little by little in each generation. In the absence of data about the genetic's of the ancestors of Romanians and Albanians over 2000 years ago, we can imagine many.

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so has changed the composition of Greeks and Toscans but still they are our closest genetic people, Which means Albanians have nothing to do with Dacians

The Jewish and Balkan sub-branches of Y18331-A10959 separated an estimated 2,100 years ago, with no other people participating in the branches but Ashkenazi Jews in one branch and south Balkans people in the other. That is very intriguing to think about, where the MRCA could have lived at the time of separation.

Ancient-DNA analysis of teeth and skeletal remains with utilization of miniSTR loci.

In 4 samples from Prague-Břevnov dated in 12 century AD there are two I-CTS10228. Unfortunately, extraction of DYS448 was not successful for both samples, but according to DYS449 both samples should belong to I-PH908.

Kit Number	Paternal line info	Place	County	Country	Population/Ethnicity	n	Haplogroup	DYS393	DYS390	DYS19	DYS391	DYS385	DYS388	DYS389i	DYS392	DYS389ii	DYS459	DYS447	DYS437	DYS449	DYS438	DYS444	DYS481	DYS446
Zub 12	Ancient DNA 12 century AD	Brevnov	Prague	Czech Republic			I-PH908	13	24	16	11	14-15	13	13	11	30/31	8-10		15	30	10	10	31	13
Zub 15	Ancient DNA 12 century AD	Brevnov	Prague	Czech Republic			I-PH908	13	24		11	15-15	13	12	11	29	9-10	25	15	28	10	13	31	13

The second sample has unique value for DYS444=13
I do not know if it is possible to find some more info about cemetery in Brevnov.

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Originally Posted by torzio

Slavs are taught they began on the border of modern Belarus and Ukraine in the forests and swamps of that area.................a slow union of many smaller tribes over many centuries
basically this
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...igin_slavs.svg
Romans have no records of slavs

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Because Slavic is post Roman name, they could call them Celts,Gets, Alans, Scythians...etc what do they know?
The big difference between Slavs and other European populations is that Slavs gave themselves a name, while all others as we know them got their name from Romans as they were subjected, and since most ancient history was written by Romans Slavs seem to not exist in history, but thats just a bias, a fallacy.

I can make a good analogy with Germans, Germanic, its a Roman designation people of Germany got as they were subjected by Romans, and then lets say that never happen and we all know them by Deutsch, and there is no Roman record of Deutsch.
That means if Romans didn't conquered Germans they would be in same position as Slavs today, as we would have no records of Deutsch

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Originally Posted by Dalmat

Because Slavic is post Roman name, they could call them Celts,Gets, Alans, Scythians...etc what do they know?
The big difference between Slavs and other European populations is that Slavs gave themselves a name, while all others as we know them got their name from Romans as they were subjected, and since most ancient history was written by Romans Slavs seem to not exist in history, but thats just a bias, a fallacy.

I can make a good analogy with Germans, Germanic, its a Roman designation people of Germany got as they were subjected by Romans, and then lets say that never happen and we all know them by Deutsch, and there is no Roman record of Deutsch.
That means if Romans didn't conquered Germans they would be in same position as Slavs today, as we would have no records of Deutsch

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This is the question of endonym and exonym, not Romans or not... For example the aformentioned "Celt" is a Greek name, not Roman (Latin). They called them Gaul/Gall.
For example, Germany called Allemagne in French, from the name of Germanic tribe Alleman.

And we also have late Roman names for Slavs, like Antes, Sclaveni or Vistula Veneti.

That said, a big part of these "exonyms" are in fact local "endonyms', let 's not confuse everything. "Celt(os?)" is a Greek spelling for some local tribal Celtic name. The very question is that these "exonyms" or "exo-endonyms" reflect contacts and so gives some historical reality to some folks, spite they don't tell us too long about the self-identification and self-conscience of groups or affilied tribes or about their collective name if there was any.

What is your toughts on Mygrations map?
It says about the the I-S17250 and its ancestors the following:
Funnelbeaker-> Baden -> Corded Ware -> Unetice -> Urnfield -> La Tene -> Roman Empire

So, I-S17250 can be considered as part of the La Tene culture?

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Originally Posted by Demetrios

Indeed, in the case of I-Y18331 we also have that single Chuvash sample and a number of Ashkenazim Jews. Although excluding the Chuvash sample, it is known that Ashkenazim Jews do autosomally cluster very close to Greeks, therefore this might be seen as a corroboration of the clade having formed in the Greek peninsula, namely around 100 BCE. This is also implied by the "Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes" paper you shared above. Another corroboration is that no Slavs seem to be under it, only non-Slavic populations.

As for I-Y3120*, indeed no samples except that Polish one. Regarding eastern European I-CTS10228+, are you referring to Polish samples? Probably you are right about the rest, though do take the time and read Željko's article. He does mention I-S17250 and I-Z17855 as well.

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Based on SNP tracker models, it seems that Y18331 came to the south Balkans via the La Tene culture and Celts. One model has it coming to Roman Macedonia, going northeast and forming sub-branches, and coming down to Greece. The other has it coming to Greece in the Imperial Roman era, thereabouts. Both models seem to support that Y18331 came before and separately from Slavs.
Attachment 12006Attachment 12007
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/blob:h...0-90e525d993a9



https://www.eupedia.com/forum/blob:h...e-a3a6a986a1a9

@ Ralphie boy
@ Demetrios

hm
could that Y18331 be from Vucedol to Ohrid known from archaiologists devastation?

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Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy

Based on SNP tracker models, it seems that Y18331 came to the south Balkans via the La Tene culture and Celts. One model has it coming to Roman Macedonia, going northeast and forming sub-branches, and coming down to Greece. The other has it also coming to Greece in the Imperial Roman era, but sooner. Both models seem to support that Y18331 came before and separately from Slavs.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/blob:h...e-a3a6a986a1a9

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Nice tool, i was unaware of it. Here are some more images that relate to I-Y18831 exclusively (not subclades).

yDNA Path to I-Y18331
https://i.ibb.co/4sTyM7s/y-DNA-Path-to-I-Y18331.png

SNPTracker-migration
https://i.ibb.co/0cfbm2Q/SNPTracker-migration.jpg

SNPTracker-speed
https://i.ibb.co/c6JQzj2/SNPTracker-speed.jpg

All these would complement what i hypothesized above for the Celtic origin of the clade. Maybe not directly through the Celtic invasion of Greece (279 BCE), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece, but from subsequent Celtic settlements in the Balkans and Anatolia. The southernmost region the Celts reached was Delphi and the southernmost settlement they established was Tylis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylis) in a Balkanic context. There was also the tribe of Serdi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi), that was living in the region of the modern-day capital of Bulgaria, namely Sofia. In fact, the Serdica district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdika) of Sofia is named after them. Then there is also Galatia in an Anatolian context, where they established a number of settlements. Furthermore, we have a number of accounts that mention Celts working in the Greek world as mercenaries and bodyguards (even down in Egypt, making it the southernmost region they visited eventually, not settlement). The Celts of Anatolia were eventually Hellenized to the point they were called Hellenogalatai and Gallograeci, which would allow them to travel more freely in the Greek world without being discriminated like before. I personally think of the Celts from Tylis as a more probable source of the clade, bearing in mind that I-Y18331 is not very common in Anatolia to begin with.

What is the source of your image to the left?

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Originally Posted by Yetos

@ Ralphie boy
@ Demetrios

hm
could that Y18331 be from Vucedol to Ohrid known from archaiologists devastation?

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I don't understand your question. Can you elaborate?

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Originally Posted by Demetrios

Nice tool, i was unaware of it. Here are some more images that relate to I-Y18831 exclusively (not subclades).

yDNA Path to I-Y18331
https://i.ibb.co/4sTyM7s/y-DNA-Path-to-I-Y18331.png

SNPTracker-migration
https://i.ibb.co/0cfbm2Q/SNPTracker-migration.jpg

SNPTracker-speed
https://i.ibb.co/c6JQzj2/SNPTracker-speed.jpg

All these would complement what i hypothesized above for the Celtic origin of the clade. Maybe not directly through the Celtic invasion of Greece (279 BCE), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece, but from subsequent Celtic settlements in the Balkans and Anatolia. The southernmost region the Celts reached was Delphi and the southernmost settlement they established was Tylis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylis) in a Balkanic context. There was also the tribe of Serdi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi), that was living in the region of the modern-day capital of Bulgaria, namely Sofia. In fact, the Serdica district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdika) of Sofia is named after them. Then there is also Galatia in an Anatolian context, where they established a number of settlements. Furthermore, we have a number of accounts that mention Celts working in the Greek world as mercenaries and bodyguards (even down in Egypt, making it the southernmost region they visited eventually, not settlement). The Celts of Anatolia were eventually Hellenized to the point they were called Hellenogalatai and Gallograeci, which would allow them to travel more freely in the Greek world without being discriminated like before. I personally think of the Celts from Tylis as a more probable source of the clade, bearing in mind that I-Y18331 is not very common in Anatolia to begin with.

What is the source of your image to the left?

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The other image is from a different SNP tracker in the link below. It uses YFull results whereas the other one uses FTDNA, I think.

https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/

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Originally Posted by Demetrios

I don't understand your question. Can you elaborate?

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According Giannopoulos and archaiology the GrecoBrygians came before 2500 BC from Vucedol to lake Ohrid
and from there went down to Mycaenae,

so could this Ydna I be part of them?