How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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Common Slavs culture comes from 5th century at the time of their expansion. Are you sure that at this time they didn't already include groups of two, or more, different physical characteristics?

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They probably did, BUT most Slavs that migrated to the Balkans came from modern day Poland. Polish people today are one of the most (if not THE most) Slavic-looking people. Poles also have the highest rate of R1a, which is in most cases correlated with Slavic migrations. Of course not ALL R1a clades are slavic, but the vast majority found in Poland and the Balkans are of "Slavic" origins.

If the Balkan Slavs were overwhelmingly Slavic, more of their haplogroups (other than R1a) would be present in their ancestral tribal lands in Southern Poland.

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Originally Posted by Templar

Both are the descendants of Cro-Magnon. There is very little slavic ancestry in the Dinaric Alps.

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It's possible for I2a-Din to be both descended from Cro-Magnon and largely spread by Slavs in the context of the Balkans.

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Originally Posted by Templar

...and probably above average testosterone levels.

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Is there any quality evidence for this? I don't know of any direct haplogroup vs. testosterone level study that has been performed, but based on the few relevant studies (sperm count, etc.) it doesn't seem likely that Haplogroup I means more testosterone.

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Originally Posted by Templar

If the Balkan Slavs were overwhelmingly Slavic, more of their haplogroups (other than R1a) would be present in their ancestral tribal lands in Southern Poland.

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I2a-Din is somewhat frequent in Southern Poland (~9% in Poland as a whole, and it's more frequent in Southern Poland), and in fact Southern Poland is around where I2a-Din-S reaches peak diversity, indicating that it launched from there. There aren't many other frequent haplogroups in Poland, just some I1 (probably mostly a late introduction, especially in Southern Poland) and R1b (probably a mixed late introduction with similar old types that you see in Eastern Europe.. although I haven't studied it closely).

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It's possible for I2a-Din to be both descended from Cro-Magnon and largely spread by Slavs

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I agree, but most of it was probably native.

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Is there any quality evidence for this? I don't know of any direct haplogroup vs. testosterone level study that has been performed, but based on the few relevant studies (sperm count, etc.) it doesn't seem likely that Haplogroup I means more testosterone.

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Not the haplogroup, but the people who usually have a high frequency of it, aka descendants of Paleolithic Europeans. I am guessing the high testosterone thing based on the fact that haplogroup I populations usually have more masculine features: tallness, high bone density, over-representation in most sports, high forehead, relatively large noses, etc.

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I2a-Din is somewhat frequent in Southern Poland (~9% in Poland as a whole, and it's more frequent in Southern Poland)

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Could be a back migration of the now mixed Slav-Dinarics, visiting "their cousins" :D

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where I2a-Din-S reaches peak diversity, indicating that it launched from there

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Are you sure of this? If this is true, it pretty much destroys my theories. But even if true, how could it possibly be possible? A huge amount of I2a nomads surrounded by overwhelming masses of R1as. I get that they were both mixed populations, but why would one be immensely different from the other 2?

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Originally Posted by Templar

I agree, but most of it was probably native.

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No no, I mean that it is all descended from Cro-Magnon, as well as being largely spread by Slavs in the Balkans. It turns out that Cro-Magnon descendants have gone on to be parts of lots of different ethnicities! Even ones with apparently Asian linguistic roots, and non-Cro-Magnon heritage mixed in.

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Originally Posted by Templar

Are you sure of this? If this is true, it pretty much destroys my theories. But even if true, how could it possibly be possible? A huge amount of I2a nomads surrounded by overwhelming masses of R1as. I get that they were both mixed populations, but why would one be immensely different from the other 2?

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It was in Verenich's analysis, which may be archived somewhere. Anyway, I imagine genetic drift occurring on a significant scale to explain the pattern... that is, Slavs could have been a majority R1a/minority I2a-Din to begin with (in fact I find this likely), and when they expanded southward, drift within their population enhanced their I2a-Din at the expense of their R1a. The relationship with autosomal DNA and phenotypes is probably at least as complicated.

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No no, I mean that it is all descended from Cro-Magnon, as well as being largely spread by Slavs in the Balkans

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Haha I know, I meant it was "native" as in already in Balkans before the Slavic migrations.

If the I2a clades brought by slavs are different from the ones already in the Balkans, then can't we use that to make a rough estimate of what % of the I2a was there before the migrations and what % after.

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Originally Posted by Templar

If the I2a clades brought by slavs are different from the ones already in the Balkans, then can't we use that to make a rough estimate of what % of the I2a was there before the migrations and what % after.

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We can't because we haven't found any surely native ones yet. It seems to all be I2a-Din.

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Originally Posted by sparkey

We can't because we haven't found any surely native ones yet. It seems to all be I2a-Din.

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would a butchering of 150,000 people in an area make a Haplotype difference considering populations in the balkans was not that great in the ancient times.....granted the area in question was Epirus ( modern albania and part of montenegro) , but did the E1b replace I2a

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_...us_Macedonicus

can we get I2a only from Northern "yugoslav" lands?

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Originally Posted by zanipolo

would a butchering of 150,000 people in an area make a Haplotype difference considering populations in the balkans was not that great in the ancient times.....granted the area in question was Epirus ( modern albania and part of montenegro) , but did the E1b replace I2a

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It would probably make a difference in total frequency, yes, but I don't think that we can conclude, based on that, that there must have been ancient I2a in the Balkans. There may have been, there just isn't evidence for it yet, and such a "butchering" doesn't count, either.

IMHO the Northern Balkans seems to have had both E1b and I2a expansions, from different directions. I suspect that something like J2 was the most frequent subclade there at one time.

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Originally Posted by sparkey

It would probably make a difference in total frequency, yes, but I don't think that we can conclude, based on that, that there must have been ancient I2a in the Balkans. There may have been, there just isn't evidence for it yet, and such a "butchering" doesn't count, either.

IMHO the Northern Balkans seems to have had both E1b and I2a expansions, from different directions. I suspect that something like J2 was the most frequent subclade there at one time.

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It makes me wonder that due to the very high % of E1b in this area which was the scene of this void of 150,000 people, that E1b was a migratory people after the Roman general Paulus did his deed.

I2a2 was born as Paleolithic haplogroup in Today Ukraine/Moldova and later it expanded in Balkans with Slavic migrations since they incorporated this haplogroup.

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Originally Posted by Eldritch

I2a2 was born as Paleolithic haplogroup in Today Ukraine/Moldova and later it expanded in Balkans with Slavic migrations since they incorporated this haplogroup.

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I adore such a kind of comments... Someone says something without any proof and disappear.

If you prove something, it would be nace to explain that with the data. This is recommended for all members here, not only for you.

If this study is good:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/...g2008249f2.jpg
Or the reduced version of the link above:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/figure/fig2/
You need to magnify it and wait a little,if you want to see the results.
That it is about 9.4% I2-M423 in north-east italians.The document is written in an older notation,but from what I understand I2-Din south is from I2-M423.Now I2-M423 is called I2a1b and I2-din south is called I2a1b1a.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_%28Y-DNA%29
No ideea if anyone made deeper testing to see if that I2-M423 from North-east Italy is I2-din south also.
Did slavs ever got there in such numbers?
Because is possibile to be there from colonists brought from Balkans + Romania/Dacia.Or maybe some ancient people from Roman Empire were bearing also I2-M423.

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

If this study is good:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/...g2008249f2.jpg
Or the reduced version of the link above:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/figure/fig2/
You need to magnify it and wait a little,if you want to see the results.
That it is about 9.4% I2-M423 in north-east italians.The document is written in an older notation,but from what I understand I2-Din south is from I2-M423.Now I2-M423 is called I2a1b and I2-din south is called I2a1b1a.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_%28Y-DNA%29
No ideea if anyone made deeper testing to see if that I2-M423 from North-east Italy is I2-din south also.
Did slavs ever got there in such numbers?
Because is possibile to be there from colonists brought from Balkans + Romania/Dacia.Or maybe some ancient people from Roman Empire were bearing also I2-M423.

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your last link in regards to north-east italians refers to Trento ( austrian people in majority)
below is a link from your last link
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html

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Originally Posted by zanipolo

your last link in regards to north-east italians refers to Trento ( austrian people in majority)
below is a link from your last link
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html

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If in that test and in the link you gave is said they are north-east italians I think they are italians,I mean they were choosed with italian family names.

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

If in that test and in the link you gave is said they are north-east italians I think they are italians,I mean they were choosed with italian family names.

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The historic and current scenario in that area is that it has always been about 55% austrian ( tyrolese) and the rest Italian.

maybe the tyrolese are neither germanic nor italian, but part of the old Raetian people....I am unsure. But these 55% "tyrolese" are noted in the Italian population as Italians from after WW. There are also Ladin people to be counted in there as well.
These people do not have "italian" surnames, ......besides whats an italian surname, ?....... My father's neighbours in northeast italy had surnames of Marzon, Martin, Bon, Pelligrin, Pilot, da Ros, Rosin, all families that where there when his grandfather was alive

What I do not understand about I2-din south is how is possibile that in Great Britain is a clade very close related to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA):
I2a1b1* low frequency in Great Britain (aka I2a Disles)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...p-I-in-Ireland
Now there is a very strange link between celts/gauls and Balkans and Romania (is certains some celts/gauls passed over here also- no one knows how much they influenced DNA,way of life,folklore and so on ).
Could I2A disles be brought in Great Britain with people taken from Balkans + Romania,in case I2a-din south is from continuity?
Sure to suppose this you need to supose in that time when celts were here I2-a din south (I2a1b1a*) was not yet branched from I2a1b1 which is I2a Disles.
You can suppose what is reversed also,that celts came from Great Britain to Balkans and Romania and they brought I2a1b1 here from which I2a1b1a* - I2-din south branched.

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

What I do not understand about I2-din south is how is possibile that in Great Britain is a clade very close related to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA):
I2a1b1* low frequency in Great Britain (aka I2a Disles)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...p-I-in-Ireland
Now there is a very strange link between celts/gauls and Balkans and Romania (is certains some celts/gauls passed over here also- no one knows how much they influenced DNA,way of life,folklore and so on ).
Could I2A disles be brought in Great Britain with people taken from Balkans + Romania,in case I2a-din south is from continuity?
Sure to suppose this you need to supose in that time when celts were here I2-a din south (I2a1b1a*) was not yet branched from I2a1b1 which is I2a Disles.
You can suppose what is reversed also,that celts came from Great Britain to Balkans and Romania and they brought I2a1b1 here from which I2a1b1a* - I2-din south branched.

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I wouldn't talk about the Celts and Gauls when talking about when I2a-Disles and I2a-Din branched... that event surely occurred before they existed. The TMRCA of I2a1b1 (Disles and Din together) is about 6000 YBP... Neolithic.

Between the two, I2a-Din is the greater geographic outlier within I2a.

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

What I do not understand about I2-din south is how is possibile that in Great Britain is a clade very close related to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA):
I2a1b1* low frequency in Great Britain (aka I2a Disles)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...p-I-in-Ireland
Now there is a very strange link between celts/gauls and Balkans and Romania (is certains some celts/gauls passed over here also- no one knows how much they influenced DNA,way of life,folklore and so on ).
Could I2A disles be brought in Great Britain with people taken from Balkans + Romania,in case I2a-din south is from continuity?
Sure to suppose this you need to supose in that time when celts were here I2-a din south (I2a1b1a*) was not yet branched from I2a1b1 which is I2a Disles.
You can suppose what is reversed also,that celts came from Great Britain to Balkans and Romania and they brought I2a1b1 here from which I2a1b1a* - I2-din south branched.

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I find it very hard thinking Celts could have brought seldom Y-I2a1-DIN or an ancestor of it into Balkans an then take advantage of a baby boom in Balkans (all these suppositions about the iron Age -!
it could be the contrary and yet I don't think so - I believe all this kinds of Y-I2a1 was either before Celts arrived in Occident or arrived with Celts having incorporated someones, not after La Tène expansion but before - without another proof I think still that I2a1b was born somewhere between Moravia and Ukraine (I can(t tell more for the moment) and that the position of its first bearers on a way of passage give it someadventage AND at the Neolithic introduction into Balkans and into further northern regions AND at the Metals Ages - I think still into some Beakers...
and as a lot on this topic I exclude a too early cristallization or expansion in the Dinaric Alps that was almost empty at the Paleolithic...
good night all of yours

The presence of I2a1b1 in UK at low percentages is weird,since you can not link that with vikings raiding there.
If this I2a1b1 would have been of native population there,how come it remained only in so low percentages?
Maybe some celts that passed over Balkans and Romania took some people of I2a1b1 with them and this is how I2A disles got in Great Britain.
No one knows for sure the time when I2a1b1a* branched from I2a1b1.

The strange thing is that there are cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,I am not refering to those forced cognates written here by how_yes_or_no but to more serious cognates found by scientists.
Some scientists from institute of thracology from Bulgaria said there are about 178 cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,which atests that celts lived sometime together with south slavs.
I also found this document:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13082475/C...avel-Serafimov
Some of the cognates here seems forced,but some are not.
There are few cognates between romanian and celtic languages also,like bou used to called the male of the cow which is identical to the celtic word for cow.
There is also R-L21 in Romania ,they found R-L21 at current romanian president as Y DNA.
There are arheological evidences linked with celts in Romania also,in Balkans also.

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

The presence of I2a1b1 in UK at low percentages is weird,since you can not link that with vikings raiding there.
If this I2a1b1 would have been of native population there,how come it remained only in so low percentages?
Maybe some celts that passed over Balkans and Romania took some people of I2a1b1 with them and this is how I2A disles got in Great Britain.
No one knows for sure the time when I2a1b1a* branched from I2a1b1.

The strange thing is that there are cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,I am not refering to those forced cognates written here by how_yes_or_no but to more serious cognates found by scientists.
Some scientists from institute of thracology from Bulgaria said there are about 178 cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,which atests that celts lived sometime together with south slavs.
I also found this document:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13082475/C...avel-Serafimov
Some of the cognates here seems forced,but some are not.
There are few cognates between romanian and celtic languages also,like bou used to called the male of the cow which is identical to the celtic word for cow.
There is also R-L21 in Romania ,they found R-L21 at current romanian president as Y DNA.
There are arheological evidences linked with celts in Romania also,in Balkans also.

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it's the firts time I heard of a survey showing or trying to show cognates linking celtic and slavic languages: we have to be very cautious here because "cognates" can be only some old borrowings or very common old indo-european terms: I have in mind the discussion about terms like 'brjeg' in slavic, shown by someones as the proof of a community of languages between Serbs and Celts... sure there are a lot of I-E cognates: what is interesting is to find someones shared only by celtic and south slavic... - I 'll try to read this survey... (thanks for the link)
Perhaps Taranis will have something to say?

Look what Jordanes is saying,but I do not know how accurate it is:
"Both writing in the mid-6th century, Jordanes and Procopius provide the first indisputable reference to the Slav ethonym, in the form Sclavenoi. Jordanes writes that their land stretched from the town of Noviodunum, to the river Dniester, then northward to the Vistula river. He adds that the Sclavenoi, Antae, and Veneti were but one people."
But they are refering to venethi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
So it would make a lot of sense,since russians from there are called "white russians" (belarus) croats are called "white croats".


And this could easily explain the resemblances between scandinavian languages and south slavic languages,refering to how the definite article is used in romanian (guess in romanian is influence from south slavic),bulgarian,serbo-croatian and scandinavian,being post-fixed.

But I think these slavs only brought leading class and language not majority of DNA since people in Balkans and Romania are too dark haired and have too high percentage of brown and dark brown eyes to be from there (Vistula region).
Because I know people from there are mostly blue eyed,being with amongst highest percentages in the world with blue eyes - know that belarussians have mostly blue eyes,at over 50% percentage or even more.
And this could also explain the significant percentage of I1 in serbians and croats and so on.
I remember to saw they also found N1C1 in serbians,about 3% so if that is coming to be true,than is clear.

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

But I think these slavs only brought leading class and language not majority of DNA since people in Balkans and Romania are too dark haired and have too high percentage of brown and dark brown eyes to be from there (Vistula region).
Because I know people from there are mostly blue eyed,being with amongst highest percentages in the world with blue eyes - know that belarussians have mostly blue eyes,at over 50% percentage or even more.
And this could also explain the significant percentage of I1 in serbians and croats and so on.
I remember to saw they also found N1C1 in serbians,about 3% so if that is coming to be true,than is clear.

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OMG How long we will talk about dark and light hair/eyes? Did you know that southern Russians are much more dark than those who are living close to Baltic region? Did you know that people from Spain is much darker than people from Irleand? Both of them are mainly R1b but southern people are darker because they are living in a warm climate with much of sunny days and they are mixed with population which lived there before. Their organism contains more melanine and thats the reason for that.


The highest percentage of blue-eyed people is in Estonia. 40% of Estonians belongs to N1c1 which is close related with other N-s whose mainly looks like mongoloids. Which conclusions we can derive from that?

I understand that your obsession is to prove that I2a1-Din aren't slavic population. But, your arguments are too pale for now.

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Originally Posted by Gosh

OMG How long we will talk about dark and light hair/eyes? Did you know that southern Russians are much more dark than those who are living close to Baltic region? Did you know that people from Spain is much darker than people from Irleand? Both of them are mainly R1b but southern people are darker because they are living in a warm climate with much of sunny days and they are mixed with population which lived there before. Their organism contains more melanine and thats the reason for that.


The highest percentage of blue-eyed people is in Estonia. 40% of Estonians belongs to N1c1 which is close related with other N-s whose mainly looks like mongoloids. Which conclusions we can derive from that?

I understand that your obsession is to prove that I2a1-Din aren't slavic population. But, your arguments are too pale for now.

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I do not understand why a certain paternal haplogrup clade should be linked with only a population.
Beside,I do not really believe that such a thing as "slavs" because as you take how people look in Bulgaria,they look different from Serbia and Montenegro and very different from those in Rusia,very diferent from those in Belarus or Czechoslovakia and so on.
To tell R1A1 is slavic is again wrong,because is known there are many clades and some clades are present in different populations.
There is the group of slavic languages,as it is the group of romance languages,but take for example romanians,which are speaking a romance language and people from Spain which are speaking again another romance language,they are very far away on both Y DNA and mt DNA,but take romanians who are speaking a romance language and bulgarians who are speaking a slavic language they are very close on both Y DNA and mt DNA.
So I am saying you can not link a haplogrup clade as general as I2-a din is with only a group of populations speaking languages from same branch of indo-european languages.
I think we should not look with fanatism Y DNA tests.
There is very possibile that Romania and Bulgaria have also some celtic inheritance at least on maternal line,because as barbarian thraco-dacians were I doubt they exterminated celts that were living amongst them and so on.
Till around 1000 or even later,1400-1500 it was a troubled period of Europe,till when ethnicities formed but previous they mixed a lot.
What it exist till now is few data from Y DNA and mt DNA tests,which were not made always with sub-clades and so on.
What maps are here are based on generalisations,because this is how this science is till now,only at begining.

Besides nations/ethicities are based on common language and common customs and closed life style rather that on common genetic ancestry.
Take 2 twins,raise one in Italy and learn him as maternal language italian and raise another one in Germany and learn him as maternal language german.
Let them live until they make 18 years old.
They will look very close,as phisical but they will be of different ethnicities and of very different characters.

So actually no one tryed to associate a Y DNA haplogrup with romance speaking populations,but some wanted to associate some haplogrup/haplogrups with slavic speaking people.

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

I do not understand why a certain paternal haplogrup clade should be linked with only a population.
Beside,I do not really believe that such a thing as "slavs" because as you take how people look in Bulgaria,they look different from Serbia and Montenegro and very different from those in Rusia,very diferent from those in Belarus or Czechoslovakia and so on.
To tell R1A1 is slavic is again wrong,because is known there are many clades and some clades are present in different populations.
There is the group of slavic languages,as it is the group of romance languages,but take for example romanians,which are speaking a romance language and people from Spain which are speaking again another romance language,they are very far away on both Y DNA and mt DNA,but take romanians who are speaking a romance language and bulgarians who are speaking a slavic language they are very close on both Y DNA and mt DNA.
So I am saying you can not link a haplogrup clade as general as I2-a din is with only a group of populations speaking languages from same branch of indo-european languages.
I think we should not look with fanatism Y DNA tests.
There is very possibile that Romania and Bulgaria have also some celtic inheritance at least on maternal line,because as barbarian thraco-dacians were I doubt they exterminated celts that were living amongst them and so on.
Till around 1000 or even later,1400-1500 it was a troubled period of Europe,till when ethnicities formed but previous they mixed a lot.
What it exist till now is few data from Y DNA and mt DNA tests,which were not made always with sub-clades and so on.
What maps are here are based on generalisations,because this is how this science is till now,only at begining.

Besides nations/ethicities are based on common language and common customs and closed life style rather that on common genetic ancestry.
Take 2 twins,raise one in Italy and learn him as maternal language italian and raise another one in Germany and learn him as maternal language german.
Let them live until they make 18 years old.
They will look very close,as phisical but they will be of different ethnicities and of very different characters.

So actually no one tryed to associate a Y DNA haplogrup with romance speaking populations,but some wanted to associate some haplogrup/haplogrups with slavic speaking people.

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i basically agree with you, the slavic people are slavs due to language and not genetics. The term slavic means the same to me as the terms of, baltic, germanic, iberic, nordic, latin, celtic etc etc all linguistic based.

Do we have ANY modern nation which is different from that what you talk about? EVERY nation/people is just that due to language and culture.

When we observe a quite young haplogroup as I2a1b, we can only see that its dispersion started from a geographically small place and that period fits to the period of Slavic expansion.

Practically, there's no I2a-Din outside the region of Slavic expansion. Even more, space/time components fits 100%.

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Originally Posted by Gosh

Do we have ANY modern nation which is different from that what you talk about? EVERY nation/people is just that due to language and culture.

When we observe a quite young haplogroup as I2a1b, we can only see that its dispersion started from a geographically small place and that period fits to the period of Slavic expansion.

Practically, there's no I2a-Din outside the region of Slavic expansion. Even more, space/time components fits 100%.

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How about Austria?

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Originally Posted by Gosh

Do we have ANY modern nation which is different from that what you talk about? EVERY nation/people is just that due to language and culture.

When we observe a quite young haplogroup as I2a1b, we can only see that its dispersion started from a geographically small place and that period fits to the period of Slavic expansion.

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Exactly, this. Young, recently expanded haplogroups tend to fit better with more recent population expansions, as I2a-Din does for Slavs, much of I1 does for Germanic peoples, I2a2b does for Celtic peoples, etc. The criticism that haplogroups tend to span multiple historical groups holds much better for haplogroups with expansions that significantly predate history. In terms of I subclades, think I2a2a, I2a1a, etc.

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Originally Posted by Gosh

Practically, there's no I2a-Din outside the region of Slavic expansion. Even more, space/time components fits 100%.

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For the most part I agree, although I find the case of Moldova interesting in particular, and I'm interested in how you resolve the apparently high frequency and diversity of I2a-Din-N there. It doesn't seem as clear cut as the I2a-Din-S expansion on the Balkans.

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

How about Austria?

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Carantania

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

How about Austria?

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What do you want to say with Austria?

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Originally Posted by sparkey

For the most part I agree, although I find the case of Moldova interesting in particular, and I'm interested in how you resolve the apparently high frequency and diversity of I2a-Din-N there. It doesn't seem as clear cut as the I2a-Din-S expansion on the Balkans.

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Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion. There's a very interesting Turkic ethnic group in Moldova- Gagauzes http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-...=11798&rog3=MD

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According to some theories the Gagauz people descend from the Seljuq Turks that settled in Dobruja, or from Pechenegs, Uz (Oghuz) and Cuman (Kipchak) people that followed the Anatolian Seljuq Sultan Izzeddin Keykavus II (1236–1276). More specifically, one clan of Oghuz Turks migrated to the Balkans during the inter-tribal conflicts with other Turks.

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Well... we know now that we don't have I's outside Europe. That means only one thing- 30% of I2a1-Din-N in Gagauzi people didn't come with Pecheneges but they are assimilated there.

It is a similar situation like with Hungarian nation today. More than 50% Hungarians belongs to R1a/I2a as their Slavic neighbors. Probability that these I2a-Din came together with Atilla from Asia is lower than 0.001% On the other hand, we have Bulgarians who remained their Slavic language but they adopted name which isn't Slavic by origin. That I2-Din-N could easily belong to the (today's) Bulgarian tribes which lived there up to arriving of Bulgarians from today's Russia.

South Slavs (Din-S) obviously had a "baby boom" in the past. I2a-Din-S wasn't so numerous in the period when they arrived in Balkans. Even more, that Din-S is the same for today's Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats.

It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

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Originally Posted by Gosh

Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion. There's a very interesting Turkic ethnic group in Moldova- Gagauzes http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-...=11798&rog3=MD



Well... we know now that we don't have I's outside Europe. That means only one thing- 30% of I2a1-Din-N in Gagauzi people didn't come with Pecheneges but they are assimilated there.

It is a similar situation like with Hungarian nation today. More than 50% Hungarians belongs to R1a/I2a as their Slavic neighbors. Probability that these I2a-Din came together with Atilla from Asia is lower than 0.001% On the other hand, we have Bulgarians who remained their Slavic language but they adopted name which isn't Slavic by origin. That I2-Din-N could easily belong to the (today's) Bulgarian tribes which lived there up to arriving of Bulgarians from today's Russia.

South Slavs (Din-S) obviously had a "baby boom" in the past. I2a-Din-S wasn't so numerous in the period when they arrived in Balkans. Even more, that Din-S is the same for today's Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats.

It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

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Gagauz people is a strange case, they Speak Turkic but Historical facts prove them to Be minor Asians Half Greek, NON Turks
Ι mean they consider minor Asian population who change language and not religion,
I do not know about their genetics, but I know their History,
remember that Gagauz live in Greece also, Γκαγκαουζοι-Γκαγκαβουζοι

In Moldova are the ones who followed the Russian Army, while their settlements exist also in Pazardix and Yambol Bulgaria, Beroia Serres Euros river in Greece from 1383 ED (AD),
According to a Gagauz Historian Κραχτογλου Krahtoglu (p 1878) they exist from 1383 in balkans
According to some others they were Greeks-Balkanic who change language,
the term Gagavuz seems to be first mention after the 4rth Crusade,

their inner name is Hiristiani (Christians!!!!)

Until 1957 Gagauz use the Greek alphabet instead of Turkish -Arabian-Semitic alphabets

link
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/gagauz.htm

Gagavuz fall to Ottoman Turks at 1398 ,

their primary land is considered the land south of the Bulgars from Haskovo (white village in Gagauz lang, to Varna and Adrianopolis, until Nestos river and some villages in Makedonia)

I can give Historical links but mostly in Greek language,

Gagavuz people according the late Greek authors-searchers are considered a mix of local population which mixed with a minority of minor Asia population,
Meaning that the original Gagavuz where minor Asians non Turkish small quantity-percentance, who mixed with local population that was forced to choose among changing religion or language, to a bigger percentance.

Greek historians are mentioning them from 1243,
as the people of the mother of the Sultan (older local population, before entrance of Seljuks)

the case of Turkish population that was Christianized is simply a joke, cause it was easy to accept Islam in 1400 AD but not the other.

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Originally Posted by Gosh

Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion. There's a very interesting Turkic ethnic group in Moldova- Gagauzes http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-...=11798&rog3=MD



Well... we know now that we don't have I's outside Europe. That means only one thing- 30% of I2a1-Din-N in Gagauzi people didn't come with Pecheneges but they are assimilated there.

It is a similar situation like with Hungarian nation today. More than 50% Hungarians belongs to R1a/I2a as their Slavic neighbors. Probability that these I2a-Din came together with Atilla from Asia is lower than 0.001% On the other hand, we have Bulgarians who remained their Slavic language but they adopted name which isn't Slavic by origin. That I2-Din-N could easily belong to the (today's) Bulgarian tribes which lived there up to arriving of Bulgarians from today's Russia.

South Slavs (Din-S) obviously had a "baby boom" in the past. I2a-Din-S wasn't so numerous in the period when they arrived in Balkans. Even more, that Din-S is the same for today's Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats.

It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

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hmm, not so many "normal" people here ........... !!?

in regards to hungarians , and voyvodina area, is it not in majority based on avars and magyars with a bit of hunnic?

I assume you favour the KN situation that I2-Din came from the ukraine marshes and then the balkans was only J2 and E1b and not the scenario of the goths bringing it from the vistula area

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Originally Posted by Gosh

Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

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Thanks, that's what I try to do. Your analyses have also been very good so far.

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Originally Posted by Gosh

If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion.

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Is that true? I'm thinking that with the age of I2a-Din-N, it's possible to find an earlier expansion. Not, like, the Neolithic, but a movement of peoples that narrowly predates the Roman Empire. For example, do you think we can totally rule out the Dacians as a source for some of the Moldovan I2a-Din-N? It seems like it could have moved around a little before it got absorbed into the Slavic population, and expanded with them. Personally, I'm leaning against this interpretation, because I think it's more likely that a small,
"absorbable" population would be something outside the bounds of a more established group, like the Dacians. But it still seems like a possibility to me.

I agree, though, that Turkic and Hunnic peoples have no evidence whatsoever of being the source of I2a-Din anywhere. So that narrows the field, but I'm not sure yet that it narrows it down to the Slavs exclusively, even though it's fairly clear that in later migrations, I2a-Din and Slavic peoples would be strongly linked.

(Disclaimer: To be clear, the above is exclusively about Moldova and its immediate surroundings. I still strongly favor a Slavic introduction of I2a-Din to the Balkans.)

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Originally Posted by Gosh

It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

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This proposed migration fits all the best analyses I've seen, so I'm inclined to agree.

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Originally Posted by sparkey

Thanks, that's what I try to do. Your analyses have also been very good so far.



Is that true? I'm thinking that with the age of I2a-Din-N, it's possible to find an earlier expansion. Not, like, the Neolithic, but a movement of peoples that narrowly predates the Roman Empire. For example, do you think we can totally rule out the Dacians as a source for some of the Moldovan I2a-Din-N? It seems like it could have moved around a little before it got absorbed into the Slavic population, and expanded with them. Personally, I'm leaning against this interpretation, because I think it's more likely that a small,
"absorbable" population would be something outside the bounds of a more established group, like the Dacians. But it still seems like a possibility to me.

I agree, though, that Turkic and Hunnic peoples have no evidence whatsoever of being the source of I2a-Din anywhere. So that narrows the field, but I'm not sure yet that it narrows it down to the Slavs exclusively, even though it's fairly clear that in later migrations, I2a-Din and Slavic peoples would be strongly linked.

(Disclaimer: To be clear, the above is exclusively about Moldova and its immediate surroundings. I still strongly favor a Slavic introduction of I2a-Din to the Balkans.)



This proposed migration fits all the best analyses I've seen, so I'm inclined to agree.

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your comments seem very unexacting, confusing in reference to slavic, what do you mean?. the slavic language did not enter the balkans as per historians until the 6th century AD.
OR do you mean a people brought this I2a-DIn who later became slavic due to learning the slavic tongue.

It would be as confusing as say.....the nordic invaded England in their longships,

The earliest historian for the balkans geography and peoples was Scylax who wrote about the tribes and languages of the balkans in 490BC, he does not mention anything about slavic.

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Is that true? I'm thinking that with the age of I2a-Din-N, it's possible to find an earlier expansion. Not, like, the Neolithic, but a movement of peoples that narrowly predates the Roman Empire. For example, do you think we can totally rule out the Dacians as a source for some of the Moldovan I2a-Din-N? It seems like it could have moved around a little before it got absorbed into the Slavic population, and expanded with them. Personally, I'm leaning against this interpretation, because I think it's more likely that a small,
"absorbable" population would be something outside the bounds of a more established group, like the Dacians. But it still seems like a possibility to me.

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well... nobody can know for sure what happened in the past. The only way would be to cluster Moldavian I2a-Din and compare them with the rest of Slavic I2a-Din. We need some time for that (more DNA results) . I only can say that early today's Bulgarians (so called, union of seven Slavic tribes) lived in that region.
Of course, it is quite possible that some early bearer of I2a-Din "escaped" from the "Slavic environment" and started to live with another tribes. But, if we find that Moldavian I2a-Din are in the same cluster as those in Bulgarians, everything would be clear.

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I agree, though, that Turkic and Hunnic peoples have no evidence whatsoever of being the source of I2a-Din anywhere. So that narrows the field, but I'm not sure yet that it narrows it down to the Slavs exclusively, even though it's fairly clear that in later migrations, I2a-Din and Slavic peoples would be strongly linked.

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I dunno, to be honest. According to KN motherland of I2a-Din is in the region of Slavic motherland. Distribution of this haplogroup is again closely related with Slavic migrations. We also have significant amounts of I2a's in non-Slavic populations like Greeks, Romanians, Albanians, Hungarians, Germans. But, all of them were under Slavic influence in some period of time.

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Originally Posted by Yetos

Gagauz people is a strange case, they Speak Turkic but Historical facts prove them to Be minor Asians Half Greek, NON Turks

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Well... I'll say a big truth now... Modern Turks are not genuine Turks which conquered Asia Minor. Highest percent of them belonged to the people who lived there before Turkish arrival. They were conquered and assimilated.

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Originally Posted by Yetos

Ι mean they consider minor Asian population who change language and not religion,
I do not know about their genetics, but I know their History,
remember that Gagauz live in Greece also, Γκαγκαουζοι-Γκαγκαβουζοι

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It is a bit suspicious. Turkic language came into Asia Minor with Oguz's tribe. When they came, they were Muslims already. That means that they couldn't preserve Christianity and receive only Turkic language.

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Originally Posted by Gosh

Well... I'll say a big truth now... Modern Turks are not genuine Turks which conquered Asia Minor. Highest percent of them belonged to the people who lived there before Turkish arrival. They were conquered and assimilated.



It is a bit suspicious. Turkic language came into Asia Minor with Oguz's tribe. When they came, they were Muslims already. That means that they couldn't preserve Christianity and receive only Turkic language.

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Nope according the laws of Islam non muslims should pay taxes to save their necks,
Turks always gave an alternate solution, they force people to change one of their older identity,
In order not to pay 'save head' Tax people should either change language or religion,
Byzantines and Greeks choose to change language and keep religion that why in 1923 and exchange of population there were hundreds of Greeks who did not even speak Greek, only few prays and religious words,

on the other hand in Balkans All population change religion, that is why Bosnia and Albania and Pomaks speak their languages today, but kept their languages.

a good example are the Kappadokian Greeks the Zeibek Greeks etc most of them re-learn the Greek language after 1923,

yet Gagavuz are not Seljuks but the people of the mother of the Sultan who was Byzantine Christian,
Besides primary Balkanic homeland of Gagavuz is next to Adrianoupolis Turkish Edirne which was the Turkish capital for many decades, they should change either religion either language, as the common Turkish demands,

majority of Gagavuz are considered Balcanic who have South Thracian culture (modern) but the terminology is from minor Asian Gagavuz who moved from the city of Ikonio.

the think that you should see as 'suspicious' is why Gagavuz used Greek alphabet until 1957 when USSR forbid them so. and not Cyrillic or Turkish -Arabian if they were Turks

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Originally Posted by zanipolo

your comments seem very unexacting, confusing in reference to slavic, what do you mean?. the slavic language did not enter the balkans as per historians until the 6th century AD.
OR do you mean a people brought this I2a-DIn who later became slavic due to learning the slavic tongue.

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You're getting at what I mean more with the first interpretation. I think that the folks who brought I2a-Din to the Balkans spoke Slavic language, and migrated in the 1st millennium CE. And I was saying, that also seems likely for the earliest I2a-Din in Moldova, or at least the bulk of it, but that I'm less sure about that case.

I think that the assimilation into Slavic culture happened somewhere other than these two places, and before it spread to these two places, probably in Ukraine. I guess Belarus and some other places are possibilities as well.

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Originally Posted by zanipolo

It would be as confusing as say.....the nordic invaded England in their longships,

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How is that confusing? I also have a rough idea of what haplogroups Anglo-Saxons and Vikings are likely to have brought to England.

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You're getting at what I mean more with the first interpretation. I think that the folks who brought I2a-Din to the Balkans spoke Slavic language, and migrated in the 1st millennium CE. And I was saying, that also seems likely for the earliest I2a-Din in Moldova, or at least the bulk of it, but that I'm less sure about that case.

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Sparky maybe I2a-Din was already in the Balkans, but not in the Western half of it. I don't see how a large number of haplogroup I could have survived in the plains of Eastern Europe, the Indo-Europeans would have completely massacred them. I mean if you look at haplogroup maps, the only places where Haplogroup I survived was isolated places like Scandinavia and locations where they were close enough to near eastern farmers to recieve farming technology. Imagine a scenario where a strong haplogroup I population lived in modern Romania, and as Slavs came along they brought a large number of their population into the West balkans. By the time that they would have arrived, most of the people they brough along would have been Slavicized.

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Originally Posted by Templar

Sparky maybe I2a-Din was already in the Balkans, but not in the Western half of it. I don't see how a large number of haplogroup I could have survived in the plains of Eastern Europe, the Indo-Europeans would have completely massacred them. I mean if you look at haplogroup maps, the only places where Haplogroup I survived was isolated places like Scandinavia and locations where they were close enough to near eastern farmers to recieve farming technology. Imagine a scenario where a strong haplogroup I population lived in modern Romania, and as Slavs came along they brought a large number of their population into the West balkans. By the time that they would have arrived, most of the people they brough along would have been Slavicized.

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Actually, what you describe isn't wholly incompatible with what I have been thinking. If we go back to the origin of the Slavs, what were they? They must have been a branch of the Balto-Slavs, and since we know that the Balts did not end up with I2a-Din, the best assumption must be that the Slavs absorbed some other population toward the beginning of their origin. Their subsequent migrations could have expanded their absorbed genetics at the expense of those they share with the Balts.

Was the Haplogroup I2-heavy population they absorbed in Romania? That's certainly a possibility, although I have been inclined to imagine the absorption event happening farther north for a couple of reasons. For one, Romania was a core Dacian area, and it's a bit easier to explain the early Slavs absorbing an unknown northern tribe than absorbing the Dacians. Secondly, if we consider the alternate possibility (closer to what you describe) of the expanding Slavs absorbing an I2-heavy population as they expanded, we're unable to explain why East Slavs also have I2a-Din... again placing this mystery I2a-Din source population farther north, where the Slavs are thought to have originated (Ukraine?).

As for where Haplogroup I "survived," I don't think that modern frequency distributions tell us much. I have explored where Haplogroup I seems to have ended up mostly following the Neolithic, and it doesn't match modern frequency distributions very well. Notably, I2a-Din has always seemed to be an outlier, especially considering that its closest cousins are quite western. One pattern I notice is that they did not seem to have survived in only "isolated places"... rather, other than a few oddities like North Britain, the Pyrenees, and the Alps, they seem to have survived mainly in hospitable places like the Rhine and the Atlantic Fringe. Most modern I-heavy "isolated" areas seem to have gotten their I from later expansions (Sardinia, Scandinavia, Dinaric Alps...).

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Was the Haplogroup I2-heavy population they absorbed in Romania? That's certainly a possibility, although I have been inclined to imagine the absorption event happening farther north for a couple of reasons.

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Well I heard there was a lot of I2 diversity there, and it also seems like a good location for the existence of a mixed-paleolithic-near eastern population.

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Secondly, if we consider the alternate possibility (closer to what you describe) of the expanding Slavs absorbing an I2-heavy population as they expanded, we're unable to explain why East Slavs also have I2a-Din... again placing this mystery I2a-Din source population farther north, where the Slavs are thought to have originated (Ukraine?).

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Could back migrations explain it? Or perhaps when Slavs conquered Romania, they took a percentage of the population off as slaves which they then sold to other Slavs. If Romania was heavily populated at the time, the slaves could have left a big imprint Y-haplogroup-wise on all Slavic populations.