How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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07-01-12, 20:49
MOESAN

Quote:

Originally Posted by how yes no 2

so now we do not speak of Teutonic knights, but about Saxon craftman...sure there were settlements of Saxon in Transylvania, but neither Targu Neamt, nor Piatra Neamt are in Transylvania (and btw. Transylvania is by far biggest chunk of Romania)compare mapshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neamțhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Târgu_N...Transylvaniain fact link that you gave provide three maps showing: initial Saxon settlements, remaints in 17th century, and population of counties by nationality in year 1930. Neither of those map have any Saxon or German people in Naemt county

about these 'Saxons' workmen there has been a not too old survey about those who claim saxon origins in Romania - this survey concluded that there DNA was close to Germans but also too Belgian people where Y-I2a1b is not very common (even if a litle more common in Bavaria) - nothing to do with the percentages of Pietra Neamt(ç) -
answering to other people on the topic I say that if we speak about late Goths we are no more speaking about genuine previous germanic people and with so a mixture of winners-loosers I believe it 'll not be too easy to link a precise tribe to a precise ancient HG - furthermore, the lineages of Y-I2a was ancient enough yet around the Carpathians highlands, and could concern Illyrians and other I-E(ized) peoples of the region as well - to attribute a well-defined precise cultural identity to the first bearers of Y-I2 'DIn' can be very hard, i believe...
07-01-12, 21:20
razor

One thing you guys need always to remember is that I2-Din did not exist before c. 300 BCE (when its first Patriarch was born). And other I2's could not be "converted" to it: they had to be genetically produced. So a lot of theories are just plain impossible if Nordvedt and Verenich are right (and so far no one has proven them not to be.) But since Slavs cannot be demonstrated to have existed as a definable cultural and linguistic community before the very beginning of our era, there is a window of opportunity here. The first I2-Din would not have been a Slav. Nor his daddy. The closest cousins today are West Europeans. Which may or may not be significant. I think it is, but I don't yet quite know how in terms of recorded history and archaeology.
07-01-12, 23:15
MOESAN

Quote:

Originally Posted by razor

One thing you guys need always to remember is that I2-Din did not exist before c. 300 BCE (when its first Patriarch was born). And other I2's could not be "converted" to it: they had to be genetically produced. So a lot of theories are just plain impossible if Nordvedt and Verenich are right (and so far no one has proven them not to be.) But since Slavs cannot be demonstrated to have existed as a definable cultural and linguistic community before the very beginning of our era, there is a window of opportunity here. The first I2-Din would not have been a Slav. Nor his daddy. The closest cousins today are West Europeans. Which may or may not be significant. I think it is, but I don't yet quite know how in terms of recorded history and archaeology.

your are right in some way (even if I find astonishing enough trusting into so precise results in STRs calculations in a so absolute way)
but: the problems are diverse: and arguments can come to confirm or infirm theories
Slavs are older than their historical coming in sight- I agree it says nothing about their carrying of Y-I2a1b 'Din' neither for nor against (in my mind they was Y-R1a for the most and can have known their final cristallization as Slavs including a lot of Y-I2a1 of previous different origin but living in S-Ukraina
- the presence (a scarce one) of 'cousins' in Western Europe don't prove clearly anything - the great age of their ancestor don't prove they are a long time ago in the regions of their present location (Western Europe) -
- different things: the present day localisation of a HG 'X' (more worth than a HT) >< the place of origin of this HG 'X' >< the population where ONE OF THE carriers of an upstream HG 'Y' underwent the mutation that defines the HG 'X'>< the localisation of this last population - when trying to find out the origin and the process of concretion of a culture we can't exclude the problem of the 'mother' population or 'mother' populationS (HG 'Y')...

said this, which and where is the closest upstream HG (SNP) of I2a1b-'Din' (because I'm not sure to be up-to-date about the very last results about that

thank beforehand
08-01-12, 00:14
razor

Nordvedt has the relevant SNP's here: http://knordvedt.home.bresnan.net Have a look at his haplogroup I tree.
08-01-12, 00:38
razor

http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net

Sorry for the typo/
08-01-12, 14:52
how yes no 2

I2a-din southhttp://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymaphotspots in south Poland and north Poland match exactly locations of Scirii on this map showing situation at 200 ADhttp://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...rope-200ad.jpghttp://historyatlas.wikia.com/wiki/Europe
08-01-12, 19:26
zanipolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by how yes no 2

I2a-din southhttp://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymaphotspots in south Poland and north Poland match exactly locations of Scirii on this map showing situation at 200 ADhttp://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...rope-200ad.jpghttp://historyatlas.wikia.com/wiki/Europe

i went into the link, where exactly does it say this as half the links in the link do not work as well as no mention of scirii
08-01-12, 20:52
razor

No one really knows where the Sciri were between the time of Pliny's informant (Pliny's work came out in ca. 75 CE we don't know when his informant wrote-- it could have been considerably earlier) and the 5th century. The map is just an arbitrary guess.
08-03-12, 12:00
zanipolo

some interesting notes on this link below and also the internal links. this is for I2a and others

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...23108.full.pdf

While reading some notes in regards to KN and the I2a-din, it was noted by others that KN states that I2a-din originated south of Masuria ( mazoria) ( Poland) and migrated to the balkans, some say taken by Illyrians as there original home was central europe ( the area of hungary, Poland )...........I am speaking of the bronze age.

I know this has been brought up about 20 years ago by kruhe and earlier Kalinnos, but with latest testing, I can see that it might fit the scenario very well. Even if we take Tery Robb scenario it still fits,

The question is where the illyrians neighbours of the east-germanics or where they also germanic ( before germanic was born ).

some later notes on celtic and germanic union has Illyrian words
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ermany&f=false

Needs more study on the matter
08-03-12, 14:24
Taranis

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanipolo

some later notes on celtic and germanic union has Illyrian words
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ermany&f=false

Needs more study on the matter

This is incorrect. The Celtic word for "iron" is not derived from the PIE word for 'metal' (Latin "aes", Sanskrit "ayas"), but from the PIE word for "blood": Latin "aser", Classical Greek "eas", Armenian "aryun" (արյուն), Hittite "esHar", Latvian "asins", Tocharian "ysar" - all which mean blood. The Celtic name almost certainly derives from the color of iron ore. In Antiquity, the Greeks too had the idea too to name iron ore "blood colored" (the Greek word for blood is "haima"), which is where the term "hematite" (the scientific name of iron ore) comes from.

Also, why should the Hallstatt Culture have been Illyrian, as the book suggests? There is absolutely no evidence of Illyrian place names from the former Hallstatt areas in Antiquity.
08-03-12, 15:10
Diurpaneus

some interesting maps here

eliznik/East Europe/History/pre-history

http://www.eliznik.co.uk/
08-03-12, 18:30
sparkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanipolo

some interesting notes on this link below and also the internal links. this is for I2a and others

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...23108.full.pdf

The Treilles samples? Those were I2a1a, of course, which is quite distinct from I2a-Din.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanipolo

While reading some notes in regards to KN and the I2a-din, it was noted by others that KN states that I2a-din originated south of Masuria ( mazoria) ( Poland) and migrated to the balkans, some say taken by Illyrians as there original home was central europe ( the area of hungary, Poland )...........I am speaking of the bronze age.

You're conflating what KN says with what "others" say, and bringing in something (a Bronze Age expansion) that is chronologically well before what KN suggests is possible. Also, a "South of Poland" origin makes a lot of sense for I2a-Din-S, but probably not as much sense for I2a-Din as a whole, per Verenich's more precise analysis, which places it farther east.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanipolo

Needs more study on the matter

As always. :good_job:
09-03-12, 05:06
pipinnacanus

Ken must be take with great caution for his many mistake.

He has before some SNP placed Ht/STR into 'clade' he 'discover' only to later with new SNP find these are not in any such clade but are different SNP.
Also, Ken makes many claims about predict the age of these clades, and these have fallen to the real science the same way his non-clade falled to science advance.

Only were Ken is useful in truth at all is to mimic and repeat fact about mostly the newest I1 SNP because he make himself informed even before these are released. This is not Ken discovered, but only repeated for the gain of others however.

The claims that Ken discover you cannot often have a long wait until they are shown faulty.
09-03-12, 05:15
pipinnacanus

Quote:

Originally Posted by how yes no 2

this is perfectly aligned with my assumption that Germanic Scirii were also I2a-Din people...last mentions of Scirii are in teritory of Romania....

You must answer first what you mean by germanic. There is no question it is proven by ancient DNA that I2 is found in ancient sample in what is today modern 'germany'.

The problem is, there is I2 found in EVERY culture of europe, slav/germ/celt/med.

I2 is not like many other Hg that is some way restrict to one arriving land-conquering people, and its samples in Europe are so old (and not joined by ANY I1) that they may predate of arriving slav/germ/celt/med cultures.

I see very clearly that not one culture or ethnic of europe can claim I2 because it is remnants of a aboriginy that live in europe before these modern culture come in or maybe even exist. Some place like in Balkans they are sheiled by mountain and terrain and more manage to survive, but in places with less protective land or no mountain the I2 aboriginy are mistreate and kill by new cultures who come on to rule over the I2 left in europe.

try to place I2 as being the germ/celt/slav/med is not going to work because they are subjected to all these peoples, and today they are found to some degree among the population of all these peoples they manage to adopt into.
09-03-12, 07:54
zanipolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkey

The Treilles samples? Those were I2a1a, of course, which is quite distinct from I2a-Din.

You're conflating what KN says with what "others" say, and bringing in something (a Bronze Age expansion) that is chronologically well before what KN suggests is possible. Also, a "South of Poland" origin makes a lot of sense for I2a-Din-S, but probably not as much sense for I2a-Din as a whole, per Verenich's more precise analysis, which places it farther east.

As always. :good_job:

I2a -Din is older than germanic or slavic its older than the Unitice culture in which the illyrians where in the centre of.
Historians tells us, that I2a-din is found south of the Galindian people , these people are west-baltic people of modern masuria.
History also says that the first recorded name of illyrian by Greek historians happened only in the 4th century BC.
History also tells us that Illyrians never came from the east (be it the steppes or anatolia)
History tells us that Alexander the great father, Philip was the first to confront the illyrians.

The only conclusion is that I2a-din came from slovak, hungarian and southern polish area and was brought into the balkans by the Illyrians. prior to this the balkans had E1b in the south and J2 in the north ( I am speaking of the major Haplotype).

What year was I2a - 13000 years BC or earlier?

Q- when did these Sythians and Sarmatians become slavic?
09-03-12, 07:58
zanipolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipinnacanus

You must answer first what you mean by germanic. There is no question it is proven by ancient DNA that I2 is found in ancient sample in what is today modern 'germany'.

The problem is, there is I2 found in EVERY culture of europe, slav/germ/celt/med.

I2 is not like many other Hg that is some way restrict to one arriving land-conquering people, and its samples in Europe are so old (and not joined by ANY I1) that they may predate of arriving slav/germ/celt/med cultures.

I see very clearly that not one culture or ethnic of europe can claim I2 because it is remnants of a aboriginy that live in europe before these modern culture come in or maybe even exist. Some place like in Balkans they are sheiled by mountain and terrain and more manage to survive, but in places with less protective land or no mountain the I2 aboriginy are mistreate and kill by new cultures who come on to rule over the I2 left in europe.

try to place I2 as being the germ/celt/slav/med is not going to work because they are subjected to all these peoples, and today they are found to some degree among the population of all these peoples they manage to adopt into.

I agree that germanic people arrived where they where after the I2a-din arrived in the balkans
09-03-12, 17:58
Goga

Remember that After the Two World Wars Germany lost a lot historic Germanic territory in the east! Poland was located much more to the east!
09-03-12, 18:32
sparkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipinnacanus

The problem is, there is I2 found in EVERY culture of europe, slav/germ/celt/med.

We're not talking about I2, we're talking about its subclade, I2a-Din (I2a1b1a in Nordtvedt's hierarchy).
09-03-12, 18:44
sparkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanipolo

I2a -Din is older than germanic or slavic its older than the Unitice culture in which the illyrians where in the centre of.

Maybe for Slavic, but I think that proto-Germanic is likely older or comparable and Unetice Culture is certainly older. Remember that the estimate for its TMRCA is ~2500 YBP, and even if you think that's too young an estimate, you have to acknowledge that it's a young subclade as far as I2 subclades go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanipolo

Historians tells us, that I2a-din is found south of the Galindian people , these people are west-baltic people of modern masuria.

Historians don't tell us anything about I2a-Din, what are you talking about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanipolo

The only conclusion is that I2a-din came from slovak, hungarian and southern polish area and was brought into the balkans by the Illyrians. prior to this the balkans had E1b in the south and J2 in the north ( I am speaking of the major Haplotype).

Actually, this theory works decently given the diversity, as long as we assume that Nordtvedt's estimates are too young, considering that we're really just talking about I2a-Din-S when we talk about coming down from Poland and nearby. But I don't see a reason to assume an Illyrian migration in the same way that we have a Slavic migration. Why can't they be more ancient in the area, like the Albanians and the Hellenes? In which case, the Illyrians would have been mostly J2, R1b, and E1b themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanipolo

What year was I2a - 13000 years BC or earlier?

I2a is about 21,000 years old. But we're talking about I2a-Din, which is much, much younger.
12-03-12, 15:25
Gosh

Paleolithic continuity 50% :rolleyes2:
14-03-12, 04:26
zanipolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkey

Actually, this theory works decently given the diversity, as long as we assume that Nordtvedt's estimates are too young, considering that we're really just talking about I2a-Din-S when we talk about coming down from Poland and nearby. But I don't see a reason to assume an Illyrian migration in the same way that we have a Slavic migration. Why can't they be more ancient in the area, like the Albanians and the Hellenes? In which case, the Illyrians would have been mostly J2, R1b, and E1b themselves.

.

the illyrians had to have migrated into the balkans because the greek historians only have illyrians recorded from the 4th century BC in their history and also the myceneans had outposts as far as Istria.
Who inhabited these "illyrian" lands in the balkans ?. Maybe dorians, thracians, epirotes in the southern illyrian parts and maybe the Norici , raeti and pannonians ( if there is such a people) in the northern part

I get the feeling that illyrians where either related to the east germanics ( before there was germanic ) or very close cultural neighbours.
14-03-12, 12:37
Yetos

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanipolo

the illyrians had to have migrated into the balkans because the greek historians only have illyrians recorded from the 4th century BC in their history and also the myceneans had outposts as far as Istria.
Who inhabited these "illyrian" lands in the balkans ?. Maybe dorians, thracians, epirotes in the southern illyrian parts and maybe the Norici , raeti and pannonians ( if there is such a people) in the northern part

I get the feeling that illyrians where either related to the east germanics ( before there was germanic ) or very close cultural neighbours.

Interesting Idea, although I share it different,

For me Illyrians was a mix of a kind celts (Illyro-Celts?, balkan-Celts?, Pannoni basin celts?) with Cadmeians, and Albanians-Albocense were a east para-Germanic or para-Slavic (considering the exist of Torbesh which maybe is > 15-20% of population) as you propose it, Getae-Dacian or Thracian for me.
14-03-12, 21:31
Gosh

1 Attachment(s)

Well.... I've found on a forum this map which shows migrations of Serbs from the central Europe to the south. If I understood it correctly, this movement is related with the I2a1 Dinaric South.

Attachment 5530

Who can explain this a little bit more?
14-03-12, 21:43
zanipolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gosh

Well.... I've found on a forum this map which shows migrations of Serbs from the central Europe to the south. If I understood it correctly, this movement is related with the I2a1 Dinaric South.

Attachment 5530

Who can explain this a little bit more?

this refers only to the period after the fall of the roman empire, I am talking about the bronze age which is over 1000 years before the data of the map above
14-03-12, 22:19
sparkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gosh

Well.... I've found on a forum this map which shows migrations of Serbs from the central Europe to the south. If I understood it correctly, this movement is related with the I2a1 Dinaric South.

Attachment 5530

Who can explain this a little bit more?

That map is from a hobbyist at DNA Forums who took whatever proven I2a-Din-S he could find and attempted to fit its distribution to known Slavic migrations (he explicitly called them "Serb" migrations). IIRC, he relies heavily on the young Nordtvedt estimate of its age, and corresponds the origin to an area of peak diversity of I2a-Din-S observed by Verenich. After that, it's just a best-guess fit.

I actually found it to be a quality analysis, on par with Verenich's, although it has a lot of assumptions built into it, and may give an incorrect picture of how precisely we know things about I2a-Din-S at the moment. At least, it shows the coherence of assuming I2a-Din-S to be a relatively young Western (rather than Southern) branch of I2a-Din.
15-03-12, 03:40
mihaitzateo

Well what if I2A dinaric appeared in Carpathians and Dinaric Alps,from a mutation from another I2 ?
I mean Ken Nortvedt is saying that I2A dinaric is pretty young.
I understood that some Y DNA tests found a large variety of I2A dinaric in these two places mentioned above.

"Former I2a2a in the Y2010 tree. I2a1b1 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%). Haplogroup I2a1b1 is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians. There is also a high concentration of I2a2a in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I2a1b1 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I2a1b1 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula."
(according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...-DNA%29#I2a1b1)

I am not agreeing with the part written with italic,those are just supositions,but what is told above with the age of I2A dinaric I think it can be proved scientifically.

Now if you wonder from where the I2 from which I2A dinaric appeared by some mutation is,no ideea,but I doubt is from sarmatians or slavs.
15-03-12, 07:14
zanipolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

Well what if I2A dinaric appeared in Carpathians and Dinaric Alps,from a mutation from another I2 ?
I mean Ken Nortvedt is saying that I2A dinaric is pretty young.
I understood that some Y DNA tests found a large variety of I2A dinaric in these two places mentioned above.

"Former I2a2a in the Y2010 tree. I2a1b1 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%). Haplogroup I2a1b1 is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians. There is also a high concentration of I2a2a in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I2a1b1 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I2a1b1 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula."
(according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...-DNA%29#I2a1b1)

I am not agreeing with the part written with italic,those are just supositions,but what is told above with the age of I2A dinaric I think it can be proved scientifically.

Now if you wonder from where the I2 from which I2A dinaric appeared by some mutation is,no ideea,but I doubt is from sarmatians or slavs.

as per your link, the tested northeast Italians are from trento which to this day is 52% german and 48% italian, it only became italian inside the last 100 yeras. Before this it was tyrolese, which was in ancient times Raeti and eugenai. With this knowledge 12a1b1 would have only occurred in trento area during the germanic migration from eastern germany.
2800 years = 700-800 BC which can include the illyrians, raeti, etruscans but not celtic, venetic, norici or ligurians as archeology has them at certain times which do not fit the scenario.

Still my theory should still hold true and I agree with you it was not a sarmatian migration.

KN did state 9 months ago that one I haplotype ranges from the basques to venice, what would be fascinating is checking where these two I groups intermingled and also the germanic I1. A minestrone of I HG in central Austria
15-03-12, 10:41
Diurpaneus

Quote:

Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

Well what if I2A dinaric appeared in Carpathians and Dinaric Alps,from a mutation from another I2 ?
I mean Ken Nortvedt is saying that I2A dinaric is pretty young.
I understood that some Y DNA tests found a large variety of I2A dinaric in these two places mentioned above.

"Former I2a2a in the Y2010 tree. I2a1b1 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%). Haplogroup I2a1b1 is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians. There is also a high concentration of I2a2a in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I2a1b1 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I2a1b1 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula."
(according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...-DNA%29#I2a1b1)

I am not agreeing with the part written with italic,those are just supositions,but what is told above with the age of I2A dinaric I think it can be proved scientifically.

Now if you wonder from where the I2 from which I2A dinaric appeared by some mutation is,no ideea,but I doubt is from sarmatians or slavs.

I don't think that I2a1b is Slavic or Sarmatian.
If it was slavic baltic people should have this haplogroup.
Sarmatians were great warriors but they were'nt so many.For example in hungarian plains they ruled over a Dacian peasantry(Limigantes)
Various Dacian tribes lived in southern Poland,Slovakia and parts of Ukraine.
Aromuns are isolated Balkanic Romance speakers.Their language don't have Slavic borrowings(unlike Romanian).Even now they don't mix with others.But they have 20-40% I2a.
Albanians also have I2a1b.And they are too an isolated group.
In my opinion I2a1b is Paleo-Balkanic(Thracian/Dacian,Illyrian)
It could come from Catacombe culture and those people were a mix of I2a and R1a.

But i think they also kept R1b(from IE people),J2 and E (from indigenous) as well from Cernavoda-Bolleraz.
In fact professor Alexander Rodewald(the one who made the Thracian Ancient DNA study- bones collected from Getic land) said that the Northern Italians are the closest to those Thracians.
Unlike the Dacians who were mostly Dinarics/Alpines, the Getae were Mediterraneans/Atlantic Mediterraneans also.
I'm not saying Balkanic people are entirely autochtonous,but Paleo-Balkanics had many haplogroups.

http://www.hist-europe.fr/Prehistoir...-europeen.html
15-03-12, 11:02
Yetos

Diurpaneus

an interesting case, which might help us all to understand who were the Slavs,

Anna Komnene in her books names many times the South Slavic population as Scythians, time is about 1100 Ad 500 years after South Slavic invasion-devastation,
if we understand that, then we can explain why in Romania have some Slavic influence, but not from the 500 AD but from earlier Scythia minor at 400 BC about. in fact maybe toponyms ending as -dava are from Scythian and not from Getae which was -ussa.
in fact I believe that Slavs never existed in ancient times with that name, but with the name Scythians, and Slavs are the production of many years connection of Scythians with Finns- Baltics (Sarmates) and Sarmates have nothing in common with Huns-Tatars etc,

The description Herodotus is giving for Sarmates is Baltic population which lived in wooden tents and breed reindeer, description which fits with Suomi-Lappi N1 HG,
while Huno-Bulgars are mentioned as mounted warriors, leather tents and not reindeer breeders,
15-03-12, 13:08
Diurpaneus

Strabo,Cassius Dio and many others says clearly that Getae and Dacians were Thracians not Scythians.
The Romans and especially the Greeks could make the difference between Thracians and Scythians.
There's no -ussa endig opposite to -dava.Cause you have only one place name Sarmizegetusa who could have -ussa ending.Many Dacian towns doesn't have -dava ending.
The dava it's a special type of town because it's a tribal center.
And Scythians don't have something like it.
15-03-12, 15:21
Gosh

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanipolo

this refers only to the period after the fall of the roman empire, I am talking about the bronze age which is over 1000 years before the data of the map above

How we can speak about "1000 years before" if the estimated TMRCA for Dinaric south is about 2000 years?
15-03-12, 15:30
Gosh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yetos

Diurpaneus

an interesting case, which might help us all to understand who were the Slavs,

Anna Komnene in her books names many times the South Slavic population as Scythians, time is about 1100 Ad 500 years after South Slavic invasion-devastation,

Why Byzantine tzar Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos didn't talk about that? I dare to say that he had much better sources and better knowledge about the situation from that time.

BTW your speech about "invasion-devastation" sounds quite in "nazi" manner because Greeks and other nations from that period of time did the same. Moreover, only a part of south Slavs together with Avars invaded that territory.
15-03-12, 15:56
razor

Byzantine historical nomenclature was based on ancient literature, esp. Herodotus. And it wasn't an innovation in the time of Anna Comnena. The 3rd century Greek-scripting historian Deuxippus constantly spoke of the Goths as "Scythians" because they were from the territory of ancient Scythia, even though they had nothing in common with these ancient Scythians. Anna (12th century) also referred to Pechenegs and Cumans as "Scythians"... In fact this Greek oddity was noticed by the Old Kyivan chroniclers. In the Tale of Bygone years (written ca. 1116) Monk Nestor (or his continuator Sylvester( after a lengthy geographical description of the territory and population of the Kyivan Rus state (Slavs, Norse, Balts, Finns et al.) concluded "all these are called 'Great Scythia' by the Greeks". Keep that in mind when speculating about the connection between Slavs and Scythians.
15-03-12, 17:28
sparkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diurpaneus

I don't think that I2a1b is Slavic or Sarmatian.
If it was slavic baltic people should have this haplogroup.

How do you figure? Why can't R1a be the common haplogroup among Balto-Slavs, and I2a1b1a be basically unique to the Slavs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diurpaneus

Aromuns are isolated Balkanic Romance speakers.Their language don't have Slavic borrowings(unlike Romanian).Even now they don't mix with others.But they have 20-40% I2a.

Do we know the subclade or STR diversity of I2a in Aromuns? I know with Greek I2a-Din, it's almost always I2a-Din-N, which I don't discount could have some pre-Slavic connections, as it's the older of the I2a-Din branches (although Slavic incursions into modern Greece did happen, and I consider them a very likely source). But as a whole, even I2a-Din-N is strongly tied to Slavic migrations, as we see with its distribution in places like Belarus and Russia.

Of course, more I2a-Din in the Balkans is I2a-Din-S, which probably has too young an expansion on the Balkans (from the north no less) to be connected to much of anything other than the Slavs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diurpaneus

It could come from Catacombe culture and those people were a mix of I2a and R1a.

I think a Catacombe Culture connection is within range, possibly, but one thing that discounts it is that it appears to have some sort of continuity with Corded Ware Culture. If we accept that, then it's curious how only R1a seems to have expanded with Corded Ware. So, I'm not ready to commit to such an old culture for such a young subclade.
15-03-12, 18:14
mihaitzateo

Most aromuns have a higher or much higher percentage of J2 than usual romanians.
http://www.carswell.com.au/wp-conten...n-analysis.pdf
15-03-12, 23:07
how yes no 3

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkey

That map is from a hobbyist at DNA Forums who took whatever proven I2a-Din-S he could find and attempted to fit its distribution to known Slavic migrations (he explicitly called them "Serb" migrations). IIRC, he relies heavily on the young Nordtvedt estimate of its age, and corresponds the origin to an area of peak diversity of I2a-Din-S observed by Verenich. After that, it's just a best-guess fit.

I actually found it to be a quality analysis, on par with Verenich's, although it has a lot of assumptions built into it, and may give an incorrect picture of how precisely we know things about I2a-Din-S at the moment. At least, it shows the coherence of assuming I2a-Din-S to be a relatively young Western (rather than Southern) branch of I2a-Din.

its realistic scenario....
though i still stick to Serians story.....as it fits well with spread of I2a2-Din in both Asia and Europe especially around Danube....

according to "De administrando imperio" Serbs come to Balkan from land Boiki where they have also originally dwellt and where they were called white
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false
hence we can speak of white Serbs

similarly in ancient Kurdish areas, in Cappadocia ancient authors e.g. Strabo speak of white Syrians

according to Seneca, Serians live around Danube, in Serica (northwest China), rule over scathered Scythians and rule over Red sea....
red sea is where Sherdana used to clash with ancient Egypt... a lake in Egypt was named after them - Serbonian bog...

I would add here that Kurds (which is for me same tribal name as Serdi and Sherdana) are people with significant I2a2
note that Kurdish tribes bare names such as Sorani and Garmiani... which may indicate the link to other haplogroup I people

Kurds hold position that fits perfectly into story of expansion of sea peoples.... i did explain this in thread about sea people... order of conquest of sea peoples strongly suggest that conquest started from southwest Black sea coasts made cut to Mediteranian went through south of Asia minor where we later find Lukka / Lycians (Lycians same as Boii and Serbs and Dacians? share link to wolf, Kurt = wolf in turkish indicating that possible origin of word in turkish might come from Kurds self-identifying with wolf... Lycians had several times leader with names Sarpedon which may have just meant ruler of Sarpes)..than conquest went south through what is today called Syria to red sea shores... clearly key areas in such conquest must have been Kurdish lands as they are bridge from Black sea to Mediteranean sea..

Strabo states that both tribes of Cappadocia are white Syrians, in fact he explains they are called white as being whiter than other Syrians..from rest of his talk its clear that for him Syrians = Sumerians as he talks about Semiramis, Ninus...
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/16A*.html

question is the relation of Sumerians and white Sumerians..could white Sumerians be later addition to Sumerian stock from some northern populations... could it be related to expansion of sea peoples? or is this about Gutians who ruled over Sumer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people

further from Kurds haplogroup I spread in Asia fits perfectly spread of Sarbans tribe in Pakistan and Avganistan...

Serians are also written in history as Seres

Pomponius Mela in Asia puts Seres in between Indians and Scythians...which probably boils down to a line from northwest China via Pakistan/Avganistan to Kurds... he clearly states that, starting from east, Asia (or what was called Asia in his time) is inhabited by Indians, Seres and Scythians..no doubt that Seres cannot be Chinese as they never lived west of Indians...west of Indians are areas of Avganistan, Pakistan, Kurdistan...

http://books.google.nl/books?id=6Apl...=seres&f=false

Serica is northwest China but also arc from China to India...northwest China is where silk was produced....this arc was trade route towards south seas....
both northwest China and arc are clearly seen in spread of haplogroup I in Asia.. (see map bellow...map is now somewhat outdated and needs less of hotspot in north iran and more in kurdish areas) big part of arc is made by Sarbans...(spread of Sarbans is depicted with green areas on the map of Avganistan and Pakistan bellow...compare it with the haplogroup I spread on map above it..its perfect match for arc...)

on Ptolemy map, Serica it is north of Tibet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PtomelyAsiaDetail.jpg

in north west China - area north of Tibet, there is a tribe with somewhat european look..they speak mongolian today and are called Sarta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

Sart in mongolian = moon, crescent
Serb coat of arms essentially has 4 "C" signs - crescents

Sarta of northwest China are related to white Sarts - name for people who origin from ancient arabic? trade people in areas such as Uzbekistan, Kyrgizstan...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

in fact Sart settled areas are again places with hotspot of haplogroup I
and there is clear sign of continuity with Serica - silk production from ancient times till today...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan

Attachment 5531
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/...eracies_sm.jpg

in europe I see people like Scirii/Scirrians and Scordisci/Serdi being genetically part of those Serians

those perhaps celto-germanic or east germanic people eventually merged with R1a Scytho-Sarmatians to give Slavs (Sclaveni) of today....

I2a2-Din-South has came to existence more recently among European branch of Serians.... my guess is Scirri and Scordisci did spread it originally... as Baltiic spread of I2a2-Din-South matches supposed locations of Sciri....

Serbs of today may origin from Scirii or Scordisci who merged with Sarmatians/Scythians to give Slavic people...

russian primary chronicle states that Serbs (and other south Slavs) origin from Danubian Slavs who lived in north Serbia around Danube (Hungary and Bulgaria at the time of writing) and went from there to Lyaks (Lechs or Poles) in times when they were pushed out from Danube basin by spreading Roman empire....this description maps Serbs mention in Russian primary chronicle to the position of Scordisci
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanipolo

as per your link, the tested northeast Italians are from trento which to this day is 52% german and 48% italian, it only became italian inside the last 100 yeras. Before this it was tyrolese, which was in ancient times Raeti and eugenai. With this knowledge 12a1b1 would have only occurred in trento area during the germanic migration from eastern germany.
2800 years = 700-800 BC which can include the illyrians, raeti, etruscans but not celtic, venetic, norici or ligurians as archeology has them at certain times which do not fit the scenario.

yes, but there were germanic people also entering other areas of italy not just Trento...

what about Boii?
i2a-din has high diversity in Czech republic...

Ser = head in iranic languages, honourable title in germanic languages
Ser Boii = main tribe of Boii

same as there are Scythians and royal Scythians

in that case
from Serboii could have come corruptions like Serdi / Scordisci / Sherdana
and we do know that Scordisci are related or same as Boii...
and that the lake named after Sherdana is called "Serbonian bog"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diurpaneus

I don't think that I2a1b is Slavic or Sarmatian.
If it was slavic baltic people should have this haplogroup.
Sarmatians were great warriors but they were'nt so many.For example in hungarian plains they ruled over a Dacian peasantry(Limigantes)
Various Dacian tribes lived in southern Poland,Slovakia and parts of Ukraine.
Aromuns are isolated Balkanic Romance speakers.Their language don't have Slavic borrowings(unlike Romanian).Even now they don't mix with others.But they have 20-40% I2a.

Serians rulled over scattered Scythians....
Scythians and Sarmatians are of same origin - Greek legends relate Sarmatians to origin from group of Scythians that lived with Amazones... in my opinion both Scythians and Sarmatians were dominantly R1a people

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diurpaneus

Albanians also have I2a1b.And they are too an isolated group.

Albanians in north Albania and on Kosovo and in Macedonia are isolated group they have almost no I2a2-Din...
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf

Albanians from Albania were ruled by Bulgarians for long time...and area was also heavily settled by Slavic people...in fact lot of toponyms in south Albania are Slavic in origin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diurpaneus

Strabo,Cassius Dio and many others says clearly that Getae and Dacians were Thracians not Scythians.
The Romans and especially the Greeks could make the difference between Thracians and Scythians.
There's no -ussa endig opposite to -dava.Cause you have only one place name Sarmizegetusa who could have -ussa ending.Many Dacian towns doesn't have -dava ending.
The dava it's a special type of town because it's a tribal center.
And Scythians don't have something like it.

in south slavic languages

fortress = tvrdjava , tvrdina
hard, strong = tvrd

hence fortress = hard/strong + dava (Dacian) or hard/strong + din (Celtic)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkey

How do you figure? Why can't R1a be the common haplogroup among Balto-Slavs, and I2a1b1a be basically unique to the Slavs?

yes...
Slavs in my opinion only came to existance after merging I2a2-Din with Scythian / Sarmatian / Balto-Slavic R1a

Quote:

Do we know the subclade or STR diversity of I2a in Aromuns? I know with Greek I2a-Din, it's almost always I2a-Din-N, which I don't discount could have some pre-Slavic connections, as it's the older of the I2a-Din branches (although Slavic incursions into modern Greece did happen, and I consider them a very likely source). But as a whole, even I2a-Din-N is strongly tied to Slavic migrations, as we see with its distribution in places like Belarus and Russia.

Serians ruled over scattered Scythians...
some translations of Seneca state Dacians instead of Scythians...

Quote:

Of course, more I2a-Din in the Balkans is I2a-Din-S, which probably has too young an expansion on the Balkans (from the north no less) to be connected to much of anything other than the Slavs.

i think its more or less clear that I2a2-din south spread with south Slavs...
16-03-12, 00:38
Yetos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gosh

Why Byzantine tzar Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos didn't talk about that? I dare to say that he had much better sources and better knowledge about the situation from that time.

BTW your speech about "invasion-devastation" sounds quite in "nazi" manner because Greeks and other nations from that period of time did the same. Moreover, only a part of south Slavs together with Avars invaded that territory.

You are right, but how can I describe it?
I do agree that Greeks did same as many others,
if you give me a correct description in words I will change it.
16-03-12, 00:49
Yetos

Quote:

Originally Posted by razor

Byzantine historical nomenclature was based on ancient literature, esp. Herodotus. And it wasn't an innovation in the time of Anna Comnena. The 3rd century Greek-scripting historian Deuxippus constantly spoke of the Goths as "Scythians" because they were from the territory of ancient Scythia, even though they had nothing in common with these ancient Scythians. Anna (12th century) also referred to Pechenegs and Cumans as "Scythians"... In fact this Greek oddity was noticed by the Old Kyivan chroniclers. In the Tale of Bygone years (written ca. 1116) Monk Nestor (or his continuator Sylvester( after a lengthy geographical description of the territory and population of the Kyivan Rus state (Slavs, Norse, Balts, Finns et al.) concluded "all these are called 'Great Scythia' by the Greeks". Keep that in mind when speculating about the connection between Slavs and Scythians.

That is the difference, that Scythians are connected with Both Goths, which for me are The Getae and with Slavic population,
while the term Sauromates is abandoned as also the term Getae? so what had happened?
they can not be vanished in thin air? then what,
it seems like Deuxipus as you said names Goths as Scythians Due to minor Scythia
and Anna komnene due to Major Scythia,

Historically we have a time that the land of Getae are under scythians, the minor Scythia,
while major Scythia is more East, beside the Sauromates,
so what had happened?
for me it seems like in Greater Scythia Scythian assimilated sauromates and create Slavic population, much before the arrival of Ros and Huno-Bulgars Tatars etc
while in minor Scythia they were mixed with Getae, before moved west as ostrogoths and Visigoths,

my personal opinion about that gets stronger everyday, if Sparky is correct about the I2a2 Din there it might be correct since we consider Thracian as R1a and R1b

Now about Ros and Rus Ρως are described as Northern non Slavic population, probably Scandinavian, since the Lion in Piraus, the one is 'taken' by Venicians has Scandinavic runic scripts, meaning that Ρως are same with Varangian guard according Byzantine, while people of Kiev are speaking Slavic, that is why they adopted the Cyrillic,

I have said many times
Ρως means North, Ρουσσο means red
Scythians used to paint their clothes RED

Scythia minor as you see is in the land of Getae

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Minor_map.jpg

while look at the bellow as Scythia
and exactly the area A
I wonder, is not the area of I population? that sparky Describes? or maybe I am worng?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hianGroups.png

It seems like Scythian and their names like Skiller Atto etc are connected with both Germanic and Slavic language and History, we know that Germanic and Slavic are connected in proto-forms,
I wonder either Germanic is a Thracian+scythian +west Europe language
and Slavic as Scythian+sarmatian+Baltic language,
a good point to that is except Tocharian all Satem languages are in areas near Turkic
populations while all Centum (except tocharian) in areas away from Turkic populations
16-03-12, 08:21
zanipolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkey

How do you figure? Why can't R1a be the common haplogroup among Balto-Slavs, and I2a1b1a be basically unique to the Slavs?

Because the term Slavic only appeared at its earliest time between 200 and 400AD according to slavic historians.

2 - I2a1b1a according to Ftdna in NOV 2011 found 40% of their tested people with this marker in Iberia. and it comprised of L160

3 - KN stated in DEC 2011 that there are 11 types of I HG and this slavic ones which came from the Antes and sklavians happened after the Roman empire existed. It does not make sense that he lost over 1000 years

Define what a Slav is?................if you read most web sites it designates a group similar to naming a Latin, british, iberian, scandinavian or celtic .........that is many tribes who had different HG and spoke the same tongue
16-03-12, 13:47
Gosh

Zanipolo
you didn't answer my question about I2a1b1 )))

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