I doubt it simply because I2-din is almost non-existent in western Europe. Unless the entire population got up and moved (doubt it).Quote:
Originally Posted by mihaitzateo
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I doubt it simply because I2-din is almost non-existent in western Europe. Unless the entire population got up and moved (doubt it).Quote:
Originally Posted by mihaitzateo
Not the first time being mentioned. I did write about it years ago, but when we only knew about I-S17250. Considering its and now known I-PH908 distribution and diversity in contemporary populations the Western-Central-Celtic migration falls short against Slavic migration. Autosomal results from medieval Bohemia indicate a Slavic movement from Eastern Europe as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by mihaitzateo
Unless I missed something, no I2 has been found in any Balkan samples from the Bronze Age onward. Only Sardinians today of non-Slavs carry any significant amount of an I2 variant. I'm also not aware of any Dacian samples, so we can't judge them and can just speculate that they were similar to Thracians. Although a heavily Mediterranean population similar to Greeks and southern Italians being that far north seems strange to me.
I'm with the consensus that I2a-Din spread with the Slavs.
"I'm with the consensus that I2a-Din spread with the Slavs."
Consensus? Based on what? Modern distribution? How scientific is that? That's just folklore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gyms
Statistics! where are Slavs that haplo is present in majority! Statistics is science as far as I know!
Yes ,of course. Statistics is a branch of biology concerned with the study of genes, genetic variation, and heredity in organisms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut
Why is I2a1b-Din relatively non-existent anywhere Germanic/Scando-Germanic went, and over represented everywhere Slavs went?Quote:
Originally Posted by gyms
It obviously wasn't originally Slavic being its ancestral clade was found in Sweden. Yet, it left Sweden long before the Scando-Germanic culture formed there. CTS102228 is overwhelmingly commonly found in Slavic nations. Most I2a1b in Germanics and Swedes all have more recent MRCA within the last 1000-1500 years. How the heck is it not associated with movements?
Many even suspect that it was when I2a1b joined R-Z280 & R-M458 that differentiated Proto-Slavic from Baltic. Some go so far as to say that Proto-Slavic is actually a Southern Baltoid language that was differentiated into Proto-Slavic with the inclusion of I2a1b and then the influence from Indo-Iranian.
What are the Germanic/Scando-Germanic branches of I2a1b-CTS102228 that are not found in Slavs? that are separated more than 2000 years? As far as I know I1 and I2a2a are the only I groups connected Germanic/Scando-Germanic peoples. There was also the case of the western cousin branch of I2a1b, I2a1a. It is also found in western europe. Despite no ADNA I find it hard to be associated with anything but the Slavic Migration. Maybe it was found to some extend in east Germanics prior to the migration? It seems however its ethnogenesis coincides with Proto-Slavs prior to the migration.
If Proto-Slavs were already occupying "east germanic" domains contrary to popular thought, than perhaps some slipped out earlier into your present location.
Having I2a1b doesn't make you any less Scandinavian(I assume per country of residence). 1000-1500 years is a long time. Hell, only takes a generation or 2 to change ancestral camps lol.
Perhaps some clades formed during the middle ages that may denote recent non-slavic ancestry. For instance my founder clade in L1029 is specific to Albanians so far. Which would mean the proto-Slavic ancestor or whatever they identified as, was assimilated into Albanians around the early middle ages and formed new branches that spread by other Albanians.
Modern statistics and diversity may not always be an exact science but all research up until now has mostly confirmed many hypotheses based off modern statistics with the finding of ADNA. Whilst ADNA for CTS10228 and M458 only date to the middle ages, chances are the adna wont be that far from the current position.
One might as well ask why L21 went to the British Isles, DF27 largely to Iberia, and U152 to France and Italy.
Some clans went one way and some another.
Hi Dibran, where have you found that ancestor clade was found in Sweden?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
Ancestor clade of I-CTS10228 is L621. The only known ancient sample of I-L621 was found in Prehistorical Portugal:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-ca117b/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5531429/
https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1006852
I-L621 is ancestral for Dinarik I-CTS10228 and Disles https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/
In modern samples, one region pops up as interesting for early diverged subclades of L621, it is Upper Raine basin (Southwestern Germany and Alsace) where few early separated branches of Disles and one of I-CTS10228* have been found:
Disles A' I-BY37319: P37+ M423+ CTS5375+ L621+ BY37319+ (A17060+) England and Germany (Baden-Württemberg);
Disles B' I-CTS10936*: P37+ M423+ BY37319+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848- Germany (Baden-Württemberg);
Disles B' I-S19848*: P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002- Germany (Baden-Württemberg), Sweden;
Disles B' I-Y44771 P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002+ Y44771+ Germany (Baden-Württemberg), South Eastern Poland;
Disles B' I-BY31905: P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002+ FGC20479+ BY31905+ Ireland, Scotland, England (more than 10 families from British Isles in this group);
Disles B' I-FGC20473: P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002+ CTS11768+ FGC20479+ FGC20473+ Germany (unknown location, probably Dirminger near France and Luxembourg border with Germany), Scotland (2 families), England (2 familes);
I-CTS10228* (Y3120-) Alsace region France.
Based on the data it is possible that ancestor of I-CTS10228>Y3120 lived on the west before moved in Eastern Europe, approximate time period might be 2200-2500 years ago, but even 4000 years ago based on formation age of I-CTS10228* from Alsace. So it can be some known historical moment but also unknown.
In addition to all that was said above, two early examples of I2a1-L621 come from 10th century Poland and 12-13th century Russia, both Slavic cultures.
About I2a2a. Most Albanians are L701. Mine was L801. I had matches in Germany, England. Common in Denmark, Sweden. I would say my haplogroup is connected with Vikings. My family traces its roots in Struga, but moved to Albania because my forefather had to hide. My question to you is how common is this haplogroup among Albanians in Macedonia, if you know anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
About I2a Dinaric, most Albanians belong in cluster Dinaric 3, which is not present in Slavic countries, but common in Romania. So Albanian Dinaric and Romanian Dinaric are native to Balkans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uplo...bution-map.jpgSubclades:
- DinC1 (A1221) 70% ~2 mln 400/450 CE Bulgaria, Moldova, Poland, Albania, Ukraine
- DinC2 (A16413) 15% ~0,4 mln Serbia, Ukraine
- DinCx (PH3414) 15% ~0,4 mln Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia
The haplogroup DinC (Z17855) is the smallest haplogroup of about 3 million men dominated by the population of Romania, in a smaller number of Ukraine, Russia and Bulgaria.It can be described as Black Sea population. DinC1 is the dominant subclade – about 2/3 of the DinC population. The mutation was made late because around 400 AD (100BC-850CE) the remaining mutations are small below 0.5 million.vayda http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/plug...ctor_65_14.png822total visits,2visits toda
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http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uplo...er-country.jpg
It is partially true. Albanians have about 7-9% I-CTS10228 overall. Dinaric A3 or Z17855 is probably the most common subclade based on confirmed Z17855 STR matches from the surrounding areas and some Z17855 tested people who claim paternal line origin from Albania, but there is very likely also some Y4460 and one tested Albanian has Y-str haplotype similar to A2512 that that is the most frequent subclade in Greece (have STR matches in Greek Macedonia, too).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut
For now, there are 3 confirmed Z17855+ Albanians, one unknown from FTDNA, one Z17855>A1221 from Albanian and I2a project, and one Shala from Kosovo tested at 23andme, plus 2 or 3 people who according to their stories have Slavic origin from North Albania.
In Albania among Albanians also appears cluster with distinctive markers DYS385=14-14 and DYS448=21. Three haplotypes with a huge difference on other markers that suggest that they do not have a recent common ancestor. One tested person is from South Albania, and in an anonymous study of Tosk the second haplotype appears and has a full str match on comparable markers in another scientific study probably from Tirana. The third one is from Kosovo with origin from Nothern Albania. This cluster also appears once in the scientific study of Greek Macedonia, no data about ethnic origin. The only deeper tested people with this distinctive values are from Mirilovici tribe from Hercegovina, they belong to Z17855>PH3414 and according to their family story and literature, their ancestors come from Prokletie mountain or Wester Macedonia. One haplotype from a scientific study of Macedonians might also belong to this cluster.
There is no data to confirm the expansion of Z17855 among Romanians, there are not much tested Romanian but most of the tested belong to S17250 with a significant part of PH908 and Y4460. The guy who made maps you referred to calculated tested non-Romanians in his sample, mostly Hungarians from Transilvania. He did a similar thing with Hungarian sample calculating people of (South) Slavic origin and Slavic surnames from Hungaria as Hungarians. Anyway, it is true that Z17855 is almost absent among West and East Slavs, but appears in all ethnicities in North Carpathians.
If we follow YFull ancestor(I-Y3120) of subclade I-Z17855 is the same as for Croatians and considering that subclade I-Z17855 Croatians do not have much it is very likely that subclade I-Z17855 is some older migration from south Poland, southwestern Ukraine towards eastern Ukraine, Romania, Moldavia, Bulgaria and when Slavs in the 5th, 6th century or earlier enter to the Roman Empire or go towards the Constantinople that is one of the Slavic groups or part of the same which are coming from that direction all the way to Greece and after that it is assimilated into Vlachs, Albanian, Greek nation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad82
The oldest known I2a1b-L161.1 individuals are the 8,000 year-old Loschbour man from Mesolithic Luxembourg, and a 7,800 year-old man from Motala in southern Sweden. Thats pretty much common knowledge at this point. Today however its rather non-existant in both places other than in Slavic populations. Much the same as I1 wasn't originally Germanic before Indo-Europeans, I2 was farmer before its various clades formed. This doesn't change the fact I1 developed with and spread from Germanic tribes. I2a1b-L161.1 just happens to be the clade that joined the expanding Corded Ware folk, and took part in the Proto Slavic ethnogenesis. Explaining why the majority of I2a1b in Europe is predominantly of Slavic origin. Meaning majority of those non-slavic I2a1b died out, as only its sister clade I2a1a is found in the west and not the east. Theres even some I1 clades that whilst Germanic spread and expanded with Slavs.
Very cool! Do you know what clade under L801 you are?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut
Just going off of Yfull it is mostly in north and north-west europe. I would agree its probably Vikings. More so Varangian Guard(which were stationed in Macedonia). Theres some clades that have more Slavs, perhaps those were East Germanics like Goths or Bastarnae that were assimilated into Slavs. I think in your case Varangian Guard is a good bet. They only showed up last 700-800 years though. How close are your matches outside of Albania? If they are further than 1000 years I would say Goths. They did settle cut through Western Macedonia. Normans are also a possibility. They cut through Dibra on both sides of the border. There is even a I2a1a Albanian from Diber Madhe in the project. According to our project results, I2-M223 makes up about 2 percent of Albanians. All the L701 are from Southern Albania. Did you do FTDNA or YSEQ? don't see you in the group. I imagine you're the first L801 in the group. Don't see any others in the results. The only Albanian from Macedonia in the project is the I2a1a sample I mentioned. So out of 33 Albanians from Macedonia it accounted for 3 percent.
No I am afraid not. Romania has just as much slavic ancestry as their neighbors. I think they are most alike with Bulgarians. Dinaric C is actually younger than the other branches. Its dominance in Romanians doesn't make it native. Its age for the entire Dinaric C is only 1550 years old. It lines up perfectly with the Slavic migrations. Dinaric C is found predominantly in Romanians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, and in Albanians and Greeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut
The fact a good majority of Albanian I2-Din is part of the Romanian cluster likely means that a majority of Albanian I2-Din is connected to Vlachs of Albania, a throng of which has Slavic ancestry and was likely latinized through co-mingling and similar professions. Even though the earliest ancestor is Slavic, the cluster likely indicates the recent ancestor was a Vlach in the case of Albanians. Or even a northern Greek depending on matching. I2-PH908 however, is dominant in Serbs, Bosnians and I think West Herzegovinian Croats. It is almost characteristic of a Serbian progenitor. It seems about 2 thirds of Albanian I2-Din is the Romanian cluster with the remainder falling in the Serbian PH908 and other I2-Din.
The most likely scenario is Din C in Albanians is jointly connected to Vlachs and the Bulgarian empire. I2-A2512 is the only clade of I2-Din that I think may be connected to Bastarnae. It is the oldest I2-Din clade, 2200ypb, and is exclusively found in Greeks and East European Jews. The time frame also lines up with around 200BC when King Phillip brought some to Macedonia. However, to my knowledge no Albanians have popped up in this clade.
Everyone, let's be careful with these classifications. I2a-CTS10228>Y3120 haplotypes are almost impossible to classify into any clade other than PH908. Almost no Albanians have been reliably classified into Z17855. Romanians also remain relatively untested. So much so, that there is only one Romanian Z17855 on YFull right now, for example. Speaking of Romanian, Albanian or Vlach clusters is a little premature at this point.
I had a Y full and my closest match was a German from Berlin surroundings. I don't want to publish my full y here. I have no doubt that my early ancestors were either Goths or Vikings. What I am interested are Albanians from Macedonia region, mainly Struga. My forefather around 1800 had 7 other siblings . He committed a crime and went to hiding in southern Albania. He did not keep contact with them out of fear of being discovered. So we have lost contact with our distant cousins. I think I can have a chance of finding them if anyone with the same haplogroup appears in that area. My search through the last name has not produced anything. The reason I asked you was that I assumed you understand the Macedonian language and might be aware of anything in that language. Thank you for your response!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
Food for thought, I'd suggest you to spend some time reading about the Moesogoths and Pannonian Goths to begin with. Goths were actually recorded to have settled in high numbers in Moesia and Thrace, as well as Pannonia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
The Romanization (Vlachs) makes sense for the Gothic foederati in the Roman Empire, whereas the theory that the ruling Slavs come to a Greek speaking area and abandon farming for a nomadic lifestyle and suddenly acquire a Romance tongue sounds like a stretch.
Now of course I'm talking about who spread CTS10228 not the origin. For the origin I'd suggest reading about the Celts and check where they were settled in antiquity (maps).
Curiosity: if you check yfull you will notice CTS10228* in France.
Furthermore, you can do some more reading on the wars between Dacians, Carpi, etc. and the Romans and see in how many instances these Dacians were actually enslaved and settled South of Danube.
So you might have a point to attribute their spread to Slavic migrations, but that seems to apply more to their spread Northwards and Eastwards whereas the Balkans have far better candidates consisting of nations that were already around the Carpathians (Dacians) or the ones that arrived later (first Celts, throw in there the Bastarnae, and later Goths).
P.s. This applies to your clade and to that of Tutkun Arnaut too. I believe it's worth investing some time in other theories (stronger in my opinion, especially because of the Romanization factor) and not to obsess too much only the Slavic theory.
Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, and Croatia were flooded with Vlachs and their Romance tongue is what got them the name Vlasi, not the fact that it simply meant shepherd and it was applied to Serbs. That could have indeed happened later.
[QUOTE=Dibran;570538]No I am afraid not. Romania has just as much slavic ancestry as their neighbors. I think they are most alike with Bulgarians. Dinaric C is actually younger than the other branches. Its dominance in Romanians doesn't make it native. Its age for the entire Dinaric C is only 1550 years old. It lines up perfectly with the Slavic migrations. Dinaric C is found predominantly in Romanians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, and in Albanians and Greeks.
The fact a good majority of Albanian I2-Din is part of the Romanian cluster likely means that a majority of Albanian I2-Din is connected to Vlachs of Albania, a throng of which has Slavic ancestry and was likely latinized through co-mingling and similar professions. Even though the earliest ancestor is Slavic, the cluster likely indicates the recent ancestor was a Vlach in the case of Albanians. Or even a northern Greek depending on matching. I2-PH908 however, is dominant in Serbs, Bosnians and I think West Herzegovinian Croats. It is almost characteristic of a Serbian progenitor. It seems about 2 thirds of Albanian I2-Din is the Romanian cluster with the remainder falling in the Serbian PH908 and other I2-Din.
If it was from Vlahs we would have known since to my knoledge there were not many mixed marriages between Vlahs and Albanians. Until 1970 most marriages in Albania were arranged marriages. I have witnessed arranged marriages in my family and questions asked about the bride or bridegroom were mindblowing. There were questions like: Does any one in her tribe has any mental sicknees, did anyone died of heart failings, or how long people in that tribe live, or is any sickness common in that tribe or why his or her cousin has a dark skin? If failing anyone of this questions the marriage was in doubt. Being a Vlah would not have gone unnoticed! So until recently Vlahs lived in separate villages or towns. If it is as you are saying could be from early slaves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nik
I don’t want to be closed to the alternative scenarios you suggest so it’s definitely possible. However absent ADNA, modern distribution suggests otherwise. of course there could be another theory. Something in the middle of what you suggest and what’s the popularly held opinion.
Perhaps some M458 and CTS10228 were from Goths, Dacians. Maybe the free Dacians or Getae that fled further north formed the ethnogenesis of Slavs who migrated later and then were recorded as “Sklavenoi”. This could explain why only a few surviving clades had a demographic boom and expanded out again as Slavs. Maybe when Roman writers called Sklavenoi Getae there was some truth to it.
The queation is how how do we confirm either scenario when it rests only on guess work? Also how do we reconcile the young ages of lineages? And if some of these are actually Gothic or Dacian then what’s left that’s “Slavic”?
personally I think Proto Slavs were northern cousins/neighbors of Dacians/Getae. Much like Scandinavians and Germans have a common ethno-linguistic origin I think the same in the case for Proto Slavs and Getae/Dacians.
Also I thought most diversity for CTS10228 is in Poland while L1029 is in Poland/East Germany/Belarus?
If I remember correctly, while I2a-Din shows highest SNP basal diversity in the region between Ukraine, Poland and Belarus, STR diversity is highest in northern Romania and Moldova. Perhaps a very distant early ancestor of the Slavs originally came from assimilated southern neighbours before the expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
We'll probably never know who these people were though. All kinds of tribes lived in the western steppe.
Very interesting. That is possible as well. Kind of related to the theory I suggested where some free dacians fled north and expanded out later with the Slavic migrations. Maybe A2512 is Bastarnae or a Dacian/Getae that stayed behind? Could explain its occurence in only Greeks and East European Jews. Seems to be older than the other I2-Din clades expanding out with Slavs. How about for M458, and possibly more specifically L1029? I have an Albanian founder effect in L1029 with all my Albanian matches having a MRCA 0f 1200ypb roughly. My matches outside my clade is at basal L1029 with 2000-2100ypb. In all likelihood it came with the Slavs too since the founder is 1200ypb among Albanians. My theory is that even if it was Gothic/Dacian/Bastarnae, that since the founder effect likely occurred around 800AD it probably expanded with the Bulgarian Empire.Quote:
Originally Posted by markod
As far as I understand from discussions on the matter, the highest SNP diversity for L1029 is Poland and East Germany/ South-West Belarus. However, some have stated highest R1a diversity is actually in Romania as well. I have not been able to find any actual published sources stating any of the above but it seems to be the common consensus. I am unsure if the diversity in Romania is more STR related like I2a-Din or SNP related.