How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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02-01-18, 23:53
Angela

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrvat22

Autosomal genetics can not prove migration of tribe and can not confirm or deny historical records. Y haplotype can only do this, for that reason Y haplotype is essential for the history of a nations or tribes etc.

Y haplotype belongs to genetics. If we talk about history and genetics in this forum that's the only proof, at least in migration of peoples or tribes.

That's absolutely incorrect. If X population has a certain autosomal make-up, and then after a change in technology, for example, as in ceramics or metallurgy, one way we can know that a migration of people caused the changes, and not just cultural diffusion, is that the autosomal make up has changed. Even if the y chromosome is damaged, and we can tell nothing from it, it would tell us that.

You are dismissing an entire and extremely important branch of population genetics because you don't want to know what it says about the ancestry of your people.

Anyone who is reading this exchange realizes that 1) you know very little about the history and archaeology of your own area; 2) you know very little about population genetics; 3) you are being dishonest and willfully blind.

Given all that, whom can you hope to convince?

I'm out. This is a waste of everyone's time.
03-01-18, 01:22
Lenab

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrvat22

Let's say that Croats come from White Croatia and all the way to Turkish times have northern autosomal genetics, then come Vlachs and bring Balkan, African autosomal genetics. Which conclusions we can conclude ?, whether the Croats came from White Croatia or Africa, Greece, Albania etc.

I'm interested in migration and confirmation of historical records, this autosomal genetics does not determine.

It's better to look at several haplogroups in people's general make up not just one. There are varying haplogroups according to general areas because one haplogroup marks one common ancestor.

Croatia is what's known as Central Europe a ''stones throw'' away from Slovenia and Serbia, so naturally they could be both or either. Also blondism especially in the ''Balkans'' doesn't account to much, as Neolithic farmers were usually fairer skinned and lighter haired and eyed.

WHG were the darker ones, in fact.
03-01-18, 02:45
Litovoi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumidre

The main difference between north Slavs and south Slavs is the percentage of I2a... unless the south Slavs got the I2a from Amazon.com (they have EVERYTHING) [emoji16], they have mixed with the people that lived in the Danube area already and were I2a... so I2a is not original Slavic but it did spread with the growing Slavic presence in the Balkans.
BTY, Vlachs are Daco-Romans and not just remnants of melting pot of Roman Empire... also Moldovan people are the same as Vlachs; language is the same as proof. Moldovan tend to have more percentage of I2a BECAUSE of the Dacian substrate (after Romans took over Dacia, there were free Dacians right where Present Moldova is now).
Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

Very natural,clear,positive,and I definitely say ,extremely melodic, speech,it surely sounds like ours ,from Western Wallachia.
We have preserved our genes,there's little doubt about that,here's an autosomal genetic study that leaves not much of interpretation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11591048/
EDIT
The sampled Romanian Aromanians were Frasherots.
https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...H-h2Q5jUsV7ps6
EDIT
I have met Aromanians,but nobody was more close to my folks than the Stojan brothers,my friends from the university, from FYROM Macedonia,they had that spark,initiative,if you know what I mean,but especially a more elaborated extensive behaviour.
EDIT
The Aromanians cluster linguistically with the Istro-Romanians and Northern Romanians(Transylvanians and Moldavians),but the Frasherots and some of the FYROMS share the epenthesys of i with a Wallachian-Megleno-Romanian group.
Of course,the main division is ,DacoR,IstroR-Aromanianian,MeglenoR.
EDIT
I2a within the Romanian-Vlach is clearly supported by some specific autosomes.
03-01-18, 03:15
Lenab

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litovoi

Very natural,clear,positive,and I definitely say ,extremely melodic, speech,it surely sounds like ours ,from Western Wallachia.
We have preserved our genes,there's little doubt about that,here's an autosomal genetic study that leaves not much of interpretation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11591048/

I am wondering about the ratio of South Pontids in South Eastern Europe compared to Dinarics, general Slavs etc Dinarics are Megalithic anyway
03-01-18, 08:17
hrvat22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenab

It's better to look at several haplogroups in people's general make up not just one. There are varying haplogroups according to general areas because one haplogroup marks one common ancestor.

Croatia is what's known as Central Europe a ''stones throw'' away from Slovenia and Serbia, so naturally they could be both or either. Also blondism especially in the ''Balkans'' doesn't account to much, as Neolithic farmers were usually fairer skinned and lighter haired and eyed.

WHG were the darker ones, in fact.

I do not have data for other haplotypes (R1a, I1) so I'm just talking about main Croatian haplotype I2a for which I have some data, for E1b, J2b and R1b types I suppose to come from east of the Balkans because the branches which Croats have exist there (Vlachs, Albania possible Bulgaria, Greece), the only thing is possible that part of R1b types in Croatia are western branches.

As far as origin is concerned, I have said that in my opinion, looking at genetic and historical records to Roman Dalmatia only and exclusively came Croats which later divide and become these or that, I proved this on the subject

Quote:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ats-to-Croatia

and to this day no one refute me with historical data and genetics.

As regards hair, eyes color etc. it has nothing to do with the Y haplotype.
03-01-18, 10:57
Litovoi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenab

I am wondering about the ratio of South Pontids in South Eastern Europe compared to Dinarics, general Slavs etc Dinarics are Megalithic anyway

There was a Serbian guy ,from the southeastern parts,who posted his results on K
twenty - something,he turned very close with the Romanians(along with Bosnians and Croatians),especially the Wallachians and Moldavians,and clearly not that close to Ukraine-Poland, Turkey or even Bulgaria.
Coon,followed the general trend back them,the study was very biased towards the outer Carpathians(Wallachians and Moldavians),he gives as example the village Nereju Mare(Vrancea county),somewhere very close to SE Transylvania, actually,as the name shows,it comes from the Hungarian nyres,'a place with birch trees'.
Exaggerating the Pontid ratio in the Southern Carpathians,remains in the more conservative agenda of Germany,that still claims a more Ottoman influence ,actually Wallachia has fought the most against them,and,despite the position,became their latest vassals ,among the Romanian provinces,still, none of it became pashalik.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admi...ire_(1609).png
Since the Romanians were part of the Bulgarian state,there is a Slavic influence on them ,nevertheless, the more consistently Slavic-looking persons seem clearly more Dinaric- influenced than vice-versa(the number of the 'unmixed' Dinarics is larger).
If you sample from a very small region,there would be some particularities,for instance,Bucharest is somehow different from the rest of Wallachia,since in the late 18th c. some Bulgarians were settled there,the Dristor neighbourhood was initially one of their villages,we can ad Branesti,nevertheless, the people from the Capitala remain Wallachian Vlascans at their finest.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19480027/
03-01-18, 11:53
ziratul

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litovoi

There was a Serbian guy ,from the southeastern parts,who posted his results on K
twenty - something,he turned very close with the Romanians(along with Bosnians and Croatians),especially the Wallachians and Moldavians,and clearly not that close to Ukraine-Poland or Turkey
Coon,followed the general trend back them,the study was very biased towards the outer Carpathians(Wallachians and Moldavians),he gives as example the village Nereju Mare(Vrancea county),somewhere very close to SE Transylvania, actually,as the name shows,it comes from the Hungarian nyres,'a place with birch trees'.
Exaggerating the Pontid ratio in the Southern Carpathians,remains in the more conservative agenda of Germany,that still claims a more Ottoman influence ,actually Wallachia has fought the most against them,and,despite the position,became their latest vassals ,among the Romanian provinces,still, none of it became pashalik.

I2a1CTS10228(Bosnia) Is it Vlach?

23andme results: 84.7% Balkan, 11.7% Eastern Europe, 3.4% Broadly European
GeneCove results: 73% Eastern Mediterranean, 27% North-East Europe
Gedmatch Farmer vs Hunter Gatherer: 49.03% Med-Anatolian Farmer, 43.59% Baltic Hunter Gatherer, 5.17% ME Herder
GenePlaza K29: 24.6% Eastern Slavic, 6.5% South Slavic, 27.1% Greek, 2.8% Sicilian, 29.8% Celtic
GenePlaza Ancestry: 66.4% East Mediterranean, 25.9% North Slavic
DNA.LAND: 83% Balkan, 16% North Slavic, 1% Ambiguous
WeGene: 58,63% Hungarian?, 39,71% Balkan
03-01-18, 12:04
Yetos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenab

It's better to look at several haplogroups in people's general make up not just one. There are varying haplogroups according to general areas because one haplogroup marks one common ancestor.

Croatia is what's known as Central Europe a ''stones throw'' away from Slovenia and Serbia, so naturally they could be both or either. Also blondism especially in the ''Balkans'' doesn't account to much, as Neolithic farmers were usually fairer skinned and lighter haired and eyed.

WHG were the darker ones, in fact.

Sory?
Neolithic fairer skin and lighter hair??
03-01-18, 13:09
MaxCRO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angela

Now the Vlachs brought AFRICAN autosomal genetics to Croatia? Where do you find African autosomal genetics in the Balkans?

There were so many Vlachs migrating into Croatia that they now account for 50% of the autosomal inheritance of Croatians?

50 precent ? Definitelly not, that is more realistic for Serbs or Romanians. Croats are more slavic than native autosomally, despite of significant authochtonous contribution, and likely some other minute admixtures.

Why was my comment deleted , is this civilised forum or north korea ?
03-01-18, 13:30
Litovoi

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziratul

I2a1CTS10228(Bosnia) Is it Vlach?
23andme results: 84.7% Balkan, 11.7% Eastern Europe, 3.4% Broadly European
GeneCove results: 73% Eastern Mediterranean, 27% North-East Europe
Gedmatch Farmer vs Hunter Gatherer: 49.03% Med-Anatolian Farmer, 43.59% Baltic Hunter Gatherer, 5.17% ME Herder
GenePlaza K29: 24.6% Eastern Slavic, 6.5% South Slavic, 27.1% Greek, 2.8% Sicilian, 29.8% Celtic
GenePlaza Ancestry: 66.4% East Mediterranean, 25.9% North Slavic
DNA.LAND: 83% Balkan, 16% North Slavic, 1% Ambiguous
WeGene: 58,63% Hungarian?, 39,71% Balkan

Of course it is,since regions with very high frequencies,also score very high in the autochthonous autosomes from the Praefectura Illyricum.
Was it originally Vlach?
I believe so,but we must have more concrete evidence.
Many Bosnians as well cluster with the Romanians,since there were lots of links in the past between these regions.
The Romanians-Vlachs are the Latin speakers that once lived in the Eastern Illyricum ,mostly the Diocese of Dacia,and the former Dacia Traiana,while the Serbs,Bosnians and Croats have additionally inherited genes from Western Illyricum(Dalmatia and Pannonia),where there were people that probably spoke a language similar to Dalmatian.
Linguistics have proved that the Vlachs from Serbia during the Medieval Ages were of Daco-Romanian type,these,along with their closest relatives ,the Istro-Romanians ,have pushed westwards,reaching Croatia,via Bosnia.
03-01-18, 14:33
ziratul

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litovoi

Of course it is,since regions with very high frequencies,also score very high in the autochthonous autosomes from the Praefectura Illyricum.
Was it originally Vlach?
I believe so,but we must have more concrete evidence.
Many Bosnians as well cluster with the Romanians,since there were lots of links in the past between these regions.
The Romanians-Vlachs are the Latin speakers that once lived in the Eastern Illyricum ,mostly the Diocese of Dacia,and the former Dacia Traiana,while the Serbs,Bosnians and Croats have additionally inherited genes from Western Illyricum(Dalmatia and Pannonia),where there were people that probably spoke a language similar to Dalmatian.
Linguistics have proved that the Vlachs from Serbia during the Medieval Age were of Daco-Romanian type,these,along with their closest relatives ,the Istro-Romanians ,have pushed westwards,reaching Croatia,via Bosnia.

Iwould
like to see Romanian K29 GenePlaza, do you have one? or do you know who has those results?

Cheers.
03-01-18, 16:21
Wonomyro

Who were these Bosanci (Bosnians) in Bukovina?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosanci,_Suceava

Bosnians got their name after a medieval region Bosnia (initialy a circle in the middle):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M...pansion-en.svg

A region got its name after a river:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosna_(river)
03-01-18, 16:36
Lenab

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrvat22

I do not have data for other haplotypes (R1a, I1) so I'm just talking about main Croatian haplotype I2a for which I have some data, for E1b, J2b and R1b types I suppose to come from east of the Balkans because the branches which Croats have exist there (Vlachs, Albania possible Bulgaria, Greece), the only thing is possible that part of R1b types in Croatia are western branches.

As far as origin is concerned, I have said that in my opinion, looking at genetic and historical records to Roman Dalmatia only and exclusively came Croats which later divide and become these or that, I proved this on the subject and to this day no one refute me with historical data and genetics.

As regards hair, eyes color etc. it has nothing to do with the Y haplotype.

Yes all true you have rep for that
03-01-18, 16:37
Lenab

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yetos

Sory?
Neolithic fairer skin and lighter hair??

Yes Neolithic farmers were generally lighter than WHG
03-01-18, 16:42
Wonomyro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litovoi

Linguistics have proved that the Vlachs from Serbia during the Medieval Age were of Daco-Romanian type

That makes sense. So Romanians probably originate from romanized Moesinas and Dardanians who moved north rather then from Dacians. https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datote...nd_Thracia.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litovoi

Linguistics have proved that the Vlachs from Serbia during the Medieval Age were of Daco-Romanian type,these,along with their closest relatives ,the Istro-Romanians ,have pushed westwards,reaching Croatia,via Bosnia.

Then, if the Vlachs from Serbia were "pushed westwards" to become Istro-Romanians wouldn't they also be of Daco-Romanian type? Istro-Romanians are not even a part of a Balkan Sprachbund:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund

Other Vlachs and even some Slavs indeed are. Btw. what makes you think that the Romanian speaking Vlachs were originally I2a people?
03-01-18, 17:08
Lenab

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litovoi

There was a Serbian guy ,from the southeastern parts,who posted his results on K
twenty - something,he turned very close with the Romanians(along with Bosnians and Croatians),especially the Wallachians and Moldavians,and clearly not that close to Ukraine-Poland or Turkey
Coon,followed the general trend back them,the study was very biased towards the outer Carpathians(Wallachians and Moldavians),he gives as example the village Nereju Mare(Vrancea county),somewhere very close to SE Transylvania, actually,as the name shows,it comes from the Hungarian nyres,'a place with birch trees'.
Exaggerating the Pontid ratio in the Southern Carpathians,remains in the more conservative agenda of Germany,that still claims a more Ottoman influence ,actually Wallachia has fought the most against them,and,despite the position,became their latest vassals ,among the Romanian provinces,still, none of it became pashalik.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admi...ire_(1609).png
Since the Romanians were part of the Bulgarian state,there is a Slavic influence on them ,nevertheless, the more consistently Slavic-looking persons seem clearly more Dinaric- influenced than vice-versa(the number of the 'unmixed' Dinarics is larger).
If you sample from a very small region,there would be some particularities,for instance,Bucharest is somehow different from the rest of Wallachia,since in the late 18th c. some Bulgarians were settled there,the Dristor neighbourhood was initially one of their villages,we can ad Branesti,nevertheless, the people from the Capitala remain Wallachian Vlascans at their finest.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19480027/

Ok cool but I wanted data on the ratio of South Pontids if anyone has it I know they exist i have already seen Bachus print out some examples
03-01-18, 17:55
alexfritz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yetos

Sory?
Neolithic fairer skin and lighter hair??

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017...hic-europeans/
a subset apparently was
03-01-18, 17:56
Lenab

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexfritz

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017...hic-europeans/
a sub set apparently was

Thank you a Slovenian terrorist is now messaging me in private about it
03-01-18, 18:01
alexfritz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenab

Thank you a Slovenian terrorist is now messaging me in private about it

? ? ?
send my regards ... i guess
03-01-18, 18:02
davef

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexfritz

? ? ?
send my regards ... i guess

Your reaction was my reaction :confused2:...
03-01-18, 18:03
AdeoF

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexfritz

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017...hic-europeans/
a subset apparently was

Hmm interesting and yes there was all different kind of hair and eye colour around that time and it has not changed much to the present day.
03-01-18, 18:04
AdeoF

Quote:

Originally Posted by davef

Your reaction was my reaction :confused2:...

That was the first reaction then that reaction now my reaction
03-01-18, 18:07
Lenab

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexfritz

? ? ?
send my regards ... i guess

The user named srdceleva a Slovenian says that Neolithic farmers are like Ashkenazi Jews and Middle Easterners along with Greeks and Sicilians. Greeks Macedonians and Montenegrin is apart of the Balkans last time I checked

He also said that a half Serbian half English would plot in Austria he is delusional maybe you could message him for me as my private messaging service doesn't work

Slovakian whatever
03-01-18, 18:21
davef

I swear to every god, goddess and all the other dudes with super magical powers, this has got to be one of the most comical threads I have ever, ever seen
03-01-18, 18:25
Lenab

Quote:

Originally Posted by davef

I swear to every god, goddess and all the other dudes with super magical powers, this has got to be one of the most comical threads I have ever, ever seen

The only thing that's comical is that my private messages have now been blocked. alexfritz
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/images...ser-online.png Do you think Italians even Southern should deal with that crap?

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