Why is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
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Why is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
I did not know this, less evidence for paleolithic continuity. One thing I do believe strongly is that the origin point for all the I2 subclades has to be Bavaria, at some point pre LGM there had to have been a population explosion there. Each and every one of the I2 clades is found very near there in high frequencies overlapping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sile
Isn't that a moot point, though, considering that I2a Din is less than 3,000 years old?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sile
Where from did you get the data about the "exact" age?
I think if not Paleolithic continuity then the best explanation is that it was spread by the Gothic tribes. M26 being Visigoth, M423 being Ostrogoth. If you know the history of the Goths well you know that they migrated en masse from Far Eastern Europe south of the Danube to escape the Huns, eventually settling in Pannonia. This matches perfectly the hot spots of I2a1 in the Balkans (South of the Danube, in the Ostrogothic Kingdom we find the highest frequencies of I2a1). It also explains I2a1 in western Ukraine North of the Danube.
Visigoths were granted land in the Aquitaine, homeland of the Basques, which is where we see another hotspot of I2a1 in an otherwise relatively homogenous R1b group. The Visigoths also conquered Sardinia which explains the high frequency of I2a1 M26 in the Region with it being a relatively homogenous EEF group autosomally. The Goths were likely already drifted from the makeup of Lochsbur/Motala, contributed less WHG to the overall makeup of Sardinia.
We know that I2a1b existed in Sweden (Gotaland) in the Mesolithic (Motala), the history of the Goths states that they migrated out of Scandinavia through Eastern Europe and established a kingdom in Dacia (Now Western Ukraine/Romania north of the Danube). This matches the Distribution of I2a1 perfectly.
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ogroup_I2a.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rd_century.jpg
Attachment 6436
"Less than 3,000 years old" is hardly exact, but, to answer your question, everything I've read gives estimates between 1,900 and 3,000 years before present. It's recent origin is part of the puzzle, if I'm not mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ike
I found this excellent post on another forum I wanted to bring here. Pretty compelling, especially considering the Mesolithic I2a1b finds in Motala. This user seems to be against a Scandinavian origin but I think the Lochsbur/Motala finds support it.
DNA associated with the Germanic Goths
Hi everyone,
in his recent spread map Dr. Ken Nordtvedt “himself” locates the start of the I2a2a Dinarics, from now on, namley around the middle course of the Vistula. Which is modern day Pomerania.
Estimated age: about 2500 years ago. see google: Tree and Map for Hg I pdf
Dr. Ken Nordtvedt mentioned, a while ago:
I2a2a Dinaric is just too young to not have been the result of a sudden expansion not much more than 2000 years ago.
It is well testified, that 2000 years ago, the Vistula area were still part of Germania. And the Wielbark culture, (mainly associated with the Goths, as well as the Rugii, Heruli, Gepids and other Germanic tribes) appeared also in the Vistula area about the same time period like the haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric. The Wielbark culture also had a sudden expansion out of the Vistula, not much more than 2000 years ago. Spreading out into the same directions like the I2a2a Dinarics in Ken Nordtvedts new spread map. Although his spread map is schematic, it shows unequivocally and absolutely clear a huge expansion from the north into the southeast of Europe and the Balkan area.
The first movments of the slavic people, appear centuries later. Moving slowly from the southeast to the northwest of Europe. (Peter Heather, “Barbarians and Empires”). But the Gothic people moved the other way around, exactly the same way like the I2a2a Dinarics in reference to the spread map from Dr. Ken Nordtvedt. Concerning I2a2a Dinaric, no ethnics of people, in that number, at that time and particular place, could come into question, other than the Germanics and Gothic tribes. This is the only plausible explanation. The Goths as well as the I2a2a Dinarics, demonstrating a huge sudden expansion at the same time, moving in the same directions into the southeast of Europe. I can not see anything slavic in this group, because of the relationship between I2a2a Dinarics, I2a2a Disles and I2a2a Isles in Britain.
“Familytreedna administration 2012:
Dear I2a Project members:
We are happy to announce that all known I2a men can be placed in one of these five subgroups:
I2a1 (also called I-M26, nicknamed "Sardinian")
I2a2 (also called I-M423, includes "Dinaric", "Disles" and "Isles")
I2a3 (now called I-L1286, includes "Alpine" group, and the I-L233 groups "Western" and "Western Isles")
I2a4 (also called I-L880, nicknamed "Northern France")
I2a5 (also called I-L1294, nicknamed "France")
At this point, let us not forget the relationship between I2a and I2b in general. Basically you can claim, that pretty much all I2a2a Dinaric members in todays eastern Europe are culturally slavic people! But, they display ethnically Gothic/Germanic roots. Most of recent published maps about the migration of Germanic tribes, show the movment of the Goths and how they left their traces mainly in eastern Europe. Most of modern historians and scientific up-to-date maps show that the Goths did not come from Scandinavia. That was a long time legende from Jordanes. But if they are not originated from Scandinavia, would explain the lack of I2a2a Dinarics in Scandinavia. This means the Goths do not necessarily need to have a lot of I1a. The Goths left their DNA mainly in eastern Europe as we can clearly retrace. And very little in Germany except Thuringa and Hesse. (“Heike Grahn-Hoek”)
Most people, until now, are still strongly convinced that haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric must be of slavic origin, because of it´s high presence in eastern Europe and the Balkan areas. It was a logical conclusion, in the first point of view. But now we can see on the new map, that the origin of I2a2a Dinaric is not the Balkan area. It is roughly what is todays Poland. That makes a big difference. Peter Heather the modern day historian and expert of the Goths wrote something very interesting in this connection in his last published book (Empires and Barbarians) concerning the slavic expansion:
The Slavs came primary from the southeast and moved slowly sometimes even step by step to the west. But not all Germanic settlements were left when the Slavs moved into the northwest in the 6th century. There were still many farmers and familys in their Germanic homelands. The slavic people took over and the Germanics, have been assimilated by the arrivng slavic population. And the slavic language became the dominat one in these areas. (The Crimea might be an exception. It seems there was a gothic dialect spoken until the 17th century.)
This absorption or assimilation-process happend amazingly peaceful. At least, at the begin of the slavic expansion. Without these Germanic settlers, the slavic empire could have never reached the size as it is, in that short period of time, says Heather.
The Goths and Rugii did not just come with an conquering army to eastern Europe. They came with their entire people. Thousends and thousends of woman and children, farmers and warriors spread all across eastern Europe and the Balkan area.
They marched off to Belarus, conquer and settle in Moldavia and Romania (Dacia). They settled and established a powerful state in Dacia. Sacking Greece (Athens, Sparta) and even Rhodes, Cyprus and Crete were targets of their attacks. Battles in Turkey (Adrianople). Occupation of Albania 489-535.
Also Settlements in western Hungary (Pannonia). 255 The Goths invade Macedonia. Taking over Moesia (Bulgaria) later known as the Moesian Goths. Ulfilias made the Gothic translation of the Bible for them. Raids in Belgrade, just to name a few well testyfied operations in the east. Bosnia was under the control of Theodoric the Great and his Ostrogothic Kingdom between 490-535. Dr. G. Rus, professor at the University of Liubljana, was taking detailed studys of Croatian and Bosnian origins. Professor Rus had proved that there were two large Gothic migrations into Bosnia and Croatia (Dalmatia). See the most recent map of germanic migrations below. The Goths and their Wielbark cousins were nearly all over eastern Europe. The Ostrogothic kingdom under Thoderic the Great was huge.
That´s why we still see most of I2a2a Dinarics in eastern Europe and the Balkan area today. Of course, we do have some I2a2a Dinaric members from italy as well. Check the Familytreedna I2a project.
(The sack of Rome, The Battle of Mons Lactarius near Naples, Ravenna the Ostogothic kingdom).
We also have members from Austria and Bavaria.They recently discovered the biggest Ostrogothic cemetery,more than 400 graves, ever found, at a place called Hemmaberg in Austria. The roman military brought a lot of gothic auxiliaries to the British isles, see Gloucester Goth. We do have I2a2 Dinaric members from the British Isles as well. Even the germanic Heruli (also Wielbark culture) came in two huge waves to the Aegean sea. The Rugii (Wielbark culture) have a strong conection to the Rus (Rugii-Rusyn-Rus-Ruthenen). After 900 AD all nordic people in eastern Europe were called Rus, not only swedish varangians. See and check: “Familytreedna Carpatho-Rusyn DNA project” there are many I2a2a Dinaric members north as well as south.
Most I2a2a Dinaric members, are from Pomerania and the Ukraine. It is not surprising. Pomerania was the homeland of the Goths and the Ukraine their biggest settlement after the great migration. But a great number of different tribes from all over eastern areas joint the Goths as well. And centuries later, when the Goths finally arrived in Spain, it was basically their name that arrived the iberian peninsula. In Spain the Goths ruled over a huge area but provide only a small Gothic leadership, with their capital in Toledo. Wich was wiped out by the arabian conquest in the 8th century.
But after all, a few Goths from their Pomerian homelands survived in Spain. We can genetically trace back the Goths even into today's iberian peninsula. You can see the I2a2a Dinarics in the Familytreedna New Mexico project. All members have spanish ancestry and interestingly, they all belong to I2a2a Dinaric “north”. None of them is Diaric south.
Familytreedna New Mexico project:
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-15 11 13 13 13 11 30
Chavez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Gallegos Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Chavez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Martinez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Herrera Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torrez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Chavez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 13 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
The Goths had certainly more Y-DNA haplogroups then just I2a2a Dinaric, (likely R1a??? We dont´t know yet). But I2a2a Dinaric is the most obvious of all,
matching the Gothic people. So far, this haplogroup is the only comprehensible one. The only one striking so clear, because of the young estimated age.
We see enough evidence for a very strong connection between the Wielbark and Chernyakhov cultures (Goths, Rugii etc.) and the haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric.
Here is some mtdna from the Wilbark culture. (Unfortunately Y-DNA is very fragile and does not last very long).
Juras 2012:
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD H5 7028C, 16304C
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD H 7028C, CRS
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD W 2 samples 8251A, 16223T, 16292T
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD W 8251A, 16192T, 16223T, 16292T
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD U5b 7768G 16192T, 16270T
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD U3 12308G, 14139G, 16343G
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD H 5 7028C, CRS
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD H 7028C, 16093C, 16129A, 16316G
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD H5 7028C, 16153A, 16304C,
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD H 2 samples of 7028C, 16183C, 16189C
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD H 7028C, 16129A
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD J2a 10398G 16069T, 16126C, 16145A, 16231C, 16261T, 16299G
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD T2b 16126C, 16294T, 16296T, 16304C
Best wishes Claus
Attachments http://eng.molgen.org/download/file....337842be473245
The temporal aspect is missing from your analysis here. Why should we think that the Visigoths and Ostrogoths did not share subclades that split about 20,000 years ago? Surely the division between Visigoths and Ostrogoths is not so old.Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
Again, the temporal aspect makes no sense here. The Motala3/12 samples were on the M423 branch of I2, but since they were not apparently on a modern branch, they could have been nearly 20,000 years removed (or to take an average, probably about 15,000 years removed) from the modern branches. So what could they possibly have to say about an expansion that happened less that 3,000 years ago? At most, I see them informing us that I2a1b is a broadly Northern European clade... but that's no more evidence for the Goths than it is for the Slavs in the particular case of I2a-Din.Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
This is an overinterpretation of Nordtvedt's "not much more than 2000 years ago" comment. Sure, the Slavic expansions were more recent than that, but it's also true that they were not more than 2000 years ago. The 2000 years ago figure is from a rough estimate of the age of I2a-Din, which is our limiting factor in the spread of I2a-Din, of course. Naturally, populations can have an age of greater than 0 for a given haplogroup they carry immediately before an expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
First of all, it's nonsensical to use Nordtvedt's schematic with no temporal reference when we have good diversity analyses of I2a-Din which look closely at outliers and hotspots. Secondly, a strictly SE->NW migration of Slavs is a minority view, to put it charitably.Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
What do 6,000 to 10,000 years-removed cousin clades to I2a-Din have to do with whether or not I2a-Din is Slavic? Is that seriously when we're dating the Slavic ethnogenesis?Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
Uh, no. Ukraine has a lot of diversity and pretty high frequency, but Pomerania? Huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
I've done a lot of reading today and I have some studies/maps/historical references I can post as reference material to all of this but I'll give a brief overview until I get time to write it up properly.
1. I2a1a & I2a1b both originate in Sweden 10-15k years ago, L621(M423) and M26 originate sometime later.
2. In accordance with Gothic legend there is a great migration from Sweden sometime prior to 750 B.C. We then see a founder effect in 3 of the easternmost Germanic Tribes.
3. M26 Settles in Northern Germany and later becomes the tribe to be known as the Vandals.
4. In accordance with Gothic legend L621 gradually migrates south settling finally in Western Ukraine.
5. The Vandals invade the roman empire and establish their kingdom. Vandals are responsible for the M26 found everywhere in their kingdom, Iberia, Sardinia, North Africa ect.
6. The Goths migrate en masse south of the Danube to escape the invading Huns. Leaving their lands North of the Danube but not entirely. Spreading to all Balkan countries south of the Danube. Settling in Pannonia/Dalmatia south of the Danube in accordance with the Ostrogothic Kingdom.
7. Visigoths spread L621 to Iberia, not a lot found there but it has been found. Their impact significantly less than the Vandals.
Would that mean that Balkan clade of I2 are mosly Slavicized Ostrogoths?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e_Germanic.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-P5YoE5Ei6Q...europe+mig.jpg
http://www-it.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/cours...f_the_Huns.gif
Correlation between I2a1b and Slavic populations in the Balkans is very high.
Gothic language can't be found in the Balkans, not even in traces.
I2a1b has been the most numerous haplogroup in the Balkans for centuries. If it is of Gothic origin, how come several Paleo-Balkan languages have survived Slavic invasion but Gothic was clinically swept away?
The way I see it there are strong arguments against every theory which explains I2a1b origin in the Balkans, except the theory of Slavic expansion.
So maybe someone should try to tell us, what is wrong about the Slavic theory? WHY NOT SLAVS?
same way as illyrian language is missing, celt language in the alps, venetic language in Italy, Raetic language in the alp, trojan language in anatolia etc etc ...........I do not see your point!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
I can say, in reverse to your statement.............if a language exist today in an area, then these people are not the original ancient people of that area
There is a big difference. Today there are significant leftovers in those same regions, from the most of the languages you have written above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sile
And as I have written, Gothic leftovers don't exist in the Balkans, not even as a trace.
And again correlation between I2a1b and Slavic populations is huge.
So, please write, WHY NOT SLAVS?
Exactly, even the age of I2a-Dinaric goes in hand with age of Slavic expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
Perhaps if we spent 5 minutes researching an opinion before posting it on this board the level of discussion would be a little better.
since it seems LeBrok et all is incapable of using google/wikipedia I will provide you the text from the Gothic Language page here
Gothic is an extinct Germanic language that was spoken by the Goths. It is known primarily from the Codex Argenteus, a 6th-century copy of a 4th-century Bible translation, and is the only East Germanic language with a sizable text corpus. All others, including Burgundian and Vandalic, are known, if at all, only from proper names that survived in historical accounts, and from loanwords in other languages such as Portuguese, Spanish and French.
As a Germanic language, Gothic is a part of the Indo-European language family. It is the earliest Germanic language that is attested in any sizable texts, but lacks any modern descendants. The oldest documents in Gothic date back to the 4th century. The language was in decline by the mid-6th century, due, in part, to the military defeat of the Goths at the hands of the Franks, the elimination of the Goths in Italy, and geographic isolation (in Spain the Gothic language lost its last and probably already declining function as a church language when the Visigoths converted to Catholicism in 589).[2] The language survived as a domestic language in the Iberian peninsula (modern Spain and Portugal) as late as the 8th century, and in the lower Danube area and in isolated mountain regions in Crimea apparently as late as the early 9th century. Gothic-seeming terms found in later (post-9th century) manuscripts may not belong to the same language.
The existence of such early attested corpora makes it a language of considerable interest in comparative linguistics.
Influence
The reconstructed Proto-Slavic language features several apparent borrowed words from East Germanic (presumably Gothic).[12]
"And again correlation between I2a1b and Slavic populations is huge"
What do you mean?
In the Balkans, all nationalities which have more than 16% I2a1b use Slavic language.Quote:
Originally Posted by gyms
And opposite from that, all that have less than 16% are not Slavic (In the Balkans).
Please provide more details.Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
Proto-Slavic does not exist any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
WHY NOT SLAVS?
Well Romania has more than 16% I2a1b and does not use a Slavic language.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
Besides,South Slavic languages are not that closed to Eastern Slavic ,neither to West Slavic,for example,highest mutual intelligibility between a South Slavic language and an Eastern Slavic ,is between Bulgarian and Russian,about 75% common words.
I know that between Romanian and French there is 75% mutual intelligibility and I can not understand French,unless I learn it.
So I do not think you can treat Slavic speakers as a common ethnic people,for example Bulgarian folklore and so on is not closed to Russian folklore.
Russians do not have I2ab1 at high percentages,in lots of region.Same with Belarus.
I do not say that is not possible that some Slavic speakers tribes had some significant percentage of I2a1b,but that does not mean that "Slavs brought I2a1b in Balkans".
Romania is not in the Balkans.Quote:
Originally Posted by mihaitzateo
Also it is a kind of a special case, which requires its own detailed analysis. I assume many have read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_...ce_on_Romanian
The Balkan Peninsula, popularly referred to as the Balkans, is a geographical region of Southeast Europe. The region takes its name from the Balkan Mountains that stretch from the east of Bulgaria to the very east of Serbia.
The region is predominantly inhabited by Bulgarians, Croats, Bosniaks, Gorani, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbs, Slovenes, Romanians, Aromanians, Greeks, Albanians, Turks and other ethnic groups which present minorities in certain countries like the Romani and Ashkali.[1]
The Gagauz people are a Turkic[8] group living mostly in southern Moldova (Gagauzia), southwestern Ukraine (Budjak), south-eastern Romania (Dobrogea),[9] northeastern Bulgaria, Greece, Brazil, United States and Canada. The Gagauz are Orthodox Christians. There is a related ethnic group also called Gagavuz (or Gajal) living in the European part of northwestern Turkey.
Today Gagauz people outside Moldova live mainly in the Ukrainian regions of Odesa and Zaporizhia, as well as in Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Bulgaria, Greece, Romania, Brazil, Turkmenistan, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Georgia, Turkey[10] and the Russian region of Kabardino-Balkaria.
There are also nearly 20,000 descendants of Gagauzians living in the Balkan country of Bulgaria, as well as upwards of 3,000 living in the United States of America, Brazil and Canada.
I2a-Din=24-32%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations
Frequencies in some ethnic groups in Europe
Maybe those Ostrogoths that are marked on the last map already spoke Slavic language before arriving on Balkans?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
If I2a-Din is Gothic drift into the Slavic population, and it expanded after that drift occurred, wouldn't we still say that it expanded with Slavs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ike
One thing I don't think anybody is arguing is that I2a-Din was a majority haplogroup in the proto-Balto-Slavs from which Slavic populations originated. At some point, it had to have drifted from somewhere. It would be very interesting if that population turned out to be the Goths, although IMHO the Goths are slightly too northwestern and too temporally late to be the best candidates. Not to mention that we can follow apparently East Germanic subclades of other haplogroups, like some of the more eastern biased subclades of I1, and they don't match the spread of I2a-Din all that closely.
sparkey,how do you know that I2a-"Din" expanded with Slavs?I would like to see some scientific evidence for that.Not speculations.
I don't claim to know that it expanded with the Slavs, that is just my best guess. Scientific evidence for now is unfortunately limited to analysis of modern diversity and frequency. If that's not enough for you, you're out of luck for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by gyms
no, we would say it expanded with the gothic armies and it s confederates ..................we do not know how many ethnic peoples the goths absorbed into their society, but we know by historians, that the practice of annexation of tribes and peoples was common with the Goths. ie...the annexation and destruction of the sarmatians by the Goths.Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkey
who would ever say , it expanded with this or that linguistic group?
There are 2 scenario'sQuote:
One thing I don't think anybody is arguing is that I2a-Din was a majority haplogroup in the proto-Balto-Slavs from which Slavic populations originated. At some point, it had to have drifted from somewhere. It would be very interesting if that population turned out to be the Goths, although IMHO the Goths are slightly too northwestern and too temporally late to be the best candidates. Not to mention that we can follow apparently East Germanic subclades of other haplogroups, like some of the more eastern biased subclades of I1, and they don't match the spread of I2a-Din all that closely.
1 - The cimmerians lived in southern Ukraine centuries before the Sycthians and sarmatians kicked them out around 700BC, these cimmerians resettled in mostly 2 places , Pannonia in Hungarian/serbian lands and Cappodacia in Anatolia.........both around the year 700BC , a year we can easily say that the I2a-Din entered the Balkans
2- The illyrians where as we know a central European people, who moved slowly south into the Balkans. Beginning in the late bronze-age and finally reaching Montenegro in around 400BC.
Does this not match the I2a-Din found in these lands by numbers and percentage now?
I'm very skeptical of how much modern diversity and frequency tell us about what was happening in the past, unless we have historical records that indicate a relatively stable population situation for a lengthy period. I certainly wouldn't want to use modern Canadian DNA as evidence of what was happening here two or three thousand years ago. Yes, that's an extreme example, but if you look at how many population shifts appear to have happened in the Balkans over the last two or three thousand years, I think it's difficult to be sure which groups account for what genetic material in the current population. That's why I prefer info from old bones, and it's too bad there isn't much of that from the Balkans. And what little we do have, such as the two samples recently discussed on this forum, don't necessarily provide the results some might expect. Plus, with limited samples, we have no way of knowing what's representative. So I think it's difficult to draw any conclusions right now about a lot of DNA questions concerning the Balkans. I would have expected the Slavs to be more R1a, but if that's correct, Balkan Slavs aren't all that Slavic in their DNA. Which could actually be the case, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkey
It seems that what we need to distinguish I2a Din from the Slavs, is some evidence that I2a Din was Pre-Slavic in the Balkans.
Since Croatia is one of the best hotspots of I2a Din it seems like a great place to study.
Here is a slice taken from the "History of Croatia" Wikipedia page
After the Western Roman Empire collapsed in 476, with the beginning of the Migration Period, Julius Nepos shortly ruled his diminished domain from the Diocletian palace after his 476 flight from Italy.[11] The region was then ruled by the Ostrogoths up to 535, when Justinian I added the territory to the Byzantine Empire. Later, the Byzantines formed the Theme of Dalmatia in the same territory.
The Roman period ends with Avar and Croat invasions in the 6th and 7th centuries and the destruction of almost all Roman towns. Roman survivors retreated to more favourable sites on the coast, islands and mountains.[12] The city of Ragusa was founded by such survivors from Epidaurum.[13]
-Ragusa is now known as Dubrovnik.
-Croats are the Slavic Tribe responsible for the Slavicization of Dalmatia into the modern day Slavic nation of Croatia
If I2a Din spread to Croatia with the Slavic Croats then we would expect to see a positive correlation of I2a Din in the areas where the Croats settled and a negative one for where the native Romans at the time fled to.
So we would expect to see (I2a Din) Croats on the mainland, and some other mixture of roman survivors on the islands and mountains surrounding Ragusa.
Now lets look at the figures from this study on Y DNA in Croatia and see how it fits in to this, the study taken from Maciamo's own sources.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...992a.html#fig1
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5200992f1.jpg
Frequency No 95% CR I-M170 Croatian mainland 0.376 41 0.291–0.470 Krk 0.284 21 0.194–0.396 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.551 27 0.413–0.682 Hvar 0.659 60 0.557–0.749 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.537 72 0.453–0.620 G-M201 Croatian mainland 0.009 1 0.002–0.050 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.061 3 0.022–0.165 Hvar 0.011 1 0.003–0.058 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.104 14 0.064–0.168 F-M89 Croatian mainland 0.018 2 0.006–0.064 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.020 1 0.005–0.106 Hvar 0.011 1 0.003–0.058 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.015 2 0.005–0.052 R1a-SRY10831 Croatian mainland 0.339 37 0.257–0.433 Krk 0.378 28 0.276–0.493 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.265 13 0.162–0.403 Hvar 0.087 8 0.045–0.162 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.201 27 0.142–0.0277 R1b-M173 Croatian mainland 0.156 17 0.100–0.236 Krk 0.162 12 0.096–0.263 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.061 3 0.022–0.165 Hvar 0.011 1 0.003–0.059 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.015 1 0.005–0.052 P*-92R7 Croatian mainland 0.018 2 0.006–0.064 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.000 0 0 Hvar 0.140 13 0.085–0.227 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.060 8 0.026–0.104 E-SRY4064 Croatian mainland 0.055 6 0.026–0.115 Krk 0.068 5 0.030–0.149 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.041 2 0.013–0.137 Hvar 0.043 4 0.018–0.106 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.037 5 0.016–0.084 J-12f2 Croatian mainland 0.018 2 0.006–0.064 Krk 0.108 8 0.056–0.199 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.000 0 0 Hvar 0.033 3 0.012–0.091 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.022 3 0.008–0.064 K-M9 Croatian mainland 0.009 1 0.002–0.050 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.000 0 0 Hvar 0.000 0 0 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.015 2 0.005–0.052
So what do we see here?
There is a higher frequency of Haplogroup I in the samples taken from the Islands surrounding Ragusa(Dubrovnik), and a lower frequency of Haplogroup I on the Croatian mainland where the Slavic Croats settled.
Likewise we see a Higher Frequency of R1a on the Croatian mainland where the Croats settled and a lesser frequency on the islands surrounding Ragusa.
I think this is pretty compelling evidence that the high frequency Haplogroup I (I2a-Din) is Pre-Slavic in Croatia.
It's just a matter of agreement. We can also say like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkey
My "fear" is that it may be complicated than that. Small Gothic tribe comes down to Ukraine where they destroy Sarmatian kingdom. There they are culturally influenced by overwhelming surrounding R1a peasant population of Sarmatia. They settle there and experience a population boom. Centuries after they start pushing down to Balkans, evading the Huns. Some authors still call them Ostrogoths, but in fact they speak Slavic by now, and consider themselves Slavs.
I'm not saying that it actually happened like this, but until more reliable data, all these theories are possible...
http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/...-dinarics.html
I hope that people understand what this means - paleolithic continuity theory is dead.
I think you are on the right path here, but... You should not use only Croats (Croatia) in your analysis, but try to look at the Balkans as a whole. And on the map bellow you will see the pattern you are looking for. The previous native population retreated to those areas where E-V13 has a higher frequency.Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
Looking at R1a:Slavs as 1:1 connection is a trick. It messed up the minds of many people.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...roup-E-V13.gif
The correlation you speak about is linguistic, it counts for nothing in genetics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
Give me a genetic association with the origins of a slavic tribe from the polesie area ( all slavic scholars state this as the true origins of the slavs) and the people you talk about as being I2a-din.
Back to goths, my guess is that goths where primararily R1a with some I markers as discovered by Ken N ( he stated origins of an I marker in ancient east prussia ,this was discussed before on this forum ).
visigoths = pure goths , with Vandili people
ostrogoths = east goths, mixed people
and what percentage of I2a1b of slavs in the balkans know how to speak English?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
If as you say I2a-din and R1a was brought into the balkans by Slavs, then answer me what markers where with the people that where already living there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
The area was not empty of people
We finally have some useful SNPs to divide the very large Dinaric
haplogroup. One of the most important is S17250 and it is now available for
testing as an individual SNP at FTDNA. You can also order S17250 from
Thomas Krahn's http://www.yseq.net/ and no prior testing is required at
this company. And S17250 is included as part of the Chromo2 test at
BritainsDNA http://www.britainsdna.com/
Around 12 Dinarics have tested S17250 as part of Big Y or at YSEQ. All 5
Dinaric-South men were S17250+, and some Dinaric-North men were S17250+ and
other Dinaric-North men were S17250-. The division between Dinaric-South
and Dinaric-North is based on two STR markers and this division is not
always a perfect reflection of genetic history. Dinarics belong to
I-CTS5966 which is part of I-L621, I-M423, and I-P37 and they have been
known by many other haplogroup designations over the years.
Thanks to those Dinarics who have done Big Y or tested at YSEQ, and thanks
to Larry Mayka of the Polish Project and Zdenko Markovic of the I2a project
for analyzing the data. Please see our new Dinaric tree here
http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.htmland
please feel free to contact me for the most recent advice before you
order S17250 or any other test.
Bernie Cullen
one of the volunteer administrators, I2a Project
The URL didn't come out correctly. Here it is again:
http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.html
So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
course.
Besides S17250, I have requested from FTDNA individual SNP tests for the
following:
Y3548
Z16970
Z16971
YFC010724
Y3118
Z16983 (17558968)
From: Bernie Cullen
The case is not closed yet
E-V13Quote:
Originally Posted by Sile
J-M12
R1b-U152
R1b-M269(xL51)
J-M410
G2a
I'm not sure about the timeline of the multiple I1 SNPs which can be found in the Balkans.
In Romanian language common use words are either cognates with Romance languages,either cognates to Slavic languages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
So I highly doubt the theory which says that the "Slavs migrated in 6th century and they influenced Romanian language".
I will give a single example of word,to annoy the people who are saying Slavs were not existing in Balkans before 6th Century:
eye/s in Romanian - ochi .
Clearly cognate with :
Ukrainian,Bulgarian ochi (spell it oki to understand how it is pronounced) - eyes
Serbo-croatian - oci
etc
So it is clear that Romanian people and language were formed from Slavic people also.
Not possible to have basic words replaced,under the influence of settling people.
So,first,I do not agree with the theory of Slavic migration in Balkans,I agree partially .
I think some kind of Satem speakers,of a language that is closed to today South Slavic were living were today South Slavs are living before Roman Empire conquest.
As for I2a1b I think is very old ,some people that were here from thousands of year before Christ.
Notice that some genetic testing have show Thracian being very closed to Sardinians ,which have as most present paternal line a some kind of I2a.
So is very possible that on today land of Romania,Balkans were living some Italic speakers,after which Satem speakers came and conquered them.
Most Satem speakers were speaking some kind of proto-Slavic.In Romania was less influence in the language,this is why the language kept lots of words common with Romance languages.
Occhi - Italian - eyesQuote:
Originally Posted by mihaitzateo
Oculi - Latin - eyes
Hm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
You can see exactly which haplogroups were there before the Slavs and which ones came with the Slavs from this data. They created this study with the goal to prove paleolithic continuity of Haplogroup I in Croatia, but given we our current knowledge of the unlikeliness of paleolithic continuity all it does is show us which haplogroups were pre Slav.
Every Haplogroup that has a Higher frequency for "Croation mainlaind" than for "Brac-Hvar-Korkula" is Slav, every Haplogroup that has a Higher frequency for "Brac-Hvar-Korkula" than for "Croatian Mainland" is Pre-Slav.
Slav:
R1a-SRY
R1b-M173
Pre-Slav:
I-M170
G-M201
P*
J
The G/P*/J aren't really of any value because it is based off of <10 results. I think this study is only significant for I, R1a, and R1b.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5200992f1.jpg
Frequency No 95% CR I-M170 Croatian mainland 0.376 41 0.291–0.470 Krk 0.284 21 0.194–0.396 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.551 27 0.413–0.682 Hvar 0.659 60 0.557–0.749 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.537 72 0.453–0.620 G-M201 Croatian mainland 0.009 1 0.002–0.050 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.061 3 0.022–0.165 Hvar 0.011 1 0.003–0.058 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.104 14 0.064–0.168 F-M89 Croatian mainland 0.018 2 0.006–0.064 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.020 1 0.005–0.106 Hvar 0.011 1 0.003–0.058 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.015 2 0.005–0.052 R1a-SRY10831 Croatian mainland 0.339 37 0.257–0.433 Krk 0.378 28 0.276–0.493 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.265 13 0.162–0.403 Hvar 0.087 8 0.045–0.162 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.201 27 0.142–0.0277 R1b-M173 Croatian mainland 0.156 17 0.100–0.236 Krk 0.162 12 0.096–0.263 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.061 3 0.022–0.165 Hvar 0.011 1 0.003–0.059 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.015 1 0.005–0.052 P*-92R7 Croatian mainland 0.018 2 0.006–0.064 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.000 0 0 Hvar 0.140 13 0.085–0.227 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.060 8 0.026–0.104 E-SRY4064 Croatian mainland 0.055 6 0.026–0.115 Krk 0.068 5 0.030–0.149 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.041 2 0.013–0.137 Hvar 0.043 4 0.018–0.106 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.037 5 0.016–0.084 J-12f2 Croatian mainland 0.018 2 0.006–0.064 Krk 0.108 8 0.056–0.199 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.000 0 0 Hvar 0.033 3 0.012–0.091 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.022 3 0.008–0.064 K-M9 Croatian mainland 0.009 1 0.002–0.050 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.000 0 0 Hvar 0.000 0 0 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.015 2 0.005–0.052