How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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21-03-15, 02:13
Garrick

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Quote:

Originally Posted by clintCG

Slušaj 'vako ;) ...

Word of Eupedia admins is not holy and without errors. It says "could have been spread by Goths".
Z63 is actually very, very small part in our I1. All Z63 in Serbia and Montenegro descend from same Macura clan. And because their oldest origins are somewhere around Berane in Montenegro, I think they are descended from German Saxon miners, who came in large numbers to work in our medieval mines. Berane-Mojkovac was very important mining town- in medieval days it was called Brskovo ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brskovo ). Even its name is of German origin- "Biergsau", completely inhabited by Saxons, who even had their own priests and prince there. So it is most likely of Saxon origin, not of Gothic origin.

Most of our I1 is I1 P109, called "Drobnjak clan cluster", with value of 0 on STR481. Man with same value was found on Sicily, and Nordtvedt estimated that our carriers and he descend from same man who lived 850. He was definetly a Norman.
You can find all of this data on Serbian DNA project: http://poreklo.rs/srpski-dnk-projekat/naslovna/

I definetly do not expect that Normans (who left almost no influence at all) have more of their haplogroup than Goths (who, according to you, carried z63).
Since Z63 is left by medieval Saxon miners, and P109 by Normans, then we have to find what is Gothic haplogroup, because Goths left much, much more trace than both Normans and Saxons. And most logical theory is that I2a Dinaric came with them, because it perfectly matches their migrations, its age of expansion matches beginning of their migrations, and it also explains concentration pattern of I2a Dinaric in Yugoslavia. It also explains why dominant racial types found in Montenegro and Herzegovina are only found in Germanic peoples.
See all my previous posts.

I don't know why everyone expects Germanic migration-period tribes who came here to be so freaking high in I1, when even modern Germanic peoples (expect Scandinavians) rarely have it...

I repeat again- word of Eupedia mods is not holy, or without mistakes.

Give me reasons why would I2a Din be Thracian/Illyrian/whatever?
Do we find most diversity of I2a Din in proto-Thracian homeland? No. Do we have concentration pattern that fits their migrations? No. Did I2a Din form in their homeland? No!

On the other hand, we have TMRCA of I2a Din 2500 yrs ago in Poland, somewhere around Vistula- proto-homeland of Goths. I2a Din is estimated to have expanded drastically around 2000 years ago- which matches Gothic migrations.
And for gods sake, please understand that place where I2 M423 differentiated into Disles, Isles (found in Britain) and Dinaric simply does NOT match eastern Europe. In fact, from Motala12 bones we have evidence that I2a1b very possibly came from Scandinavia to continental Europe. See previous posts please.

I2a Din is highest in Herzegovina and western Montenegro (those numbers for Montenegro, as I already explained, included gypsies, Albanians, Bosniaks settled in eastern part).
It is also area where we find Germanic nordo-cromagnid "Borreby" racial type as dominant.

I2a Din in Romania is as high as it is in some parts of Ukraine- and IMO it is even more possibly Slavic than Thraco-Dacian.

One part of Goths living near Black Sea was actually enslaved by Huns and never came with rest to Balkans. That is why Gothic dialect survived in Crimea until 18th century.

And exactly in Black Sea area near Ukraine in Romania we have most carriers of I2a.
So I2a in Romania is not aboriginal. It is Gothic/Slavic.

Are we culturaly close? No. Linguistically? No. Anthropologically? No...

Do not understimate Maciamo and Eupedia. Maciamo et al. thoroughly well examine an issue before publication on website. Of course, everything is subject to criticism.

I gave only one example (Eupedia). Many other sources speak about I1 haplogroup as dominant in Goths. It is logical if Goths originating from Southern Scandinavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths).

For example you can see www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/
UPDATE4: y-Haplogroup I1 Dispersal/Expansion

One should keep in mind that the range and distribution of all haplogroups in Europe have been complicated by the comparatively recent Migration of "Barbarians" (before about 500 AD) and the Migration of "Vikings" (around 800 AD to 1100 AD). The "Barbarians" were mainly Germanic tribes from east of the Rhine and north of the Danube, comprising of the Goths (Visigoths and Ostrogoths), Vandals, Lombards, Burgundians, Franks, and Suebi etc. Also the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes; plus the non-Germanic Huns from Central Asia.

In pdf file authors give one of maps where you can track the movement of Goths (I1):

http://i.imgur.com/c2kzxWh.jpg

You can see movent of Goths from Scandinavia to East Europe, Balkans, Italy, Spain etc.

It is interesting tests provide evidence about I1 haplogrop in Goths.

For example FamilytreeDNA highlights project with two people from Crimea Gothic roots.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i1-ee/about/news

Our project tested two people who are descendants of the Crimean Goths, this kit № 228539 Afenko and kit № 228541 Aslanov. Their haplogroup (I1-M253) was determined in the course of scientific research laboratory Balanovsky.

Crimean Goths were those Gothic tribes who remained in the lands around the Black Sea, especially in Crimea. They were the least-powerful, least-known, and almost paradoxically, the longest-lasting of the Gothic communities. Their existence is well attested through the ages though the exact period when they ceased to exist as a distinct culture is unknown; as with the Goths in general, they may have been diffused with the surrounding peoples. In the Fourth Turkish letter by Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq, they are described as "a warlike people, who to this day inhabit many villages" though in the 5th century, Theodoric the Great failed to rouse Crimean Goths to support his war in Italy.

The descendants of Crimean Goths.
Urums, singular Urum (Greek: Ουρούμ Urúm, Turkish and Crimean Tatar: Urum, IPA: [uˈɾum]) is a broad historical term that was used by some Turkic-speaking peoples (Turks, Crimean Tatars) to define Greeks who lived in Muslim states, particularly in the Ottoman Empire and Crimea. In contemporary ethnography, the term Urum (or Urum Greek) applies only to Turk population.

Rumei - one of two ethno-linguistic groups Azov Greeks. Unlike Urums - carriers of the Turkic dialects - rumei speak dialects of Modern Greek language, dating back to the language of the Byzantine and poorly understood by the inhabitants of modern Greece.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--npvMOFs3t...uw/s1600/2.jpg

...

For Dacians/Romanias. Dacians spoke own language before romanization, probably one of variant Thracian. Dacian language was predominant in Dacia and Moesia. About romanization of Dacia you can read:

http://theartofpolemics.com/2014/09/...ndary-sources/

Today's Romanians are not Latin people by origin, but only linguistically, because they have replaced their mother language with Latin.

You can see haplogroups Romanians and South Slavs. And you can travel to Romania. In the greater part of Romania you will not notice the difference between Romanians and South Slavs. The language is not always good indicator of the closeness of the people (nations).
21-03-15, 03:33
Garrick

Quote:

Originally Posted by doku

Are you stoned?

Doku replied Besa

I gave a lot of sources where Illyrians largerly were identified as ancestors of people of Bosnia and Herzegovina, today's Bosniacs, (Western) Serbs, (South) Croats etc. Of course Balkans as "door of Europe" had a many different impacts and there are variety of haplogroups among Balkan carriers.
21-03-15, 04:27
Besa

I don't see how a group of people couldn't of only carried one haplogroup. The Celts are majorly known to of carried R1b, while the proto slavs are known to of carried R1a. I don't see a difference allot of time between Albanians and Romanians either. Most Romanians I've seen looked like Albanians. Even allot of Bosnians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrick

I gave a lot of sources where Illyrians largerly were identified as ancestors of Bosniacs, (Western) Serbs, (South) Croats etc. Of course Balkans as "door of Europe" had a many different impacts and there are variety of haplogroups among Balkan carriers.

The Serbs were also called Triballians, a thracian tribe, because they lived in the same region as them. It seems south slavs have been called by allot of names based on where they lived, that doesn't make it neccessarily a fact.

How do you explain the EV-13 and J2 spread across the balkans, including in Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs, and Romanians? While I2a and R1a is low in Albanians. As I said, only difference between Romanians and Albanians is the Romanians high i2a and r1a. There are over 300 words I think alike only in Romanian and Albanian. That doesn't mean ancestors of Albanians moved from there, they could of lived same area where they lived today, there could be a relation between thracian and illyrian. Lets be honest, Albanians are either descendants from Illyrians, Thracians or Dacians. there is also a thrako-illyrian proposal.

There are two languages today that are considered paleo-balkanic, and it's albanian and greek. Albanian was spoken in the balkans in ancient times, but it wasn't called ''albanian'', where else would it come from. The dialect split between geg (north-Albanians) and tosk (south-Albanians) happened before the proto-south slavic immigration., probably during roman empire.. Albanian has allot of borrowings from latin, including from the time of the Roman empire. Romanian is latinized. Albanians were in the balkans during roman empire, same area where they lived.. yet i2a and r1a, both associated with slavs is low in Albanians. Therefor I2a cannot be illyrian or thracian.

Most scholars agree Albanian is either from Thracian or Illyrian, tell me of another proposal that has been seriously debated? There isn't enough of Illyrian to compare it to but the surviving words are similar or the same.. Thracian has been linked with balto-slavic? So has Albanian, most of those similar lithuanian words were also similar in Albanian. the theory of thracian and balto-slavic is just a theory that scholars dismiss.

Quote:

The Albanian language is an Indo-European language in a branch by itself, sharing its branch with no other extant language. The other extant Indo-European languages in a branch by themselves are Armenian and, in some classifications, Greek. Though sharing lexical isoglosses with Greek, Balto-Slavic, and Germanic, the vocabulary of Albanian is quite distinct. Once hastily grouped with Germanic and Balto-Slavic based on the merger of PIE *ǒ and *ǎ into *ǎ in a supposed "northern group",^[9] Albanian has been proven to be distinct from these two because this vowel shift is only part of a larger push chainthat affected all long vowels.^[10] Albanian does share two features with Balto-Slavic languages: a lengthening of syllabic consonants before voiced obstruents and a distinct treatment of long syllables ending in a sonorant.^[11] Conservative features of Albanian include the retention of the distinction between active and middle voice, present tense, and aorist.
Albanian is considered to have evolved from an ancient Paleo-Balkan language, usually taken to be either Illyrian or Thracian, but this is debated. (See also Thraco-Illyrian and Messapian language.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language
21-03-15, 04:41
Besa

Here:

Quote:

The center of Albanian settlement remained the Mat river. In CE 1079 they are recorded farther south in the valley of the Shkumbinriver.^[26] The Shkumbin, a seasonal stream that lies near the old Via Egnatia, is approximately the boundary of the primary dialect division for Albanian, Tosk-Gheg. The characteristics of Tosk and Gheg in the treatment of the native and loanwords from other languages are evidence that the dialectal split preceded the Slavic migration to the Balkans,^[27]^[28]^[13] which means that in that period (5th to 6th centuries CE) Albanians were occupying pretty much the same area around the Shkumbin river, which straddled the Jireček Line.^[29]^[24]

if I2a was Illyrian/Thracian Albanians would be sky rocket high. Both r1a and I2a are associated with slavs, which lacks in Albanians. Haplogroup EV-13 and J2 is Thracian/Illyrian, it explains why its high in romanians and the rest of the balkans, because i2a carriers and r1a asimilated them when they migrated to the balkans. While some must of fled to the mountains or just co-existed and survived.

take a look at this document: common Albanian and Romanian words:

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Comm..._and_Loanwords

take also a look at some of the last pages, most of the words are dacian origin, similarities in aromanian, romanian and albanian.
21-03-15, 05:02
Besa

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=no

Quote:

The similarities between the Albanian and Romanian languages are acknowledged by all researchers focusing on this
topic.

Again, the only difference between Albanians and Romanians, is Romanians have higher genes associated with slavic speaking countries, their ancestors might of been in contact with balto-slavs and as its claimed (goths or sarmatians one of these i2a carriers) only difference between Bulgarians, Macedonian slavs and Albanians is.. Albanians have low I2a and r1a.. same goes for Albanians and Serbs.
21-03-15, 05:05
Besa

But I don't see how they came to the conclusion that some of those words are in slavic origin? It might even be the other way around, Thracian might of influenced balto-slavic, or even proto-albanian might of influenced south-slavic, it's more of a credible theory if you look at the gene pool.

Some of those words could even be in greek origin, like Luan - Leo - Lion or even the opposite.. I don't know how they came to the conclusion of who loaned from who...

regardless, there are hundreds of Romanian - Albanian words that are apparently from Dacian-Thracian. You can find many thracian words and even Illyrian.
21-03-15, 05:15
Besa
Albanian-Illyrian:
Quote:
Andena/Andes/Andio/Antis - personal Illyrian names based on a root-word and- or ant-, found in both the southern and the Dalmatian-Pannonian (including modern Bosnia and Herzegovina) onomastic provinces; cf. Alb. andë (northern Albanian dialect, or Gheg) and ëndë (southern Albanian dialect or Tosk) "appetite, pleasure, desire, wish";Andi proper name, Andizetes, an Illyrian people inhabiting the Roman province of Panonia.
aran "field"; cf. Alb. arë; plural ara
Ardiaioi/Ardiaei, name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. ardhja "arrival" or "descent", connected to hardhi "vine-branch, grape-vine", with a sense development similar to Germanic *stamniz, meaning both stem, tree stalk and tribe, lineage. However, the insufficiency of this theory is that so far there is no certainty as to the historical or etymological development of either ardhja/hardhi or Ardiaioi, as with many other words.
Bilia "daughter"; cf. Alb. bijë, dial. bilë
Bindo/Bindus, an Illyrian deity from Bihać, Bosnia and Herzegovina; cf. Alb. bind "to convince" or "to make believe", përbindësh "monster".
bounon, "hutt, cottage"; cf. Alb bun
brisa, "husk of grapes"; cf. Alb bërsí "lees, dregs; mash" ( < PA *brutiā)
Barba- "swamp", a toponym from Metubarbis; possibly related to Alb. bërrakë "swampy soil"
can- "dog"; related to Alb. qen
Daesitiates, a name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. dash "ram", corresponding contextually with south Slavonic dasa "ace", which might represent a borrowing and adaptation from Illyrian (or some other ancient language).
mal, "mountain"; cf. Alb mal
bardi, "white"; cf. Alb bardhë
drakoina "supper"; cf. Alb. darke, dreke
drenis, "deer"; cf. Alb dre, dreni
delme "sheep"; cf. Alb dele, Gheg dialect delme
dard, "pear"; cf. Alb dardhë
Hyllus (the name of an Illyrian king); cf. Alb. yll (hyll in some northern dialects) "star", also Alb. hyj "god", Ylli proper name.^[74]sīca, "dagger"; cf. Alb thikë or thika "knife"
Ulc-, "wolf" (pln. Ulcinium); cf. Alb ujk "wolf", ulk (Northern Dialect)
loúgeon, "pool"; cf. Alb lag, legen "to wet, soak, bathe, wash" ( < PA *lauga), lëgatë "pool" ( < PA *leugatâ), lakshte "dew" ( < PA laugista)
mag- "great"; cf. Alb. i madh "big , great"
mantía "bramblebush"; Old and dial. Alb mandë "berry, mulberry" (mod. Alb mën, man)
rhinos, "fog, mist"; cf. Old Alb ren "cloud" (mod. Alb re, rê) ( < PA *rina)
Vendum "place"; cf. Proto-Alb. wen-ta (Mod. Alb. vend)
21-03-15, 05:23
Besa

Many of these Dacian words are even the same in illyrian.. if there were more texts of illyrian and thracian it would be easier to prove that the Albanians are the surviving thrako-Illyrians. The Dardanians are said to of been a thrako-illyrian mix... Dacian is considered a dialect of Thracian..
21-03-15, 05:43
Garrick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Besa

I don't see how a group of people couldn't of only carried one haplogroup. The Celts are majorly known to of carried R1b, while the proto slavs are known to of carried R1a. I don't see a difference allot of time between Albanians and Romanians either. Most Romanians I've seen looked like Albanians. Even allot of Bosnians.

The Serbs were also called Triballians, a thracian tribe, because they lived in the same region as them. It seems south slavs have been called by allot of names based on where they lived, that doesn't make it neccessarily a fact.

How do you explain the EV-13 and J2 spread across the balkans, including in Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs, and Romanians? While I2a and R1a is low in Albanians. As I said, only difference between Romanians and Albanians is the Romanians high i2a and r1a. There are over 300 words I think alike only in Romanian and Albanian. That doesn't mean ancestors of Albanians moved from there, they could of lived same area where they lived today, there could be a relation between thracian and illyrian. Lets be honest, Albanians are either descendants from Illyrians, Thracians or Dacians. there is also a thrako-illyrian proposal.

There are two languages today that are considered paleo-balkanic, and it's albanian and greek. Albanian was spoken in the balkans in ancient times, but it wasn't called ''albanian'', where else would it come from. The dialect split between geg (north-Albanians) and tosk (south-Albanians) happened before the proto-south slavic immigration., probably during roman empire.. Albanian has allot of borrowings from latin, including from the time of the Roman empire. Romanian is latinized. Albanians were in the balkans during roman empire, same area where they lived.. yet i2a and r1a, both associated with slavs is low in Albanians. Therefor I2a cannot be illyrian or thracian.

Most scholars agree Albanian is either from Thracian or Illyrian, tell me of another proposal that has been seriously debated? There isn't enough of Illyrian to compare it to but the surviving words are similar or the same.. Thracian has been linked with balto-slavic? So has Albanian, most of those similar lithuanian words were also similar in Albanian. the theory of thracian and balto-slavic is just a theory that scholars dismiss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language

I2a is lower only in Geg Albanians, all other people in the Balkans (including Tosk Albanians) have higher percentage of I2a. Romanians have 26%, Geg Albanians (in Kosovo) only 2.5%. It shows different origins today's Geg Albanian population, compared with other Balkan population.

Thracians have not dissapeared. They were carriers of several haplogroups, among them I2a, and today South Slav people and Romanians have significant amount these haplogroup. Geg Albanians don't have.

Today's Serbs, and other South Slavs are descedents Thracians, Illyrians, Slavs, Celts etc... Balkans was "door of Europe" and it is logical that many people have stayed and mixed.

About Illyrians and connection with Bosnia and around, I gave sources and you can read it. Illyrians probably were I2a carriers, similar to Thracians, you can see in Eupedia. But in this moment nobody can give percentages. Thracians probably had I2a, E-V13, R1a etc.

For R1b carriers in the Balkans there are more branches. R1b carriers among Albanians (16% in Albania) are mostly R1b ht35, called Armenian haplotype. This haplogroup is from South Caucasus and Anatolia.

Latin words in Albanian language are borrowed from the Romanian (you can see for example Georgiev). Albanian and Greek are different, and Albanians are people of the continent, not of the shore like Greeks. And linguists found similarities betwen Albanian and Armenian. It is interesting that accent some words in Albanian and Russian is similar (in South Slavic is different!).

How we can link these specifities. Here in forum there is a assumption that people with Armenian R1b ht35 haplotype came from Caucasus to the today Ukraine, Moldavia, Romania and mixed with (numerous) E-V13 haplogroup carriers. Later, as they moved southward, they mixed with carriers of other haplogroups. For example Dienekes gave assumption that J2 carriers very lately entered in today's Albanian population.

Haplogroups have changed the understanding origin and movement of different populations, and some earlier conceptions have proved wrong. We still do not know much, but the science and new knowledge is advancing.

For example, Illyrian was Centum and today's Albanian is Satem as Armenian, Slavic (and probably Thracian and Dacian).

You could see that Austrian scholars several years ago showed that link between today's Albanians and Illyrians don't exist.

The part of problem is because children, especially in Balkans, learn wrong (own) history. And after school when become people, they don't want to hear another opinions and evidence. For example, there is jealousy in the Balkans to the Greeks and attempts of assumption of Greek history and culture. Ancient Greeks gave invaluable contribution to human civilization and it must be respected.
21-03-15, 05:49
Besa

It has nothing to do with jealousy. I think it's rather the opposite. in Albania i2a is 12% of tested ones? the tosk as I said could be from spread of Serbian empire, they might of settled there too, I know for a fact its true. where else did this i2a come from? The Gegs lived in mountains where Serbian empire did not reach.

Take a look at the documents I showed you, all the Dacian words similar only in Albanian and Aromanian and Romanian, forget the latin words or the slavic. But the latin words prove the Albanians were there before slavic immigration at the same place, both Aromanians and Romanians have similar latin loan words... scroll down some of the last pages, most of those words are Dacian origin.. You are ignoring evidence. All the quotes I showed you. and the documents, take a nice look. take a look at some of the Albanian-Illyrian words.

I don't see how connection between south-slavs and Illyrians exist besides at all, Croats and Serbs carry the same names of the ones who immigrated to the balkans, there is even mention of proto-croats and serbs living in carpathian mountains, or the area around there... same regions where I2adin is high or is spread. historical evidence, i've already posted this. the claim that I2a is Illyrian is the only arguement I see? What is the origin of Gegs then? There were mostly Illyrians, thracians, Dacians and greeks living in the balkans and also celts... phrygians and paionians.. which one of these is it?

You are just mixing things up saying Albanians have different origin, and then Gegs, like they came from mars or something? There are only two balkan languages today that exist that are considered paleo-balkanic, and it's Albanian and Greek. the rest went through latinization (Romanian and Aromanian)

A language can also become sentum or satem... I don't think There is enough of illyrian to conclude it's branch. As I said Albanian might be a branch of thrako-illyrian.

Yes, one should respect history instead of trying to forge it and steal the identity of people. I'm not stealing ancient greek history, the ancient greeks were majorly ev-13 and j2 carriers, allot of it in north africa and italy is from them, albanian/greek settlers, and also the messapians, an illyrian people, same region where they lived EV-13 and J2 is high. the r1a and i2a in greeks is from slavic speakers. As for the austrian scholars, allot of it is propganda. they claimed Albanian language is 3000 years old if i remember correctly and that it formed the south slavic languages? that's why I say most of these claimed slavic loan words might not be so. They have documents of Albanian-Messapian.. Albanian-Illyrian, Albanian-thracian... I've checked their site. its hard to find allot about illyrians because the illyrians left nothing... of course you leave ''lost for words'', in bosnia only thing you can find is a pyramide.

Illyrians did not speak Slavic, I don't see how some of the illyrian tribes went through latinization and then slavicization.... the south slavic language would be much different, there would be much more latin influence and influence from other languages. Many of the tribes that lived in Croatia and bosnia were not even Illyrians, but Celts and some are of unknown origin but not considered illyrian.

I don't even understand how people can be so blind :) It's like there is a conspiracy going on against Albanians, from this site and from the majority of people. it's like you make up any excuse, ''different origin'' , from mars?

Ken nordtvedt is right, i2a comes from a newly migration to the balkans.
21-03-15, 06:23
Besa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_of_Serbs.png

Although the map is wrong, Dardania area was conquered by Serbian empire 13th century, they were actually invited in Bosnia, if i'm not mistaken.. this is the spread of I2a and r1a.. actually, it is disputed if they were invited or not. All sources have different opinions but similar. and the above map i tihnk the light red is where they settled first because it is said they lived next to croats and they settled in todays croatia, so it must of been bosnia?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...serbs03_01.png

This is how east Romanians got high i2a, and ukraine/moldova, the exact exact same area.. Proto-Romanians came into contact with Sarmatians or goths. one of these the people around the region who carried i2a and r1a. proto-romanians came into contact with balto slavs too.. the proto-romanians were first high EV-13, J2
21-03-15, 06:35
Besa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_..._of_the_Croats
21-03-15, 09:10
Maleth

Quote:

Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

E-V13 is from North Africa,

It would not have been a problem if E-V13 came from North Africa or the Amazon, but there is only 1% in the whole of North Africa and that is mostly through Balkan (Greek) expansion to the area.
21-03-15, 09:30
doku

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrick

I gave a lot of sources where Illyrians largerly were identified as ancestors of people of Bosnia and Herzegovina, today's Bosniacs, (Western) Serbs, (South) Croats etc. Of course Balkans as "door of Europe" had a many different impacts and there are variety of haplogroups among Balkan carriers.

Garrick, I agree with you. There have been several waves of migration R1a1 and I2a Din to the Balkans. The last Slovenian DNA work from 2014 talking about that. The last wave was with the Slavs and was not as massive as previously thought.

Besa, nation in the Western Balkans are religious (primarily) and political structures created at beginning of the 19th century. What is White Serbs and White Croats? That's nonsense created by the nationalist historiography to promote the theory of blood and soil. Genetics says another. If you take ten most important families of Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks in Herzegovina and follow their genealogy in the last 500 years, we will come to one tribe or one mountain village (katun ili džemat). That is the real reason for the high concentration I2a Din in the Herzegovina.
21-03-15, 15:06
Besa

Quote:

Originally Posted by doku

Garrick, I agree with you. There have been several waves of migration R1a1 and I2a Din to the Balkans. The last Slovenian DNA work from 2014 talking about that. The last wave was with the Slavs and was not as massive as previously thought.

Besa, nation in the Western Balkans are religious (primarily) and political structures created at beginning of the 19th century. What is White Serbs and White Croats? That's nonsense created by the nationalist historiography to promote the theory of blood and soil. Genetics says another. If you take ten most important families of Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks in Herzegovina and follow their genealogy in the last 500 years, we will come to one tribe or one mountain village (katun ili džemat). That is the real reason for the high concentration I2a Din in the Herzegovina.

If there have been different waves, it fits with the goth theory... they came in many waves.

it is recent immigration to the balkans. This explains why Albanians are low in both, i2adin and r1a, particularly Gegs (north-albanians) because when these immigrations happened they fled to the mountains. North-Albania/kosovo (Rugova mountains, drenica mountains) area are mountanious lands... you should see where people live, there are villages/towns in the mountains of north-albania.

If i2a is illyrian explain why its lower in Serbia area while peaking in Croatia and bosnia? allot of those tribes were not even illyrians, like the liburnians. there lived illyrians in south serbia too, how come lower i2a there? how come so low i2a around dardania? if its thracian/illyrian? how come so many slavic countries exist and all are high i2a and r1a? but at the same time they have EV-13 and j2?

I already showed you the document Albanian-Romanian-Aromanian-Dacian connection, allot of those words are thrako-illyrian too. scroll down, you'll see most words are from dacian/thracian. does south slavic have these connections? These are not coincidence. Both you and garrick are just making excuses. How it of loaned from Romanian? the origin is dacian, that means albanians were neighbors of dacians if they loaned, and we all know thracians and dacians were the same people, living next to related illyrians, in dardania there lived illyrians, thracians, and celts... all majorly kosovar albanian haplogrups, r1b, ev-13, j2...the proto serbs and proto croats is a historical fact recorded even by the Romans. its already been posted. Even most scholars agree Albanian language is either from Illyrian or Thracian-Dacian.

Actually genetics say i2adin came to the balkans ca, 2000-1400 years ago with the 2nd slavic immgiration. thats why this thread exists, there is historical proof.. while some insist it's illyrian/Thracian, which its not, or else Albanians would be higher. every other south slavic nation is high i2a and r1a except for Albanians because they fled these immigrations. The romanians and vlachs are high i2a because they came in contact with people around the carpathian mountains carrying i2a, other than that there is not much difference between Albanians and other people, except they less of slavic associated genes.

look at EV-13 it's spread across the balkans, with least in north croatia where the proto croats settled. You tell me how it got there? I can tell you, it was there during roman empire when i2a din came.

Not thracian-dacian not illyrian... you tell me where Albanians came from? Even Albanian mythology is close to thracian and illyrian, and both of these are close to ancient greek, same is Albanian. Same is allot of costumes and culture that Albanians share with ancient greeks. everyone knows illyrians and thracians lived next to greeks.

Have you seen how Albanians wear a white hat, egg shaped? this hat is from ancient balkanic times. used both by ancient greeks, dacians, illyrians, thracians, phrygians...

Its like you're trying to make up a non-balkanic origin of Albanians when they are more ancient than south slavs, there is a reason why you speak slavic. Albanians have more to do with the balkans. there are two languages today considered ancient balkanic, its albanian and greek.. only connection i see with south slavs is the claim of i2a, and some pyramid in bosnia, probably created by proto-albanians.... so all dacians, thracians, illyrians carried i2a? illyrians only carried i2a? then i2a would be much higher all around balkans, even albanians.. its non existent in Gegs, both i2a and r1a, slavic associated genes, so where did Gegs come from? Mars? Jupiter? some avoided these immigrations, while many were asimilated around montenegro area, where E is high.. Please stop lying to yourself and admit the truth. its highest peak is in croatia and bosnia where proto serbs and croat settled and in carpathian mountains, the spread of i2a across balkans comes from slavic immigrations and the serbian empire.

As I said before the r1a and J2 in Romanians and vlachs is from contact with people around the carpathian mountains and north of the romanian border. there lived balto-slavs, sarmatians/scythians, goths, etc..

The split between Gegs and Tosks preceeds the slavic immigrations, so they lived in the same area... meaning they don't have different ''origin''... the higher i2a in some comes from slavic immigrations/Serbian empire.
21-03-15, 16:09
Besa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maleth

It would not have been a problem if E-V13 came from North Africa or the Amazon, but there is only 1% in the whole of North Africa and that is mostly through Balkan (Greek) expansion to the area.

haplogroup E came from africa. EV-13 is a sub, it originated in the balkans.
21-03-15, 16:10
mihaitzateo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Besa

EV-13 isn't from Africa... haplogroup E is from africa... ev-13 was spread by ancient greeks in north africa,... in anatolia EV-13 could of come from balkanic immigrations and deportations, millions of Albanians live there as they were deported during the yugoslav era to turkey. And also from Greek Muslims...

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/conten...roup-E-V13.gif

haplogroups have nothing neccesarily to do with hair color. I know people with EV-13 who look Irish. and it might not even be a fact, as they could of come in contact with celts and that claim could be based off of that..... there are people in the balkans still with red hair. you can find people from the middle east with red hair too.. I didn't say south slavs came only with i2a, they also broght r1a.. my theory is that they were slavicized sarmatian tribes i2a and r1a as the romans quoted, some mention them as slavs others as sarmatians... I don't think thracians carried one haplogroup.. if they carried r1a it would be much higher.. r1a was brought by slavic immigrations first one (sclaveni , antes) 2nd one (proto-serbs and croats)

Besa , this is a serious forum, not an "Aryan propaganda"board.
Egypt if you search in history was thousands of years ahead of Indo-Europeans as civilization.
From ancient Egypt E-V13 came. Or E people came and they suffered a mutation to E-V13.
As for J2 that came from Middle-East which was also much more advanced that Indo-European speakers.
Greeks were just some Indo-European speakers that came and conquered the advanced , civilized people from where they settled.
Please go study first known laws in the world are in the Middle East.

Albanians are Indo-European speakers very likely the people that brought Albanian language were R1B or R1A or both.
21-03-15, 16:16
mihaitzateo

@Besa : Aromanians are related to lots of J2,between 20% and 40%.
No Aromanian ever joined Islamic religion.
21-03-15, 16:57
Besa

Quote:

Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

@Besa : Aromanians are related to lots of J2,between 20% and 40%.
No Aromanian ever joined Islamic religion.

Who are these they are related to? How did they get J2 and E? they differ from Alb because of higher i2a and r1a. my point is Illyrians and Thracians carried EV-13 and J2. proto-Romanians are from Dacians.

I don't really care about your feelings or how you feel about muslims or about man made fairytales.. History is history and it doesn't really change, facts are facts. I'm not calling Albanians - Aromanians or Romanians or vice versa, because there is too much i2a and r1a. The way I see it, Albanians are the surviving Thraco-Illyrians, while Aromanians and Romanians, and greeks are mixed with slavs (Not offending) and you complain about muslims? The Slavs who immigrated, the first wave, killed people, the Serbian empire killed people.... I'm just establishing a linguistical and historical point, about the illyrians, thracians and dacians and their relation to EV-13 and J2. I can see people in this forum have problems, it's like talking to walls.. but hey, you cannot steal history and other peoples identity. I'm not islamic, I'm an atheist. You would convert to if they killed your family, raped women before killing them, made you pay money you don't have: there are more muslims of slavic origin, they split because of different religion, why you think Pomaks exist? Gorani? Bosniak Muslims etc? although maybe Bosniak muslims might of been catholics before.. there are million greek muslims, Albanians didn't really split despite of religion. Christians yugoslav and greek authorities deported muslims to turkey,, because someone converted to islam doesnt mean they were ottoman collaborates, people converted to be left alone. you should study some Albanian history.. ALbanians have dozzens of heroes who fought against ottomans. The ottomans were like islamic state. they killed millions of people. they kidnapped kids, greeks, albanians, serbs, bosniaks, trained them and many of the leaders and soldiers were from these people...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomaks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croat_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims_(nationality)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania

Quote:

Religious observance and practice is generally lax and polls have shown that, compared to other countries, fewer Albanians consider religion to be a dominant factor in their lives.

The same in Kosovo.

You're religious nuts, not everyone cares about man made fairytales.. the way I see it. Christians in the balkans are bigger problem than muslims, who are victims of deportation.
21-03-15, 17:48
clintCG

Quote:

I gave only one example (Eupedia). Many other sources speak about I1 haplogroup as dominant in Goths. It is logical if Goths originating from Southern Scandinavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths).

Please, read previous posts before commenting...
There is only one source claiming Scandinavian origin of Goths- Jordanes' Getica. And in Getica Jordanes made many mistakes- such as identifying Dacian Geats with Goths. Part of Gothic arrival from Scandinavia is mythological- Goths coming from Scandinavia in 3 longboats under king Berig (90 people max). So- it is only legendary.

I do think that their distant ancestors came from Scandinavia- but it was much, much earlier than thought.
Even in 4th century BC they lived in mainland Europe. From Wikipedia:
"Pliny[31] recounts a report of Pytheas, an explorer who visited Northern Europe in the 4th century BC., that the "Gutones, a people of Germany," inhabit the shores of an estuary of at least 6,000 stadia called Mentonomon (i.e., the Baltic Sea), where amber is cast up by the waves."

If they came from Scandinavia, I would not place their arrival later than 500 B.C.
They did carry some I1, like other Germanic peoples, but I think main haplogroup in them was I2a Din. We have continuity of I2a1 (and I2a1b*) from Motala 6000. B.C to Ajvide 2000. B.C, and some bones suggesting that I2a1b* from Motala is ancestor of Isles, Disles, and Dinaric- so I think it is quite possible that I2a1b M423 came to mainland Europe from Scandinavia.

I already explained that most of what Eupedia authors describe as "Gothic" actually comes from medieval Saxon miners, not from Goths.

Those two individuals tested can in no way be classified as "sure descendants of Crimean Goths", and their I1 can be from Rus' conquerors as well.

Sources that call us "Illyrian" do so because we live in ex-Roman province of Illyria, not because we are Illyrian...

There is almost nothing that contributes to "Illyro/Dacian/Thracian" theory". I2a Dinaric is most likely from Slavic or Gothic sources.
21-03-15, 17:57
Garrick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maleth

It would not have been a problem if E-V13 came from North Africa or the Amazon, but there is only 1% in the whole of North Africa and that is mostly through Balkan (Greek) expansion to the area.

There are three assumptions:
(1) E-V13 originated in the Middle East
(2) E-V13 originated in Anatolia
(3) E-V13 originated in Balkans.

Of course, E-V13 is subclade of E-M78, which is Northern African (Egypt) haplogroup.

My opinion is when early farmers (mostly E-V13 and J-M12) came to the Balkans, haplogroup E-V13 has already was formed. Probably it originated from Middle East, but and Anatolia can be country of origin. There are opinions that early farmers moved to the Caucasus and over the coast of the Black sea, and today's areas of Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania came to the Balkans, but I think probability of this assumption is less.
21-03-15, 17:58
Besa

Quote:

Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

Besa , this is a serious forum, not an "Aryan propaganda"board.
Egypt if you search in history was thousands of years ahead of Indo-Europeans as civilization.
From ancient Egypt E-V13 came. Or E people came and they suffered a mutation to E-V13.
As for J2 that came from Middle-East which was also much more advanced that Indo-European speakers.
Greeks were just some Indo-European speakers that came and conquered the advanced , civilized people from where they settled.
Please go study first known laws in the world are in the Middle East.

Albanians are Indo-European speakers very likely the people that brought Albanian language were R1B or R1A or both.

This isn't Aryan propganda. There is barely r1a in Albanians. Indo-European languages could of come from Anatolia, Greeks, are majorly ev-13 and j2, the i2a and r1a comes from slavs... ancient greeks were ev-13 and j2 but still greek is indo-european language, so is armenian and iranian.

You're still ignoring the dacian related words, the documents I posted, take a look and scroll down... there is a reason why Albanians have low i2a and r1a, use your brain a bit and maybe you will find the answer, I already posted the answer. Because they came from somewhere else? There is no historical record of any immigration, so we can assume they lived where they lived, added with the latin roman influence.

Some of you people haven't even done genetic tests, you could be EV-13 and J2... what if you're a Serb with EV-13, or maybe a croat or Bosniak? What would you say then? EV-13 is Illyrian/Thracian? How did these people get EV-13?

I know of a group with EV-13 and there are plenty of Slavic people with EV-13, both Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks, macedonian slavs, bulgarians etc...
21-03-15, 18:13
Besa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrick

There are three assumptions:
(1) E-V13 originated in the Middle East
(2) E-V13 originated in Anatolia
(3) E-V13 originated in Balkans.

Of course, E-V13 is subclade of E-M78, which is Northern African (Egypt) haplogroup.

My opinion is when early farmers (mostly E-V13 and J-M12) came to the Balkans, haplogroup E-V13 has already was formed. Probably it originated from Middle East, but and Anatolia can be country of origin. There are opinions that early farmers moved to the Caucasus and over the coast of the Black sea, and today's areas of Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania came to the Balkans, but I think probability of this assumption is less.

If the last one was true, it would mean i2adin wasn't there. Anything else wouldn't make sense. It doesn't make sense either way..

Quote:

In 1647, Dutch linguist and scholar Marcus Zuerius van Boxhorn noted the similarity among Indo-European languages, and supposed that they derived from a primitive common language he called Scythian. He included in his hypothesis Dutch, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Persian, and German, later adding Slavic, Celtic, and Baltic languages. However, Van Boxhorn's suggestions did not become widely known and did not stimulate further research.

There are other opinions.

Take a nice read here, wikipedia is updated all the time by intelligent people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

Take a look at the languages, spoken in ancient times, their relations and how i2a doesn't fit at all.. for example Ancient-Macedonian - related to greek, illyrian and thracian? How could i2a be illyrian/Thracian? It would be much higher around the area. yet lacks in Albanians. Can you connect macedon language with chinese? How could the illyrians of had a northern origin?

Or how about Paeonian? todays fyrom, linked with Illyrian-Thracian-Greek? I2a would be much higher if these people carried i2adin... it's mostly high in south-slavic speaking people, it lacks in Albanian.. this doesn't propose a different origin of Albanians as you claim, it proposes that i2a and R1a are newly immigrations which Albanians fled, except for some intermarriages between noble people during the middle ages... there were many principalities, and albanian noble people married for example noble people from Zeta (montenegro) some of these were even called Albanians and sometimes Serbs like the Balsic family and the Crnojevic.
21-03-15, 18:16
Tomenable

The map of dispersal of I1 posted by Garrick is already outdated, because we know that I1 was not present in prehistoric Scandinavia.

Already in 2014 it was discovered that I1 was present in Neolithic Central Europe, in LBKT culture (Linear Pottery in Transdanubia):

Check I1 M253 Balatonszemes-Bagódomb [individual BAB6] here: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

Map (the place where Neolithic I1 was found is marked as 8 - note that this I1 is about as old as the TMRCA age of I1 haplogroup):

http://s18.postimg.org/f6g88wkvr/LBKT_I1.png

And here is my map showing the distribution of types of Y-DNA discovered so far in Stone Age burials in Europe:

The oldest I1 (and the only one from Stone Ages) comes from that archaeological site of the LBKT culture:

http://s12.postimg.org/c79ohwcjx/R1a_R1b_Russia.png

Eupedia says:

Quote:

However, evidence emerged (Szécsényi-Nagy et al. 2014) from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary that haplogroup I1 was in fact present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion. A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries.

So I1 haplogroup clearly originally migrated into Scandinavia, and not from Scandinavia - contrary to what Garrick suggested.
21-03-15, 18:28
Tomenable

By the way:

Populations most closely resembling (in autosomal DNA) prehistoric Scandinavians, are modern Poles (1st) and modern Swedes (2nd):

Source:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.de/2012/04...cally.html?m=1

That said, both in modern Sweden and in modern Poland Y-DNA haplogroups are much different than those in prehistoric Sweden.

So probably we both inherited this autosomal prehistoric Scandinavian-like component via maternal lineages (mtDNA).

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