http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/...-dinarics.html
I hope that people understand what this means - paleolithic continuity theory is dead.
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http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/...-dinarics.html
I hope that people understand what this means - paleolithic continuity theory is dead.
I think you are on the right path here, but... You should not use only Croats (Croatia) in your analysis, but try to look at the Balkans as a whole. And on the map bellow you will see the pattern you are looking for. The previous native population retreated to those areas where E-V13 has a higher frequency.Quote:
Originally Posted by motzart
Looking at R1a:Slavs as 1:1 connection is a trick. It messed up the minds of many people.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...roup-E-V13.gif
The correlation you speak about is linguistic, it counts for nothing in genetics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
Give me a genetic association with the origins of a slavic tribe from the polesie area ( all slavic scholars state this as the true origins of the slavs) and the people you talk about as being I2a-din.
Back to goths, my guess is that goths where primararily R1a with some I markers as discovered by Ken N ( he stated origins of an I marker in ancient east prussia ,this was discussed before on this forum ).
visigoths = pure goths , with Vandili people
ostrogoths = east goths, mixed people
and what percentage of I2a1b of slavs in the balkans know how to speak English?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
If as you say I2a-din and R1a was brought into the balkans by Slavs, then answer me what markers where with the people that where already living there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
The area was not empty of people
We finally have some useful SNPs to divide the very large Dinaric
haplogroup. One of the most important is S17250 and it is now available for
testing as an individual SNP at FTDNA. You can also order S17250 from
Thomas Krahn's http://www.yseq.net/ and no prior testing is required at
this company. And S17250 is included as part of the Chromo2 test at
BritainsDNA http://www.britainsdna.com/
Around 12 Dinarics have tested S17250 as part of Big Y or at YSEQ. All 5
Dinaric-South men were S17250+, and some Dinaric-North men were S17250+ and
other Dinaric-North men were S17250-. The division between Dinaric-South
and Dinaric-North is based on two STR markers and this division is not
always a perfect reflection of genetic history. Dinarics belong to
I-CTS5966 which is part of I-L621, I-M423, and I-P37 and they have been
known by many other haplogroup designations over the years.
Thanks to those Dinarics who have done Big Y or tested at YSEQ, and thanks
to Larry Mayka of the Polish Project and Zdenko Markovic of the I2a project
for analyzing the data. Please see our new Dinaric tree here
http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.htmland
please feel free to contact me for the most recent advice before you
order S17250 or any other test.
Bernie Cullen
one of the volunteer administrators, I2a Project
The URL didn't come out correctly. Here it is again:
http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.html
So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
course.
Besides S17250, I have requested from FTDNA individual SNP tests for the
following:
Y3548
Z16970
Z16971
YFC010724
Y3118
Z16983 (17558968)
From: Bernie Cullen
The case is not closed yet
E-V13Quote:
Originally Posted by Sile
J-M12
R1b-U152
R1b-M269(xL51)
J-M410
G2a
I'm not sure about the timeline of the multiple I1 SNPs which can be found in the Balkans.
In Romanian language common use words are either cognates with Romance languages,either cognates to Slavic languages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
So I highly doubt the theory which says that the "Slavs migrated in 6th century and they influenced Romanian language".
I will give a single example of word,to annoy the people who are saying Slavs were not existing in Balkans before 6th Century:
eye/s in Romanian - ochi .
Clearly cognate with :
Ukrainian,Bulgarian ochi (spell it oki to understand how it is pronounced) - eyes
Serbo-croatian - oci
etc
So it is clear that Romanian people and language were formed from Slavic people also.
Not possible to have basic words replaced,under the influence of settling people.
So,first,I do not agree with the theory of Slavic migration in Balkans,I agree partially .
I think some kind of Satem speakers,of a language that is closed to today South Slavic were living were today South Slavs are living before Roman Empire conquest.
As for I2a1b I think is very old ,some people that were here from thousands of year before Christ.
Notice that some genetic testing have show Thracian being very closed to Sardinians ,which have as most present paternal line a some kind of I2a.
So is very possible that on today land of Romania,Balkans were living some Italic speakers,after which Satem speakers came and conquered them.
Most Satem speakers were speaking some kind of proto-Slavic.In Romania was less influence in the language,this is why the language kept lots of words common with Romance languages.
Occhi - Italian - eyesQuote:
Originally Posted by mihaitzateo
Oculi - Latin - eyes
Hm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
You can see exactly which haplogroups were there before the Slavs and which ones came with the Slavs from this data. They created this study with the goal to prove paleolithic continuity of Haplogroup I in Croatia, but given we our current knowledge of the unlikeliness of paleolithic continuity all it does is show us which haplogroups were pre Slav.
Every Haplogroup that has a Higher frequency for "Croation mainlaind" than for "Brac-Hvar-Korkula" is Slav, every Haplogroup that has a Higher frequency for "Brac-Hvar-Korkula" than for "Croatian Mainland" is Pre-Slav.
Slav:
R1a-SRY
R1b-M173
Pre-Slav:
I-M170
G-M201
P*
J
The G/P*/J aren't really of any value because it is based off of <10 results. I think this study is only significant for I, R1a, and R1b.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5200992f1.jpg
Frequency No 95% CR I-M170 Croatian mainland 0.376 41 0.291–0.470 Krk 0.284 21 0.194–0.396 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.551 27 0.413–0.682 Hvar 0.659 60 0.557–0.749 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.537 72 0.453–0.620 G-M201 Croatian mainland 0.009 1 0.002–0.050 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.061 3 0.022–0.165 Hvar 0.011 1 0.003–0.058 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.104 14 0.064–0.168 F-M89 Croatian mainland 0.018 2 0.006–0.064 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.020 1 0.005–0.106 Hvar 0.011 1 0.003–0.058 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.015 2 0.005–0.052 R1a-SRY10831 Croatian mainland 0.339 37 0.257–0.433 Krk 0.378 28 0.276–0.493 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.265 13 0.162–0.403 Hvar 0.087 8 0.045–0.162 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.201 27 0.142–0.0277 R1b-M173 Croatian mainland 0.156 17 0.100–0.236 Krk 0.162 12 0.096–0.263 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.061 3 0.022–0.165 Hvar 0.011 1 0.003–0.059 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.015 1 0.005–0.052 P*-92R7 Croatian mainland 0.018 2 0.006–0.064 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.000 0 0 Hvar 0.140 13 0.085–0.227 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.060 8 0.026–0.104 E-SRY4064 Croatian mainland 0.055 6 0.026–0.115 Krk 0.068 5 0.030–0.149 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.041 2 0.013–0.137 Hvar 0.043 4 0.018–0.106 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.037 5 0.016–0.084 J-12f2 Croatian mainland 0.018 2 0.006–0.064 Krk 0.108 8 0.056–0.199 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.000 0 0 Hvar 0.033 3 0.012–0.091 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.022 3 0.008–0.064 K-M9 Croatian mainland 0.009 1 0.002–0.050 Krk 0.000 0 0 Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gif 0.000 0 0 Hvar 0.000 0 0 Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/spec...base/glyph.gifula 0.015 2 0.005–0.052
What does the link say exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
I don't understand.
That proves that existed a strong inter-living between Slavs and Romance populations.Quote:
Originally Posted by FBS
Since in proto-Indo-European is not this form.
Romanian have other words from Slavic,one of the words that is giving scientists from Romania a lot of headaches being zapada,used in Romanian for snow,which is cognate to old Slavonic zapadati - to fall a lot of snow.
All Slavic speakers have a very closed word to Germanic for snow.
Another thing,zapada is not used in the part of Romania that was conquered by Roman Empire,that much.
Another thing,most Romanian words used for agriculture are cognate to Slavic words.
Some theory tells that Dacians were some kind of Iranic speakers,raising sheep and being leading class,Slavs people practicing agriculture living together with Thracians,which were Italic population conquered by Dacians.
I doubt that Slavs were carrying only one HG on paternal lines and I do not think they were carrying I2-din mostly.
No idea why people do not have a theory in which Slavs actually came from SE Europe and spread to North since they are Satem IE speakers.
It would be common sense that Satem IE Speakers so Slavs also to carry mostly J2,R1A in addition to other HGs.But not carrying too much I2din.
In fact is possible that Slavs came and conquered Balkans&Romania,mixed with people here and after spread towards North Europe.
In the process they mixed with I2-din bearers and spread I2-din towards North Europe.
I think we whsould open a topic on linguistics section with words from Iranic languages in Albanian,Romanian and Slavic languages and also with common culture things between Iranic people and these 4 ethnicities mentioned before.
It says that all I2a-Dinaric-South samples are positive for the newly found S17250 SNP. It also says that this new SNP is the youngest (not private) I2a SNP found so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldritch
On the other side many I2a-Dinaric-North are not positive for S17250.
Since I2a-Dinaric-South is predominant in the Balkans and I2a-Dinaric-North is more frequent as we go towards Northeast (it is almost the only I2a-Dinaric found in Northeast Europe), it is clear that the Balkan I2a-Din is younger than the one in the other parts of Eastern Europe (it is actually the youngest).
If Balkan I2a is the youngest of all the European I2a, then it can't be the source of I2a in Europe.
I was thinking about this and then it occurred to me that I don't have enough genetic knowledge to determine if addition or deletion of a SNP is the sign of age, evolutionary progress if you will. Are you sure if deletion can't happen with time too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
I don't have enough knowledge too, but I think that deletion possibility is highly unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBrok
And if it ever happened it would be impossible that it happened completely only for those I2a samples where the next youngest SNP is not found (the next youngest is I2a-CTS5966).
And for the I2a-CTS5966 it is not completely deleted (some have it some don't). It would make no sense that it is preserved in the youngest samples.
Shetop:"It says that all I2a-Dinaric-South samples are positive for the newly found S17250 SNP. It also says that this new SNP is the youngest (not private) I2a SNP found so far.
On the other side many I2a-Dinaric-North are not positive for S17250."
No.It says that:"Around 12 Dinarics have tested S17250 as part of Big Y or at YSEQ. All 5
Dinaric-South men were S17250+, and some Dinaric-North men were S17250+ and
other Dinaric-North men were S17250-."
Bernie Cullen
one of the volunteer administrators, I2a Project
What part of my post is wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by gyms
The Slavic theory is beginning to look like the most sensible one.
Here is some more data on sampling done in the Balkans. It shows a 9.4% frequency of I2a1 M423 in Trento, which for some reason is shown as 0% in Maciamo's I2a1 map, he must have used data from a different study.
http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cac...imgtrento3.jpg
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ogroup_I2a.gif
http://i.imgur.com/gaA5yL5.jpg
And some maps of gothic expansion because we love maps here.
http://img.tyzhden.ua/Content/Digest/week/march/gth.jpg
http://www.mmdtkw.org/MedRom0213Ostrogoths.jpg
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/...urope526AD.png
http://www.designsofwonder.com/image.../migration.gif
I like this map because it shows the entire history of the gothic migration. The Goths did not settle in the entire "Ostrogothic Kingdom" rather they settled in Bosnia/Croatia and later sacked/conqured rome with no corresponding settlement.
Here is a quote from Jordanes about how the Goths got to Pannonia and how we see them living there south of the Danube (Right where Bosnia is)
"Now when the Goths saw the Gepidae defending for themselves the territory of the Huns and the people of the Huns dwelling again in their ancient abodes, they preferred to ask for lands from the Roman Empire, rather than invade the lands of others with danger to themselves. So they received Pannonia, which stretches in a long plain, being bounded on the east by Upper Moesia, on the south by Dalmatia, on the west by Noricum and on the north by the Danube"
@motzart
I do not know why you put the trento map in the above links.
Trento and alto-adige region of Italy rarely have people who test in genetic sites ( 23andme , ftdna etc) , this is because they get tested for free by the region.
in regard to the I marker from these regional tests for that region. it states
~5% for I1
and ~2% for I2
the 9.4% is for North-east Italy, it can mean Veneto and Friuli regions.
And yes Trento does fall in the term - the 3 venice's ...........veneto, friuli and trento regions
Shetop:"What part of my post is wrong?"
You should say all tested Dinarics instead of"all Dinarics".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sile
I posted the map of Trento to show the Region where they had a 9.4% sample for I2a1 (showing I2a1 has a higher frequency Northeastern italy than Maciamo's I2a1 map suggests), can you post me a link to the 'regional tests' you are talking about?
Here is the study I was going off of.
Materials and methods
Samples
The sample consists of 1206 unrelated male individuals
from 17 population samples (Figure 1). Two-hundred and
thirty-five of these, namely 64 Albanians from Former
Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia, 29 Croatians from
Osijek, 75 Slovenians and 67 northeast Italians (from the
province of Trento), are reported here for the first time. The
remaining include samples reported earlier,
23,27,33
and
consist of 104 Caucasians (38 Balkarians and 66
Georgians), 149 Greeks (92 from Athens and 57 from
Macedonia), 55 Albanians (collected in Tirana), 89 Croa-
tians, 99 Polish, 75 Czechs, 92 Ukrainians, 53 Hungarians
and 255 Bosnia-Herzegovinians (84 Bosniacs, 90 Croats
and 81 Serbs). Blood samples were collected from healthy
unrelated adults after obtaining informed consent. DNA
was extracted from whole blood according to the
standard phenol/chloroform procedure, followed by ethanol
precipitation.
In addition, P37.2* samples identified from a screening
of the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation collec-
tion (over 14 000 Y chromosomes from more than 100
countries) were also included.
http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con.../Battaglia.pdf
Done in 2008, I think a random sampling would provide a better result than voluntary regional testing. Professional random sampling would be done on unrelated individuals with historical roots in the region, voluntary would spread family based and include individuals with no historical roots
there are 3 different 2013 papers in the thread belowQuote:
Originally Posted by motzart
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n-Italian-Alps
I'll go with your logic for the lack of alternative explanation. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shetop
I don't think the Slavs are responsible for bringing I2a-Din to the Balkans:
- If I understood the argument brought forward by Sparkey correctly, it starts with the observation of high I2a-Din diversity in Southern Poland. Now, because of post WWII population shifts, Southern Poland is a tricky region. In fact, the vast majority of people now living in Silesia west of Katowice should have originated from what is today Western Ukraine. Any more detailed explanation about what "Southern Poland" is meant to comprise is appreciated. Until then, I would rather tend to regard the Dniester basin (SW Ukraine & Moldova) as potential I2a-Din "homeland".
- The Slavic expansion is believed to have taken place from somewhere NE of the Carpathians. The south-western expansion, which comprised Croats and Serbs, is assumed to have ocurred via Moravia and the Pannonian plain. The most convenient way of getting there, especially if you are travelling with children and household belongings, is via the upper Oder and the Moravian Gate (Katowize - Ostrava - Brno). Now, we know about another Slavic expansion that started from the upper Oder, namely the Obodrites that settled Mecklenburg and Eastern Holstein. The Obotrites were "good", i.e. Christianised Slavs, thus after their incorporation into the Holy Roman Empire in the late 12th century, the nobility was left in place and actually continued to rule as Dukes of Mecklenburg until 1919. Their genetic footprint, while diluted by subsequent German settlers (possibly also some Swedes during the 17th and 18th century), is well preserved - R1b frequency peaks around Rostock (central Mecklenburg) at 32%. Ia2-Din, OTOH? None that I am aware of (I am, however not following the various DNA pages).
Now, I find it hard to imagine that two migrations that started about the same time and overlapped each other along the upper Oder have resulted in completely different genetic patterns - R1b prevalence in the North, I2a-Din prevalence in the South. Before someone starts with "founder effects" - the Obotrites initially settled in various disjunct areas ("Siedlungskammern"), and only in the 9th century developed political coherence. If at all, smaller genetic components like Ia2-Din are much more likely to have been amplified in one of the many disjunct Obotrite areas than along the middle Danube, which has been a major transit corridor also during early South Slavonic times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obotrites (anybody understanding German should select the German version that is far more detailed and less erroneous).- What if I2a-Din took a shortcut from the Dniester Basin to Serbo-Croat lands? The sources of Dniester and Tisza aren't that far apart. Quite a possible migration route. However, in that case we land with Gepids, Dacians etc. rather than with Slavs, all of which have been discussed here already and don't need to be repeated.
- What if the Serbs and Croats picked up I2a-Din somewhere on their way, say around the Morava in SW Slovakia / Eastern Austria (which, as I have understood, seems to be another diversity hotspot)? Well, first of all, this would leave the question how I2a-Din made it almost to the Balkans without the Slavs, but required them to finally arrive there. I believe the grass isn't any less green on the southern bank of the Danube than on the northern shore, and the advance of the Huns would have provided for enough good reason to move on a bit further south, even for those that previously didn't think living in the Roman Empire might be attractive.. Secondly, the advancing Slavs must have picked up quite a lot of I2a-Din on their way to bring forward the frequencies observed today.
- Most importantly, however, if I2a-Din was already present around the Morava (March - the Austro-Slovakian, not the one in today's Serbia), you don't need the Slavs to explain I2a-Din presence on the Balkans. I find it strange that on 23 pages so far nobody has yet been discussing the Heruli: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli
German Wikipedia, which I tend to trust more here, mentions that the Heruli kingdom also covered the Austrian Weinviertel (NE Austria north of Vienna).Quote:
After the fall of the Hunnic realm in 454 at the Battle of Nedao, in which the Heruls participated, they created their own kingdom at the March and Theiss rivers, (in the region of today's southern Slovakia).
I am no expert in interpreting Byzantine texts, but to me, "cities" (note the plural) denotes a quite large chunk of land to be repopulated (maybe the Serbians here can find out more details). Similarly, "several thousand Heruli" indicates a sizeable local population by 530/540 (the main period of Belisarius' campaigns), i.e. 20-30 years after the establishment of the Singidonum colony.Quote:
After the Herulian kingdom was destroyed by the Lombards, Herulian fortunes waned. Remaining Heruls joined the Lombards and some of them sought refuge with the Gepids. Marcellinus comes recorded that the Romans (meaning the East Romans or in modern naming the Byzantines) allowed them to resettle depopulated "lands and cities" near Singidunum (modern Belgrade); this was done "by order of Anastasius Caesar" sometime between June 29 and August 31, 512. After one generation, this minor federate kingdom disappeared from the historical records.
Records indicate that the Heruli served in the armies of the Roman emperors for a number of years, in particular in the campaigns of Belisarius, when much of the old Roman territory, including Italy, Syria, and North Africa was recaptured. Pharus was a notable Herulian commander during this period. Several thousand Heruli served in the personal guard of Belisarius throughout the campaigns. They disappeared from historical records by the mid-6th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundus_(general):
Obviousy, Mundus' forces were mainly made up by Heruli. With all we know about the habits of war those days ("sent much booty to Constantinople", and probably kept even more for himself and his men), genetic founder effects in Bosnia and Croatia brought forward by that Dalmatian campaign are anything but unlikely.Quote:
Mundus (Greek: Μούνδος; died 536) was an Germanic general of the Byzantine Empire during the reign of Justinian I.
Mundus was of the son of Giesmus, a king of the East Germanic tribe Gepids, and nephew to another Gepid king, Trapstila. (..) In 529, Mundus sent envoys to Justinian, offering his allegiance. His offer was accepted, and Mundus was appointed magister militum per Illyricum, head of all military forces in Illyria and along the Danubian frontier.During the next two years, he defeated incursions of Slavs and Bulgars into the Balkans and sent much booty to Constantinople.
In 531, Mundus was briefly magister militum per Orientem, replacing Belisarius after his failure at Callinicum, but it seems that Mundus never actually traveled to the East to assume that command. In January 532, he was again appointed commander of the Illyrian forces. In the same month, he happened to be in Constantinople with a force of Heruli mercenaries when the Nika riots broke out. Mundus remained loyal to Justinian and, along with Belisarius, was responsible for the massacre of the supporters of Hypatius in the Hippodrome and thus the reassertion of imperial control.
Mundus remained in command of the forces in Illyricum thereafter. In 535, as Justinian launched his attempt to reconquer Italy from the Goths, he led his forces into Dalmatia, which the Goths held, while Belisarius invaded Italy by sea. Mundus defeated the Goths and took the capital, Salona; but, early in the next year, a new Gothic army arrived to reclaim the province. In a skirmish near Salona, Mundus's son Mauricius was trapped with only a few men by a larger Gothic force and was killed. Enraged by the loss of his son, Mundus sallied out and defeated the Goths but was mortally wounded in the pursuit
Finally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singidunum:
So, by the time of the Heruli settlement (512), the city and its surrounding hat seen several devastating raids, and at least seven times changed hands during seventy years. There probably wasn't much original population left. The Heruli colony, OTOH, experienced 70 years of peace, plus another 50 years before the arrival of the Slavs. Might just be enough to propagate I2a-Din to a sizeable number, provided it was already well present within the original Heruli / March basin colony.Quote:
In the 5th and 6th centuries, Moesia and Illyricum suffered devastating raids by the successive invasions of the Huns, Ostrogoths, Gepids, Sarmatians, Avars, and Slavs. Singidunum fell to the Huns in 441, who razed the city and fortress, selling its Roman inhabitants into indentured servitude. Over the next two hundred years, the city passed hands several times: the Romans reclaimed the city after the fall of the Hun confederation in 454, but the Sarmatians conquered the city shortly thereafter. In 470 the Ostrogoths seized the city around, expelling the Sarmatians. The city was later invaded by Gepids (488), but the Ostrogoths recaptured it in 504. Six years later the Eastern Roman Empire reclaimed the city according to a peace treaty.
Byzantine emperor Justinian I rebuilt Singidunum in 535, restoring the fortress and city to its former military importance. The city saw a brief peaceful period of about fifty years, but was then sacked with the arrival of the Avars in 584. During Maurice's Balkan campaigns, Singidunum served as a base of operations, but it was lost again in the early half of the 7th century when the Avars sacked and burned Singidunum to the ground. Around 630, the Slavs settled in the area.
In fact, considering the linguistic situation in the area (Latin vs. Greek as official languages, Illyrian, Dacian, Germanic Heruli & Gepids, Avars, Bulgars, possibly Alans and residual Huns), it doesn't take that many Slavs taking settlement for Slavonic becoming the region's lingua franca..