Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
In fact, they seem like two completely different things.
Beyond the conclusions that might be correct or wrong, Hannah Moots is real and we know from published sources that she is really working on her study.
On the rest so far only rumors.
Thanks a lot for your answer. I agree with all of your points. These are all valid questions you raise, that require answering. Before we jump on conclusions we need to examine all of the details. Hopefully the paper (if real after all) will be worthwhile and able to provide answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
This is not a thread about phenotypes.
Anyone posting off topic responses to posts will find it has been deleted.
The rumour is that the majority of the samples used in the Stanford study, i.e. the one from which the PCA comes, were collected from Isola Sacra.
If that is true, and it's a BIG if, this is not going to be a paper that necessarily tells us a lot of useful information about Italian genetics.
Even Wiki knows that many of them aren't Italian. :)
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
"The Isola Sacra Necropolis was the first large-scale pagan cemetery of Roman Imperial times to be excavated. The excavator-in-chief of most of Isola Sacra was Guido Calza. The necropolis was found on the manmade island of Isola Sacra, which lies between the cities of Portus and Ostia Antica, a region just south of Rome. The emperor Trajan was in power when this artificial island was created. Much of the excavated necropolis flanked the Via Severiana, which ran through Isola Sacra and traveled southeast from Ostica to Terracina."
"A great number of the inscriptions on the tombs suggest Graeco-Oriental origin. Scholars believe this is because Portus and Ostica were a cosmopolitan towns where the bourgeois population was full of businessmen of non-Italian birth.[4] Latin, however, was the language that most townspeople used during the time that the necropolis was built. "
Is that to say that there weren't Southern Italians who were similar to them? Absolutely not. It just means we won't be able to tell that from this paper.
It also seems that there is some sort of amazed disbelief at the supposed leaks that the Etruscan samples studied didn't have any J1 and J2a. Now, maybe some will show up somewhere in the future, but for now they seem to have been G2a, J2b, and some form of R1b, like maybe R1b V88. The latter is totally unexpected, but who knows with rumours. Maybe the samples are degraded and they couldn't get good data. Still, as I said, no J1 and J2a.
Some people really don't want to let go of that "Etruscans were from Asia Minor", even if it's only "Elite Etruscans were from Asia Minor".
Tell me again these people aren't operating from an agenda, and even that they are whom they claim to be.
dear angela
do you got some information on e1b1b1 ?
was it found in remains ?
and if they do which subclade .... { e-v13 , e-m34}?
regards
adam
All I heard is what I posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjohn
It wouldn't at all surprise me if they found some E-M34 in a cemetery full of Hellenes and "Orientals" from the east, but I've heard nothing about it.
It might have been present among some Southern Italians of the Empire as well, but I have no knowledge of that either.
Now it appears that of the strictly Etruscan samples, four low quality ones are R-M269, one high quality one is R-U152, and one is I1.
Yes, indeed, if true, very Asia Minor like elites! :)
There is a reason, as Pax has been saying since FOREVER, that there is so much R1b in Toscana.
Any of the huge proponents of the "the Etruscans were recently arrived people from Anatolia" group, i.e. Sikeliot, Principe, Claudio, Fritz, Agamemnon, and let's not forget Polako, admitted they were completely wrong yet???? I would very much bet not. :)
does that lead to any clues in regards to the language. werent the etruscans always deemed to be middle-eastern or something due to the language being non indo-european.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
maybe its a creole calcolithic/indo european one.
Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
I've never said a dishonest thing on this site in all the years I've been here. How dare you?
I reported what was said on other sites. Plus, I couldn't have made it clearer that I'm taking a wait and see attitude. Learn to read more carefully before you go shooting off your mouth. Or perhaps you need some remedial classes in reading comprehension, like Polako.
"The rumour is that the majority of the samples used in the Stanford study, i.e. the one from which the PCA comes, were collected from Isola Sacra.
"IF that is true, and it's a BIG if, this is not going to be a paper that necessarily tells us a lot of useful information about Italian genetics."
Get it now? Did I make it simple enough for you?
You're punching above your weight class, buddy. It never ends well.
i wonder why etruscan have "aiser" as one of their main gods.
Angela, why do you think there is an agenda behind Etruscans from Anatolia hypothesis?
I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I believe everyone who maintained that had or has an agenda. Jean Manco believed it wholeheartedly. We had heated debates about it. I just thought she was too dogmatic about it, ignoring the archaeology completely in favor of believing Herodotus' version of events in preference to those of other ancient historians. She generally gave too much credence to these "historians", which they weren't really, who were just recounting myths of things which happened long before their time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpluskx
I myself stated more than once that it was possible that a small elite might have come from Asia Minor in the first millennium BC, but it was just that: a possibility. Certainly, there was no sign of a folk migration sufficient in size to have a real effect on the genome. There was just too much against it, with the archaeology first and foremost: there was and is absolutely no sign of a mass invasion, or destroyed settlements etc., just a gradual change in the culture as contact increased with the east. There was also the fact that the high levels of J2a are in the east, closer to the Balkans, not Toscana; that there is so much R1b in Toscana; that Greece, for example, has even more "West Asian" according to the old calculators based on modern populations which people loved to use; that there definitely seemed to be a south/north cline in terms of this ancestry etc. I specifically asked rhetorically many times if the Lydians went not just to Toscana but to Albania, Greece, Sicily, Calabria, Puglia, Campania and the Marche as well. I could go on, but you probably know all of this.
As for those with an agenda, I know they have one partly because I know who they are and what their motivations are. They were quite open about their ideas in the past, although they aren't now. One, Polako, is a Slavic/Nordic racist of long standing, member for years, and prolific poster at horrifically racist sites who, while such a member, posted numerous times highly anti-semitic content and highly racist comments about Southern Italians, calling them mongrels and non-Europeans because they had "too much" of the "Near Eastern" ancestry he so disdained. It's always amazed me that South Asians like Razib Khan could stomach him. I guess they didn't see the posts where he called "them" mongrels too.
As for Sikeliot, I have it in personal PMs from him that his father was Sicilian and rejected his son for his sexual orientation, as well as disdaining his Islander Portuguese mother for her African ancestry. Sikeliot has now convinced people that he is just a "fan" of Levantine and Anatolian ancestry. That couldn't be further from the truth. For years he masqueraded as "Portuguese Princess" (and under other sock accounts) at theapricity, and under other sock accounts here and elsewhere, even at citydata, and his only mission was to prove the Portuguese were "superior" to Sicilians and Southern Italians because they had less "Levantine" and/or Anatolian ancestry. How people don't know the latter is beyond me.
Principe is one of those Southern Italian Americans or Southern Italian Canadians, if he isn't just another one of Sikeliot's socks, rare but present, who like to believe they're Jewish. A Calabrian woman is sort of famous for this, actually converted and became a rabbi, and now lives in Italy. It takes all kinds, I guess. In his case it's all supposedly because he thinks his ydna is Jewish. Maybe it is. I have no doubt some Jews in southern Italy converted and tried to blend into the background to escape expulsion. It happened in Portugal and Spain, why not in Sicily and Southern Italy? That doesn't make you Jewish or Levantine. For crying out loud, I carry an mtDna from the European hunter-gatherers, no doubt via steppe people who came into Italy. Does that mean I should identify with them, tout all things hunter-gatherer and steppe just for that reason, try to get accepted by some far right group? It's completely ridiculous. We are what our autosomal inheritance, 98% of our genome, and culture make us. Anything else is as ridiculous as Elizabeth Warren claiming to be Amerindian because she carries 2% of that ancestry.
There are way too many people in this hobby who just aren't stable mentally, or are just out and out racists, and for whatever reason, partly, I'm sure, because we are living proof that "excellence", and achievement, and contribution to European civilization doesn't depend on high levels of WHG and steppe, and also probably because most of us don't give a **** about whether we have more "West Asian" or "Levantine" than northerners. I certainly don't, and I certainly don't disdain that ancestry. Would I have married someone more than half Calabrian if I did?
I could go on, but I won't. These are what could be called impeachable witnesses. Certain behaviors call people's veracity into question.
They're all very quiet about their motivations now, but I've been around for a long time, and I know who they are and what motivates them, and I see how they ignore any facts that don't fit into their "explanation" of things. Nothing that they say should be taken at face value. You have to check every statement of supposed "fact" because some of them, especially someone like Polako, and on every topic, think absolutely nothing of outright lying, misrepresenting the findings of academic papers, or manipulating the data.
I've spent my professional life pinning liars to the wall and exposing them, and I'm not going to do any different when the topic is genetics.
@Angela But Etruscans were very sophisticated / advanced people and had considerable influence on Romans. I mean from their perspective you can understand why would they want Italians to have more Arab ancestry, so that they could call them non-European/white etc. But why would these Nord-Eastern supremacists would like Etruscans to be Near Eastern? Isn't Etruscans being closer to the steppe better for their ideology? Then in their mind they can claim Romans' successes too.
On Razib Khan, he used to write on Unz along with Jared Taylor etc. I think he is Republican too. I find it a little weird, i don't think most republicans would have positive views about South Asians, even though they are the richest/most educated group in US. Maybe he thinks deeper than me, i don't know.
Politics and Genetics don’t match.
It’s called Cultural Appropriation, but I call it Cultural Misappropriation.
... and don't assume that all Republicans are racist !!!
Republicans come in all sizes shapes and colors!
The point is that these people don't care and have never cared about the sophistication and achievements of certain ancient civilizations. Shouldn't it have been obvious to anyone with two brain cells who managed to graduate even from just middle school that the Near East was "civilized" long before any "European" civilization? Where did farming start, or animal husbandry, or real cities, or metallurgy, or writing and on and on?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpluskx
They don't care. All that matters is that these people to their minds are the "other", dark foreigners whom they can't, to this day, admit form part of their heritage too. Has Polako ever talked about the ANF in Poles? He can't even admit that the "Caucasus" half of the Yamnaya, and which is also present in Corded Ware, is Near Eastern in origin. The fact that these people might have gone onto the steppe in the Eneolithic instead of the Bronze Age is supposed to be all that matters, not their genetic make-up. He wants everyone to forget or ignore that the difference between the "CHG" and Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic of which there is more in Italians and some Balkanites is laughably small. He's just pathetic.
These people made a fetish not of literate, sophisticated cultures, but of hunter-gatherers living off fish and half raw meat while living in yurts. Or, they envisioned themselves as blonde, wild, he-men, raiding on horseback, killing "inferior" dark males and stealing their women. That's the kind of crap that they used to openly say. I have some beautiful examples from Polako talking about blonde cow-boys of the steppe, an anachronism if I ever saw one, and others getting misty eyed about the great old days when they roamed the land hunting and fishing and all that new-fangled "civilization" was far away, or almost weeping when the saw the "blondes" of Central Asia.
When advanced civilizations are on European soil they have indeed tried to "claim" them. That's what's behind all the old "the ancient Greeks and Romans were Nordic people" nonsense. That's why there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of idiotic posts on the internet about how "Nordic" they looked, how blonde and blue eyed they were. Meanwhile, even Central European looking ancient Greeks and Romans are by no means the norm, nor even, by a long shot, the majority.
With all the murals we have of the Etruscans they couldn't claim that. Plus, there was the Herodotus story. So, that narrative just became a convenient way to support their exaggerated ideas about Italian genetic history.
This is what I mean:
http://historytravelswithnancy.com/e...-tarquinia.jpg
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...64192de6744c-c
Trust me, if the murals showed blonde people, they would have called Herodotus a quack.
What they ignored, of course, but now suddenly seem to have discovered is that some of the Etruscans did seem to have lighter hair. They also never gave credence to the well-known fact that artistic representations are not always reliable in terms of the phenotype of the people of the locale. A lot of those artists were Greek, there was a fad for Greek art, and the Etruscans wanted to associate themselves with the advanced civilizations of the east.
Never expect consistency from people with an agenda. Instead of following the money, you have to follow the agenda. :)
I assure you that if it turns out that the Etruscans, but especially the Etruscan elite, were much more "northern" than thought, these people will suddenly discover what a "cool" culture they had, how superior they were, etc.
As for the "Republican" thing, that has absolutely nothing to do with the interpretation of genetics. Khan used to be very libertarian. Libertarianism has absolutely nothing to do with racism. I have my own libertarian leanings to a degree, and I haven't voted Democrat for a very, very, long time, and I absolutely am not a racist of any kind. You've been listening to too much "leftist-progressive" propaganda where they are trying to brainwash everyone into equating conservatism or even just being moderate, which is basically what I am, with racism and fascism.
There is no difference, you know, in terms of human rights abuses, between communism and fascism. They're just too sides of the same coin.
Yeah, i think now they will slowly start to claim Etruscans. But i continue to disagree with you on the republicans. Core republicans would just like to stop immigration from South Asia. I think it should be kind of weird knowing that and voting for them if you are South Asian. That's just my opinion. (I am not a progressive btw i don't have any ideology)
Republicans prefer an immigration policy based on merit, no matter where they come from.
gone off-topic, sorry, I Stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
Personally, I prefer to wait for the publication of the studies. Rumors may be fake, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
I obviously agree with you.
As you know these frescoes from southern Etruria were made during the Orientalizing period and reflect the artistic taste of that precise period and often they were also painted by foreign artists. Many etruscologists have repeatedly said, not least Nancy Thomson de Grummond, that they are not realistic portraits and that they cannot be taken as evidence of anything.
The wrong Nordicist reading of these frescoes led over time in the forums even to the falsification of some images. The image below is also from an Etruscan tomb in southern Etruria. Both dancers are part of the same fresco, but the one with the lightest hair becomes "Latin", when of course there's no evidence of it.
Nordicism, but this applies also to certain exasperated forms of Orientalism, always manipulates the alleged evidence.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2a/0c...e0a8207eaf.jpg
I, in turn, agree with you. That's why I always say, "if true". Sometimes I even say IF, true, and it's a BIG if", to drive the point home. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax Augusta
I wouldn't, for example, be shocked if some J2 does show up among them. That haplogroup and ancestry from the east had been filtering into Italy for a long time.
Of course there's alywas an agenda behind this. Just see how many people talk about Etruscans in the forums without ever having read anything and are focused only on the origins. The "agenda" starts with the ancient Greek writers who obviously had a different mindset from us and what they wrote cannot be judged by the standards of our time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Greek authors were tr-olls. Many scholars, who have studied the Etruscans in depth, explain the Greek authors do not always report historical facts, and in the case of the theories about the Etruscans, these theories are the result of how the Greeks "see" the Etruscans in a specific historical moment and in a specific Greek context. The oldest Greek sources that mention the Etruscans do not report an eastern origin of the Etruscans. Then it was only from the 5th century B.C. that the Greek authors began to discuss about the origins of the Etruscans, which coincides roughly with the end of the period of the Etruscan Kings of Rome, when the Etruscans are perhaps the most powerful civilization in Italy. When Greek authors claim that the Etruscans come from Lydia in Anatolia (which is broadly speaking Hellenized peripheral world) and or from Thessaly in Greece, Greek authors want to connect, even peripherally, the Etruscans to themselves. When, on the other hand, they claim that the Etruscans are autochthonous, they want to distance the Etruscans from the Greeks (in fact in the latter case they connect instead the Romans with themselves).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpluskx
The Anatolia hypothesis, as in Herodotus' text, is not believed true by etruscologists. For linguistic, archaeological and historical reasons, there is nothing that can support a link between Etruscans and the Lydians, who spoke an Indo-European language closer to Greek and or Latin than to the Etruscan language. Usually it is non-Etruscologists or Indo-Europeanists who push this theory.
It is necessary to reiterate a starting assumption at this point: language and genetics in southern Europe are not necessarily the same thing between the end of the Bronze Age and the beginning of the Iron Age, when historical ethnos are going to be formed. Language and genetics are maybe the same long before this period. So it is not surprising at all that in this period people who spoke a pre-Indo-European language and people who spoke a Indo-European language were similar genetically. A similar situation also existed in the Iberian peninsula, where both Indo-European and pre-Indo-European languages are documented in this same period.
Having said this, the origin of the Etruscan language is obviously still not entirely clear. Today we know that a similar and connected language has existed in the Alps of northern Italy, the Rhaetian language. Etruscan and Rhaetian together with the language attested in the few inscriptions of Lemnos are part of a hypothetical pre-Indo-European linguistic family. Some people say that another language spoken in the Alps of northern Italy, the Camunic language, may also be part of this linguistic family. The linguists are still working here.
Etruscans were very sophisticated but it's only true from a certain time onwards and this has nothing to do with the origin of the Etruscans but is due to the contact with the Greeks and the Orientalizing period, the spread in southern Europe of art, culture and even religious elements from the ancient Near East. The Greeks themselves are culturally indebted to the cultures of the Ancient Near East.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpluskx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalizing_period
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax Augusta
The Greeks themselves are culturally indebted to the cultures of the Ancient Near East.Algebra Arab invention
Absolutely true! Greeks did to near east cultures what Romans did to Greek culture! They embraced those achievements and advanced them!
let say:
sea going ships were Arab invention
alphabet an Egyptian invention
sculpting n Egyptian invention
Anatomy Egyptian invention
Literature, trade Babylonian invention
And list going on.....
I always believed that Etruscans were an early farmer stratum population. So they could have genetic similarities with Greeks or Turks. On the other side most Greeks and Albanians are Bronx age population. The contact of Greeks and Etruscans could have happened in sicily
Albanians and almost all southern European have no less farmer ancestry than Greeks and Italians. Modern Turks are extremely variable, since they have assimilated over centuries everything from the Balkans, the Slavs and the Middle East.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut
The contact between Greeks and Etruscans happened in Campania (Pithecusa, Cuma), where both Greeks and Etruscans had colonies.
There are two sides that make up a coin; so there are two sides to a story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
Do you think if we were to get Sara's side of the story of how her brother/husband pimped her out to two kings [Pharaoh's harem]as his sister to save his own skin; and or Isaac calling Rebekah his wife, and or Abraham's uncle Lot getting drunk and raping his two daughters in a cave would change your perspective of Abraham,Lot, Isaac ?
Sometimes we don't know the full story/reason why people post silly things if it is about an agenda or something deeper.
Silesian, you're talking about the whys of behavior. If I'm interpreting you correctly, you're saying there may be more behind people's actions than is apparent on the surface.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silesian
That's very true, but I can also tell you that people spin the most incredible falsehoods about their parents, spouses, friends, co-workers and on and on in order to put themselves and their own behavior in a better light. Never believe anyone when they're trying to pin the blame for their bad behavior on someone else. Not only is it often a lie, but it doesn't excuse anything. Even revenge against an individual human being who has harmed you is wrong. To denigrate a whole large subset of the human race for something done to one personally would still be evil. A lot of the darkness in human beings is just there, innate; bad parenting doesn't necessarily make a criminal. Otherwise, there would be a hell of a lot more criminals.
Plus, while motivations can in some cases help you understand "why" people do the things they do, in others you can't ever really understand the motivations even when you have heard everyone's version of the events. The human psyche is still a mystery. (I almost said "soul".) If anyone tells you they completely understand why some people become serial killers, or pedophiles, or torturers, or batterers/rapists and on and on they're either lying or they don't know what they're talking about. I'm not equating the kind of behavior we're discussing with those aberrations, but there is definitely something wrong with some posters on genetics sites, and dishonesty and egomania is only the tip of the iceberg.
Plus, you can't do anything about whatever happened to them in the past. You can't fix people's bad brain wiring or chemistry, or go back and make all their bad experiences good ones. All you can do is protect whom and what you can by exposing bad behavior, warning people about the perpetrators of it, and, where you can, removing them from situations where they can cause harm.