Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

I think that many of the samples I posted on #832 are the same samples that @Pax listed on #839, ... the samples were re-named and recycled for another study, ... see below.



ITS is the SouthItalian of Post #839

Code:

---

ITS2,10.04,0,1.14,0,27.18,15.93,0.93,0,11.33,0.26,33.19,0
ITS4,8.05,0,5.16,0,26.62,12.04,0,0,11.74,0.62,35.77,0
ITS5,5.86,1.35,2.20,0,30.35,16.61,0.65,0.06,11.71,0.58,30.45,0.19
ITS7,9.63,0,2.78,0.45,28.77,16.43,0,0.89,12.03,0,29.02,0

---

https://i.imgur.com/DY1jaN5.gif

https://i.imgur.com/mByjhyk.gif

https://i.imgur.com/LxgZrU8.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Salento

I think that many of the samples I posted on #832 are the same samples that @Pax listed on #839, ... the samples were re-named and recycled for another study, ... see below.



ITS is the SouthItalian of Post #839

Code:

---

ITS2,10.04,0,1.14,0,27.18,15.93,0.93,0,11.33,0.26,33.19,0
ITS4,8.05,0,5.16,0,26.62,12.04,0,0,11.74,0.62,35.77,0
ITS5,5.86,1.35,2.20,0,30.35,16.61,0.65,0.06,11.71,0.58,30.45,0.19
ITS7,9.63,0,2.78,0.45,28.77,16.43,0,0.89,12.03,0,29.02,0

---

https://i.imgur.com/DY1jaN5.gif

https://i.imgur.com/mByjhyk.gif

https://i.imgur.com/LxgZrU8.gif

---

Great work once again,

Here is a PCA with those new samples. I am fairly close to ITS7, any idea where that one is from?

https://i.imgur.com/rxU1d8W.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Great work once again,

Here is a PCA with those new samples. I am fairly close to ITS7, any idea where that one is from?

https://i.imgur.com/rxU1d8W.png

---

ITS7 is from Crispiano, Province of Taranto, ... Puglia :)

ITS2 Naples
ITS4 Naples
ITS5 Salerno
ITS7 Crispiano

https://i.imgur.com/zIkl9rl.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

https://i.imgur.com/Oxk95sH.png

Here is the PCA with all of the samples organized by region.

---

You flip this 90 degrees and you essentially get the Italian "boot". It's interesting to see Albanians across the pond plot a little more north than they are geographically. I'm assuming without the Slavic/Gothic input they'd plot with Abruzzo.

https://i.imgur.com/GqE5nJ5.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Salento

I think that many of the samples I posted on #832 are the same samples that @Pax listed on #839, ... the samples were re-named and recycled for another study, ... see below.

---

Yes, it is absolutely possible, the samples are very often the same for years that from time to time are renamed in a different way in the studies. When the samples are really new it is specified in the study (also because it takes money to analyze new ones).

I have been really thinking lately, remember that one paper stating Albanians and Italians have the highest IBD sharing?
It has been in the back of my mind a lot lately. What it means, that statement, what it says about history. Especially after all the ancient Balkan cluster samples since that paper look modern North Italian like, while most Albanians have Tuscany, Marche and Lombardy as their closest matches bar Central Macedonian Greek.

IIRC, paraphrasing, the paper stated something along the lines Italians share among themselves as much common ancestry with Albanians as between themselves.
What do you guys make of it?
Also, why do Albanians have the greatest resemblance to N. Italians autosomally? One would think given the boot being the closest geographical area, rather South-East Italy would be more so similar.

I really think that one statement went a bit under the radar relatively speaking, and we still have not made enough sense of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne

I have been really thinking lately, remember that one paper stating Albanians and Italians have the highest IBD sharing?
It has been in the back of my mind a lot lately. What it means, that statement, what it says about history. Especially after all the ancient Balkan cluster samples since that paper look modern North Italian like, while most Albanians have Tuscany, Marche and Lombardy as their closest matches bar Central Macedonian Greek.

IIRC, paraphrasing, the paper stated something along the lines Italians share among themselves as much common ancestry with Albanians as between themselves.
What do you guys make of it?
Also, why do Albanians have the greatest resemblance to N. Italians autosomally? One would think given the boot being the closest geographical area, rather South-East Italy would be more so similar.

I really think that one statement went a bit under the radar relatively speaking, and we still have not made enough sense of it.

---

I think that paper was more emphasizing the fact that Italy is a diverse place to the point where any 2 Italians share as many ancestors as they do with an Albanian.

Italy is more like a mini-continent where all sorts of ethnicities lived: Italic, Celtic, Etruscan, Messapians, Greeks, etc... and got homogenized with the Roman Republic/Empire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne

Also, why do Albanians have the greatest resemblance to N. Italians autosomally?

---

Illyrians came from the region ~Hallstatt Culture same as Italics, nothing surprising there. Only difference is that the more south they go, the more EEF-heavy people they mixed with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Salento

ITS7 is from Crispiano, Province of Taranto, ... Puglia :)
ITS2 Naples
ITS4 Naples
ITS5 Salerno
ITS7 Crispiano
https://i.imgur.com/zIkl9rl.gif

---

Someone from Puglia, that makes sense. I guess I'm not alone in being Apulian but plotting with Abruzzo and Molise. Our "range" is pan-south Italian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

https://i.imgur.com/Oxk95sH.png
Here is the PCA with all of the samples organized by region.

---

@Archetype0ne
To me it looks like Albanians are south Italian-like (Greek-like) + Northeastern European (Slavic). Rather than associated with Northern Italy.

https://i.imgur.com/37ZJ7FT.png

Here it is in 3D:

https://i.imgur.com/2IB0GsG.png

I myself am closer to some Albanians than I am to some people within my own region. Not by much though. I recall a distance of 4 from my own brother.

Distance to:	Jovialis
1.85132385	Molise:PG26_Molise
2.16529444	Abruzzo:Alp140
2.71775643	Abruzzo:Alp090
2.73558038	Abruzzo:Alp616
2.89611809	Apulia:cera1
2.91856129	Apulia:cera2
3.19426048	Umbria:PG06
3.32980480	Molise:PG27
3.34511584	Apulia:cera8
3.38212951	Lazio:NOR28
3.39328749	Marche:MarABY030D
3.47597468	Marche:MarACO100D
3.49479613	Apulia:Pu45
3.70070264	Abruzzo:Alp503
3.77326119	Abruzzo:ALP161
3.80215728	Marche:MarACY030D
3.80621860	Apulia:cera9
3.86023315	Campania:NaN212CR
3.92572286	Apulia:ALP583
3.93819756	Campania:NaN238DM
4.00362336	ITS7
4.03121570	ITS5
4.19687979	Basilicata:PG24
4.30620483	ITS2
4.30936190	Basilicata:PG21
4.37315675	Abruzzo:Alp380
4.45463803	Apulia:ALP379
4.48544312	Marche:MarABP050D
4.48723746	Umbria:PG04
4.49059016	Umbria:PG15
4.49109118	Abruzzo:Alp162
4.50217725	Marche:MarABN020D
4.52702993	Apulia:GS34
4.52765944	Basilicata:PG18
4.57330296	Basilicata:PG17
4.62709412	Basilicata:PG19
4.66113720	Lazio:NOR24
4.77789703	Umbria:PG03
4.84129115	Apulia:Pu2
4.96169326	Campania:NaN119AMR
5.01162648	Umbria:PG07
5.08283386	Ag-Sicily:8
5.10130375	Basilicata:PG25
5.13775243	Campania:NaN289RM
5.17125710	Abruzzo:ALP205
5.17302619	Campania:NaN293SF
5.20982725	Marche:MarACW080D
5.21470996	Siracusa:SR64_LazaridisNat2014
5.23111843	Siracusa:SR60_LazaridisNat2014
5.24194620	C-Sicily:50
5.26858615	W-Sicily:5a
5.27725307	W-Sicily:1
5.32649040	Apulia:GS32
5.35290575	Campania:NaN43TC
5.54261671	Lazio:PG30
5.67623995	Marche:MarABQ080D
5.76707031	Marche:MarABI020D
5.77688497	Campania:NaN128LA
5.87851172	Ag-Sicily:5
5.96128342	Campania:NaN207MM
5.99716600	Umbria:PG11
6.00906815	Campania:NaN58AC
6.09664662	W-Sicily:3
6.19121959	Basilicata:PG20
6.27799331	Albanian:AL29
6.32832521	Albanian:AL17
6.35270808	Basilicata:PG16
6.39048511	Marche:MarABG010D
6.42788457	Marche:MarADG030D
6.43630329	Apulia:GS47
6.45499806	Albanian:AL98
6.47576250	Campania:NaN46TC
6.60829025	Marche:MarACV100D
6.66920535	W-Sicily:9
6.69049326	Basilicata:PG22
6.95402042	Apulia:Pu7
6.97544264	Marche:MarADC050D
7.01009986	E-Sicily:18
7.01981481	Trapani:TP05_LazaridisNat2014
7.08741843	Calabria:ALP596
7.10824873	Trapani:TP07_LazaridisNat2014
7.56513053	ITS4
7.63080599	Campania:NaN195ST
7.64138731	W-Sicily:21
7.67540227	Lazio:PG28
7.78398356	Marche:MarACW030D
8.27652101	Apulia:Pu3
8.29787322	Tuscany:VO109
8.42525371	Campania:NaN65DFG
8.48450352	Umbria:PG12
8.67656614	Marche:MarABU050D
8.81372793	Campania:NaN77FAM
8.99969444	Apulia:Pu8
9.25859061	Albanian:AL9
9.32910499	Tuscany:MURLO114
9.62319074	Campania:NaN275IS
9.67978306	Umbria:PG08
9.79415642	Albanian:AL12
9.88121956	Tuscany:VO65
9.91437340	Calabria:ALP582
10.50727843	Tuscany:VO59
11.71701327	Albanian:AL82
12.10959950	Veneto:ALP209
13.17558348	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP114
13.96517812	Liguria:ALP099
14.50057240	Veneto:ALP116
14.56071083	Lombrardy:ALP288
15.08679224	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
15.13046926	Veneto:KF1803109
15.71214180	Veneto:KF1800772
16.23050831	Veneto:ALP249
16.85377406	Veneto:ALP273
17.10946229	Veneto:ALP378
17.19271357	Veneto:ALP022
17.33712202	Veneto:KF1800751
17.45904923	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP233
17.50109425	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
17.81440428	Veneto:ALP322
17.83215074	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
18.09505457	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
18.22550411	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
18.44658234	Veneto:ALP040
18.66120843	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
18.67363382	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
18.77592075	Veneto:KF1803105
18.85273455	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
19.15020365	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
19.19053152	Veneto:Alp401
19.57947395	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
19.83245320	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
19.84981108	Veneto:KF1803151
19.88534888	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420
19.91540108	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP259
20.07149471	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700922
20.26290206	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP093
20.55394853	Veneto:ALP250
21.06496618	Veneto:Alp100
21.16655617	Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
22.36397326	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070
23.26169383	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP435
23.45667069	Aosta-Valley:ALP227_Aosta-Valley
23.73422213	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071
24.52472222	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP220
34.94811154	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP414
35.15684571	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP188

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

https://i.imgur.com/37ZJ7FT.png

---

Because of this, modern Albanians plot more with Central and South-Central Italians (Umbria, Marche, Lazio, Abruzzo):

Distance to:	Albanian:AL98
4.66890780	Umbria:PG04
5.21887919	Abruzzo:ALP161
6.04719770	Molise:PG27
6.49398183	Marche:MarABY030D
6.51769131	Abruzzo:Alp140
6.66135121	Marche:MarACY030D
6.74485730	Marche:MarACW080D
6.74894807	Apulia:Pu2
6.84334713	Abruzzo:Alp616
6.92559745	Marche:MarACV100D
6.92693294	Basilicata:PG21
6.98238498	Umbria:PG06
6.98247807	Marche:MarABN020D
7.01667300	Marche:MarADG030D
7.18716912	Molise:PG26_Molise
7.26298837	Marche:MarACO100D
7.37433387	Marche:MarADC050D
7.37997967	Abruzzo:Alp162
7.62638184	ITS5
7.86326904	Umbria:PG11
7.90179094	Marche:MarABQ080D
7.96841264	Apulia:GS34
7.98931787	Abruzzo:Alp090
8.04067161	Lazio:PG30
8.06556880	Marche:MarABP050D

---

Distance to:	Albanian:AL82
8.42498071	Umbria:PG04
9.49236535	Veneto:ALP209
9.58334493	Marche:MarACV100D
9.63746336	Abruzzo:ALP161
9.65626739	Marche:MarADG030D
9.72964542	Marche:MarADC050D
10.04359000	Tuscany:VO109
10.39588861	Marche:MarACW080D
10.66618957	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP233
10.72991146	Marche:MarABU050D
10.81559984	Umbria:PG11
10.83408510	Marche:MarACY030D
10.84737756	Marche:MarACW030D
10.98181224	Marche:MarABN020D
10.98370611	Umbria:PG08
11.01906530	Marche:MarABY030D
11.06733934	Molise:PG27
11.13127576	Marche:MarABG010D
11.22854844	Veneto:ALP378
11.36919082	Marche:MarABQ080D
11.54365194	Veneto:ALP273
11.55654360	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
11.57606151	Veneto:ALP322
11.59807312	Umbria:PG06
11.70610952	Lazio:PG30

---

Distance to:	Albanian:AL29
2.95321858	Umbria:PG04
3.75586208	Abruzzo:ALP161
4.75093675	Marche:MarACY030D
4.81131999	Marche:MarABY030D
4.82925460	Marche:MarADG030D
4.95409931	Tuscany:VO109
5.10822866	Marche:MarABN020D
5.15958332	Marche:MarACV100D
5.19803809	Marche:MarADC050D
5.40597817	Molise:PG27
5.47920615	Marche:MarABQ080D
5.56533018	Marche:MarABG010D
5.71072675	Marche:MarACO100D
5.87326144	Lazio:PG30
5.97631157	ITS5
6.02895513	Marche:MarACW080D
6.27383455	Umbria:PG11
6.32691078	Marche:MarABP050D
6.39328554	Umbria:PG03
6.56876701	Abruzzo:Alp140
6.58979514	Molise:PG26_Molise
6.63611332	Marche:MarACW030D
6.69433342	Apulia:cera9
6.73080976	Abruzzo:Alp090
6.82302719	Apulia:Pu2

---

Distance to:	Albanian:AL17
2.49731856	Umbria:PG04
3.23845642	Abruzzo:ALP161
4.17936598	Marche:MarADC050D
4.18589298	Marche:MarACY030D
4.21675230	Marche:MarACV100D
4.21902832	Marche:MarADG030D
4.54276348	Marche:MarABN020D
4.62622957	Tuscany:VO109
4.75800378	Marche:MarABQ080D
5.08561697	Marche:MarABY030D
5.08609870	Marche:MarABG010D
5.13507546	Marche:MarACW080D
5.23292461	Molise:PG27
5.25961025	Umbria:PG11
5.31314408	Lazio:PG30
5.47590175	Marche:MarACO100D
5.60398965	Marche:MarABP050D
5.81261559	Marche:MarACW030D
5.85947097	Umbria:PG03
6.09036945	Umbria:PG06
6.15388495	Marche:MarABU050D
6.21459572	ITS5
6.42940899	Umbria:PG08
6.45447906	Molise:PG26_Molise
6.45711236	Lazio:PG28

---

Distance to:	Albanian:AL12
3.78582884	Marche:MarADC050D
4.33865186	Umbria:PG08
4.63721899	Tuscany:VO65
5.27066409	Veneto:ALP209
5.49587118	Tuscany:VO109
5.63255715	Marche:MarACW030D
5.64216271	Umbria:PG04
5.92054896	Marche:MarABU050D
5.95607253	Marche:MarADG030D
5.97453764	Umbria:PG11
6.20506245	Marche:MarACV100D
6.32674482	Tuscany:MURLO114
6.40513856	Marche:MarABQ080D
6.45701944	Umbria:PG12
6.48828174	Marche:MarABG010D
6.54036696	Tuscany:VO59
6.77788315	Marche:MarABN020D
6.78304504	Marche:MarACY030D
6.90411472	Abruzzo:ALP161
7.04853886	Lazio:PG28
7.11023910	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP114
7.13679200	Marche:MarACW080D
7.25733422	Marche:MarABP050D
7.29314747	Marche:MarABI020D
7.54707228	Liguria:ALP099

---

Distance to:	Albanian:AL9
5.35479225	Marche:MarADG030D
5.47200146	Umbria:PG04
5.63879420	Marche:MarACV100D
5.76811061	Veneto:ALP209
5.84665716	Tuscany:VO109
6.26537309	Marche:MarACW030D
6.36008648	Marche:MarABU050D
6.69325780	Umbria:PG08
6.69802956	Marche:MarABG010D
6.79652117	Umbria:PG11
6.83005856	Marche:MarADC050D
7.10505454	Abruzzo:ALP161
7.19623513	Marche:MarACW080D
7.32099037	Tuscany:MURLO114
7.39716838	Marche:MarABN020D
7.50794912	Marche:MarACY030D
7.51221672	Marche:MarABQ080D
7.58893273	Marche:MarABY030D
7.68426965	Tuscany:VO59
7.70999351	Tuscany:VO65
7.82540095	Lazio:PG30
8.02385817	Umbria:PG12
8.26925027	Marche:MarABP050D
8.47895630	Liguria:ALP099
8.51757008	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200

Thanks for taking a look Jov.
Yes it seems from the PCA and the AL9 sample that way. But having seen dozens of various calculator results for various Albanian fora members the consistent close matches are Marche, Swiss Italian, Lombardy, Piedmont (like lol), Tuscany, Greek Central Macedonia, and Moldavian (lol right?).
I think it comes down to similar amounts of base components. Since I saw the results for a Moldavian member and he had similar matches too me with a more Scythian / Sarmatian shift. But then I recalled, was it the Lazaridis paper or some other paper that made that IBD statement. And I was trying to make sense of it. Alas to me historically speaking Marche Lazio etc are central Italian given the history of the region from Naples and below usually being under the same political umbrella, Napolitan, Aragonese etc. While Marche and Lazio IIRC were under Papal influence.

But yeah, still a bit of a puzzle to me given where Umbria, Lazio, Marche, Veneto, Abruzzo, Tuscany are located. Think it might be just a calculator relic. But that IBD part is still rather interesting, since afaik its different from PCA methods.

Another explanation could be-

We have as of now plenty of samples from BA-IA Balkans, and the Szolad samples really foreshadowed the results. It seems BA-IA-Imperial Balkans had particular groups of people with modern North-Central Italian like admixtures. So assuming Albanians are descendants of the southernmost (bar Greek) such stock, they would normally shift further North on the PCA post Slavic migration, giving the relic we see in the calculators.

That could possibly explain the IBD sharing, since as you have mentioned many times we have this eastern med continuum in BA-IA between mainland Italy, Balkans and maybe other regions yet to be sampled properly (possibly Western Anatolia, if it was ancient Greek like during BA-IA IE migrations. Such continuum being likely created by certain groups of people would explain the IBD sharing, since going back generations, ancestors coalesce into a smaller, more compact number exponentially.

@Jovialis, very interesting. I am closest to Albanian_82 but I realized that some of these Albanian samples are quite strange with 1 having almost 2% SSA and they’re not that close to my South Albanian friend. Perhaps there’s not much variety and they all come from more or less the same region.

As for the North-Eastern shift, I “discovered” that using Western_Scythians as well as Slavs works better than simply Balkan/Italian+Slav. Those Western_Scythians look more Dacian/Carpathian in my opinion. Their Gedrosia is also way too high and the lack of Gedrosia in Slavs is what makes it problematic to be 80% Balkan % + 20% Slav.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dushman

@Jovialis, very interesting. I am closest to Albanian_82 but I realized that some of these Albanian samples are quite strange with 1 having almost 2% SSA and they’re not that close to my South Albanian friend. Perhaps there’s not much variety and they all come from more or less the same region.

As for the North-Eastern shift, I “discovered” that using Western_Scythians as well as Slavs works better than simply Balkan/Italian+Slav. Those Western_Scythians look more Dacian/Carpathian in my opinion. Their Gedrosia is also way too high and the lack of Gedrosia in Slavs is what makes it problematic to be 80% Balkan % + 20% Slav.

---

Do these Western Scythians look like some Slavo - Scandinavian Vikings autosomally? Cause running various AC-BC calculations it seems to me the contribution at least for Albanians seems much more Eastern Slavic(Ukraine Varangian, various Smolensk Varangian) than Central/Northern Slavic (Poland-Czech).

The question then becomes what proportion of this "Northeast" admixture can be attributed to steppe migration and what proportion to Slavic migration. We can't say for certain where the probable Proto-Albanians lived, but there's a good idea. Also, because there are still a great deal of gaps, and because there are no samples from that area. I would find it odd if there was little to no autosomal continuity between modern Albanians and Proto-Albanians. Where could such a population have lived during antiquity or the late iron age if Proto-Albanians resembled a more southern Greek-like population? This leaves me scratching my head.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Because of this, modern Albanians plot more with Central and South-Central Italians (Umbria, Marche, Lazio, Abruzzo):

Distance to:	Albanian:AL98
4.66890780	Umbria:PG04
5.21887919	Abruzzo:ALP161
6.04719770	Molise:PG27
6.49398183	Marche:MarABY030D
6.51769131	Abruzzo:Alp140
6.66135121	Marche:MarACY030D
6.74485730	Marche:MarACW080D
6.74894807	Apulia:Pu2
6.84334713	Abruzzo:Alp616
6.92559745	Marche:MarACV100D
6.92693294	Basilicata:PG21
6.98238498	Umbria:PG06
6.98247807	Marche:MarABN020D
7.01667300	Marche:MarADG030D
7.18716912	Molise:PG26_Molise
7.26298837	Marche:MarACO100D
7.37433387	Marche:MarADC050D
7.37997967	Abruzzo:Alp162
7.62638184	ITS5
7.86326904	Umbria:PG11
7.90179094	Marche:MarABQ080D
7.96841264	Apulia:GS34
7.98931787	Abruzzo:Alp090
8.04067161	Lazio:PG30
8.06556880	Marche:MarABP050D

---

Distance to:	Albanian:AL82
8.42498071	Umbria:PG04
9.49236535	Veneto:ALP209
9.58334493	Marche:MarACV100D
9.63746336	Abruzzo:ALP161
9.65626739	Marche:MarADG030D
9.72964542	Marche:MarADC050D
10.04359000	Tuscany:VO109
10.39588861	Marche:MarACW080D
10.66618957	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP233
10.72991146	Marche:MarABU050D
10.81559984	Umbria:PG11
10.83408510	Marche:MarACY030D
10.84737756	Marche:MarACW030D
10.98181224	Marche:MarABN020D
10.98370611	Umbria:PG08
11.01906530	Marche:MarABY030D
11.06733934	Molise:PG27
11.13127576	Marche:MarABG010D
11.22854844	Veneto:ALP378
11.36919082	Marche:MarABQ080D
11.54365194	Veneto:ALP273
11.55654360	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
11.57606151	Veneto:ALP322
11.59807312	Umbria:PG06
11.70610952	Lazio:PG30

---

Distance to:	Albanian:AL29
2.95321858	Umbria:PG04
3.75586208	Abruzzo:ALP161
4.75093675	Marche:MarACY030D
4.81131999	Marche:MarABY030D
4.82925460	Marche:MarADG030D
4.95409931	Tuscany:VO109
5.10822866	Marche:MarABN020D
5.15958332	Marche:MarACV100D
5.19803809	Marche:MarADC050D
5.40597817	Molise:PG27
5.47920615	Marche:MarABQ080D
5.56533018	Marche:MarABG010D
5.71072675	Marche:MarACO100D
5.87326144	Lazio:PG30
5.97631157	ITS5
6.02895513	Marche:MarACW080D
6.27383455	Umbria:PG11
6.32691078	Marche:MarABP050D
6.39328554	Umbria:PG03
6.56876701	Abruzzo:Alp140
6.58979514	Molise:PG26_Molise
6.63611332	Marche:MarACW030D
6.69433342	Apulia:cera9
6.73080976	Abruzzo:Alp090
6.82302719	Apulia:Pu2

---

Distance to:	Albanian:AL17
2.49731856	Umbria:PG04
3.23845642	Abruzzo:ALP161
4.17936598	Marche:MarADC050D
4.18589298	Marche:MarACY030D
4.21675230	Marche:MarACV100D
4.21902832	Marche:MarADG030D
4.54276348	Marche:MarABN020D
4.62622957	Tuscany:VO109
4.75800378	Marche:MarABQ080D
5.08561697	Marche:MarABY030D
5.08609870	Marche:MarABG010D
5.13507546	Marche:MarACW080D
5.23292461	Molise:PG27
5.25961025	Umbria:PG11
5.31314408	Lazio:PG30
5.47590175	Marche:MarACO100D
5.60398965	Marche:MarABP050D
5.81261559	Marche:MarACW030D
5.85947097	Umbria:PG03
6.09036945	Umbria:PG06
6.15388495	Marche:MarABU050D
6.21459572	ITS5
6.42940899	Umbria:PG08
6.45447906	Molise:PG26_Molise
6.45711236	Lazio:PG28

---

Distance to:	Albanian:AL12
3.78582884	Marche:MarADC050D
4.33865186	Umbria:PG08
4.63721899	Tuscany:VO65
5.27066409	Veneto:ALP209
5.49587118	Tuscany:VO109
5.63255715	Marche:MarACW030D
5.64216271	Umbria:PG04
5.92054896	Marche:MarABU050D
5.95607253	Marche:MarADG030D
5.97453764	Umbria:PG11
6.20506245	Marche:MarACV100D
6.32674482	Tuscany:MURLO114
6.40513856	Marche:MarABQ080D
6.45701944	Umbria:PG12
6.48828174	Marche:MarABG010D
6.54036696	Tuscany:VO59
6.77788315	Marche:MarABN020D
6.78304504	Marche:MarACY030D
6.90411472	Abruzzo:ALP161
7.04853886	Lazio:PG28
7.11023910	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP114
7.13679200	Marche:MarACW080D
7.25733422	Marche:MarABP050D
7.29314747	Marche:MarABI020D
7.54707228	Liguria:ALP099

---

Distance to:	Albanian:AL9
5.35479225	Marche:MarADG030D
5.47200146	Umbria:PG04
5.63879420	Marche:MarACV100D
5.76811061	Veneto:ALP209
5.84665716	Tuscany:VO109
6.26537309	Marche:MarACW030D
6.36008648	Marche:MarABU050D
6.69325780	Umbria:PG08
6.69802956	Marche:MarABG010D
6.79652117	Umbria:PG11
6.83005856	Marche:MarADC050D
7.10505454	Abruzzo:ALP161
7.19623513	Marche:MarACW080D
7.32099037	Tuscany:MURLO114
7.39716838	Marche:MarABN020D
7.50794912	Marche:MarACY030D
7.51221672	Marche:MarABQ080D
7.58893273	Marche:MarABY030D
7.68426965	Tuscany:VO59
7.70999351	Tuscany:VO65
7.82540095	Lazio:PG30
8.02385817	Umbria:PG12
8.26925027	Marche:MarABP050D
8.47895630	Liguria:ALP099
8.51757008	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200

---

Is this using G25 coordinates? Would be happy to share mine to compare with the other Albanians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne

Do these Western Scythians look like some Slavo - Scandinavian Vikings autosomally? Cause running various AC-BC calculations it seems to me the contribution at least for Albanians seems much more Eastern Slavic(Ukraine Varangian, various Smolensk Varangian) than Central/Northern Slavic (Poland-Czech).

---

Western_Scythian:MJ-13:Jarve_2019,10.64,1.41,0,0,20.1,51.19,1.13,3.02,1.35,0,11.15,0
Western_Scythian:MJ-14:Jarve_2019,0,0,0,0.64,20.2,56.05,3.47,1.39,0,0, 18.24,0
Western_Scythian:MJ-15:Jarve_2019,19.47,9.31,1.43,3.53,13.87,36.53,4.6 6,0,0,1.96,8.53,0.7
Western_Scythian:MJ-16:Jarve_2019,14.16,8.26,0.31,0,20.61,36.99,1.49,0 ,0,1.48,15.71,0.99
Western_Scythian:MJ-34:Jarve_2019,15.63,6.13,1.19,0,19.5,39.75,0,0.92, 0,0.54,15.34,1.01
Western_Scythian:MJ-35:Jarve_2019,18.53,6.95,0,0,18.82,39.48,3.67,0.83 ,1.76,0.22,9.73,0
Western_Scythian:MJ-46:Jarve_2019,13.6,6.64,0,1.02,23.49,38.42,1.28,1, 0,2.69,11.61,0.25
Western_Scythian:MJ-47:Jarve_2019,17.47,1.15,0,0,18.91,24.94,3.29,0.63,1.49,3.63,28.48,0

The highlighted numbers are the Dodecad K12b for Gedrosia, Atlantic, North European, and Caucasus.

I get a decent distance in the 2way Vahaduo with a 83% Logkas02 + 17% Western Scythian. This distance would be better with additional early Slav and another possible component to balance out the Caucasus %.

Anyway, we need more Roman period Central-Western Balkan samples that could make things easier than using Logkas02 and BA Illyrians as a model.

Still, the absorption of a considerable (maybe 10-20%) of Dacian/Carpathian/so-called West Scythian/Cimmerians makes the modern Albanian results more logical rather than purely 20+% Slavic which does not add up at all.

As a beginner that I am, I have no access nor knowledge to tools that can include 3way or even 4 and 5way options to test it myself, so I'm limited to Vahaduo.

Distance to:	Dushman
2.26419944	78.60% PG27_Molise + 21.40% Western_Scythian:MJ-14:Jarve_2019
2.66266775	74.00% NaN238DM_Campania + 26.00% Western_Scythian:MJ-14:Jarve_2019
2.69995764	82.00% ALP161_Abruzzo + 18.00% Western_Scythian:MJ-14:Jarve_2019
2.90314649	30.80% Western_Scythian:MJ-14:Jarve_2019 + 69.20% Szolad40:Amorim_2018
2.97388276	83.40% PG27_Molise + 16.60% Early_Medieval_Czechs_(n=2)

Target: Dushman Distance: 1.5872% / 1.58717788 | R4P
41.4	Pu3_Apulia
24.1	ALP233_Friuli-Venezia-Giulia
20.9	Thraco-Cimmerian
13.6	Western_Scythian

Target: Dushman Distance: 1.6176% / 1.61758475 | R4P
35.7	Pu3_Apulia
28.9	ALP188_Friuli-Venezia-Giulia
24.3	Szolad19
11.1	Szolad20

A lot of Northern Albanians are closer to Northern/Central Italians than Southern Italians, such as myself. Apulia is the closest southern population to me, other South Italian groups, not as much. This is my Eurogenes K36 similarity map, I haven't done G25 yet but I will soon to compare the differences with K36.


Attachment 13321

Not sure why the file size decreased when I uploaded this screenshot, made it blurry

Venice: 77
Lombardy: 74
Tuscany: 73
Apulia: 73
Rome: 71
Marche: 70
Sicily: 68
Naples: 67
Calabria: 65

Outside of the Balkans and Italy, my closest matches are Swiss Italian, and Southern German (Both 69%). Northern Albanians and Albanians from Montenegro seem to have a slight north-west pull compared to other Albanians, and slightly higher Atlantic and Baltic by a few %.

Found the vahaduo source. This is what I get with G25 against entire moderns database. Not sure what calc everyone is using.

https://i.postimg.cc/zGKJ8Twc/dib.png

https://i.postimg.cc/VNsLgdMZ/dib.png

@Dibran, the ones I posted are from Dodecad K12b, but use the same Italian modern samples (provided by Salento)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

@Dibran, the ones I posted are from Dodecad K12b, but use the same Italian modern samples (provided by Salento)

---

Where do you get the datasheet? since they took most of the calculators off vahaduo. The only ones I found online were the G25 ones for download.