Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

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Originally Posted by Angela

I agree with Khan. I don't see how that makes anything clearer.

We just have to wait for the actual samples.

As pertains to the comments on the "Turtle Island" site, you gotta love how "Andrew" doesn't care that the "leaks" are that the Etruscans were nearly identical to the Italics genetically. He knows better, and they aren't.

If, when the samples are published, they indeed turn out to be like Italics, then it's irrelevant what anyone has speculated in the past. Any explanations will have to take that into account.

Language is separate from genetics. You'd think the Basques would have taught us that.

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You know, I have wondered if the fact that Etruscans seem to have developed from a subset of Urnfield culture, which also occupied much of what already had steppic ancestry since many centuries before and would be certainly IE-speaking areas centuries later, tell us something about what the Urnfield was really about. I'm thinking of something like the High Middle Ages civilization of Catholic Christendom in Europe, which was multilingual and multicultural, but there were clear common features and a sense of loose sociocultural connection because of a shared religion (and we know a shared religious identity would manifest particularly well in people's burial traditions). If the Bronze Age in much of the central part of Europe experienced somewhat of a religious revolution, causing some sense of being part of a shared civilization, despite cultural and linguistic diversity, it could explain the genetic homogeneization and partial cultural homogeneization without them speaking the same language Family.

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Originally Posted by Ygorcs

You know, I have wondered if the fact that Etruscans seem to have developed from a subset of Urnfield culture, which also occupied much of what already had steppic ancestry since many centuries before and would be certainly IE-speaking areas centuries later, tell us something about what the Urnfield was really about. I'm thinking of something like the High Middle Ages civilization of Catholic Christendom in Europe, which was multilingual and multicultural, but there were clear common features and a sense of loose sociocultural connection because of a shared religion (and we know a shared religious identity would manifest particularly well in people's burial traditions). If the Bronze Age in much of the central part of Europe experienced somewhat of a religious revolution, causing some sense of being part of a shared civilization, despite cultural and linguistic diversity, it could explain the genetic homogeneization and partial cultural homogeneization without them speaking the same language Family.

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It's certainly possible, Ygorcs.

We're working in the dark now because we have so few samples from so many areas of ancient Italy that it's difficult to come to firm conclusions.

It certainly will help to get more of a fix on the Etruscans autosomally, but we need to compare them with people from earlier periods from north of them on the Italian peninsula, imo, as well as with Italics like Umbrians. We also need to compare them to Romans from the early Republican period, before Rome became a great metropolis and the capital city of an international empire.

What isn't helpful in figuring out the relationship between them and the Romans genetically is labeling, before even seeing the studies and examining the samples, Empire Era merchants living in Ostia, most of them "Greco-Oriental" in origin from the inscriptions, "Romans". Sorry, those were not Italic Romans. Geneticists have got to define what they mean by "Romans". It changed over time: by the third century people from England to Damascus and Egypt would have considered themselves Romans. Of course, it's perfectly possible that some of those people, or their children, stayed in Italy and blended into the population. We just don't know how widespread this phenomena was, whether it was localized to port cities, whether it was widespread, what happened to the big urban populations with the fall and on and on.

Some people want the Genetics for Dummies version. It won't work with such a complicated history.

People approach this topic without even the most basic understanding of Roman history. It's just very disheartening.

I find it amusing that now that the Etruscans may perhaps be more "northern" than once thought, all of a sudden there are all these posts on the net about how much they contributed to making "Rome" Rome.

I have news for these people: the Etruscans got none of those things from central Europe; they are all improvements on the civilization of Greece and Anatolia. :)

What is even more amusing is my memory of how, even on this site, there were those opining that the modern Italians were much more "Etruscan" like in character than Roman like, which was not a good thing, of course. :)

It always amazes me how the Etruscans always attract the comments of people who know nothing about the Etruscans. Apart from commonplaces, of course.

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Originally Posted by Ygorcs

You know, I have wondered if the fact that Etruscans seem to have developed from a subset of Urnfield culture, which also occupied much of what already had steppic ancestry since many centuries before and would be certainly IE-speaking areas centuries later, tell us something about what the Urnfield was really about. I'm thinking of something like the High Middle Ages civilization of Catholic Christendom in Europe, which was multilingual and multicultural, but there were clear common features and a sense of loose sociocultural connection because of a shared religion (and we know a shared religious identity would manifest particularly well in people's burial traditions). If the Bronze Age in much of the central part of Europe experienced somewhat of a religious revolution, causing some sense of being part of a shared civilization, despite cultural and linguistic diversity, it could explain the genetic homogeneization and partial cultural homogeneization without them speaking the same language Family.

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It is what I thought and think yet about Urnfields. Some old scholars (archeology of the 1960/70) said that already: a lot of true moves on diverse directions, maybe pushed by a demographic increase in some places, and new cultural exchanges and adoptions, without an unique centre of origin concerning demes, and without a complete osmosis, just partial leveling.

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Originally Posted by Angela

It's certainly possible, Ygorcs.

We're working in the dark now because we have so few samples from so many areas of ancient Italy that it's difficult to come to firm conclusions.

It certainly will help to get more of a fix on the Etruscans autosomally, but we need to compare them with people from earlier periods from north of them on the Italian peninsula, imo, as well as with Italics like Umbrians. We also need to compare them to Romans from the early Republican period, before Rome became a great metropolis and the capital city of an international empire.

What isn't helpful in figuring out the relationship between them and the Romans genetically is labeling, before even seeing the studies and examining the samples, Empire Era merchants living in Ostia, most of them "Greco-Oriental" in origin from the inscriptions, "Romans". Sorry, those were not Italic Romans. Geneticists have got to define what they mean by "Romans". It changed over time: by the third century people from England to Damascus and Egypt would have considered themselves Romans. Of course, it's perfectly possible that some of those people, or their children, stayed in Italy and blended into the population. We just don't know how widespread this phenomena was, whether it was localized to port cities, whether it was widespread, what happened to the big urban populations with the fall and on and on.

Some people want the Genetics for Dummies version. It won't work with such a complicated history.

People approach this topic without even the most basic understanding of Roman history. It's just very disheartening.

I find it amusing that now that the Etruscans may perhaps be more "northern" than once thought, all of a sudden there are all these posts on the net about how much they contributed to making "Rome" Rome.

I have news for these people: the Etruscans got none of those things from central Europe; they are all improvements on the civilization of Greece and Anatolia. :)

What is even more amusing is my memory of how, even on this site, there were those opining that the modern Italians were much more "Etruscan" like in character than Roman like, which was not a good thing, of course. :)

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how exactly did the greeks influence the tyrsennians, as they called them ?



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Originally Posted by lynxbythetv

how exactly did the greeks influence the tyrsennians, as they called them ?



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Perhaps you're new at this, so...

Let's look at generalities...

"Western Asia and the Near East was the first region to enter the Bronze Age, which began with the rise of the Mesopotamian civilization of Sumer in the mid 4th millennium BC. Cultures in the ancient Near East (often called one of "the cradles of civilization") practiced intensive year-round agriculture, developed a writing system, invented the potter's wheel, created a centralized government, written law codes, city and nation states and empires, embarked on advanced architectural projects, introduced social stratification, economic and civil administration, slavery, and practiced organized warfare, medicine and religion. Societies in the region laid the foundations for astronomy, mathematics and astrology."

All of this was transmitted to the Etruscans either through the Greeks or more directly through trade with the Phoenicians. The alphabet, which they then passed on to the Latin speaking Romans, and thence to the rest of Europe, is a good example.

You can find some information in this google book, although as always it's irritating because just as you get to the "good" parts, there are pages missing. You can see, though, the change in architecture, for example, not only for megastructures, but in house design.
https://books.google.com/books?id=HA...uscans&f=false

They went a long way very quickly from mud and wattle circular huts to this:

https://i.imgur.com/yCsFFSy.jpg

I'd buy it tomorrow. :)

https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws...0343588155.png

Then, of course, particularly in pottery and the arts,there's what is called the "Orientalizing period". You can look it up on Wiki.

The fact that there is such a quick change from a rather primitive culture to a very sophisticated one is why some people found it hard to credit that this was an autochthonous Italian culture. If the leaks are correct that is precisely the case, however, which makes their achievements even more remarkable.

It has to also be said that although they did a lot of borrowing, unlike some cultures they did a lot of innovation as well, making those "borrowings" very much their own. One example from the social sphere involves their borrowing the "symposia" form of feasting, eating, in company while reclining.

Whereas in the east it was limited to men, in Etruscan society women were part of the social gatherings, leading to the Greek calumny about them that their women were all prostitutes.

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Originally Posted by Angela

…………..)

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Kind of off topic. I had to change my password 4 times today. Additionally, I made sure they would be entered correctly. Each time locking me out automatically for incorrect entry which is beyond false. This is now my 4th password change in a day.

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Originally Posted by Dibran

Kind of off topic. I had to change my password 4 times today. Additionally, I made sure they would be entered correctly. Each time locking me out automatically for incorrect entry which is beyond false. This is now my 4th password change in a day.

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It happens to me as well. I get locked out, but later the password will work.

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Originally Posted by Dibran

Kind of off topic. I had to change my password 4 times today. Additionally, I made sure they would be entered correctly. Each time locking me out automatically for incorrect entry which is beyond false. This is now my 4th password change in a day.

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I have to change at random intervals of 1 minute - 1 hour .... the forum account. This has been happening continuously for about a month now ... Why? God knows ... and his angels.:distrust:

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Originally Posted by Angela

Perhaps you're new at this, so...

Let's look at generalities...

"Western Asia and the Near East was the first region to enter the Bronze Age, which began with the rise of the Mesopotamian civilization of Sumer in the mid 4th millennium BC. Cultures in the ancient Near East (often called one of "the cradles of civilization") practiced intensive year-round agriculture, developed a writing system, invented the potter's wheel, created a centralized government, written law codes, city and nation states and empires, embarked on advanced architectural projects, introduced social stratification, economic and civil administration, slavery, and practiced organized warfare, medicine and religion. Societies in the region laid the foundations for astronomy, mathematics and astrology."

All of this was transmitted to the Etruscans either through the Greeks or more directly through trade with the Phoenicians. The alphabet, which they then passed on to the Latin speaking Romans, and thence to the rest of Europe, is a good example.

You can find some information in this google book, although as always it's irritating because just as you get to the "good" parts, there are pages missing. You can see, though, the change in architecture, for example, not only for megastructures, but in house design.
https://books.google.com/books?id=HA...uscans&f=false

They went a long way very quickly from mud and wattle circular huts to this:

https://i.imgur.com/yCsFFSy.jpg

I'd buy it tomorrow. :)

https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws...0343588155.png

Then, of course, particularly in pottery and the arts,there's what is called the "Orientalizing period". You can look it up on Wiki.

The fact that there is such a quick change from a rather primitive culture to a very sophisticated one is why some people found it hard to credit that this was an autochthonous Italian culture. If the leaks are correct that is precisely the case, however, which makes their achievements even more remarkable.

It has to also be said that although they did a lot of borrowing, unlike some cultures they did a lot of innovation as well, making those "borrowings" very much their own. One example from the social sphere involves their borrowing the "symposia" form of feasting, eating, in company while reclining.

Whereas in the east it was limited to men, in Etruscan society women were part of the social gatherings, leading to the Greek calumny about them that their women were all prostitutes.

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thankyou, quality info.

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Originally Posted by Jovialis

https://i.imgur.com/wy1D99N.png

By the Late Republic, if the Italics from the steppe did mix with the Aegean-like populations in Southern Italy; figures C and F sort of look like Italia during that time.

https://i.imgur.com/OfNKOe3.jpg

Moreover, my K36 heat map sort of looks like a silhouette of the Roman empire.

https://i.imgur.com/550now6.png

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Map of Caesarian and Augustan Roman colonies during the Imperial era:

https://i.imgur.com/cqGHsjI.gif

https://www.britannica.com/place/Roman-Empire

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Originally Posted by I()

I have to change at random intervals of 1 minute - 1 hour .... the forum account. This has been happening continuously for about a month now ... Why? God knows ... and his angels.:distrust:

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Originally Posted by Jovialis

It happens to me as well. I get locked out, but later the password will work.

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Yup. 2 times again today. Quite annoying lol.

Attachment 11463Your heat map look like Roman Empire, wonder what mine looks like...uhh, Empire of the Franks?

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Originally Posted by Jovialis

Map of Caesarian and Augustan Roman colonies around the beginning of the Imperial era:

https://i.imgur.com/cqGHsjI.gif

https://www.britannica.com/place/Roman-Empire

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Nice find, Jovialis.

I'd forgotten about all those colonies along the Dalmatian coast and is it part of Albania as well?

I have quite a few friends from that part of Croatia (the islands too). Between the two world wars they were part of "us" again. They all speak some Italian, and wholeheartedly adopted the cuisine. Actually, parts of it they'd always had, I think. A lot of Northern Italian restaurants in New York are actually owned by Croatians. They go by their Italian first names to seem more "authentic". :)

Fine by me. Two of my uncles (and one aunt) had restaurants, highly successful ones too, and none of their children wanted to continue them. The restaurant "life" is a really difficult one. If the Croatians are willing to do it, more power to them.

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Originally Posted by Angela

Nice find, Jovialis.

I'd forgotten about all those colonies along the Dalmatian coast and is it part of Albania as well?

I have quite a few friends from that part of Croatia (the islands too). Between the two world wars they were part of "us" again. They all speak some Italian, and wholeheartedly adopted the cuisine. Actually, parts of it they'd always had, I think. A lot of Northern Italian restaurants in New York are actually owned by Croatians. They go by their Italian first names to seem more "authentic". :)

Fine by me. Two of my uncles (and one aunt) had restaurants, highly successful ones too, and none of their children wanted to continue them. The restaurant "life" is a really difficult one. If the Croatians are willing to do it, more power to them.

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Indeed it is, my friend's wife's family are Albanians, and her cousins can speak Italian fluently. Moreover, they have lived in Italy prior to coming to the USA. I also knew a Croatian girl, from one of the Islands near Venice, she was also fluent in Italian.

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Originally Posted by Jovialis

Map of Caesarian and Augustan Roman colonies during the Imperial era:

https://i.imgur.com/cqGHsjI.gif

https://www.britannica.com/place/Roman-Empire

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Nice discovery Jovialis :)

I'm not Italian, but an Iberian descendant. In many autosomal calculators I have a great overlapping with Northern Italia, for example, Eurogenes K36 and LM Genetics, among others:

LM Genetics:

https://i.imgur.com/aCiVwnU.jpg

Eurogenes - nMonte3 Oracle Results - YourPortalDNA

Eurogenes K36
Europe : 99%
West Asia: 0.8 %
Sub-Saharan Africa: 0.2%
TOTAL: 100%:

https://i.imgur.com/YqCWVGj.png
https://i.imgur.com/4HkCsn0.png

Interesting that my map from ancient times of MyTrueAncestry - MTA reminds much this map of Roman Empire that shows roman the colonies on the begining of Imperial era, except, in my specific case, the Greece, Anatolia and Sicily, and It can explain, I think, the matches that appears for Italins and Iberians in MTA to samples of ancient Illyrians:

https://i.imgur.com/F8syVlL.png


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https://i.imgur.com/taAnT63.png

^what are the red lines showing?

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Originally Posted by Ailchu

^what are the red lines showing?

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It just outlines the continuum between SBA, ABA, AN, and along with the resurgence of WHG, to form the modern Italian populations, as well as the others within it.

Which can be seen in the modeling:

https://i.imgur.com/vl8tToO.png

I am very curious to know the Y-DNA of more Etruscan samples. Was that J2b2-L283 an outlier or it was a common Y-DNA among them.

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Originally Posted by Jovialis

It just outlines the continuum between SBA, ABA, AN, and along with the resurgence of WHG, to form the modern Italian populations, as well as the others within it.

Which can be seen in the modeling:

https://i.imgur.com/vl8tToO.png

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i see. it's not very accurate though if we just use those 4 as direct sources for modern europeans.

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Originally Posted by Ailchu

i see. it's not very accurate though if we just use those 4 as direct sources for modern europeans.

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Wouldn't there be some Uralic Sammi type stuff there too?

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Originally Posted by Jovialis

It just outlines the continuum between SBA, ABA, AN, and along with the resurgence of WHG, to form the modern Italian populations, as well as the others within it.

Which can be seen in the modeling:

https://i.imgur.com/vl8tToO.png

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I'm confused by this graph. Which color is WHG? And why do North Africa and East Africa look so similar?

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Originally Posted by Ailchu

i see. it's not very accurate though if we just use those 4 as direct sources for modern europeans.

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Correct, it wasn't distributed directly from those sources. For example some ABA-like admixture could have come via greek settlement. Some Steppe could have come via central europe, etc.

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Originally Posted by ratchet_fan

I'm confused by this graph. Which color is WHG? And why do North Africa and East Africa look so similar?

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That's from a lack of appropriate sample for those populations, no SSA. North African is the closest to them