Quote:
Originally Posted by Archetype0ne
Indeed, this set didn't have Albanians among them. The values were taken from and excel sheet the Dodecad project page.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archetype0ne
Indeed, this set didn't have Albanians among them. The values were taken from and excel sheet the Dodecad project page.
Following Jovialis Post #274, my results are 100% consistent with what he is showing in that post. I am sitting between the South_Italian_Sicilian combined sample averages and the Tuscan sample averages relative to Bulgarian_I5769.
Distance to: I5769:Mathieson_et_al_2018 4.35862364 C_Italian_D 6.84000000 Sicilian_D 7.14573999 S_Italian_Sicilian_D 7.61975721 PalermoTrapani_Combined 8.86282122 Tuscan 9.62546622 TSI30 9.75733570 Greek_D 10.20468520 Ashkenazi_D 10.67040768 Ashkenazy_Jews 13.56376054 O_Italian_D 14.68657891 Sephardic_Jews 14.70032653 Morocco_Jews 15.69992357 North_Italian 17.52265962 N_Italian_D 19.60529520 Canarias_1KG 21.09306995 Murcia_1KG 21.46964369 Andalucia_1KG 22.00703524 Baleares_1KG 22.84621632 Portuguese_D 22.93891017 Cypriots 23.00577319 Extremadura_1KG 23.43219153 Turkish_Aydin_Ho 23.74488577 Turkish_Cypriot_D 24.08098005 Galicia_1KG 24.21164183 Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG
ArchetypeOne: Here is the same analysis that Jovialis did in post #274 and what I did in post #277 using Eurogenes K13 updated Modern Populations which has 3 reference populations from Albania with Eurogenes K13 Ancient Coordinates for Bulgarian I5769.
Distance to: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp 7.91786587 French_Corsica 9.16833136 PalermoTrapani_Combined 9.27951507 Italian_Lazio 9.87052177 Italian_Marche 10.09024281 Italian_Umbria 11.16326117 Italian_Tuscan 11.26628599 Italian_Romagna 11.74729756 Italian_Abruzzo 11.75408440 Italian 11.93531734 Italian_Molise 12.28392038 Italian_Sicily 12.29196486 Italian_Apulia 12.41296902 Italian_Basilicata 13.26128953 Greek_Western-Thrace 13.31609552 Italian_Campania 13.43489486 Italian_Emilia 13.95051970 Italian_Liguria 14.37559738 Malta 14.56942346 Greek_Cyclades 14.56986616 Moroccan_Jew 14.84789547 Italian_Calabria 15.40336002 Greek_Athens 15.53956241 Italian_Lombardy 16.22616714 Greek_Ionia 16.25672476 Albanian_Tosk
Thank you Palermo. As usual your posts I find highly valuable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani
Also, interesting thing. You are in my eyes the biggest proof there is continuity between certain ancient peoples of the Italian peninsula and modern ones. It might not be the case on an average basis. But when these discussions have been mentioned, you have popped in my mind, and I have amended my opinions when I would think different.
Edit: When the Pugliese I-M223 samples BAM file comes out I have a feeling you will find an ancient cousin.
so other italians ( O_Italian ) sit between tuscans and north-italians ................do you have many O_Italian sample .......the only one I recall is from south Ukraine as per dodecad call in 2012 .........bu I was told it was also italians who left istria, dalmatia, tyrol austria, swiss italians and provenzal italians when Nice and part of the french riviera was under Italy ...IIRC about 1861Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
ArchetypeOne: Your welcome my friend. Glad my posts add something to the forum and this thread in particular. Yes, it will be interesting to see how I plot relative to that I-M223 individual. As soon as the Kit is uploaded to GEDMATCH and sample is available at MTA, I plan to do the analysis. So you may be correct but on the other hand, I-M223 has been documented in Italy, Central Italy (Lazio) since late Mesolithic as those WHG in the Antonio et al 2019 paper were all I-M436, with 2 of them in the immediate downstream sub-clade I-M223. There is a pre-print "Genomic and dietary transitions during the Mesolithic and Early Neolithic in Sicily" that I am still hoping gets published soon and BAM files become publicly available as it has some samples from Trapani Province in Sicily (The Grotto Dell Uzzo site) not yet published. 4 WHG's are in the study and 2 of them are Y-DNA I, with one of them I-M436. There are 19 ancient Sicilian Genomes in that study. A couple of heavy hitters are on the paper, i.e. Haak and Krause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archetype0ne
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
I cannot run global 13
but below is my 7
Distance to: TorzioK7 2.67228367 N_Italian 5.24281413 North_Italian 5.67671560 Bulgarians 5.82555577 Romanians 6.63559342 Bulgarian 7.41330561 O_Italian 9.44473928 TSI30 9.53433270 Tuscan 10.58302887 Baleares 11.69294232 Extremadura 12.00096246 Andalucia 12.04304364 Murcia 12.20807520 Galicia 12.49627545 Portuguese 12.51850231 Spaniards 14.00975018 Castilla_La_Mancha 14.02857441 Castilla_Y_Leon 14.24651185 Cataluna 14.24987368 Canarias 14.29945803 Spanish 14.68853635 Valencia 16.08443658 Aragon 16.27375494 C_Italian 16.49227395 Cantabria 16.94057555 French
bulgarians with North -italians
dodecad 7b ancient
I removed everything in AD times
Distance to: TorzioK7 1.61043472 Balkans_BronzeAge:I3313_Croatia_LBA 2.24388057 C7_Iron_Age_European:R474_(Etruscan)_Civitavecchia 2.24486080 Balkans_BronzeAge:I4332__Croatia_EMBA 2.67856305 C7_Iron_Age_European:R1_(Protovillanovan)_Martinsi curo 2.73038459 Balkans_BronzeAge:I4331_Croatia_EMBA 5.03334879 Balkans_BronzeAge:I2165_Bulgaria_EBA 6.72892265 Vucedol:I3499_Croatia_Vucedol 8.72565757 Beaker_N_Italy_BA:I1979
What does this have to do with Bulgarian Iron Age though?Quote:
Originally Posted by torzio
Modern Bulgarians are a 24 plus distances from the Iron Age Bulgarian sample we are talking about
Distance to: Bulgarians_Y 24.21610208 I5769
already placedQuote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post581077
female
"I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)*. Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton in flexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head to SE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper) ornaments smaller than 5 mm."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26416319/
https://i.imgur.com/DoEN3a7.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
All four grandparents of mine, come from the region as Bari. As far as I know, all four of their grandparents do as well. So my sample is a good proxy for the lack of a Puglia sample. Take a look at the PCA, this confirms what I am saying. My sample is pulled slightly upward on the PCA on the z-axis, toward CHG sources. In the opposite direction you have North African influence, which is why Canarias is on a different z-axis from North Italian. Despite Canarias being seemingly on the same general area as North Italian, on a 2D PCA. The 3D PCA shows there is indeed a difference, and that is due to North African influence in Canarias. The same is shown with Moorish samples from Medieval Spain. Seemingly they are with North Italian samples on a 2D PCA, but they actually exist far beneath that cloud cluster of Italian samples, on the z-axis. This is why 3D PCA analysis is far better than 2D.
https://i.imgur.com/WB2KbEl.png
https://i.imgur.com/shj0ULj.png
Samples from Antonio et al. 2019,
Note the half-north African R475 and C3 North African cluster are much lower on the z-axis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
R475 is unlikely half-north African, more likely her non-Etruscan ancestry was a Sardo-Punic mix, so 1/4 north African. You know, they used a neolithic sample from Morocco which also has ancestry from the neolithic of Iberia.
You are confusing Bulgarian modern samples with Bulgaria_Iron AgeQuote:
Originally Posted by torzio
I see, nevertheless the point I was making that it is pulled in the direction of North Africans, is evident by the position on the z-axis of the PCA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax Augusta
The Paleolithic north Africans are even further down on the z axis, with neolithic Morocco intermediate between Europeans and Paleolithic north Africa.
Got it. In any case it is indeed pulled towards North Africans, the Sardinians themselves are in a certain sense, but R475 is not half North African as Antonio 2019 claims (Antonio claims that is 53% African which is even more confusing since we know that North Africans are different genetically from sub-Saharan African populations) and this is proved by the sample used by Antonio which is the same as a previous study that showed that in North Africa there had been gene flow from the Iberian Neolithic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
Maybe carthegenians influnce
On R475:thinking:
Sardo-Punic, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjohn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_people#Sardo-Punics
I posted the mtdna in the future etruscan paperQuote:
Originally Posted by Pax Augusta
If the dude from anthrogenica anlaysis of bam files is valid ...
Than there are 2 individuals who carry mtdna L2
:thinking:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...626#post628626
we will have to wait for the full paper to be published to be sure
But there might be some north african influence even from back in the iron age
If it exist in mtdna types we could see it autosomally speaking in some individuals:thinking:
Sure, it's possible. There were also slaves, not only foreign guests (traders, artisans...). The Etruscans were also as violent and predatory as any other ethnic group of the same era. Just recently, the skeleton of one who had been buried still in chains was found. But without knowing the archaeological context of each find it's not very informative. In any case, the study says that an Etruscan genetic profile is maintained throughout the course of the first millennium BC despite the presence of foreigners.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjohn
TAQ could be Tarquinia, in northern Lazio. I don't know what it could be VEN.
TAQ011 (C7858T 92.0% -0 +4): L2a1c3a
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2a1c3a/
VEN009 (C16355T 87.0% -0 +9): L2b1a
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2b1a/
On Yfull L2a1c3a is found in a Spaniard, L2a1c3a2 in a Slovak. L2a1c3a in particular may have other possible explanations.
L2b1a. On Yfull among the Europeans there is a Spaniard and two Ligurians from Imperia, which is on the border with France.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjohn
I read somewhere that L2a1c3a is pretty common among North Africans. Furthermore, the abstract from this study did mention individuals with North African, Central European and Near Eastern ancestry. However, I don’t know whether they’re referring to mixed Etruscans or foreigners who resided in Etruria.
Ancient Thracians are pretty hard to place among modern populations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax Augusta
an old member of Eupedia
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post427426
surname Corso and paternal Grandfather from Belluno....grandmother from Piemonte
My paternal grandmother is from Mondovì in Piemonte, and my paternal grandfather is from Belluno in Veneto.
Is this the imperia one ?