@Torzio
… I can’t access your PC … yet :grin:
… from your Video: … Terramare refugees bypassed the Etruscans, (guess they weren’t welcome), they kept heading Southeast, except for one group that went to Campania.
https://i.imgur.com/lNHeBZA.jpg
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@Torzio
… I can’t access your PC … yet :grin:
… from your Video: … Terramare refugees bypassed the Etruscans, (guess they weren’t welcome), they kept heading Southeast, except for one group that went to Campania.
https://i.imgur.com/lNHeBZA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WtLBLTG.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Salento
:petrified::laughing:
https://i.imgur.com/tsWmVFy.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Duarte
I'm much more sophisticated than Anonymous.
Maybe he's searching for some Daunian’s .bam :)
Let's hope they are BAM, and not FASTQ. Otherwise, we will become aDNA before they are done processing. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Salento
Quote:
Originally Posted by torzio
I added the workable link
https://www.academia.edu/35896111/Il...erranean_World
Iapodes
The Iapodic territory extended along the Adriatic coastline and covered almost all of modern-day Croatia. Their coastal boundary meant that they had access to trade with the Italic peoples and even Greek merchants. Like the Veneti-Illyrians, the Iapodes emulated Greek and Etruscan artistic conventions, so much so that their works are nearly identical.
https://i.postimg.cc/1zhxQB2N/isapodes.png
9This is certainly one of those Illyrian peoples most scarcely referred to. Straboidentifies them as Pannonian (Illyrian) people, along with Breuci, Deuri, Deretini,Dindari, Ditiones, Ditiones, Maezei and Daesitiates.
12
They started receiving Romancitizenship in the reign of Trajan (AD 98-117), along with other Illyrian communities of southeast Pannonia.
13
Pliny mentions several Pannonian civitates, including that of Andizetes, saying that their name was known before the Roman conquest, along withBoii, Breuci, Amantini, Scordisci and Latobici.
14
Although
they didn‟t
seem to have particularly significant role for the history of Illyrians, the Andizetes might be interesting in linguistic sense, for a mere fact that the
possible root word „
And
‟(izetes)
is among the most frequently occurring linguisticelement throughout the entire territory inhabited by Illyrians, particularly in southeastPannonia. Thus we find personal Illyrian names like Andes (m.)/Andia (f)
in Katiĉić‟s
middle Dalmatian-Pannonian onomastic province (corresponding with modern Bosniaand Herzegovina), but also among the south-Illyrian names, with other variants likeAndena included. This name appears too on the list of Illyrian names in Dardanianterritory, in the form of Andio and Andinus, the latter being found among Dalmatians, inaddition to Andius, found in central Dalmatian group.
15
This is certainly one of those Illyrian peoples most scarcely referred to. Straboidentifies them as Pannonian (Illyrian) people, along with Breuci, Deuri, Deretini, Dindari, Ditiones, Ditiones, Maezei and Daesitiates.
They started receiving Roman citizenship in the reign of Trajan (AD 98-117), along with other Illyrian communities of southeast Pannonia.
Pliny mentions several Pannonian civitates, including that of Andizetes, saying that their name was known before the Roman conquest, along with Boii, Breuci, Amantini, Scordisci and Latobici.
Although they didn‟t seem to have particularly significant role for the history of Illyrians, the Andizetes might be interesting in linguistic sense, for a mere fact that the possible root word „And‟(izetes)
is among the most frequently occurring linguistic element throughout the entire territory inhabited by Illyrians, particularly in southeast Pannonia. Thus we find personal Illyrian names like Andes (m.)/Andia (f)in Katiĉić‟s middle Dalmatian-Pannonian onomastic province (corresponding with modern Bosniaand Herzegovina), but also among the south-Illyrian names, with other variants like Andena included. This name appears too on the list of Illyrian names in Dardanian territory, in the form of Andio and Andinus, the latter being found among Dalmatians, in addition to Andius, found in central Dalmatian group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjohn
if we add the ancient croatian paper samples from august........
we report new whole-genome data for 28 individuals dated to between ~ 4700 BCE–400 CE from two sites in present-day eastern Croatia.
In the Middle Neolithic we evidence first cousin mating practices and strong genetic continuity
from the Early Neolithic. In the Middle Bronze Age community that we studied, we find multiple
closely related males suggesting a patrilocal social organisation. We also find in that community an
unexpected genetic ancestry profile distinct from individuals found at contemporaneous sites in the
region, due to the addition of hunter-gatherer-related ancestry. These findings support archaeological
evidence for contacts with communities further north in the Carpathian Basin. Finally, an individual
dated to Roman times exhibits an ancestry profile that is broadly present in the region today, adding
an important data point to the substantial shift in ancestry that occurred in the region between the
Bronze Age and today.
8 x G2a ydna
2 x I2a ydna
1 x R1b
1 X J
1 x C
so ancient Illyrians have G2a, I2a, J2b and R1b as majority ..................clearly G2a is in majority
ORD001 was found to be the daughter of ORD009, with a much more Rome_Republican makeup, with an (unsampled) father who was certainly much more Caucasian and Middle Eastern-shifted, given the admixture makeup of the daughter ORD001. So ORD001 represents a very recent inter-ethnic mixing, not an average individual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
Tarquinius Priscus married an aristocratic Etruscan lady called Tanaquil so even Etruscan nobles did marry people of foreign extraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax Augusta
Maybe public office was confined to a fixed and limited number of important families in Etruscan city states like Tarquinia.
Rome on the other hand had a much more open society reflected in the legend that Romulus instituted an Asylum for foreigners, slave and free, to increase the population of early Rome.
Being that R850 is in the range of the father, who would be about equidistant from the Mother ORD009; I think it is likely that the more recent ancestry would be similar. R850 was a C5 person in Antonio et al. 2019 (Eastern Mediterranean, similar to modern Maltese-Cypriots). I think if this kind of ancestry was found in Central Italy, among a member of a Latin tribe, it is not unlikely to found in Puglia in the south. In Antonio et al. 2019, R850 formed a clade with Anatolian_IA. I would bet the father of ORD001 would also be a part of that clade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ygorcs
Daunians seem like Sardinian shifted Tuscans just like Etruscans are like Sardinian-shifted Northern Italians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
To me it seems that Native Campanians fall into the Native-Apulian cluster, otherwise what is filling the empty space between the Aegean Cluster in the PCA below? Otherwise in that case Daunians would be closer to ancient Greeks than they actually are. Maybe I am wrong. Those "Etruscans" in this PCA, might not be the same as the ones we have seen, as they are even more eastern shifted than the Italics.
https://i.imgur.com/zvfz03q.jpg
Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean 0.05085882 Sicilian_East 0.05509976 Greek_Crete 0.05545855 ITA_Sicily_LBA
Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2 0.04994000 Sicilian_East 0.05175499 ITA_Sicily_LBA 0.05421812 Greek_Crete
Native Sicilians were not so different from old Greeks, it's just that they were shifted in a Western direction.
They were as close as modern Cretans are. Now I wish we had Daunian samples.
Me too, it is hard to guage when, some papers have released samples before even publishing, some a few days after the study is published from peer-review.Quote:
Originally Posted by ihype02
IHYPE 02: "Native Sicilians were not so different from old Greeks, it's just that they were shifted in a Western direction.
They were as close as modern Cretans are."
Thank-you. I've only been saying that for ten years. :) It took a long time to get actual proof.
Now what I want to see is Bronze Age samples from the Salento, Basilicata, Calabria.
Are they even supposed to publish them? I don't think they are coming, unless someone contacts them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
Have you noticed how both Etruscans and Daunians are genetically diverse towards Sardinians. Maybe that existed in Sicily, from Sardinian shifted West Sicilians (that we have already seen) towards Minoans in the East like the Bell_Beaker_Sicily.
Daunians will be even closer to Classical Greeks than the LBA Sicilians. I expect Lucanians to be like Daunians (I wont accept the rumours about them being Etruscan-like until I see it) and Eastern Sicilians to shift towards Bell_Beaker_Sicily.
It's a pity that you really can't look at them, even with one eye!Quote:
Originally Posted by ihype02
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihype02
more like ............etruscans and daunians are more northern shifted ( daunians came from dalmatia and liburnia lands ) ............and Lucanians and Bruttians are Samnite in origin and the samnites are Umbri in origin and Umbri are also northern shifted
Italy is isolated by the sea. Daunians and Messapians did not pop out of nowhere without 'cousins' in there. Maybe you are right but I prefer to wait and see actual Lucanian samples. I don't believe the Illyrian hypothesis. (Regarding Apulia)Quote:
Originally Posted by torzio
Etruscans spoke a non IE language after all.
The Goths had already run through the Balkans before SGR001 lived in Daunia. The east shift probably came from there. It would be interesting if SGR001 were even more east shifted at this time. The Volga to middle east connection could be a way, or known Byzantine guards. I hope we get a BAM to determine a subclade.
correctQuote:
Originally Posted by I1a3_Young
Early Medieval individual (SGR001 (670 - 774 AD )
IIRC , someone said a goth from modern Moldova ( bessarabia province ) ....I will recheck
the region was inhabited by Thracians, as well as for shorter periods by Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, and Celts, specifically by tribes such as the Costoboci, Carpi,
The carpi where with the Goths
could be any of these
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihype02
again … from Apulia, I don’t know to what extent my results correlate to Antiquity,
… fwiw … though by distance while I’m not close to the Illyrians, it seems that they have left genetic markers in my chromosomes:
https://i.imgur.com/Sntvvym.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eJEIX9T.jpg
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...831?show=reads
Bam files are released.
Great! I've been keeping an eye on when they would be ready. I am very busy today, but I will try to get to these. No doubt I will have them ready during the week.
Jovialis: Thanks for being willing to run the coordinates from the various calculators for those Daunians. Looking forward to having something to potentially post about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis