Originally Posted by
Riverman
Its good you came up with this, because I too thought about this more than once, but was not able to come to a meaningful conclusion so far. Was E-V13 originally associated with other patrilineages, in some form of source group, just like R1a and R1b were together in the early steppe population and split up later, in founding in branching events. So were they not fundamentally different and departed from each other very early, but just shortly before expanding - especially E-V13 and J-L283. That's something which crossed my mind and I don't have an answer yet.
Its an particularly interesting question, because it all might lead back to the Corded decorated ceramic horizon, the earliest Western steppe expansion and the creation of the Epicorded cultural formations in Eastern Central Europe. One theory of mine was that E-V13 lived originally among people of Lengyel-Sopot and/or Tripolye-Cucuteni. Now TCC is particularly important because very influential for the PIE, for a long time a close ally and partner. And when the Western steppe groups finally crossed the line and first single individuals and small migrant groups, later whole tribes were coming into TCC, transforming it, while they themselves got transformed too, this was a sensitive time. Any kind of fusion and admixture that early could influence a whole steppe and Indoeuropean branch. The Carpathian zone in particular was extremely important, because through the whole Copper and Bronze Age, up to the early Iron Age, it was one if not the metallurgical centre of Europe and the most important source of valuable metal status symbols and weapons for the Western steppe people.
So I think its one scenario out of many, but one with a good chance of being correct, that early on, from TCC, some local clans made it into the expanding steppe networks, especially metallurgical experts, miners and smiths. And that's what they remained, up to the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and early Hallstatt. The question is whether E-V13 was accompanied by other surviving lineages in the same Pannonian-Carpathian-Western steppe environment. Obviously, J-L283 is one of these candidates and could have grown in a similar way within the post-steppe world of CEE.
But in some ways E-V13 seems to have taken its own paths, so even if that was the case, if there was a similar history and early connection, it didn't last for all clades and regions in any case.
The reason for the lack of samples is cremation, but not just, because they will appear largely with iron in most regions I guess. Before the Channelled/Fluted Ware horizon spread and with it iron, in most regions there was no E-V13. This combination of the Channelled/Fluted Ware horizon with early iron working, iron weapons, truly swept through Eastern Central Europe and the Balkans. You see it in the archaeological record, and if there would be no case for E-V13, I would search for another candidate. Because just like Corded Ware or Bell Beakers, this is a red flag archaeological impact scenario from my point of view. Its not that well known, I myself just read into much later than into other aspects of European archaeology, but its just one of these cases where you should ask: "Which change did it cause, which people and ethnicity spread it or was spread by it." Its just like Corded Ware or Bell Beakers, you follow its route, you have to expect an impact on patrilineages. And E-V13 just is it. Its not as total and complete as in the Eneolithic, obviously, its a different framework and context, they didn't really break through everywhere, in some regions they just formed local nests and trickled in, but you see this event, this massive spread of new ways and technology, from the Carpathians down to the Aegean.
I still wonder about the relationship of Illyrian and Daco-Thracian, which is a very complicated issue, ranging from not related at all, other than being IE, to dialects of the same ethnolinguistic branch. Its certainly possible that Illyrian was an earlier branching event from the same source, Daco-Thracian the next, Baltoslavic followed, imho.
For the linguistic experts: What exactly was the difference and relationship of the Pannonian and Balkan Illyrian languages? Anything known or not enough material to come to meaningful conclusions. Because in my scheme the Pannonian groups should be more Urnfield/E-V13 influenced.
