The genetic origin of Daunians

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08-12-21, 20:15
Bekas

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihype02

Dienekes claimed that E-V13 in Mediterranean is essentially of Greek origin. And that E-V13 and J2 (not just J2a) in Albanians are also of Ancient Greek origin. That Turks are to a large part Ancient Greeks. That is very ironic coming from a Pontic Greek who barely has Ancient Greek ancestry himself. He should know better as a Pontic Greek. This for starters completely knocks him out for me. It's done for me.

Sorry to interrupt your discussion, I will write this and go.

1) Dienekes is Lazaridis.

2) Pontic Greeks can be modelled as having quantifiable Mycenean ancestry as you can see in the following qpAdm run, probably not as much as Peloponnesian Greeks or others, but still significantly present:

Quote:

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1748471664
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
ponticgreek
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 11 chisq: 8.256 tail: 0.690196169 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -8.256 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.186
China_Tianyuan 0.121
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.274
Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.384
Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.625
Turkey_N_published -1.707
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.057
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.586
Papuan.DG -0.202
Israel_Natufian_published -1.309
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.309
ONG.SG -0.187
A:
scale 1038.803
Greece_BA_Mycenaean -1.140
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.837

full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 8.256 taildiff: 0.690196169
B:
scale 699.482 1187.508
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.573 0.520
China_Tianyuan 0.669 1.352
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.352 -0.093
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.810 1.670
Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.170 1.708
Turkey_N_published 1.339 -1.530
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.569 1.102
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.703 0.716
Papuan.DG 0.433 0.210
Israel_Natufian_published 1.919 0.259
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.374 -0.080
ONG.SG 0.216 -0.038
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.000 1.414

best coefficients: 0.423 0.577
totmean: 0.423 0.577
boot mean: 0.423 0.577
std. errors: 0.074 0.074

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
5485 -5485
-5485 5485

summ: ponticgreek 2 0.690196 0.423 0.577 5485 -5485 5485

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 11 8.256 0.690196 0.423 0.577
01 1 12 64.491 3.38531e-09 1.000 0.000
10 1 12 41.455 4.11161e-05 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.690196 - -
best pat: 10 4.11161e-05 chi(nested): 33.199 p-value for nested model: 8.31902e-09

coeffs: 0.423 0.577

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000819 1.293291
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000438 0.736654
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000599 Z: 1.046005

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000957 1.295930
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya China_Tianyuan 0.001138 1.644382
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.001061 Z: 1.577864

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000504 0.945933
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000078 -0.149355
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000168 Z: 0.339867

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.001158 -2.212288
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.001406 2.733275
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000321 Z: 0.654114

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001673 -2.444339
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.001438 2.156090
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: 0.000121 Z: 0.192713

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001915 3.752897
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Turkey_N_published -0.001289 -2.630766
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.000067 Z: 0.144465

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000814 1.065108
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000928 1.258500
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000879 Z: 1.243516

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002434 -3.152052
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000603 0.776853
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.000683 Z: -0.932843

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000619 1.161909
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Papuan.DG 0.000177 0.333508
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000364 Z: 0.728246

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.002744 2.426661
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Israel_Natufian_published 0.000218 0.210682
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.001288 Z: 1.265452

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000534 0.869551
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000067 -0.120423
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000187 Z: 0.340491

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000308 0.572255
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya ONG.SG -0.000032 -0.061478
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000112 Z: 0.223804

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.046
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 1.578
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.340
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.654
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.193
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 0.144
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.244
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.933
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 0.728
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 1.265
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.340
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.224
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 0.658
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.594
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.476
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.655
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -0.928
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.364
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.625
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.384
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.655
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.651
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.865
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -1.140
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.113
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.194
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published -1.561
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.227
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.057
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -1.088
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 0.209
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.351
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -1.535
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.235
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.064
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -0.165
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.894
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.012
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.297
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.011
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.028
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.088
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.338
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published -0.536
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.823
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.433
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 0.083
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.960
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.241
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.398
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published -0.088
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.921
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.052
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 0.355
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.058
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.095
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -0.014
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.193
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.062
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG 0.587
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 1.238
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.223
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG 0.089
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.776
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.762
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.360
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.983
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -1.117
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 1.431
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.722
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.149
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 1.123
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.886
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.353
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.533
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.080
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -1.155
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -0.157

##end of qpAdm: 1.892 seconds cpu 0.725 Mbytes in use

42.3% Mycenean (+- 7.4%) and 57.7% Maikop_Novosvobodnaya (+- 7.4%).
08-12-21, 20:32
ihype02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bekas

Sorry to interrupt your discussion, I will write this and go.

1) Dienekes is Lazaridis.

2) Pontic Greeks can be modelled as having quantifiable Mycenean ancestry as you can see in the following qpAdm run, probably not as much as Peloponnesian Greeks or others, but still significantly present:

42.3% Mycenean (+- 7.4%) and 57.7% Maikop_Novosvobodnaya (+- 7.4%).

Dienekes is not Lazaridis. And you are using a 3000 BC old sample from Russia to model the native ancestry of Pontic Greeks.
You can model Modern Lazes and Armenians as 35% Greek with that.
Pontic Greeks can be modelled as 85% modern Laz and 15% Ionic-like.
08-12-21, 21:16
ihype02

Since Pax Augusta mentioned it is true that David only uses academic samples.
08-12-21, 21:22
Bekas

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihype02

Dienekes is not Lazaridis. (WTH?) And you are using a 3000 BC old sample from Russia to model the native ancestry of Pontic Greeks.
You can model Modern Lazes and Armenians as 35% Greek with that.
Pontic Greeks can be modelled as 85% modern Laz and 15% Ionic-like.

No, sorry, you can see Armenians fail the exact same run (see prob. tail), as qpAdm is very sensitive and is not like your blogger smartPCA "eurogenes calculator" where you mish-mash whatever you want and you get a little bit of everything as a result.

Laz speakers also have ancestry from Maikop, and have mixed with Greeks, as it can be seen with loans from the Greek language in their own language's grammatical structure, but your numbers have no basis on anything, you just pull them out from thin air.

Quote:

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS ##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1852968968
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
Armenian.DG
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 11 chisq: 71.233 tail: 7.11630577e-11 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -71.233 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.155
China_Tianyuan 0.136
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.333
Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.279
Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.621
Turkey_N_published 1.689
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.065
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.480
Papuan.DG 0.186
Israel_Natufian_published 1.541
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.299
ONG.SG 0.187
A:
scale 928.687
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.296
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.567

full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 71.233 taildiff: 7.11630577e-11
B:
scale 599.618 885.424
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.134 -0.208
China_Tianyuan 0.521 0.690
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.260 -0.087
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.301 1.826
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.821 1.557
Turkey_N_published 2.077 0.238
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.411 0.649
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.558 1.932
Papuan.DG 0.145 -0.306
Israel_Natufian_published 2.420 1.102
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.451 0.008
ONG.SG -0.020 -0.441
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.000 1.414

best coefficients: 0.304 0.696
totmean: 0.304 0.696
boot mean: 0.303 0.697
std. errors: 0.062 0.062

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
3887 -3887
-3887 3887

summ: Armenian.DG 2 0.000000 0.303 0.697 3887 -3887 3887

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 11 71.233 7.11631e-11 0.304 0.696
01 1 12 220.782 0 1.000 0.000
10 1 12 105.314 5.03423e-17 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 7.11631e-11 - -
best pat: 10 5.03423e-17 chi(nested): 34.080 p-value for nested model: 5.28806e-09

coeffs: 0.304 0.696

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000224 0.506334
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000235 -0.573040
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: -0.000095 Z: -0.258881

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000869 1.809266
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya China_Tianyuan 0.000780 1.891160
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000807 Z: 2.153321

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000434 1.266355
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000098 -0.313555
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000064 Z: 0.233394

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000502 -1.411854
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.002063 6.318214
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.001282 Z: 4.338469

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001369 -2.928761
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.001758 3.867247
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: 0.000807 Z: 2.026901

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.003464 9.738560
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Turkey_N_published 0.000268 0.837026
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.001241 Z: 4.319962

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000686 1.346397
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000733 1.551759
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000719 Z: 1.692131

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000931 -1.844101
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.002182 4.522860
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: 0.001235 Z: 2.908198

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000241 0.632554
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Papuan.DG -0.000346 -1.045093
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.000167 Z: -0.551150

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.004036 6.029144
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Israel_Natufian_published 0.001244 2.284058
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.002094 Z: 4.389409

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000752 1.862131
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000010 0.026313
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000235 Z: 0.716612

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG -0.000034 -0.092594
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya ONG.SG -0.000498 -1.455873
dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.000357 Z: -1.173774

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.259
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 2.153
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.233
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 4.338
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 2.027
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 4.320
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.692
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.908
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -0.551
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 4.389
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.717
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -1.174
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 2.150
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.360
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 3.882
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 2.062
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published 3.854
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.847
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.855
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.204
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 4.237
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.879
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.727
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -1.658
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.250
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published 1.157
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.189
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.871
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -2.686
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 2.431
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.524
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -3.078
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 3.136
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.600
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published 3.197
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.328
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.356
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -0.583
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 3.800
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.423
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -1.062
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.310
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published -0.152
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.461
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.120
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -4.702
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 1.691
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -3.310
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -5.453
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 1.134
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.183
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.970
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG -2.337
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 2.374
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.383
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -2.897
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.290
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.014
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -4.577
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 1.960
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -3.078
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -5.154
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.063
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -2.160
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 2.622
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.123
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -2.694
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -3.331
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.561
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -2.319
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -3.687
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 4.752
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.320
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.633
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -3.753
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -5.202
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -1.947

##end of qpAdm: 1.786 seconds cpu 0.782 Mbytes in use
08-12-21, 21:41
ihype02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bekas

No, sorry, you can see Armenians fail the exact same run (see prob. tail), as qpAdm is very sensitive and is not like your blogger smartPCA "eurogenes calculator" where you mish-mash whatever you want and you get a little bit of everything as a result.

Laz speakers also have ancestry from Maikop, and have mixed with Greeks, as it can be seen with loans from the Greek language in their own language's grammatical structure, but your numbers have no basis on anything, you just pull them out from thin air.

You are using a sample that pre-dates the Pyramid of Giza by 500 to 700 yeas and it's even from a different location. The Mycenaean genetic profile did not even exist in 3000BC. Pontic Greeks are very close to Laz with a Western pull.

Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek.
Wait until we find out how natives of Pontus were like in the Iron Age.

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 2.3295% / 0.02329537

62.8 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya

37.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Georgian_Laz
Distance: 2.0513% / 0.02051298

74.8 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya

25.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
08-12-21, 23:30
Bekas

I post qpAdm pass run, you post your ringleader's "coordinates" and closed project "calculator" results. IDC if you believe me or not, not my problem.

Maikop is perfectly fine to model native, non Steppe, Caucasus ancestry for that period and within range for Minoan and Mycenean sample age, same for Kura-Araxes that show similar ranges but I don't post this because you will pull some excuse for that sampling also. The bottom line is Pontic Greeks pass qpAdm runs with Mycenean reference samples, they also speak a very archaic version of Ionic Greek, and that seems to annoy Albanians and other Balkan people for some reason, but, like I said, not my problem.

You posted un-based claims, I corrected it for the other people to see.
08-12-21, 23:35
Dorian9

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihype02

You are using a sample that pre-dates the Pyramid of Giza by 500 to 700 yeas and it's even from a different location. The Mycenaean genetic profile did not even exist in 3000BC. Pontic Greeks are very close to Laz with a Western pull.

Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek.
Wait until we find out how natives of Pontus were like in the Iron Age.

Can you give a good reason on why one should compare Pontic Greeks with Laz?like from a linguistic or historical point of view?other than just repeating sikeliot or turkish anthroboarder type stuff? (I understood btw that we two had a discussion over the same subject them in another forum ) ,can you give an era by era synopsis of how these populations were created ..for sure?

Also how about suggesting the Bekas guy some better models for him to try If his doesn't cut it?

You've said in our previous discussion that you have no agenda but something seems to bother you about certain anthrofora Jewish members(as I remembered from the discussion in the other forum) Dienekes and their theories..
08-12-21, 23:49
ihype02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bekas

I post qpAdm pass run, you post your ringleader's "coordinates" and closed project "calculator" results. IDC if you believe me or not, not my problem.

Maikop is perfectly fine to model native, non Steppe, Caucasus ancestry for that period and within range for Minoan and Mycenean sample age, same for Kura-Araxes that show similar ranges but I don't post this because you will pull some excuse for that sampling also. The bottom line is Pontic Greeks pass qpAdm runs with Mycenean reference samples, they also speak a very archaic version of Ionic Greek, and that seems to annoy Albanians and other Balkan people for some reason, but, like I said, not my problem.

You posted un-based claims, I corrected it for the other people to see.

The point is that the source that you are using is highly unlikely to be fully representative of natives in Pontus because of the date 3000BC-3200BC and the location. The inhabitants of Serbia were French-like during those times if I remember well.

I think you are tricking yourself. The sample you used is not 100% impossible to be exactly the same as the natives of Pontus but it's highly unlikely.
Wait until something by 800BC is released to see how they plot.

Also Romans settled colonists in Pontus too and Central Anatolians were more Western Shifted, Cypriot-like. Not the entire Western shift was caused by Ionians, but most of it yes.

I have tested G25 calculator with several different academic paper, including the Imperial Rome 2019 study. The percentages were the same with the studies, so I am satisfied with it.
09-12-21, 00:10
ihype02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DorianTA

Can you give a good reason on why one should compare Pontic Greeks with Laz?like from a linguistic or historical point of view?other than just repeating sikeliot or turkish anthroboarder type stuff? (I understood btw that we two had a discussion over the same subject them in another forum ) ,can you give an era by era synopsis of how these populations were created ..for sure?Also how about suggesting the Bekas guy some better models for him to try If his doesn't cut it?You've said in our previous discussion that you have no agenda but something seems to bother you about certain anthrofora Jewish members(as I remembered from the discussion in the other forum) Dienekes and their theories..

I only mentioned Dienekes because of comparison with Davidski I have only searched "Albanians" once in his blog and found out about this. He is inactive I could care less about him. He gets tolerated for his biases but Davidski gets not. I have no problems with Jewish people.

I am sure most of what I have said will be proven. Wanna bet on that?
09-12-21, 00:37
Dorian9

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihype02

I am sure most of what I have said will be proven. Wanna bet on that?

If your bet is that Pontic Greeks are a straight 85% post-Roman(?) era "Lazes" + 15% Mycenaean-like Pontic Ionian "survivors" ,I'm in for a bet since I believe the picture must be more complicated.

I have no opinion on the haplogroups origins ,I just mentioned Dienekes just to show that you have your own biases.. I wouldn't be surprised if he is right to some unknown extent though since there are gaps about Albanian ethnogenesis.
09-12-21, 00:39
Bekas

Ah, ok, thanks for clarifying, eurogenes says Pontics are Laz and Armenians, so it must be true,

you should inform the Cambridge seat of Linguistics, also, so they don't waste their time using the Pontic dialects spoken today in Greece and Turkey to reconstruct Homeric Greek and their Hellenistic Alexandrian evolutions. Just tell them eurogenes told you Pontics are hodge-podge of Lazic tribesmen, G25 is definitely the proof.

https://youtu.be/JG2bVzg7BuA

Also, here's a qpAdm pass run that uses modern Georgian for a proxy of the native Caucasus reference. You can see the spread is similar (36.4% Mycenean and the rest Georgian) with a slightly higher standard error (+-1% to the Maikop run).

Quote:

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1842531111
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
ponticgreek
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Georgian.DG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 14 chisq: 16.368 tail: 0.29142047 dofdiff: 16 chisqdiff: -16.368 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.205
China_Tianyuan 0.393
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.220
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.404
Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.224
Turkey_N_published 1.854
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.270
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.109
Papuan.DG 0.167
Israel_Natufian_published 2.402
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.180
ONG.SG 0.046
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.035
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.478
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.583
A:
scale 1022.823
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.227
Georgian.DG -0.703

full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 14 chisqdiff: 16.368 taildiff: 0.29142047
B:
scale 690.828 1253.964
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.669 0.771
China_Tianyuan 0.711 0.277
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.387 0.294
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.721 -0.510
Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.122 0.938
Turkey_N_published 1.255 -2.192
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.636 0.485
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.701 -0.511
Papuan.DG 0.552 0.558
Israel_Natufian_published 1.949 -2.126
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.468 0.369
ONG.SG 0.272 0.358
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.140 -0.385
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.147 -1.451
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.231 0.671
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Georgian.DG 0.000 1.414

best coefficients: 0.364 0.636
totmean: 0.364 0.636
boot mean: 0.364 0.636
std. errors: 0.084 0.084

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
7128 -7128
-7128 7128

summ: ponticgreek 2 0.291420 0.364 0.636 7128 -7128 7128

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 14 16.368 0.29142 0.364 0.636
01 1 15 68.453 8.41149e-09 1.000 0.000
10 1 15 36.297 0.00160138 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.29142 - -
best pat: 10 0.00160138 chi(nested): 19.929 p-value for nested model: 8.03689e-06

coeffs: 0.364 0.636

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000968 1.500599
details: Georgian.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000615 1.037938
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000744 Z: 1.291133

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.001029 1.388763
details: Georgian.DG China_Tianyuan 0.000221 0.323451
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000515 Z: 0.775092

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000560 1.028332
details: Georgian.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000234 0.458293
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000353 Z: 0.713968

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.001044 -1.959258
details: Georgian.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000407 -0.803248
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: -0.000639 Z: -1.306387

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001624 -2.345083
details: Georgian.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000748 1.098959
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000115 Z: -0.178684

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001816 3.505022
details: Georgian.DG Turkey_N_published -0.001748 -3.634914
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: -0.000451 Z: -0.973117

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000921 1.190378
details: Georgian.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000387 0.528206
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000581 Z: 0.823044

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002463 -3.148780
details: Georgian.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000408 -0.547423
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.001156 Z: -1.610472

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000799 1.483914
details: Georgian.DG Papuan.DG 0.000445 0.892347
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000574 Z: 1.195057

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.002822 2.430457
details: Georgian.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.001695 -1.615367
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: -0.000051 Z: -0.048641

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000677 1.083105
details: Georgian.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000294 0.514300
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000434 Z: 0.780294

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000394 0.718878
details: Georgian.DG ONG.SG 0.000285 0.537356
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000325 Z: 0.641246

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.000202 -0.303448
details: Georgian.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.000307 -0.505379
dscore: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya f4: -0.000269 Z: -0.449641

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.001660 2.894377
details: Georgian.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.001157 -2.137240
dscore: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi f4: -0.000132 Z: -0.251263

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.001781 1.718469
details: Georgian.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000535 0.547037
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.000989 Z: 1.036162

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.291
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 0.775
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.714
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.306
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.179
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published -0.973
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.823
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.610
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 1.195
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.049
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.780
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.641
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.450
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.251
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.036
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.320
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.539
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -2.330
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.148
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -2.024
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.206
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.432
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.273
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.733
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.471
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.715
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.472
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.358
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.245
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.218
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.761
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.808
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published -1.523
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.084
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.973
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.093
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published -0.515
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.125
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -0.306
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.047
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.953
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.458
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.566
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.643
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -1.323
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.295
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.798
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.346
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.360
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.122
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.044
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.855
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.730
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.637
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.876
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.398
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.809
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.752
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 2.406
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.572
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.892
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG 1.824
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.635
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.982
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.704
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published -0.541
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.851
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.351
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 1.020
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.057
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.793
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 0.650
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.216
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.026
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.124
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.524
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.011
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG 1.982
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.397
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.572
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG 1.497
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.330
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.734
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.608
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.939
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.011
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.550
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.207
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.373
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.104
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.016
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.402
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 2.398
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.946
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 2.064
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 2.103
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 1.120
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.399
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.977
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.587
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.270
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.529
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.325
gendstat: Papuan.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.294
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.420
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.461
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG 0.360
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.199
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.077
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.787
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -0.221
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.041
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.985
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.552
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.940
gendstat: ONG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.827
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.669
gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.236
gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.293
gendstat: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.232

##end of qpAdm: 2.474 seconds cpu 0.877 Mbytes in use

So, I am sorry it hurts your feelings but Pontic Greeks have quantifiable ancestry related to the Mycenean samples.
09-12-21, 00:53
ihype02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DorianTA

If your bet is that Pontic Greeks are a straight 85% post-Roman(?) era "Lazes" + 15% Mycenaean-like Pontic Ionian "survivors" ,I'm in for a bet since I believe the picture must be more complicated.

I have no opinion on the haplogroups origins ,I just mentioned Dienekes just to show that you have your own biases.. I wouldn't be surprised if he is right to some unknown extent though since there are gaps about Albanian ethnogenesis.

No where did I mention that Pontic Greeks are straight up 15% Ionian and 85% Laz. But do I think it is closer to 15% than to 43%? Yes.
I was simply correcting the method that your buddy used. I have never seen anyone here or on Anthrogenica use qpAdm.
He must've tried several methods and picked which ever he liked best.
09-12-21, 01:18
Carnimirie

Is there going to be a comprehensive study on Sicily/Calabria any time soon? Not sure how anyone can draw conclusions on Southern Italian genetics without these two regions.
09-12-21, 01:41
Pax Augusta

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnimirie

Is there going to be a comprehensive study on Sicily/Calabria any time soon? Not sure how anyone can draw conclusions on Southern Italian genetics without these two regions.

At least 3-4 studies on ancient samples from Italy are about to be published. At least two include ancient samples from southern Italy, and one definitely includes samples from Sicily. Instead, unfortunately, to my knowledge there are no rumors yet about studies with ancient samples from Calabria.

Unraveling the genetic history of Italians: a genome-wide study of Iron Age Italic populations

Zaro Valentina (1), Vergata Chiara (1), Cannariato Costanza (1), Modi Alessandra (1), Vai Stefania (1), Pilli Elena (1), Diroma Maria Angela (1), Caramelli David (1), Lari Martina (1)
1 - Department of Biology, University of Florence, Florence, Italy (Italy)

The high genetic variability of present-day Italians reflects a complex scenario of past population dynamics dating back not only to Late Paleolithic and Neolithic but also Metal Ages. Although many archaeogenetic studies have been recently carried out to investigate the peopling of Europe, only few genomic data have been reported from Italic populations so far, especially the ones belonging to the last phase of Metal Ages: the Iron Age. To outline a picture of Iron Age genetic variability within the Italian context and infer potential gene flow patterns, we collected 78 human remains from 8 Iron Age necropolises covering 5 different regions of Italy (Emilia-Romagna, Umbria, Marche, Latium and Sicily). Double stranded half-UDG libraries were produced and then shotgun sequenced on an Illumina NovaSeq6000 platform to allow for an initial screening of the samples. Raw reads were processed using the EAGER pipeline and then assessment of DNA authenticity and sex determination were performed. Preliminary population genetics tests were run on genotyped data by building a west Eurasian PCA including all the samples with at least 10.000 SNPs covered on the Affymetrix Human Origins panel. The first results highlight an affinity of the majority of the samples with previously reported Iron Age individuals from Italy, while all samples from Sicily overlap with the genetic variability observed in this area during the Bronze Age. Our aim is to deeper investigate these samples which can significantly contribute to better understand past peopling dynamics of the Italian peninsula and reconstruct modern Italians' genetic history.
09-12-21, 02:47
Dorian9

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihype02

No where did I mention that Pontic Greeks are straight up 15% Ionian and 85% Laz. But do I think it is closer to 15% than to 43%? Yes.
I was simply correcting the method that your buddy used. I have never seen anyone here or on Anthrogenica use qpAdm.
He must've tried several methods and picked which ever he liked best.

You said "Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek." If that's not what you say ,I don't get why Laz should be used as a proxy? I believe even Georgian pops might not be good proxy because of possible more eastern admixture ,be it through the Greek Caucasus colonies or Roman ones ,hence the need for ancient models for Pontians.

Can you provide a good reason why the less Greek the model is the more realistic it must be?If not ,I take it as you following the herd. I'm willing to bet that not only the Ionic part is close to half but the continuity of Trapezudians with their Sinopian ancestors (the colonizers of Trapezuda) ,and Milesians(colonizers of Sinope) is even greater due to gradual accumulation of local admixtures and that the similarity with Laz is coincidental due to the latter having Greek or Roman admixture and due to them starting as Colchians who assimilated more westward black sea tribes that the Greek population also could have assimilated (see Sanni)..but that's just me ,remains to be seen (If it ever does and we're not wasting our times).
09-12-21, 03:00
ihype02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DorianTA

You said "Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek." If that's not what you say ,I don't get why Laz should be used as a proxy? I believe even Georgian pops might not be good proxy because of possible more eastern admixture ,be it through the Greek Caucasus colonies or Roman ones ,hence the need for ancient models for Pontians.

Can you provide a good reason why the less Greek the model is the more realistic it must be?If not ,I take it as you following the herd. I'm willing to bet that not only the Ionic part is close to half but the continuity of Trapezudians with their Sinopian ancestors (the colonizers of Trapezuda) ,and Milesians(colonizers of Sinope) is even greater due to gradual accumulation of local admixtures and that the similarity with Laz is coincidental due to the latter having Greek or Roman admixture and due to them starting as Colchians who assimilated more westward black sea tribes that the Greek population also could have assimilated (see Sanni)..but that's just me ,remains to be seen (If it ever does and we're not wasting our times).

Treizbond was a Laz kingdom. The natives were Laz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Trebizond

Keep in mind that in general Anatolia has become more Eastern shifted not just because of Turkic impact that is including Christians. So maybe the natives of Pontus could've been more western shifted than modern Pontic Greeks that is not to say that modern Pontians have absolutely no Ancient Greek ancestry (I am sure they do). But PCA can get interpreted in many different ways, what pulls them west and what pulls them east.

Southern Italians are closer to Ancient Greeks than Cretans but that does not mean they have more Ancient Greek ancestry than Cretans.
09-12-21, 03:04
Carnimirie

Thanks for the info Pax. Surprised Calabria is overlooked, I feel the Oenotrians and/or the populous Greek colonies would solve the puzzle
09-12-21, 03:57
Dorian9

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihype02

Treizbond was a Laz kingdom. The natives were Laz.

Keep in mind that in general Anatolia has become more Eastern shifted not just because of Turkic impact that is including Christians. So maybe the natives of Pontus could've been more western shifted than modern Pontic Greeks that is not to say that modern Pontians have absolutely no Ancient Greek ancestry (I am sure they do). But PCA can get interpreted in many different ways, what pulls them west and what pulls them east.

Southern Italians are closer to Ancient Greeks than Cretans but that does not mean they have more Ancient Greek ancestry than Cretans.

The geographical boundaries of Lazika, according to historians, are the river Fassis to the northeast, but there is disagreement about its western boundaries, since Xenophon extends them to Trabzon and Arrianos to Ofi.
The racial difference is a given, since the Pontians are settlers from Ionia and in fact come from Miletus which, according to the testimonies of Herodotus, Xenophon and Strabo, colonized the shores of the Black Sea, while the Laz, according to one version, attract their origin from Asia and coming from there settled in Lazika. Xenophon also refers to the Laz, emphasizing that during the descent of his myriads he was unprovokedly attacked by them, while the Greeks of Trebizond "of this most Greek city" warmly welcomed him. Throughout their history, the Laz have been distinguished for their predatory character.
The confusion between the Greeks of the historical Pontus and the Lazes can be determined chronologically starting from the Byzantine years. Specifically, we have a reference to the name Laziki in 380 AD when Theodosius the Great awarded for the first time the title of "Lord of Colchis and Lazika", while Procopius writes that in the years of Justinian "Lazes at first inhabited Colchis". It is obvious that at that time the Lazes lived east of today's Lazika, and only during the Ottoman period did they enter Rizounta, bled and de-Hellenized the 105 villages of the Greek region and spread eastwards of Ofes.
The Laz converted to Christianity in the 6th century, during the reign of Emperor Justinian, when their king Tzathios went to Constantinople. From that moment on, their conscious or unconscious identification with the Pontians began, after special importance was attached at the ecclesiastical level to their religious identification with the Greeks and at the level of defense in their ability to be a barrier to the Persian expansionist tendencies towards Trebizond. The result of this confusion is the reference of the Byzantine chroniclers, after giving in 1204 the nickname "lords of the Lazes" to the Komnenians of Trabzon with , a fact that certifies their ignorance.

The first bishops of Lazika are mentioned from 680 AD and participated in the Sixth Ecumenical Council. Until the 13th century Lazika was a separate Diocese, but after the founding of the empire of Trebizond it passed to the Archbishop of Trebizond who retains the title of "Priced and Exarchist of all Lazika". In recent years the name of the Laz includes the tribes that live west of Colchis in the river Ofi, with the result that the Ottoman Empire identifies the administration of Riza as the Administration of Laz.

With the overthrow of the Greek Empire and the rule of the Ottomans, Sultan Mehmet IV imposed violent Islamization during the period when Mehmet and Ahmet Kioproulou were the Grand Viziers, with most of the Laz converting to Islam hence now they are being differentiated by religion also.
Until the Russo-Ottoman War of 1878, Lazistan was an autonomous administration based in Batumi. In 1878, after the occupation of Batumi by the Russians, the capital of Lazistan was moved to Rizuda.

After the Kemalist coup, Lazistan became a prefecture and the use of its name was banned by the Turkish authorities, because it was considered that this gave rise to the recognition of ethnic groups such as the Laz outside the borders of Turkish territory.

The younger researchers, namely D. I Economides, in his book The Pontus and the Laws of Hellenism in It, compare the language of the Laz with that of the Georgians and discover related elements by including it in the Iberian language family.

However, the research shows in an absolute way that there is no relationship between the Laz and the Pontians, since they have their own language, their own customs and traditions. Moreover, throughout their historical course, they defended their ethno-local identity, persecuting Hellenism in the logic of multifaceted competition. In fact, at the end of the 20th century, they were the most terrible pirates of the eastern part of the Black Sea.

It is therefore necessary today to stop the identification of the Pontians with the Laz. In fact, the reasons for the often repeated use of the homogenization of the two diametrically opposed ethnicities are sought by Pontian scholars with insidious actions. According to the assessments of some representatives of refugee associations, which, as far as I know, have not been scientifically researched, the identification was invented by Bulgarian historians in order to devalue the settlement of the Pontians in Macedonia. According to a second version, the identification aims at the discrediting of the Pontians themselves, since it is perpetuated by non-historians, who give the Pontian tribe the resin of the uncivilized.
09-12-21, 05:50
Palermo Trapani

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

At least 3-4 studies on ancient samples from Italy are about to be published. At least two include ancient samples from southern Italy, and one definitely includes samples from Sicily. Instead, unfortunately, to my knowledge there are no rumors yet about studies with ancient samples from Calabria.

Unraveling the genetic history of Italians: a genome-wide study of Iron Age Italic populations

Zaro Valentina (1), Vergata Chiara (1), Cannariato Costanza (1), Modi Alessandra (1), Vai Stefania (1), Pilli Elena (1), Diroma Maria Angela (1), Caramelli David (1), Lari Martina (1)
1 - Department of Biology, University of Florence, Florence, Italy (Italy)

The high genetic variability of present-day Italians reflects a complex scenario of past population dynamics dating back not only to Late Paleolithic and Neolithic but also Metal Ages. Although many archaeogenetic studies have been recently carried out to investigate the peopling of Europe, only few genomic data have been reported from Italic populations so far, especially the ones belonging to the last phase of Metal Ages: the Iron Age. To outline a picture of Iron Age genetic variability within the Italian context and infer potential gene flow patterns, we collected 78 human remains from 8 Iron Age necropolises covering 5 different regions of Italy (Emilia-Romagna, Umbria, Marche, Latium and Sicily). Double stranded half-UDG libraries were produced and then shotgun sequenced on an Illumina NovaSeq6000 platform to allow for an initial screening of the samples. Raw reads were processed using the EAGER pipeline and then assessment of DNA authenticity and sex determination were performed. Preliminary population genetics tests were run on genotyped data by building a west Eurasian PCA including all the samples with at least 10.000 SNPs covered on the Affymetrix Human Origins panel. The first results highlight an affinity of the majority of the samples with previously reported Iron Age individuals from Italy, while all samples from Sicily overlap with the genetic variability observed in this area during the Bronze Age. Our aim is to deeper investigate these samples which can significantly contribute to better understand past peopling dynamics of the Italian peninsula and reconstruct modern Italians' genetic history.

Pax Augusta: Fascinating study by Valentina et al from the University of Florence. While all of the studies findings are of interest to me, the one I find most interesting are the ones that indicate Iron Age Sicilian samples (800BC to 400BC) overlap the genetic variability found during Bronze Age Sicily. I assume they are referring to the Bronze Age samples from Sicily in Fernandes et al 2020 and also the Sicilian Bell Beaker from Olade et al 2018 (I4930), although I guess one could be dogmatic and say the Sicilian Bell Beaker culture was more Copper age.
09-12-21, 10:36
Archetype0ne

Some members seem to be stuck on the pre 2010 stereotype of proto-/Albanians as irrelevant bystanders in the genetics of the region.

I have no idea if Dienekes is Lazaridis, since from the research I did there is circumstantial evidence. But if he is, Lazaridis seems very impartial once confronted by evidence. His Minoan and Mycenean study is living proof. As for Dienekes I was trying to figure out what he claimed about Albanians since you guys mentioned it 3-4 times, as if he dissed or something, but I saw nothing of the kind on his blog.

Davidski might be stubborn, but at least you know once he deletes one of the blogs, he accepted the fact that his hypothesis got rejected. As was the case with L283 coming via sea route from the Caucasus. On the other hand I have no idea why you guys hate him so much? Is this some long feud you have been having or what? If anything I find it amusing how he challenges the crown jewels of genetics. Certainly not advisable I would say. But amusing nonetheless.

But yeah someone with info, Angela? Bekas? What did Dienekes say that would make Albanians not like him?
Since you are solely arguing with ihype2, try not to project all Albanians into the positions he is holding.
09-12-21, 11:25
ihype02

^^ The discussion about Dienekes was over you are a little bit late to the party.
09-12-21, 14:41
Hawk

I think Dienekes was a great blogger with excellent knowledge on history, archaeology, genetics. He might be Lazaridis, who knows, i have no clue.

But, that he was biased toward Albanians he was. You can get the vibe when he was writing about Albanians. Like for E-V13, when he was saying that all E-V13 in Albanians is due to Late Middle Age boom of specific sub-clade. Well, he was saying a true + lie mix. That specific sub-clade which he was refusing to specify was Berisha-Sopi sub-clade, and it's true it had a boom after XII century but it doesn't even remotely contain the vast majority of Albanian E-V13.

This of course doesn't change the fact that the guy was a pleasure to read on various topics. Beside that, maybe his antagonism toward Albanians made him believe so, it was more than 10 years what he stated, and we all do a lot of errors/assumptions. What's more important is to acknowledge the mistakes.
09-12-21, 16:31
ihype02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnimirie

Thanks for the info Pax. Surprised Calabria is overlooked, I feel the Oenotrians and/or the populous Greek colonies would solve the puzzle

The Iron Age Campanian study has over 100 Ancient Samples. If there is a male bias in those samples we will see a massive amount of Y-Dna from Native Southern Italians.
09-12-21, 16:35
kingjohn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

At least 3-4 studies on ancient samples from Italy are about to be published. At least two include ancient samples from southern Italy, and one definitely includes samples from Sicily. Instead, unfortunately, to my knowledge there are no rumors yet about studies with ancient samples from Calabria.

Unraveling the genetic history of Italians: a genome-wide study of Iron Age Italic populations

Zaro Valentina (1), Vergata Chiara (1), Cannariato Costanza (1), Modi Alessandra (1), Vai Stefania (1), Pilli Elena (1), Diroma Maria Angela (1), Caramelli David (1), Lari Martina (1)
1 - Department of Biology, University of Florence, Florence, Italy (Italy)

The high genetic variability of present-day Italians reflects a complex scenario of past population dynamics dating back not only to Late Paleolithic and Neolithic but also Metal Ages. Although many archaeogenetic studies have been recently carried out to investigate the peopling of Europe, only few genomic data have been reported from Italic populations so far, especially the ones belonging to the last phase of Metal Ages: the Iron Age. To outline a picture of Iron Age genetic variability within the Italian context and infer potential gene flow patterns, we collected 78 human remains from 8 Iron Age necropolises covering 5 different regions of Italy (Emilia-Romagna, Umbria, Marche, Latium and Sicily). Double stranded half-UDG libraries were produced and then shotgun sequenced on an Illumina NovaSeq6000 platform to allow for an initial screening of the samples. Raw reads were processed using the EAGER pipeline and then assessment of DNA authenticity and sex determination were performed. Preliminary population genetics tests were run on genotyped data by building a west Eurasian PCA including all the samples with at least 10.000 SNPs covered on the Affymetrix Human Origins panel. The first results highlight an affinity of the majority of the samples with previously reported Iron Age individuals from Italy, while all samples from Sicily overlap with the genetic variability observed in this area during the Bronze Age. Our aim is to deeper investigate these samples which can significantly contribute to better understand past peopling dynamics of the Italian peninsula and reconstruct modern Italians' genetic history.

thanks:great:
that should be interesting;-)
09-12-21, 18:07
Ralphie Boy

At least in terms of Italy and the Balkans, Cavalli-Sforza appears to have been right, that by the Middle Ages, indigenous populations were too large to be completely replaced by “barbarian” invasions like Slavs and Germanics. The Roman Balkans study gives evidence of this. Pretty much every academic study shows the south Balkans to be the least “Slavic-like,” based on our current knowledge.

Whether Dienekes (Pontian) is Lazaridis (Pontian) doesn’t matter that much to me, so long as there’s not a big ethical breach or misrepresentation. It seems that Dienekes stopped posting more or less around the time Lazaridis became big in population genetics. Lazaridis does great work and is a pioneer in ancient Greek genetics. Look forward to his next papers.
09-12-21, 18:58
Carnimirie

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihype02

The Iron Age Campanian study has over 100 Ancient Samples. If there is a male bias in those samples we will see a massive amount of Y-Dna from Native Southern Italians.

Unless there's samples from the Cilento area from south Campania I feel they are just going to turn out the usual Latin-like and not what might be a Native Southern Italian, Bay of Naples is a few steps away from Rome after all. Hence why I don't understand this tiptoeing in the immediate areas around Latinum instead of going for Salento/Calabria/Sicily if a paper on South Italian genetics is to be made.
09-12-21, 19:14
torzio

scholars should see if any link the

https://www.earth-prints.org/bitstre...0al%202021.pdf

with the Croatia paper

and the Daunian paper
09-12-21, 20:15
ihype02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnimirie

Unless there's samples from the Cilento area from south Campania I feel they are just going to turn out the usual Latin-like and not what might be a Native Southern Italian, Bay of Naples is a few steps away from Rome after all. Hence why I don't understand this tiptoeing in the immediate areas around Latinum instead of going for Salento/Calabria/Sicily if a paper on South Italian genetics is to be made.

https://i.imgur.com/zQlOIsQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/mQwkAlS.jpg
In the Daunian PCA it seems that ORD009 falls in into the Campanian cluster. But that PCA seem to be questionable.
Overall they seem like similar to Latins and Etruscans but they are pulled towards Central Italians, so not exactly the same.
10-12-21, 06:47
Salento

S vs SGRs … :thinking: San Giovanni Rotondo … + Padre Pio

SGR001
https://i.imgur.com/XuhW7Xq.jpg

SGR002
https://i.imgur.com/UpBlBRH.jpg

SGR003
https://i.imgur.com/T4tjbZL.jpg
10-12-21, 07:08
Salento

SAL vs SALs … :grin:

SAL001
https://i.imgur.com/pLt1OEq.jpg

SAL003
https://i.imgur.com/oaaJezP.jpg

SAL007
https://i.imgur.com/ePtHXdl.jpg

SAL010
https://i.imgur.com/sp5HFDs.jpg

SAL011
https://i.imgur.com/sjuFlPN.jpg
10-12-21, 07:28
Salento

S vs ORDs

ORD001
https://i.imgur.com/GOunSyN.jpg

ORD004
https://i.imgur.com/5F2YGK3.jpg

ORD006
https://i.imgur.com/SGb0n16.jpg

ORD009
https://i.imgur.com/VwLXSnI.jpg

ORD010
https://i.imgur.com/87p4ONE.jpg

ORD011
https://i.imgur.com/rbTwttS.jpg

ORD014
https://i.imgur.com/RAc4Z0d.jpg

ORD019
https://i.imgur.com/8SiIwg5.jpg
10-12-21, 08:06
Palermo Trapani

Salento: San Giovanni Rotondo and Padre Pio, you are I assume referring to the famous Capuchin Franciscan correct? So those samples are from his home town or he actually is from the same town as those ancient samples. Very interesting.

How are things going?
10-12-21, 08:41
Salento

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani

Salento: San Giovanni Rotondo and Padre Pio, you are I assume referring to the famous Capuchin Franciscan correct? So those samples are from his home town or he actually is from the same town as those ancient samples. Very interesting.

How are things going?

He’s from Pietralcina (Campania - Benevento), His convent is in San Giovanni Rotondo and he also founded a hospital there, … I’ve been there in the past on more than one occasion to visit sick relatives, … it’s one of the best hospitals around.

… I’m doing fine, Thanks, … hope you’re OK too :)
10-12-21, 11:01
Bekas

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihype02

He must've tried several methods and picked which ever he liked best.

Sour grapes, friend. Why would an Albanian poster be so sour about Pontic Greeks being related to ancient Greeks, what would be the repercussion for the West Balkans, anyways, Pontics are Ionics + Colchians by historical sources and they speak Ionic Greek, they have nothing to do with Albanians or the Balkans, they never mixed with them or fought against them or whatever, no one cares about Albania or Albanians in Pontic circles.

And here are some other pass runs, with Caucasus references, for you since you think I cherry pick, if you have any ideas you want to test further, I can try and accommodate you, write it here or send a PM. I apologize in advance, mods, for taking space in this thread.

Quote:

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1852179557
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
ponticgreek
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Armenian.DG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 13 chisq: 19.351 tail: 0.112628612 dofdiff: 15 chisqdiff: -19.351 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.152
China_Tianyuan 0.405
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.198
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.373
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.697
Turkey_N_published 1.932
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.301
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.465
Papuan.DG 0.118
Israel_Natufian_published 2.314
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.363
ONG.SG -0.035
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.677
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.893
A:
scale 1034.583
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.267
Armenian.DG -0.628

full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: 19.351 taildiff: 0.112628612
B:
scale 659.683 1298.492
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.583 0.861
China_Tianyuan 0.613 0.272
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.347 0.188
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.639 -0.591
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.918 -0.153
Turkey_N_published 1.297 -2.027
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.663 0.525
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.530 -1.892
Papuan.DG 0.440 0.708
Israel_Natufian_published 2.006 -1.287
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.361 -0.163
ONG.SG 0.212 0.592
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.232 -1.509
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.240 -0.001
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Armenian.DG 0.000 1.414

best coefficients: 0.332 0.668
totmean: 0.332 0.668
boot mean: 0.330 0.670
std. errors: 0.099 0.099

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
9781 -9781
-9781 9781

summ: ponticgreek 2 0.112629 0.330 0.670 9781 -9781 9781

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 13 19.351 0.112629 0.332 0.668
01 1 14 68.855 3.10871e-09 1.000 0.000
10 1 14 32.298 0.00363269 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.112629 - -
best pat: 10 0.00363269 chi(nested): 12.948 p-value for nested model: 0.000320318

coeffs: 0.332 0.668

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000884 1.384109
details: Armenian.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000663 1.092505
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000736 Z: 1.262826

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000929 1.263714
details: Armenian.DG China_Tianyuan 0.000209 0.304151
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000448 Z: 0.670400

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000525 0.980666
details: Armenian.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000145 0.288225
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000271 Z: 0.554900

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000969 -1.836263
details: Armenian.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000455 -0.890073
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: -0.000625 Z: -1.275780

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001392 -2.032289
details: Armenian.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000118 -0.182006
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000540 Z: -0.867427

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001966 3.845090
details: Armenian.DG Turkey_N_published -0.001561 -3.175836
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: -0.000391 Z: -0.832079

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.001005 1.308561
details: Armenian.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000404 0.558771
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000603 Z: 0.862824

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002319 -2.996201
details: Armenian.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.001457 -1.981802
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.001743 Z: -2.452335

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000667 1.243099
details: Armenian.DG Papuan.DG 0.000545 1.050728
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000585 Z: 1.185686

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.003042 2.661123
details: Armenian.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.000991 -0.964655
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.000346 Z: 0.338247

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000548 0.882014
details: Armenian.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000126 -0.222668
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000098 Z: 0.176826

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000321 0.591893
details: Armenian.DG ONG.SG 0.000456 0.883819
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000411 Z: 0.827085

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.001868 3.293926
details: Armenian.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.001162 -2.155761
dscore: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi f4: -0.000158 Z: -0.302528

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.001879 1.831375
details: Armenian.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.000001 -0.000896
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.000622 Z: 0.649883

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.263
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 0.670
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.555
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.276
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.867
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published -0.832
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.863
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.452
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 1.186
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.338
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.177
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.827
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.303
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.650
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.412
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.636
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -2.302
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.767
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -1.943
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.174
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -3.183
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.240
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.369
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.983
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.560
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.417
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.112
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.230
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.624
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.254
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published -1.342
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.193
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.608
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.217
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published -0.095
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.531
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -0.059
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.895
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.169
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.400
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.118
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -1.086
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.426
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.438
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.480
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.068
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.256
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG 0.219
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.638
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.346
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.146
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.491
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.791
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.651
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 2.297
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.966
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.281
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG 1.958
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.907
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.300
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 0.243
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.386
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.594
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 1.642
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.798
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.920
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 1.418
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.602
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.184
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.454
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.947
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG 1.912
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.740
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.873
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG 1.590
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.549
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.133
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.689
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.026
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.227
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.706
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.279
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.069
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.018
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 3.170
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.820
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 2.418
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 3.063
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 2.182
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 2.210
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.230
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.965
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.369
gendstat: Papuan.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.348
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.037
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.241
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG 0.065
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.488
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.209
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG 0.641
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.446
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.518
gendstat: ONG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.037
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.212
gendstat: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.852

##end of qpAdm: 2.287 seconds cpu 0.827 Mbytes in use

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1851216433
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
ponticgreek
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 13 chisq: 14.653 tail: 0.329489418 dofdiff: 15 chisqdiff: -14.653 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.661
China_Tianyuan 0.856
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.372
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.318
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.755
Turkey_N_published 1.369
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.697
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.889
Papuan.DG 0.619
Israel_Natufian_published 2.234
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.540
ONG.SG 0.441
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.132
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.315
A:
scale 756.248
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.293
Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG 0.572

full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: 14.653 taildiff: 0.329489418
B:
scale 659.683 1168.153
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.583 -0.187
China_Tianyuan 0.613 -0.533
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.347 0.139
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.639 -1.440
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.918 -1.027
Turkey_N_published 1.297 0.211
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.663 0.124
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.530 -2.901
Papuan.DG 0.440 -0.636
Israel_Natufian_published 2.006 0.469
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.361 -0.596
ONG.SG 0.212 -0.711
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.232 0.755
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.240 -0.033
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG 0.000 1.414

best coefficients: -0.793 1.793
totmean: -0.793 1.793
boot mean: -0.889 1.889
std. errors: 1.312 1.312

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
1721564 -1721564
-1721564 1721564

summ: ponticgreek 2 0.329489 -0.889 1.889 1721564 -1721564 1721564

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 13 14.653 0.329489 -0.793 1.793 infeasible
01 1 14 68.835 3.13516e-09 1.000 0.000
10 1 14 26.204 0.0243804 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.329489 - -
best pat: 10 0.0243804 chi(nested): 11.551 p-value for nested model: 0.000677124

coeffs: -0.793 1.793

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000884 1.384109
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000160 -0.258653
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: -0.000987 Z: -1.238219

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000929 1.263714
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000456 -0.632830
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.001554 Z: -1.686155

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000525 0.980666
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000119 0.226660
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: -0.000203 Z: -0.300067

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000969 -1.836263
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.001233 -2.323321
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: -0.001442 Z: -2.090971

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001392 -2.032289
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000880 -1.279017
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000473 Z: -0.519852

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001966 3.845090
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Turkey_N_published 0.000181 0.344879
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: -0.001234 Z: -1.775053

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.001005 1.308561
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000106 0.137055
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: -0.000606 Z: -0.591766

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002319 -2.996201
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002483 -3.212607
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.002614 Z: -2.619484

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000667 1.243099
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Papuan.DG -0.000544 -1.003899
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.001504 Z: -2.079850

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.003042 2.661123
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.000401 0.360063
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: -0.001691 Z: -1.208834

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000548 0.882014
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000511 -0.881531
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: -0.001349 Z: -1.842351

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000321 0.591893
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG ONG.SG -0.000609 -1.089144
dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.001346 Z: -1.866281

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.001868 3.293926
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.000647 1.145080
dscore: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi f4: -0.000322 Z: -0.442918

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.001879 1.831375
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.000028 -0.027526
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: -0.001540 Z: -1.182773

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -1.238
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -1.686
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.300
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -2.091
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.520
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published -1.775
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.592
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.619
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -2.080
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published -1.209
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.842
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -1.866
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.443
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -1.183
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.559
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.806
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.536
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.493
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -0.289
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.348
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.481
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.602
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.465
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.415
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.428
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.749
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.411
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 1.306
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.119
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.950
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published 0.354
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.855
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.916
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.057
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published -0.086
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.236
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG 0.236
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.279
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.010
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.413
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.257
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -1.187
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.352
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.077
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -1.441
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.974
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.235
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -1.274
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.132
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.961
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.158
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.313
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.835
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.225
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -0.086
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published -0.178
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.122
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG 0.132
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.617
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.076
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published -0.866
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.112
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.000
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG -1.065
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.800
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.917
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -0.939
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.168
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.800
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.626
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.460
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.374
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published -0.330
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.153
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.158
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.602
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.255
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.619
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.894
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.653
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.720
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.737
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.272
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.631
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 1.091
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.567
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.228
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 1.286
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 2.320
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.763
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.129
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.217
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG 0.238
gendstat: Papuan.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.562
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.027
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.233
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG 0.244
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.979
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.082
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG 0.005
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.337
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.143
gendstat: ONG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.338
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.148
gendstat: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -1.001

##end of qpAdm: 2.291 seconds cpu 0.827 Mbytes in use

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1861002436
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
ponticgreek
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 13 chisq: 16.411 tail: 0.227652452 dofdiff: 15 chisqdiff: -16.411 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.455
China_Tianyuan 0.228
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.311
Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.369
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.667
Turkey_N_published 1.995
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.050
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.872
Papuan.DG 0.038
Israel_Natufian_published 1.852
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.089
ONG.SG -0.033
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.700
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.503
A:
scale 985.794
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.001
Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz -0.999

full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: 16.411 taildiff: 0.227652452
B:
scale 659.683 962.837
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.583 0.030
China_Tianyuan 0.613 0.676
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.347 -0.127
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.639 1.759
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.918 -0.192
Turkey_N_published 1.297 -1.929
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.663 1.015
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.530 -0.771
Papuan.DG 0.440 0.626
Israel_Natufian_published 2.006 -0.783
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.361 0.754
ONG.SG 0.212 0.477
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.232 -1.516
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.240 0.975
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz 0.000 1.414

best coefficients: 0.500 0.500
totmean: 0.500 0.500
boot mean: 0.499 0.501
std. errors: 0.073 0.073

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
5346 -5346
-5346 5346

summ: ponticgreek 2 0.227652 0.499 0.501 5346 -5346 5346

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 13 16.411 0.227652 0.500 0.500
01 1 14 68.785 3.20081e-09 1.000 0.000
10 1 14 57.685 2.97542e-07 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.227652 - -
best pat: 10 2.97542e-07 chi(nested): 41.274 p-value for nested model: 1.32322e-10

coeffs: 0.500 0.500

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000884 1.384109
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000032 0.044292
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000458 Z: 0.736911

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000929 1.263714
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz China_Tianyuan 0.000702 0.845049
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000816 Z: 1.137829

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000525 0.980666
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000132 -0.212188
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000197 Z: 0.373474

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000969 -1.836263
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.001826 3.021005
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000430 Z: 0.828197

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001392 -2.032289
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000199 -0.247325
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000796 Z: -1.174027

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001966 3.845090
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Turkey_N_published -0.002004 -3.297215
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: -0.000020 Z: -0.039211

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.001005 1.308561
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.001054 1.172802
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.001029 Z: 1.348710

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002319 -2.996201
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000801 -0.944422
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.001559 Z: -2.097145

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000667 1.243099
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Papuan.DG 0.000651 1.056604
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000659 Z: 1.261514

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.003042 2.661123
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Israel_Natufian_published -0.000813 -0.685253
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.001113 Z: 1.035388

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000548 0.882014
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000783 1.178402
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000665 Z: 1.138853

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000321 0.591893
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz ONG.SG 0.000496 0.822909
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000408 Z: 0.783034

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.001868 3.293926
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.001575 -2.412478
dscore: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi f4: 0.000146 Z: 0.259611

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.001879 1.831375
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.001013 0.889496
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.001446 Z: 1.433914

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.737
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 1.138
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.373
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.828
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.174
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published -0.039
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.349
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.097
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 1.262
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 1.035
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.139
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.783
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.260
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.434
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 0.476
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.334
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.045
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.623
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -0.754
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.688
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.476
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG 0.307
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.587
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.307
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.082
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.465
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.944
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.744
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.540
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.930
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published -1.203
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.243
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.629
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -0.229
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 0.257
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.210
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -0.598
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.907
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.599
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.337
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.272
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -0.324
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.972
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.987
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.672
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.785
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.644
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG 0.314
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.071
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.159
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.905
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published -0.884
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.814
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.729
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 0.413
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.636
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.405
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.038
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.527
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.016
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 1.164
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 2.016
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.957
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 1.974
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.658
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 2.022
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 1.714
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.385
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 2.151
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.400
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.082
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG 1.232
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 1.086
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.172
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG 0.802
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.363
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.549
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.704
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.502
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.070
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.482
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.864
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.160
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.375
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 2.838
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 2.228
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 2.740
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 2.662
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 2.274
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 2.635
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.415
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.012
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.502
gendstat: Papuan.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.876
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.764
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.408
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.656
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.906
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.240
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -0.501
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.862
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.752
gendstat: ONG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.461
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.012
gendstat: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.345

##end of qpAdm: 2.284 seconds cpu 0.827 Mbytes in use

Mycenean + Armenian = 33.2% + 66.8% (std. error = 9.9% which is kind of bad).

Mycenean + Turkey_Hittite_Period = fail.

Mycenean + Iran_Hajji-Firuz_IronAge = 50% + 50% (std. error = 7.3% which is almost perfect).

So you can see, no matter how you spin it, Pontic Greeks have very visible Mycenean genetics in addition to their local South Caucasus ancestry, which is exactly in line with their historical origin.
10-12-21, 14:51
ihype02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bekas

Sour grapes, friend. Why would an Albanian poster be so sour about Pontic Greeks being related to ancient Greeks, what would be the repercussion for the West Balkans, anyways, Pontics are Ionics + Colchians by historical sources and they speak Ionic Greek, they have nothing to do with Albanians or the Balkans, they never mixed with them or fought against them or whatever, no one cares about Albania or Albanians in Pontic circles.

And here are some other pass runs, with Caucasus references, for you since you think I cherry pick, if you have any ideas you want to test further, I can try and accommodate you, write it here or send a PM. I apologize in advance, mods, for taking space in this thread.

Mycenean + Armenian = 33.2% + 66.8% (std. error = 9.9% which is kind of bad).

Mycenean + Turkey_Hittite_Period = fail.

Mycenean + Iran_Hajji-Firuz_IronAge = 50% + 50% (std. error = 7.3% which is almost perfect).

So you can see, no matter how you spin it, Pontic Greeks have very visible Mycenean genetics in addition to their local South Caucasus ancestry, which is exactly in line with their historical origin.

Nobody is buying your BS that Pontians are 33%-40% shifted towards Mycenaeans compared to Armenians. That would mean that they are closer to Dodecanese than to Armenians. And in every single PCA that I have seen Armenians plot West of Pontians.
I have never seen anyone use this method before so probably you must've digged really hard to find good results for yourself.

I have no sour. And just as you said I have no reason to have sour. Just move along I don't care. I don't believe you. I am not arguing anymore so don't derail this thread anymore.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...3054d89322487d
10-12-21, 15:47
Bekas

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihype02

Nobody is buying your BS that Pontians are 33%-40% shifted towards Mycenaeans compared to Armenians. That would mean that they are closer to Dodecanese than to Armenians. And in every single PCA that I have seen Armenians plot West of Pontians.
I have never seen anyone use this method before so probably you must've digged really hard to find good results for yourself.

I have no sour. And just as you said I have no reason to have sour. Just move along I don't care. I don't believe you. I am not arguing anymore so don't derail this thread anymore.

No need to get mad, bro. You can recreate all these runs down to the last decimal by using the open source qpAdm tools that are available freely to everyone, and use the Reich dataset.

Instead, you'd rather refer to the closed source "calculator" by some random blogger, who apparently is more trustworthy than qpAdm and the Reich dataset, even though all the stuff people post with his calculator contradict what is posted in the papers by Reich Labs and others, very funny, you should become a comedian.

And if no one uses qpAdm then maybe they should, there are tutorials floating around on the Net, then maybe there'll be less BS flying around, like the stuff you posted.

Now carry on with your ignorance, my work is done here.

PS. Your 2D "PCA" is very funny, I've seen more professional plots made by 11 years olds on EXCEL.
10-12-21, 15:59
Palermo Trapani

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salento

He’s from Pietralcina (Campania - Benevento), His convent is in San Giovanni Rotondo and he also founded a hospital there, … I’ve been there in the past on more than one occasion to visit sick relatives, … it’s one of the best hospitals around.

… I’m doing fine, Thanks, … hope you’re OK too :)

Good to hear. I am well thanks. Ok, he is from Campania but his Capuchin Community is based in San Giovanni Rotondo and the Hospital he founded.
10-12-21, 16:06
ihype02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bekas

No need to get mad, bro. You can recreate all these runs down to the last decimal by using the open source qpAdm tools that are available freely to everyone, and use the Reich dataset.

Instead, you'd rather refer to the closed source "calculator" by some random blogger, who apparently is more trustworthy than qpAdm and the Reich dataset, even though all the stuff people post with his calculator contradict what is posted in the papers by Reich Labs and others, very funny, you should become a comedian.

And if no one uses qpAdm then maybe they should, there are tutorials floating around on the Net, then maybe there'll be less BS flying around, like the stuff you posted.

Now carry on with your ignorance, my work is done here.

PS. Your 2D "PCA" is very funny, I've seen more professional plots made by 11 years olds on EXCEL.

As I said before I have tested K12b and G25 they pretty much on par with results of Academic studies in most cases and G25 in all cases. And those 2 calculator are used by 95% of the community. I seriously doubt that you didn't use G25 and K12b first before moving with qpAdm.

I don't agree with this model below, but just showing that Pontians are not substantially shifted away from Armenians.

Target: Greek_Pontus
Distance: 6.0923% / 6.09228533

96.7 Armenian_East

3.3 NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2)

Target: Greek_Pontus
Distance: 6.7888% / 6.78877332

99.4 Armenian_West

0.6 NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2)
10-12-21, 16:39
Dorian9

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihype02

As I said before I have tested K12b and G25 they pretty much on par with results of Academic studies in most cases and G25 in all cases. And those 2 calculator are used by 95% of the community. I seriously doubt that you didn't use G25 and K12b first before moving with qpAdm.

I don't agree with this model below, but just showing that Pontians are not substantially shifted away from Armenians.

You are assuming Armenians are some kind of pure relics for the broader area and that they are relevant for Pontians native part , don't you know already that similar profiles can be created/end up plotting together through different processes ?like for example Aegean Islanders & Ashkenazis ? Going by your logic , Ashkenazis must be converted Aegeans or is it the opposite?
Bad distance btw
10-12-21, 16:58
Bekas

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihype02

As I said before I have tested K12b and G25 they pretty much on par with results of Academic studies in most cases and G25 in all cases. And those 2 calculator are used by 95% of the community. I seriously doubt that you didn't use G25 and K12b first before moving with qpAdm.

Dude, all Southern Caucasians have overlapping genetic components just like you Balkanites do, and the reason being is that they all essentially derive ancestries from Kura-Araxes, Maikop and other groups in the area. I told you Pontics are Myceneans + local Colchis, do you know who ancient Colchians were? Do you know why Greeks went there? Are you familiar with the importance of the area in the ancient Greek world, the myth of Jason and the Argonauts and the ancient tragedy of Medea by Euripides?

Do you have an ancient Colchis sample? No? Neither do I, that's why I use other proxies in the geographical area, like Georgians, Armenians, Maikop, Kura-araxes, etc.

And they all pass showing 60-70% "native" South Caucasus and 30-40% Mycenean.

And you bring me those laughable PCAs as an answer in order to tell me it's barely 10-15%, when I provide you with proof it's not. And, by the way, since you use 25 dimensions in your PCA, flip the dimensions and show us how the PCA looks like from other "angles", ie using other dimensions in the X and Y axis, not just the one that suits your little fairytale.

You Albanian guys are something else, proclaimed experts on all things ancient Greek, too bad it's all BS.

Target: Greek_Trabzon Distance: 2.3295% / 0.02329537
62.8	RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya

37.2	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Georgian_Laz Distance: 2.0513% / 0.02051298
74.8	RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya

25.2	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Greek_Pontus Distance: 6.0923% / 6.09228533
96.7	Armenian_East

3.3	NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2)

Target: Greek_Pontus Distance: 6.7888% / 6.78877332
99.4	Armenian_West

0.6	NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2)

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