The genetic origin of Daunians

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne

Thank you Palermo. As usual your posts I find highly valuable.

Also, interesting thing. You are in my eyes the biggest proof there is continuity between certain ancient peoples of the Italian peninsula and modern ones. It might not be the case on an average basis. But when these discussions have been mentioned, you have popped in my mind, and I have amended my opinions when I would think different.

Edit: When the Pugliese I-M223 samples BAM file comes out I have a feeling you will find an ancient cousin.

---

ArchetypeOne: Your welcome my friend. Glad my posts add something to the forum and this thread in particular. Yes, it will be interesting to see how I plot relative to that I-M223 individual. As soon as the Kit is uploaded to GEDMATCH and sample is available at MTA, I plan to do the analysis. So you may be correct but on the other hand, I-M223 has been documented in Italy, Central Italy (Lazio) since late Mesolithic as those WHG in the Antonio et al 2019 paper were all I-M436, with 2 of them in the immediate downstream sub-clade I-M223. There is a pre-print "Genomic and dietary transitions during the Mesolithic and Early Neolithic in Sicily" that I am still hoping gets published soon and BAM files become publicly available as it has some samples from Trapani Province in Sicily (The Grotto Dell Uzzo site) not yet published. 4 WHG's are in the study and 2 of them are Y-DNA I, with one of them I-M436. There are 19 ancient Sicilian Genomes in that study. A couple of heavy hitters are on the paper, i.e. Haak and Krause.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

This is what Dodecad Globe 13 shows comparing Bulgarian_IA to modern populations. The closest are C_Italians, after them, Southern Italians.

Distance to:	Mathieson_et_al_2018:I5769
4.35862364	C_Italian_D
6.84000000	Sicilian_D
7.14573999	S_Italian_Sicilian_D
8.34441130	Jovialis
8.86282122	Tuscan
9.62546622	TSI30
9.75733570	Greek_D
10.20468520	Ashkenazi_D
10.67040768	Ashkenazy_Jews
13.56376054	O_Italian_D
14.68657891	Sephardic_Jews
14.70032653	Morocco_Jews
15.69992357	North_Italian
17.52265962	N_Italian_D
19.60529520	Canarias_1KG
21.09306995	Murcia_1KG
21.46964369	Andalucia_1KG
22.00703524	Baleares_1KG
22.84621632	Portuguese_D
22.93891017	Cypriots
23.00577319	Extremadura_1KG
23.43219153	Turkish_Aydin_Ho
23.74488577	Turkish_Cypriot_D
24.08098005	Galicia_1KG
24.21164183	Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG

---

I cannot run global 13


but below is my 7

Distance to:	TorzioK7
2.67228367	N_Italian
5.24281413	North_Italian
5.67671560	Bulgarians
5.82555577	Romanians
6.63559342	Bulgarian
7.41330561	O_Italian
9.44473928	TSI30
9.53433270	Tuscan
10.58302887	Baleares
11.69294232	Extremadura
12.00096246	Andalucia
12.04304364	Murcia
12.20807520	Galicia
12.49627545	Portuguese
12.51850231	Spaniards
14.00975018	Castilla_La_Mancha
14.02857441	Castilla_Y_Leon
14.24651185	Cataluna
14.24987368	Canarias
14.29945803	Spanish
14.68853635	Valencia
16.08443658	Aragon
16.27375494	C_Italian
16.49227395	Cantabria
16.94057555	French

bulgarians with North -italians

dodecad 7b ancient

I removed everything in AD times

Distance to:	TorzioK7
1.61043472	Balkans_BronzeAge:I3313_Croatia_LBA
2.24388057	C7_Iron_Age_European:R474_(Etruscan)_Civitavecchia
2.24486080	Balkans_BronzeAge:I4332__Croatia_EMBA
2.67856305	C7_Iron_Age_European:R1_(Protovillanovan)_Martinsi curo
2.73038459	Balkans_BronzeAge:I4331_Croatia_EMBA
5.03334879	Balkans_BronzeAge:I2165_Bulgaria_EBA
6.72892265	Vucedol:I3499_Croatia_Vucedol
8.72565757	Beaker_N_Italy_BA:I1979

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by torzio

I cannot run global 13


but below is my 7

Distance to:	TorzioK7
2.67228367	N_Italian
5.24281413	North_Italian
5.67671560	Bulgarians
5.82555577	Romanians
6.63559342	Bulgarian
7.41330561	O_Italian
9.44473928	TSI30
9.53433270	Tuscan
10.58302887	Baleares
11.69294232	Extremadura
12.00096246	Andalucia
12.04304364	Murcia
12.20807520	Galicia
12.49627545	Portuguese
12.51850231	Spaniards
14.00975018	Castilla_La_Mancha
14.02857441	Castilla_Y_Leon
14.24651185	Cataluna
14.24987368	Canarias
14.29945803	Spanish
14.68853635	Valencia
16.08443658	Aragon
16.27375494	C_Italian
16.49227395	Cantabria
16.94057555	French

bulgarians with North -italians

---

What does this have to do with Bulgarian Iron Age though?

Modern Bulgarians are a 24 plus distances from the Iron Age Bulgarian sample we are talking about

Distance to:	Bulgarians_Y
24.21610208	I5769

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

What does this have to do with Bulgarian Iron Age though?

Modern Bulgarians are a 24 plus distances from the Iron Age Bulgarian sample we are talking about

Distance to:	Bulgarians_Y
24.21610208	I5769

---

already placed
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post581077



female


"I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)*. Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton in flexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head to SE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper) ornaments smaller than 5 mm."


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26416319/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Modern Apulians are pulled in the direction of CHG, which is the opposite direction of North Africa, and the Moors. Also, modern DNA shows that Apulians only have trace amounts at most of North African. The modeling from Raveane et al. 2018 do not even model Apulians with North African.

From the Antonio et al. 2019 samples, we see some CHG/IN in Central Italian Neolithic samples at a relatively higher rate than for example LBK. Puglia has been a starting point for Neolithic migrations in Italy. Thus I believe that Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from the region will reflect higher CHG that was present in later farmers migrating from the East, already found in Greece_N. I think this legacy would have survived in Pre-Italic people. It would not have been in later comers like the Daunians. This is why C6 existed in the IA, among samples like R437.

---

https://i.imgur.com/DoEN3a7.png

All four grandparents of mine, come from the region as Bari. As far as I know, all four of their grandparents do as well. So my sample is a good proxy for the lack of a Puglia sample. Take a look at the PCA, this confirms what I am saying. My sample is pulled slightly upward on the PCA on the z-axis, toward CHG sources. In the opposite direction you have North African influence, which is why Canarias is on a different z-axis from North Italian. Despite Canarias being seemingly on the same general area as North Italian, on a 2D PCA. The 3D PCA shows there is indeed a difference, and that is due to North African influence in Canarias. The same is shown with Moorish samples from Medieval Spain. Seemingly they are with North Italian samples on a 2D PCA, but they actually exist far beneath that cloud cluster of Italian samples, on the z-axis. This is why 3D PCA analysis is far better than 2D.

https://i.imgur.com/WB2KbEl.png

https://i.imgur.com/SOoF6EH.png

https://i.imgur.com/shj0ULj.png

Samples from Antonio et al. 2019,

Note the half-north African R475 and C3 North African cluster are much lower on the z-axis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

https://i.imgur.com/shj0ULj.png

Samples from Antonio et al. 2019,

Note the half-north African R475 and C3 North African cluster are much lower on the z-axis.

---

R475 is unlikely half-north African, more likely her non-Etruscan ancestry was a Sardo-Punic mix, so 1/4 north African. You know, they used a neolithic sample from Morocco which also has ancestry from the neolithic of Iberia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by torzio

As for your Bulgarian sample .................north-italians always match bulgarian and provenzal french samples closely..........it goes back at least 6 years

---

You are confusing Bulgarian modern samples with Bulgaria_Iron Age

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

R475 is unlikely half-north African, more likely her non-Etruscan ancestry was a Sardo-Punic mix, so 1/4 north African. You know, they used a neolithic sample from Morocco which also has ancestry from the neolithic of Iberia.

---

I see, nevertheless the point I was making that it is pulled in the direction of North Africans, is evident by the position on the z-axis of the PCA.

The Paleolithic north Africans are even further down on the z axis, with neolithic Morocco intermediate between Europeans and Paleolithic north Africa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

I see, nevertheless the point I was making that it is pulled in the direction of North Africans, is evident by the position on the z-axis of the PCA.
The Paleolithic north Africans are even further down on the z axis, with neolithic Morocco intermediate between Europeans and Paleolithic north Africa.

---

Got it. In any case it is indeed pulled towards North Africans, the Sardinians themselves are in a certain sense, but R475 is not half North African as Antonio 2019 claims (Antonio claims that is 53% African which is even more confusing since we know that North Africans are different genetically from sub-Saharan African populations) and this is proved by the sample used by Antonio which is the same as a previous study that showed that in North Africa there had been gene flow from the Iberian Neolithic.

Maybe carthegenians influnce
On R475:thinking:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingjohn

Maybe carthegenians influnce
On R475:thinking:

---

Sardo-Punic, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_people#Sardo-Punics

https://repository.library.brown.edu...dr:792869/PDF/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

Sardo-Punic, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_people#Sardo-Punics

---

I posted the mtdna in the future etruscan paper
If the dude from anthrogenica anlaysis of bam files is valid ...
Than there are 2 individuals who carry mtdna L2
:thinking:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...626#post628626

we will have to wait for the full paper to be published to be sure
But there might be some north african influence even from back in the iron age
If it exist in mtdna types we could see it autosomally speaking in some individuals:thinking:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingjohn

I posted the mtdna in the future etruscan paper
If the dude from anthrogenica anlaysis of bam files is valid ...
Than there are 2 individuals who carry mtdna L2
:thinking:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...626#post628626
we will have to wait for the full paper to be published to be sure
But there might be some north african influence even from back in the iron age
If it exist in mtdna types we could see it autosomally speaking in some individuals:thinking:

---

Sure, it's possible. There were also slaves, not only foreign guests (traders, artisans...). The Etruscans were also as violent and predatory as any other ethnic group of the same era. Just recently, the skeleton of one who had been buried still in chains was found. But without knowing the archaeological context of each find it's not very informative. In any case, the study says that an Etruscan genetic profile is maintained throughout the course of the first millennium BC despite the presence of foreigners.

TAQ could be Tarquinia, in northern Lazio. I don't know what it could be VEN.

TAQ011 (C7858T 92.0% -0 +4): L2a1c3a

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2a1c3a/

VEN009 (C16355T 87.0% -0 +9): L2b1a

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2b1a/


On Yfull L2a1c3a is found in a Spaniard, L2a1c3a2 in a Slovak. L2a1c3a in particular may have other possible explanations.

L2b1a. On Yfull among the Europeans there is a Spaniard and two Ligurians from Imperia, which is on the border with France.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingjohn

I posted the mtdna in the future etruscan paper
If the dude from anthrogenica anlaysis of bam files is valid ...
Than there are 2 individuals who carry mtdna L2
:thinking:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...626#post628626
we will have to wait for the full paper to be published to be sure
But there might be some north african influence even from back in the iron age
If it exist in mtdna types we could see it autosomally speaking in some individuals:thinking:

---

I read somewhere that L2a1c3a is pretty common among North Africans. Furthermore, the abstract from this study did mention individuals with North African, Central European and Near Eastern ancestry. However, I don’t know whether they’re referring to mixed Etruscans or foreigners who resided in Etruria.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani

ArchetypeOne: Here is the same analysis that Jovialis did in post #274 and what I did in post #277 using Eurogenes K13 updated Modern Populations which has 3 reference populations from Albania with Eurogenes K13 Ancient Coordinates for Bulgarian I5769.

Distance to:	I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
7.91786587	French_Corsica
9.16833136	PalermoTrapani_Combined
9.27951507	Italian_Lazio
9.87052177	Italian_Marche
10.09024281	Italian_Umbria
11.16326117	Italian_Tuscan
11.26628599	Italian_Romagna
11.74729756	Italian_Abruzzo
11.75408440	Italian
11.93531734	Italian_Molise
12.28392038	Italian_Sicily
12.29196486	Italian_Apulia
12.41296902	Italian_Basilicata
13.26128953	Greek_Western-Thrace
13.31609552	Italian_Campania
13.43489486	Italian_Emilia
13.95051970	Italian_Liguria
14.37559738	Malta
14.56942346	Greek_Cyclades
14.56986616	Moroccan_Jew
14.84789547	Italian_Calabria
15.40336002	Greek_Athens
15.53956241	Italian_Lombardy
16.22616714	Greek_Ionia
16.25672476	Albanian_Tosk

---

Ancient Thracians are pretty hard to place among modern populations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

Sure, it's possible. There were also slaves, not only foreign guests (traders, artisans...). The Etruscans were also as violent and predatory as any other ethnic group of the same era. Just recently, the skeleton of one who had been buried still in chains was found. But without knowing the archaeological context of each find it's not very informative. In any case, the study says that an Etruscan genetic profile is maintained throughout the course of the first millennium BC despite the presence of foreigners.

TAQ could be Tarquinia, in northern Lazio. I don't know what it could be VEN.

TAQ011 (C7858T 92.0% -0 +4): L2a1c3a

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2a1c3a/

VEN009 (C16355T 87.0% -0 +9): L2b1a

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2b1a/


On Yfull L2a1c3a is found in a Spaniard, L2a1c3a2 in a Slovak. L2a1c3a in particular may have other possible explanations.

L2b1a. On Yfull among the Europeans there is a Spaniard and two Ligurians from Imperia, which is on the border with France.

---

an old member of Eupedia

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post427426

surname Corso and paternal Grandfather from Belluno....grandmother from Piemonte

My paternal grandmother is from Mondovì in Piemonte, and my paternal grandfather is from Belluno in Veneto.

Is this the imperia one ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by real expert

I read somewhere that L2a1c3a is pretty common among North Africans. Furthermore, the abstract from this study did mention individuals with North African, Central European and Near Eastern ancestry. However, I don’t know whether they’re referring to mixed Etruscans or foreigners who resided in Etruria.

---

Source? How many north Africans do you see here?

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2a1c3a/

Maybe you confuse with L2a1c1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by torzio

an old member of Eupedia

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post427426

surname Corso and paternal Grandfather from Belluno....grandmother from Piemonte

My paternal grandmother is from Mondovì in Piemonte, and my paternal grandfather is from Belluno in Veneto.

Is this the imperia one ?

---

No, her maternal ancestors are indeed all from Western Liguria (likely Savona area) but she has a different mtDNA, L3f1b, while the two from Imperia are L2b1a. In Europe on Yfull there are only Spanish there.

https://yfull.com/mtree/L3f1b/


I read the old discussion. The problem with the studies of the past on modern Italian samples is that they were managed by a series of Italian geneticists intellectually dishonest and quite incompetent who went to dig for both mtDNA and Y-DNA rare in Italians to attribute them to the Etruscans. Today we know, as archaeologists and anthropologists had already concluded many years ago, that the opposite is true.

The main problem with all these haplogroups (L3f1b which is the one of the old Eupedia user, or the two mtDNAs L2a1c3a and L2b1a found in the samples of which however we know nothing else, not even the exact age or the archeological contextt) is that they all have formation times and TMRCA of 10-15 thousand years.

There is even mtDNA L2a1k detected in Czechs and Slovaks, but it seems that it's not the only mtDNA L2 found there.

Reconstructing the phylogeny of African mitochondrial DNA lineages in Slavs

"To elucidate the origin of African-specific mtDNA lineages, revealed previously in Slavonic populations (at frequency of about 0.4%), we completely sequenced eight African genomes belonging to haplogroups L1b, L2a, L3b, L3d and M1 gathered from Russians, Czechs, Slovaks and Poles. Results of phylogeographic analysis suggest that at least part of the African mtDNA lineages found in Slavs (such as L1b, L3b1, L3d) appears to be of West African origin, testifying to an opportunity of their occurrence as a result of migrations to Eastern Europe through Iberia. However, a prehistoric introgression of African mtDNA lineages into Eastern Europe (approximately 10 000 years ago) seems to be probable only for European-specific subclade L2a1a, defined by coding region mutations at positions 6722 and 12903 and detected in Czechs and Slovaks. Further studies of the nature of African admixture in gene pools of Europeans require the essential enlargement of databases of African complete mitochondrial genomes."

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg200870

might interest Salento

https://www.academia.edu/16985920/Me...tural_Contexts

Messapian Steles: Native Funerary Stones in Cross-cultural Contexts

It might be that the L2a1c3a and L2b1a found in etruscan future paper
are native european branches who originated in europe situ
Like L2a1k who detacted in slavs
Will see the sites of remains and the timeline like pax augusta say ..... :thinking:

P.s
Although in the abstract like real expert mention
While there is continue in the etruscan autosomal profile some individuals where central european, north african , near eastern autosomally speaking

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingjohn

It might be that the L2a1c3a and L2b1a found in etruscan future paper
are native european branches who originated in europe situ
Like L2a1k who detacted in slavs
Will see the sites of remains and the timeline like pax augusta say ..... :thinking:

---

L2b1a seems more likely to be of African descent than the other. But let's wait for the information that is still missing and the archaeological context. Often the archaeological context is not enough though, especially if we are dealing with remains found at the end of the 1800s and beginning of the 1900s. Because some graves were also reused in the following centuries. See the case of ETR001, a find from the 1800s with no archaeological context, which was hastily labeled as an Etruscan woman, then the recent analysis found that it was actually a Roman woman of late imperial age.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingjohn

Although in the abstract like real expert mention
While there is continue in the etruscan autosomal profile some individuals where central european, north african , near eastern autosomally speaking

---

Indeed, you're right but here again it is a bit problematic. Are these Etruscans with foreign origin or are they simply foreigners? Archaeology speaks of some cases of Celts, Italics, Latins being naturalized, but it happens, I think, not very early. For the most ancient times it is assumed that there was some marriage with the Nuragic Sardinians. But even here, it is unlikely to have involved the entire population. As well as some Punic presence. In the north of Italy are assumed marriages between Etruscans and Rhaetian people. Certainly in Bologna there were also Veneti, as well as certainly Ligurians in northern Etruria. From orientalizing onwards certainly many presences of Greeks, even Ionian Greeks, and merchants and craftsmen possibly Levantine. But, generally speaking, we don't know much about how the Etruscans viewed the foreigners and those with foreign ancestry (and this is true for other ancient ethnicities as well).

There is the well-known story of the Etruscan Lucius Tarquinius Priscus who became King of Rome, the story was told by Emperor Claudius, considered an expert on Etruscan civilization and who had written in Greek the Tyrrhenica, a twenty-book Etruscan history, and a text on the Etruscan language. Lucius Tarquinius Priscus, born to a Greek father from Corinth and to an Etruscan mother from Tarquinia, was forced to migrate from Tarquinia to Rome because in Tarquinia the foreign origin of his father did not grant him access to public office. This story tells us that the Etruscans did not look kindly on those with foreign origins, but we don't know much more than that. We don't know if it was really so, and if it was so always during 1000 years. Because we must never forget that the Etruscan civilization lasted 10 centuries, 1000 years or so, the Etruscans were quite numerous and were spread over a very wide territory, which went from northern Italy to extensions in Campania, in Magna Graecia. If the Etruscans had a not very open attitude towards foreigners, most likely what happened in Rome, which was from the beginning the fusion of several different pre-Roman ethnic groups, will end up influencing gradually the attitude of the Etruscans as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingjohn

thanks for sharing:good_job:

y dna ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253


regions of samples :

https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

---

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johane Derite

Earliest Messapic inscriptions in italy begin in 7th century BC.

---

This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?







This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

---

1. All of them supposedly. This study solely focused on Daunians.
2. Totally agree. Daunians might have been there much earlier for all we know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

Source? How many north Africans do you see here?

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2a1c3a/

Maybe you confuse with L2a1c1.........

---

Quite frankly, I can’t remember from which forum I got this information, it could’ve been reddit. What I recall is, that a North African/Tunisian individual who had the mtdna L claimed that L2a1c3a is pretty common among Berbers. With that said, it’s very possible that he conflated L2a1c3a with L2a1c1. Anyway, we’ll soon see whether the carriers of L2a1c3a and L2b1a were Etruscans proper, or North Africans/ North African admixed Etruscans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?
This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

---

SGR001 is dated to early midiveal 670-774Ad and he show along with ORD010
Some move thowrds near east in pca according to paper... ( page 5)
:thinking:

P.s
I don't think he is daunian even his y haplogroup is I1 a nordic haplogroup...
The other ones in the list above supposed to be daunian dated from 1157bc-275bc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingjohn

SGR001 is dated to early midiveal 670-774Ad and he show along with ORD010
Some move thowrds near east in pca according to paper... ( page 5)
:thinking:
P.s
I don't think he is daunian even his y haplogroup is I1 a nordic haplogroup...
The other ones in the list above supposed to be daunian dated from 1157bc-275bc

---

He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.

---

Could be
Did someone uploaded him to gedmatch ?
What are his k12b values ?
Did he show high northwest african % ?

P.s
Did normans were in this region ( given his y haplogroup)
Or the dates of him are much before there arrival:thinking:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.

---

where did you get Moorish from ??

Moors are basically Berbers that became Arabinized after the Arabs invaded NW Africa


Early Medieval individual (SGR001 (670 - 774) calCE (95.4%)) belonging to haplogroup I1-M253, which is common in Northern Europe and previously also detected in a 6th Century Langobard burial from North Italy.

SGR001 — San Giovanni Rotondo — Date 1285 ± 23 BP; 670 - 774 calCE — Haplogroups U3a - I1-M253 — Genome coverage 0.044 — # of SNPs 59,213

San Giovanni Rotondo The San Giovanni Rotondo samples come from the osteo-archaeological collection of the Museum of Anthropology of the University of Padova and are not associated to any further record with the exception of a broad “Iron Age” archaeological label and may be part of the samples brought to the Museum by Prof. Santo Tiné in the 1960s

Looks more Lombard to me ............moving south after the Lombards went to Italy and took it from the Ostrogoths and then established southern Italy as Lombard , especially areas like Benevento region in Italy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?







This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

---

paper separates them into

https://i.postimg.cc/BQJtvddD/affinity-to-croatia.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

...............................

Iberia. However, a prehistoric introgression of African mtDNA lineages into Eastern Europe (approximately 10 000 years ago) seems to be probable only for European-specific subclade L2a1a, defined by coding region mutations at positions 6722 and 12903 and detected in Czechs and Slovaks. Further studies of the nature of African admixture in gene pools of Europeans require the essential enlargement of databases of African complete mitochondrial genomes.".......

---

By, the way, how did the SSA mtDNA L2 end up in Europe 10,000 years ago? To me, it appears that it is only plausible that it was meditated by SSA admixed North Africans who found their way via Gibraltar, Iberia to Central/Eastern Europe. It’s very unlikely that a population straight from West or Central Africa went to Europe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by real expert

By, the way, how did the SSA mtDNA L2 end up in Europe 10,000 years ago? To me, it appears that it is only plausible that it was meditated by SSA admixed North Africans who found their way via Gibraltar, Iberia to Central/Eastern Europe. It’s very unlikely that a population straight from West or Central Africa went to Europe.

---

10000 years ago did ancestral components and SSA admixed North Africans exist? I don't think so, there were just hunter gatherers everywhere.
But if such an ancient introgression is hypothesized for Czechs and Slovaks, I do not see why it cannot be hypothesized for others as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

10000 years ago did ancestral components and SSA admixed North Africans exist? I don't think so, there were just hunter gatherers everywhere.
But if such an ancient introgression is hypothesized for Czechs and Slovaks, I do not see why it cannot be hypothesized for others as well.

---

Sorry, I didn't quite get what you mean. Do you think SSA hunter gathers wandered directly to Europe, 10,000 years ago? And what about the Iberomaurusians from around 15 k years ago? They were 1/3 SSA-like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by real expert

Sorry, I didn't quite get what you mean. Do you think SSA hunter gathers wandered directly to Europe, 10,000 years ago? And what about the Iberomaurusians from around 15 k years ago? They were 1/3 SSA-like.

---

It's not my opinion, it's a hypothesis of the study on how certain L2 mtDNAs arrived among Slavs. The ancestral composition of the Iberomaurusians is based on a two-way admixture scenario based on the samples available. However you are right, they have been modeled as if they were 65% Natufian and 35% SSA circa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by torzio

where did you get Moorish from ??

Moors are basically Berbers that became Arabinized after the Arabs invaded NW Africa


Early Medieval individual (SGR001 (670 - 774) calCE (95.4%)) belonging to haplogroup I1-M253, which is common in Northern Europe and previously also detected in a 6th Century Langobard burial from North Italy.

SGR001 — San Giovanni Rotondo — Date 1285 ± 23 BP; 670 - 774 calCE — Haplogroups U3a - I1-M253 — Genome coverage 0.044 — # of SNPs 59,213

San Giovanni Rotondo The San Giovanni Rotondo samples come from the osteo-archaeological collection of the Museum of Anthropology of the University of Padova and are not associated to any further record with the exception of a broad “Iron Age” archaeological label and may be part of the samples brought to the Museum by Prof. Santo Tiné in the 1960s

Looks more Lombard to me ............moving south after the Lombards went to Italy and took it from the Ostrogoths and then established southern Italy as Lombard , especially areas like Benevento region in Italy

---

Do you know the history of medieval Foggia? Also how on earth could they be Lombard influenced if they're pulled south and west of modern Puglia on the PCA?

In 1224, Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II, responding to religious uprisings in Sicily, expelled all Muslims from the island, transferring many to Lucera (Lugêrah, as it was known in Arabic) over the next two decades. In this controlled environment, they could not challenge royal authority and they benefited the crown in taxes and military service. Their numbers eventually reached between 15,000 and 20,000, leading Lucera to be called Lucaera Saracenorum because it represented the last stronghold of Islamic presence in Italy. During peacetime, Muslims in Lucera were predominantly farmers. They grew durum wheat, barley, legumes, grapes and other fruits. Muslims also kept bees for honey.[5]
The colony thrived for 75 years until it was sacked in 1300 by Christian forces under the command of Giovanni Pippino di Barletta, with the acquiescence of Charles II of Naples. The majority of the city's Muslim inhabitants were slaughtered or – as happened to almost 10,000 of them – sold into slavery,[6] or exiled, with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea.[7] T

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucera

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingjohn

In 1224, Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II, responding to religious uprisings in Sicily, expelled all Muslims from the island, transferring many to Lucera (Lugêrah, as it was known in Arabic) over the next two decades. In this controlled environment, they could not challenge royal authority and they benefited the crown in taxes and military service. Their numbers eventually reached between 15,000 and 20,000, leading Lucera to be called Lucaera Saracenorum because it represented the last stronghold of Islamic presence in Italy. During peacetime, Muslims in Lucera were predominantly farmers. They grew durum wheat, barley, legumes, grapes and other fruits. Muslims also kept bees for honey.[5]
The colony thrived for 75 years until it was sacked in 1300 by Christian forces under the command of Giovanni Pippino di Barletta, with the acquiescence of Charles II of Naples. The majority of the city's Muslim inhabitants were slaughtered or – as happened to almost 10,000 of them – sold into slavery,[6] or exiled, with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea.[7] T

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucera

---

It seems Albania has a tradition of being exilé friendly. Be it with these Saracens, Jews fleeing Nazis during WW2, Turkish Crypto billionaires or even Voldemord (for those familiar with Harry Potter) [emoji38].

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Do you know the history of medieval Foggia? Also how on earth could they be Lombard influenced if they're pulled south and west of modern Puglia on the PCA?

---

the paper shows he only matches Ice-Man ( fig A )

Where does it say he matches Apulians ?