The G25 ones, but they are different now though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax Augusta
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The G25 ones, but they are different now though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax Augusta
Got it, so a different set of academic samples.Quote:
Originally Posted by ihype02
New here, but these models are interesting. From what I read of the Daunian paper it does seem that ancient Daunian samples carry more WHG-related and Anatolia_N (likely EEF-related ancestry) so some of these results indicate that imo.
But you say that the fits are bad, do you mean those with distance >2.0? Also, would these be scaled or unscaled coordinates?
I think it's worth adding Anatolia_BA to at least check if any of these samples have Anatolian-related ancestry distinct from Minoan or if bad fits are more of a consequence of low coverage.
Here you go:https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post638321Quote:
Originally Posted by SandbagsIA
Thank you, these results make sense to me, and I suspect this Anatolia_BA may reflect some antiquity (Hellenistic/Roman) events of Anatolia-South Europe interactions (possibly due to the Greek colonies)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
Btw, which population are you using as Greek? Is it one of of the Global_25 presets like Greek_Macedonia or Greek_Peloponnese or a composite?
The Greek sample comes from Dodecad. But I believe it is from Central Greece.Quote:
Originally Posted by SandbagsIA
Then the results are even more reasonable imo, though if it is the samples I think of they are likely Central Greek islanders (If it's the Central_Greek labeled-ones from the Dodecad project) rather than Central Greeks from mainland Greece. They should be close to Peloponnesians but likely have some more Anatolia_BA-ancestry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
The paper is officially out. Link provided by Lazaridis; many thanks as always.
https://academic.oup.com/mbe/advance...searchresult=1
I've already said it, but I do wish academics would stop talking about the genetic history of "The Italians". Just look at the space we occupy on the PCA. Everybody else in Europe starts looking like the Han by comparison.
As I probably also said, the Daunians look to me like western shifted Central Italians and Tuscans.
Yes, but that J2b2-L283 was probably brought by the Illyrian part of Daunians. It's interesting that they give an indirect hint that the J2b2-L283 might have been potentially richer in CHG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
Quote:
Another signal coming from qpAdm analyses is the apparent excess of CHG ancestry in IAA; however, the predominant contribution of CHG to the Steppe-related ancestry that, by the Iron Age, had already spread to the Mediterranean area makes it hard to properly detect a CHG signature independent from the Steppe wave, possibly brought by pan-Mediterranean influxes. When directly investigated with an f4 framework, IAA shows generally more CHG than Mycenaean, less CHG than contemporary Croatian_EIA and, in some cases (ORD019, SGR002 and the Mediaeval SGR001 with Z-scores higher than 2) more CHG than older Croatian samples (_N=Neolithic and _MN=Middle Neolithic) (Supplementary fig. 8).
I think the authors are pretty circumspect about all of this.
"It is not clear whether these connections indicate a movement of people or a sharing ofcultural ideas and a conclusive answer to the origin of the Daunians remains elusive. From aparsimony perspective, the genetic results point to an autochthonous origin (e.g. a geneticcontinuity of Daunians with the population that inhabited the area prior to the examined historicalperiod), here mainly marked by the presence of WHG signature, although we cannot excludeadditional influences from Croatia (ancient Illyria), as described by available historical sourcesand by the material remains (De Juliis 1988; Norman 2016)."
In another part of the paper they say that some contribution from the Balkans is plausible.
". Three of them, which clustered close to modern Italians in the PCA (ORD001, ORD014 and SGR003, Fig. 1C), show higher affinity with the Iron Age Croatian sample (ORD004 followed this pattern too, but with lower f3 values). However, the remaining majority are closest to the Roman Republicans, which can be interpreted as representative of local Iron Age peninsular Italy ancestry, as also indicated by our MDS results."
I think it's interesting, going over the text of this paper once again, to think of the work Jovialis has done with the Balkan samples, as well as the Roman Republican samples.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk
we do not know who the Daunian merged/absorbed with as per italic people around Foggia ................but their next door neighbours to the west where always the samnites until the 3rd Roman-Samnite war.......then the Romans moved in after this war
IIRC Venosa was also Samnite in origin
The archeological/linguistic data is pretty clear on this. The Albanian language is undeniably linked with Messapian. There are countless comparisons between the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
Messapians were always a mixture of Western Balkan migrants and native Italians. I just wish we did a deep subclade analysis on those J2B2-L283 samples, to see which part of the Western Balkans they came from.
"The Iapygians most likely left the eastern coasts of the Adriatic for Italy from the 11th century BC onwards,[25] merging with pre-existing Italic and Mycenean cultures and providing a decisive cultural and linguistic imprint"
That was written in 2005^.
Yes, well, "linguists" were wrong about the Etruscans. As for the Indo-European linguists, put five of them in a room and you'll get five different opinions. That's why I stay away from such discussions. It's like being on a merry-go-round.
The majority of these samples are closest to the Iron Age Central Italians, i.e. the Etruscans and the Latins. That's why the authors come down on the side of saying it was an authochthonous culture. Does that mean there wasn't some genetic impact from across the Adriatic? No, it doesn't.
It's not implausible, although the fact that a minority of the samples show a similarity to Iron Age Croatians is not dispositive in and of itself for me. Northern Italians are very close to ancient Illyrians. Does that mean that Illyrians came and settled in Italy, or does it mean that similar people settled both Northern Italy and "Illyria". I think the latter is much more "plausible"
As for the Messapian people, let's wait and see their genetic profile. They were different from the Daunians in that they accepted foreign influences much more readily. Perhaps that translated to admixture as well.
How were linguists wrong about Etruscans? Etruscans and Romans are genetically linked, but the Etruscan language is clearly non-Indo European. That's not an uncommon occurrence. The Frankish royalty spoke a Germanic language, while the common people spoke French. The Normans spoke French, while the lower class spoke English. With the Bulgars, they were Turkic, but the population spoke Slavic. Some times the royalty imposes their language on the population, sometimes they don't. And the Etruscans seems to have initially adopted the language of their rulers, but later switched to Latin like their kin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
Messapian and Albanian are undeniably linked. They show you an entire section of cognates from whatever inscriptions we have. Not to mention all the grammar similarities too.
Messapic lexical item English translation Proto-Messapic form Paleo-Balkan languages Other Indo-European cognates Sources ana mother *annā (a nursery word) Proto-Albanian: *na(n)nā, *amma; Albanian: nënë/nana, ëmë/âmë ('mother') Hittite: annaš ('mother'); Latin: amma ('mother'); Greek: ámma ('mother, nurse'); [61] anda and, as well Proto-Abanian: *edhō/êndō; Albanian: edhe/ênde ('and', 'yet', 'therefore') Latin: ante ("opposite, in front of"); Hittite: anda; Greek: endha/ΕΝΘΑ; ('and' , 'as well') [62] apa from *apo Proto-Albanian: *apo; Albanian: (për-)apë ('from'); Albanian (Gheg): pi (PI < apa) ('from') or pa (PA < *apa) ('without') Greek: apó; Sanskrit: ápa [63] atabulus sirocco Proto-Albanian: *abula; Albanian: avull ('steam, vapor') Proto-Germanic: *nebulaz ('fog') [64] aran field *h₂r°h₃ā- Proto-Albanian: *arā: Albanian: arë, ara ('field') Hittite: arba- ('border, area'); Latvian: ara ('field') [65] bàrka belly Proto-Albanian: *baruka; Albanian: bark ('belly') [66] Barzidihi (personal name) Illyrian: Bardyl(l)is;Proto-Albanian: *bardza; Albanian: bardhë/bardhi, Bardha ('white', found also in anthroponyms, e.g., Bardhyl)[a] [68] bennan (a sort of vehicle) *benna Gaulish: benna (a kind of 'carriage') [69] biles/bilihi son Proto-Albanian: *bira; Albanian: bir, pl. bilj - bij ('son') Latin: fīlius ('son') [70] biliā/bilina daughter *bhu-lyā Proto-Albanian: *birilā; Albanian: bijë - bija ('daughter'); older dialect bilë - bila ('daughter') Latin: fīlia ('daughter') [70] bréndon; bréntion stag; stag's head Proto-Albanian: *brina; Albanian: bri, brî ('horn'; 'antler') Lithuanian: briedis, ('elk'); Swedish: brinde ('elk')The Messapic word is at the origin of the toponym Brendésion (Βρενδέσιον), Brentḗsion (Βρεντήσιον), modern Brindisi [71] Damatura Mother Earth (goddess) *dʰǵʰ(e)m- matura Proto-Albanian: *dzō; Albanian: dhe ('earth') Latvian: Zemes Māte ('Mother Earth')Whether the (pre-)Illyrian form is at the origin of the Greek goddess Demeter or the contrary is unclear.[72] [73] deiva; dīva god; goddess Sanskrit: devá ('heavenly, divine'); Lithuanian Diēvas; Old Norse: Týr [74] den voice *ghen Proto-Albanian: *džana; Albanian: zë/zâ, zër/zân ('voice') [75] hazavaθi to offer (sacral) ha- is a prefix, zav- is the same root as in Greek: χεών, Sanskrit ju-hô-ti and Avestan: zaotar- ('sacrificer') [76] hipades he/she/it offers, dedicates, sets up *supo dhē-s-t Proto-Albanian: *skūpa: Albanian: hip ('go up') and dha/dhash ('he gave/I gave') [77] hipakaθi offer, set up Albanian: hip ('go up') and ka/kam ('he has/I have') > hip-ka- [78] klaohi/klohi hear, listen (invocative) *kleu-s- Albanian: kluoj/kluaj/kluhem ('call, hear') Greek: klythí ('hear'); Sanskrit: śrudhí ('hear'); Slavic: slušati ('hear'); Lithuanian: klausyti ('hear') [79] kos someone *qwo Proto-Albanian: *kuša; Albanian: kush ('who') Tocharian A: Kus ('who') [80] ma not *meh₁ Albanian: ma, me, mos Greek: mē; Sanskrit: mā [81] menza foal *mendyo Proto-Albanian: *mandja; Albanian: mëz - maz ('foal'); mend ('to suckle'); Romanian (< Dacian) mînz ('foal') Gaulish: mandus ('foal') [82] ner man *ner- Proto-Albanian: *nera; Albanian: njeri ('man') Greek: ανηρ ('man'); Sanskrit: nar- ('man') [83] penkaheh five Proto-Albanian: *pentše; Albanian: pesë ('five') Lithuanian: penki ('five') [84] rhīnós fog, mist, cloud Proto-Albanian: *rina: Albanian: re, rê, rên ('cloud') [85] tabarā; tabaras priestess; priest (lit. 'offerer') *to-bhorā; *to-bhoros Albanian: të bie/të bar, bjer/bar ('bring', 'carry') Greek: ϕορός ('bring'); Latin: ferō ('bring') [86] teutāTaotor community, people(name of a god) *Toutor Illyrian: Teuta(na) ('mistress of the people', 'queen') Oscan: touto ('community'); Old Irish: túath ('tribe, people'); Lithuanian: tautà ('people'); Gothic þiuda 'folk' [87] veinan his; one's Albanian: vetë ('himself, oneself') Sanskrit: svayàm ('himself') [88] Venas desire (name of a goddess) *wenos Latin: Venus; Old Indic: vánas ('desire') [89] Zis sky-god *dyēs Illyrian: dei- or -dí ('heaven, god', as a prefix or suffix);Albanian Zojz ('sky-god') Hittite: šīuš ('god'); Sanskrit: Dyáuṣ; Greek: Zeus; Latin: Jove ('sky-god') [90]
Just stop. Messapians weren't Daunians, for one thing. We have no inscriptions for the Daunian language.
For another, I've occasionally read some posts in the Albanian language thread, where everybody has their favorite linguist. It doesn't inspire confidence.
As to the Etruscan language, there were "linguists" here and at anthrogenica and theapricity and on and on who argued vociferously that the Etruscan language couldn't be a European language; it had to come from somewhere in the east. None of them, including people who post here, wanted to know that inscriptions found further east were probably left by Etruscan traders. Btw, I have yet to see ANYONE man up and say "I WAS WRONG." Don't presume to tell me the history of this or what the arguments were; I've been at this for 12 years. Btw, you're still wrong about the Etruscans. The steppe admixed people who brought R1b lineages adopted the language of the native Italian Chalcolithic people already here, unlike the "Latins"; unless, that is, someone can explain how steppe admixed people spoke a non-Indo-European language. Think Basques.
Now go play this game on your Albanian threads. This is a paper about THE GENETIC ORIGIN of the Daunians, and we're talking about genetics. If you have something interesting to add in that regard which hasn't yet been addressed, by all means post it.
it being understood that the Daunian were different from the Messapi, but since we are also talking about Messapi here, I consider the recent discovery (08.01.2022) which took place in the Lower Salento to be relevant.
New light on the Messapi, research in the necropolis of Alezio (Lower Salento). An excavation campaign unearths tombs and the ceremonial square of the site in Puglia. The grave of a child; olives as an offering to propitiate the afterlife. The Messapian necropolis of Monte d'Elia, in Alezio, thanks to an initial research campaign conducted by the Archeology Laboratory of the University of Salento, offers new evidence of an ancient civilization. The findings: a ceremonial square, numerous tombs, including that of a child, an ossuary, the remains of olives, are just some of the new discoveries. Having concluded the excavation operations in recent days, we now continue with the analysis of the finds. Over the course of a few weeks of research, new fundamental data emerged for the knowledge of Messapian civilization, first of all through the topographical reconstruction of the Monte d'Elia area and the recognition of the funerary rituals practiced there in ancient times. Of extreme importance is the fact that concerns the identification of a large ceremonial square around which, within enclosures built with large boulders, the groups of tombs belonging to nuclei of families or clans were concentrated. This was the arrival point of the processions that accompanied the deceased on the last journey from the house to the place of burial. More detailed elements come from the excavation of burials that were not intercepted during the investigations of the 1980s by the Archaeological Superintendence of Puglia. In fact, a pit was identified, with a floor in limestone blocks and a frame in carparo, inside which the remains of at least 12 individuals were accumulated. In short, an ossuary linked to the functioning of the necropolis and to the practice of reusing funerary structures for various depositions. Some objects belonging to the grave goods were found, such as a lamp, a plate, a trozzella, a typical Messapian vase, two loom weights and a javelin point.
Mind being a little more respectful? All I said is that Etruscan is not an Indo-European language. That's an established fact. I didn't say it's not a European language, because not all European languages are Indo-European in nature. Look at Basques.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
As for the Daunians, they are all classified as Iapygians along with Messapians, and they spoke the Messapian language. We have inscriptions from their civilizations. I don't understand the controversy here. Pardon me for being a "biased Albanian" though.
The Iapygians were a "relatively homogeneous linguistic community" speaking a non-Italic, Indo-European language, commonly called 'Messapic'. The language, written in variants of the Greek alphabet, is attested from the mid-6th to the late-2nd century BC.[6]
Quote:
Originally Posted by enter_tain
The term Iapygians
the area includes all of modern Apulia and part of northeastern Basilicata (mainly the Melfese). This area corresponds roughly to ancient Iapygia (or Apulia), which, according to Greek and Roman literary tradition as well as in the archaeological record, was occupied by three Iapygian peoples: the Messapians to the south (roughly the Salentine Peninsula), the Peucetians in central Apulia, and the Daunians to the north, including the Melfese, now in Basilicata
The iapodes/Japodes refers to the Croatian Illyrian tribes that the Daunians are linked to
Mind not posting under yet another sock?Quote:
Originally Posted by enter_tain
You asked how linguists were wrong about the Etruscan language; I told you. You seemed confused about who adopted whose language, so I tried to clear up the confusion.
Maybe you think it's disrespectful to say that linguists always disagree with one another, and consensus is hard to come by, or that the thread on the Albanian language is full of people spitting out their favorite linguist's opinion and how the linguist of someone else is completely wrong? I don't see how you can deny that, and I don't think it's disrespectful.
Now I "will" be disrespectful, but not to you, unless you happen to be a inguist. I don't think linguistics is a "science" at all, so someone's linguistic theory is never going to be a determining factor for me. It's like psychology and sociology, which are called social sciences but are also not sciences, and whose conclusions, quoted by everyone and his mother, can rarely be replicated. I'm entitled to my opinion about all of this, whether or not it bothers linguists and social scientists.
My point is that there is nothing in this paper to suggest that the Daunians are transplanted people from the Balkans. How could they be, when the majority of them are closest to CENTRAL ITALIAN Iron Age people? Could there have been some influx from the Balkans? It's certainly possible, even plausible. Somehow that's not good enough for you?
Instead of taking offense at the littlest thing, maybe people should just get on with the actual work of analyzing genetic data as logically and reasonably and with as little, yes, bias, as possible.
Sock? It's amusing that you'd think I'd waste my time with making sock accounts on a random forum. I haven't posted here since like 2013 or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
There is a difference between analyzing unattested language/s like "Illyrian". That's the source of the argument in that other thread. That there's no first hand accounts to extensively analyze.
You're denying basic facts of attested languages. That's a whole other debate. Messapian and Albanian are both attested languages (as is Etruscan), and I don't know of any linguist that denies a link between the two. If that's the case, please show me. Messapian is studied by Albanian, because there are very little other cognates outside of it.
might be of use
http://www.asciatopo.altervista.org/illyria.html
The Roman province of Illyricum was bounded by the Ras^a river (toward Venetia), the river Drin (toward Macedonia), and the Adriatic sea. Toward Pannonia and Moesia in the interior the boundaries are less clear but they should have followed the mountain ranges of Velebit, Bosnia, and Montenegro.
From the river Ras^a to the river Zrmanja and then to the Krka, the land was inhabited by Iapydes and Liburni, from the Krka to the river Neretva, it was called Dalmatia, and from the Neretva to the Drin, Illyria proper (Barbara or Romana).
Illyrian Proper is Pliny term for Southern Illyrian who where not celtinized.
Illyricum in Pliny times was from south Slovenia to South Montenegro.
Italian terms of Barbara or Romana needs to be looked at
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
Here I disagree: linguistic, spite not a "hard" science, is science when practised by someones who stay on facts and distinguish between acquired certitudes and hypothesis: serious linguists in some way. What is true is that we see today a lot of new theories on languages popping up, which I modestly find science fiction. It isn't to say we can put all linguists in the same bag...
Concerning the ties between some ancient Italy people and Northwestern Balkans we ought to be careful because it seems Italy has received a lot of people from this region at least between Chalcolithic and Iron, and not only across sea but also through the northeastern lands.
It's of little value as an hazardous hypothesis, but I wonder if the principal factor of differenciation between Celts and Italics (I see between bronze and early Iron) geographic distance left aside is not this geographic proximity of Italics with N-W Balkans and the exchanges made possible?
Most of the migration into Italy north of Rome, at least, came, imo, through the flat lands in the northeast which skirt the Alps. From France into Italy and vice versa in, say, Liguria, it's easier to travel by boat. Yes, there are mountain passes from the central Alps into Italy; I was born and lived along one of the major routes, the Via Francigena. It's much easier to skirt them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOESAN
That doesn't mean that I think the gene flow necessarily came from the Balkans around Croatia, for example. I think that it is just as plausible that the similarities between Balkan people and Italians are due in some part to the fact that the same groups migrated to both places.
That's as true for the steppe admixed groups in central Europe as it is for the eastern admixed groups which influenced Italy on a cline from south to north.
I see all of this in my own results using Jovialis' calculator. My results are a combination of Italian Chalcolithic, La Tene, Bulgarian Bronze Age, and Minoan.
My aim was to say the possible (relatively important) ties could be multifolds. But Croatia (before today political name) could have been an important point of departure for Italy at different times even if of course things are a bit more complicated.