This sums up the reality pretty well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
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This sums up the reality pretty well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
You do realise how ironic that statement is, considering that he actually started that war for defending Russian people in Donbas which are definitely majority wise on his and Russias side? Practically all Russians with a little bit of patriotism and national pride agreed with him on that. They might have disagreed on his means, they might hate his regimes, but which normal thinking Russian would say: "I don't care that they fight for our people and nation, that they want to belong to our state and its also in our interest for bring them in, let's just slaughter the Ukrainian forces which hate us our brothers there..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
Seriously, that was the situation. You might say he just abused their case for propaganda and strategical reason, that he is not honestly caring that much about those people, but even if, it won't matter, the Russian people do, the majority does. The overwhelming majority might be against this war, might not have agreed with the means at all, but it is indeed in any good Russians interest to care for this area and people. If the Ukrainians, even many Russian Ukrainians, under massive media propaganda influence, began to hate Russians and taking an anti-Russian stance, that's one thing, but abandoning people which are loyal to Russia, in the midst of such conflict, that's a completely different matter.
Indeed. But if Russia wouldn't have done something against Selenski, especially the Donbas Russian people would have been crushed by the armed forces of the Selenski regime and even after that, this regime would have never agreed on giving up on Crimea peacefully, which is really at the centre of the problem. They would have used their NATO membership only to exert even more pressure on Donbas, which they probably would have conquered by then and the Russians having being either expulsed or fleeing on their own. And then they would have constantly smear and attack Russia for Crimea, while spreading anti-Putin/regime propaganda from Ukraine into Russia. It wouldn't stop at any reasonable point! Just like with the Chechens: Even when they were left alone, they still attacked Russians and Russian interests. That they had won didn't make them stop and live in peace with the Russians. This Selenski regime is quite the same, its full of anti-Russian hate and propaganda, they won't stop.Quote:
De facto the (ordinary) people in Ukraine (as in Russia) are crushed.
That's the main problem.Quote:
That Zelenski is not Buddha is also clear.
He just cares for Russian interests, that's all. He is not worse than most US presidents were, he's just in a way more difficult position than them. His options were just going all out and all-in, like he did with this horrible war, or watching Russian enemies taking everything they want by force and any later correction being even way more difficult. The West should have helped to find a compromise about Crimea and Donbas, he even offered Minsk II, which was a very fair deal and starting point for peace in Donbas. The Ukrainians didn't even react, they just build up forces to do it the brutal way and knew if Russia would come to help, exactly the same rain of hate and sanctions, even more support for Ukraine would come, so they trusted their strength, like they still do and don't care for human suffering.Quote:
But in fact there is no need or reason to defense Putin like you do. Whatever the reason or background is but his agenda is full of hatred, ressentiment, dedain for human dignity nothing good comes out of it....
Don't blame Putin alone on this, the Ukrainians gave the Russian nothing for a fair compromise, zero, nada. You can't expect them to just swallow that and say thanks to the USA and Selenski regime. They, regardless of who would be president of Russia, must have been masochistic and undignified if doing so.
Many observers said please stop this, it will lead to a horrible conflict, it could spiral out of control. But the USA and the Selenski regime just pushed it further and further, and now they use all their means and the Western propaganda machine to justify their position and demonise Putins Russia. They knew "the law" would be, nominally, on their side.
But that's like a very nasty neighbour which constantly does things which are against the law and ruins your day, he provokes you and provokes you, and then he films all your reactions, to see whether you transgress "the law", so he can show this "evidence" to his friends at court and in the police, which just want to hurt you as well for whatever reasons, probably because they want your property or have some grudge against you from the past. And that game goes on for years and after his 100th transgression, massive provocation, covered up by his friends at court and in the police, you just don't know how to help yourself but to punch this ********* in the face. And as soon as you do it, his wife filmed the scene, he runs to court and cries "he punched me, he punched me..."
That's the Selenski regime and how it was going with Russia. I can't just stress how saying that "Selenski is no angel" is such a big understatement.
@Riverman, you are riddling, it's always the same reasoning poor Putin had to defend himself because of.....fill in.
You share a deep sympathy for Putin's 'pride' and 'national interest' and you put him on the same level as the US and other countries in Europe.
As Timothy Snyder sums it up: 'Ilyin's Christian totalitarianism, Gumilyov's Eurasianism, and Dugin's Eurasian Nazism are the foundations of Putin's ideology. '
So it's not only about events you sum up, it's deeper....
I detest the neutrality and at times outright sympathy you have for this.
It's like I hear Riverman:
Source: CNNQuote:
"Many of the liberal groups in the European Parliament have a hatred of the type of traditional conservatism they see in Russia," said Gunnar Beck, an MEP for the German right populist party, Alternative fur Deutschland.
Speaking of his party and their partners within the European Parliament, Beck told CNN that "many of us are opposed to the fashionable social trends of our time, some of which are promoted through with public money. We look at Russia and see a European country where these issues have not gone too far, as we see it."
While Beck said that Putin's invasion is a "clear breach of international law," he and others like him still feel that the West's anger at Russia's behavior is at times "deeply hypocritical," and view Putin as an example of a leader defending his country's "heritage and values."
In this sense, the kind words that flow from Europe's populists to Moscow and vice versa feed a particular political narrative that is convenient for all sides.
That's not special for Russia, the argument would be valid for any country or regime in the same situation. Ukraines position before the war can be seen at best, really, really at best, as equal, but rather them being the cause of the problem. The Selenski regime and the USA just did everything to provoke Russia, there is absolutely no justification for what they did, absolutely not. They made no reasonable peace offer, only threatening and escalating to the next level. They didn't even implement and apply to the most basic agreements from Mink II, because they expected to crush the Donbas and drive the pro-Russian people out from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
How can you defend that position? How can you say that is something Russia should hae just swallowed, regardless of Putin or any other president which cares for Russian interests and people? Because these were the official borders the Ukraine had and they have, according to international law, the right to defend "their borders"? In this geostrategic position, with these minorities in the regions, they could have done it, but it wouldn't be just or right. Absolutely not. That is just abusing law and turning it against minorities which have other interests. For what? For some regions in Eastern Ukraine which don't want to belong to this state anyway. To cleanse them and then incorporate them again afterwards? They offered them nothing for the future and went on going with Ukraine in a direction which is clearly anti-Russian. In Minsk II they got the chance to incorporate Donbas peacefully, as autonomous regions. They didn't even negotiate, they didn't care, because they just expected to crush the Donbas pro-Russians with brute force, with NATO support.
I see nothing, absolutely nothing, more just about the cause of Selenski. Not at all. That's the main point, not that Putin is that great, but that Selenski was driving the Russians mad, and I understand how he did it and why. He didn't care for peace & reconciliation, even if that was the main issue in is rigged election campaign, in which he got all the support from the oligarchs mass media. Selenski was uncompromising and confrontational, all the time. I can never ever agree with his regime being any sort of innocent victim and Putin being the only bad guy in this geostrategic gamble. For me that perspective is biased and one sided, and can only be taken if ignoring the Russian perspective on the conflict completely.
The Russians not just tried to negotiate for years, they also complained about the constant attacks and how the Ukrainians build up forces to drive the Russians out of Donbas. Nobody reacted, the USA demanded even more support for this Ukrainian war effort, also from its allies, like Germany. Germany refused, because they just saw that escalation coming, if weaponising Ukraine against not just Putins Russia, but the Russian people. Because its Russian people in Donbas which would have become the first victim of this aggression.
The Ukrainians just waited for more weapons and the NATO back up to do it. Russia should have just sitting back and watching?
I mean seriously, these are Russian people in Donbas which fought and suffered for Russian interests. They should have left them alone, abandoning them? The Ukrainians offered absolutely no peaceful solution, no compromise which would have been remotely fair for the Russians. They only played on time for being able to solve this militarily themselves, which would have meant even more Russian refugees, and Russia abandoning its people and allies in the region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
CNN is just a propagnada outlet. You saw how they made Trump look when he made a joke?
You see them making this Selenski "a hero", regardless of how much trouble he is cousing, how cruel and relentless he is, doesn't matter. CNN is one of the TV stations which is full of hatred against Russians all the time, they manipulate and distort everything. Did they care about the Russian victims in Donbas? About the hundreds of thousands of Russian refugees? About how corrupted the Ukrainian government is, how the election was dominated by the influence of the oligarchs? Or how they cracked all dissenting voices in Ukraine down, even before the war, to just phase the mass media for the upcoming conflict, which the Selenski regime knew it was coming, because they provoked it?
Nothing, or if at all, some small lines. But everything which can be weaponised against Russia, they blew up and every voice of reason, they distort and defame. Some facts can be gathered from CNN, but otherwise, its just good as a source for seeing where radical Liberal US agenda is heading towards. Where they want to have their next war or crackdown or cancelling.
Interesting view, what about human hunger? When you combine Russia, Belarus, Ukraine you have a lot of grain production, oil, natural gas, and potash production. The key ingredients to make food. I wonder if a lot of people from grain importing countries(MENA for example), will be migrating to places like Europe and United States, when they don't have enough to eat? It will be interesting to see how this plays out with exchange of paper money and crypto currencies in exchange for basic necessities from food exporting countries like Ukraine and Russia. Looks like China is securing their food and energy resources with Russia.Quote:
Putin doesn't equal the Russians (people). There is more in the world than sphere of influence c.q land hunger.
After the pull out of Afghanistan, people sell there organs and children for food.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc7Tsgr-91k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc7Tsgr-91k
They literally quote Riverman so even it was Fox, Breitbart, Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, BBC or whatsoever doesn't make difference if they are quoting (unless the quote is fake).Quote:
CNN is just a propagnada outlet. You saw how they made Trump look when he made a joke?
You see them making this Selenski "a hero", regardless of how much trouble he is cousing, how cruel and relentless he is, doesn't matter. CNN is one of the TV stations which is full of hatred against Russians all the time, they manipulate and distort everything. Did they care about the Russian victims in Donbas? About the hundreds of thousands of Russian refugees? About how corrupted the Ukrainian government is, how the election was dominated by the influence of the oligarchs? Or how they cracked all dissenting voices in Ukraine down, even before the war, to just phase the mass media for the upcoming conflict, which the Selenski regime knew it was coming, because they provoked it?
Nothing, or if at all, some small lines. But everything which can be weaponised against Russia, they blew up and every voice of reason, they distort and defame. Some facts can be gathered from CNN, but otherwise, its just good as a source for seeing where radical Liberal US agenda is heading towards. Where they want to have their next war or crackdown or cancelling.
To get away from the current conflict, let me explain where my red lines would be for Russia in another case. Take Moldova, its obviously a Romanian country and would have been a part of Romania if the Soviet Union/Russia wouldn't have grabbed it. But Transdniestria is another matter, there live Russians and its now a separate republic, sort of:Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
https://www.britannica.com/place/Transdniestria
That's a clear case of Romanian vs. Russian interests. The Romanians not even theoretially belong to the Russian historical states sphere as much as Ukraine does, even if they are Christian orthodox. Even the percentage and historical presence of Russians in Transdniestria is much weaker than the claim on the Eastern Ukraine Russia has made now, being restricted to the core areas in Donbas. In a normal, peaceful world, Moldova would just let Transdniestria go and the Romanian rest of the country determines its own fate, by either joining the EU, or directly joining Romania. But of course there's a problem:
https://www.britannica.com/place/TransdniestriaQuote:
Much of Moldovan industry is located in Transdniestria, and in 2005 the Transdniestrian authorities severed power to Moldova. A substantial Russian military presence in Transdniestria strained Moldovan relations with Russia in the early 21st century.
Another case of how do you solve this peacefully and in a fair way, with a compromise acceptable for both sides. I see absolutely no right of Russia on the rest of Moldova, but Transdniestria has a different historical and ethnic background to the rest of the country. Still the claim is much weaker than on Eastern Ukraine. Moldovans wanting Transdniestria back would have way more of a legitimate claim ot make than the Ukrainians do, at the moment.
I simply believe in the right of self-determination for a people in a region, as long as there are no very strong arguments against it, which would relate to serious threats or worsening of a greater region and the world.
In these cases, I just think that if these countries want to go and leave the Russian sphere of direct influence, they should leave those parts of the country behind which don't want to travel with them. Simple as that. If, e.g., Moldova would accept the departure of Transdniestria and then decide to be pro-EU and probably even pro-Romanian, and the Russians would still intervene there, it would be a way stronger case for anti-Russian measures than what is happening now in Ukraine.
In Ukraine, all demands they made are reasonable and proportionate, and the Ukrainians didn't react in any meaningful manner at all, but just played with the Selenski regime the big guy with the back up of an even bigger one, namely the USA. That's for me a completely different situation.
As it would have been, just way worse, if Russians would have made aggressive demands against say the Baltic states or even worse Poland or Romania. That would have been unacceptable for me, its the opposite red line.
You have to realise that the Ukrainian case is specific. Its not meant as a whitewhash for everything Putin did or might do. Its not even a whitewash for that level of escalation he used in Ukraine, because from my perspective its not worth it, its too much suffering, too much human losses, too much of a risk and threat. That's why I also say Russia did wrong, not because of the Western position on international law or the Ukraine was right, both were wrong in this case, but because from a purely humane perspective, as well as the strategical risks, for Russia and the world, its not worth it and shouldn't have been done.
That not withstanding, the responsibility for this escalation lies also with the US intervention and especially the Selenski regime. They are as much responsible for the escalation because they did nothing to prevent it and just acted aggressively and confrontational.
Basically I'm saying both parties are guilty, I don't see how the Selenski regime is an innocent victim. Claiming so would be ridiculous. The common Ukrainian and Russian people, they are the victims of this gambling of Putin, Selenski and Biden regimes.
CNN doesn't just quote, they always frame. The image they paint of "our hero in Kiev, Selenski" and how they acquit him from any guilt for these murderous escalation is just disgusting. That's the kind of one sided coverage which they want the people to swallow by censoring any alternative media which might contradict their framing and narrative. That they can lie and manipulate unwithspoken, so people can't even have access to unfiltered facts. I know how much crap and fake news circulate, but the percentage of good information they ban is still high and its too important for a factual approach on things, which they, stations like CNN, obviously don't want. They want the exclusive right to construct the narrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
And if you support that, you shouldn't talk about democracy, because without a truly free press and media, there can be no truly democratic state. Referring to the suppression Russia does, in defense of such measures, when Russia is in a decisive war, surrounded by enemies, is ridiculous. Even more, if the West is democratic, truly so, he has to keep up different standards. But obviously, he doesn't.
Anybody know what is going to happen with Poland and Hungary;EU vote? Does it mean more financial aid for Hungary and Poland to help with the refugees?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silesian
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/...te-proceedings
The European Commission must take urgent action and immediately apply the Rule of Law Conditionality Mechanism by notifying the member states concerned in writing.
In a resolution adopted on Thursday by 478 votes to 155 and 29 abstentions, MEPs welcomed the European Court of Justice’s recent judgement dismissing the actions by Hungary and Poland against the Rule of Law Conditionality Regulation, as well as the Court’s conclusions that the regulation is in line with EU law and its powers as regards rule of law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
That's your view on the affairs Riverman. CNN or any other chancel have the freedom to see the current affair from their own perspective. No signs that the US or the EU going to put journalist in jail because of the coverage of the war like in Russia is the case.
Zelenski is indeed the man of the moment. Certainly because he is the leader of a people fighting against an agressor. Through history this has always got sympathy of the people around the world. Do I consider him holy do others of this forum consider him holy no I guess not.
By the way he certainly nows how to handle the media, he is not an old apparatschik speaker like Putin.
Phillipic speeches form somewhere on the Alps will not chance that by the way, too much echo's.....
Well, they do spread laws which cause criminal charges and fines for people publishing against the tide and from banned sources. I don't know whether you follow it up or how its in the Netherlands, but censorship being stepped up big time in various EU countries, and you already saw the pressure exerted not just on politicians, but also prominent and even common people to "denounce Russia and Putin" and stuff like that. Pure pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
And you speak about "their own perspective", that's agenda driven, with a lot of money and political pressure behind it, but as this wouldn't be enough, they have smear any opposing view and start criminal persecution. You could say its not the fault of CNN journalists, "which just do their job", but its systemic and doesn't look nice for the future of Western democracy itself.
He was an aggressor himself, because he allowed attacks on Donbas against the agreements made, refused any reasonable peace talks, didn't take negotiations and Russian concerns seriously, while preparing for an even greater war himself. That's really like the story of two neighbours I brought up, you might see one ticking out, but everything before was a series of provocations of the one "getting attacked" now.Quote:
Zelenski is indeed the man of the moment. Certainly because he is the leader of a people fighting against an agressor
Well, he was casted as an charismatic actor for playing that role, first in the TV show, then in real life, by his oligarch friend Kolomoisky. And the Western media do not criticise him, present him in the most favourable light. That's just a huge propaganda machine, which makes everything he does put into a positive frame, or being ignored, if its too horrible to talk about, and everything which Putin does is being negative. That's just outright war propaganda, as if all the money and efforts wouldn't have been enough, they now even ban alternative views. This has nothing do with democratic values or a free press any longer.Quote:
By the way he certainly nows how to handel the media, he is not an old apparatchik speaker like Putin.
You must be either the densest political commentator ever on this site, or the most wrong-headed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
As if Russia gives a jot about democratic values or a free press.
Russia has been a threat to western freedoms since Tsarist times.
It cannot get by without some strong man or other pushing around neighbours and degrading the rights of ordinary Russians.
Zelensky does not even have a viable air force let alone grandiose war plans. Poland offered him old MIG jets but Biden discouraged the idea.
Did I write anything else? In the last post I only spoke about European countries taking up censorship and come closer the Russian situation of freedom, with the excuse of "fighting desinformation". At the same time TV stations like CNN do nothing but presenting war propaganda, one sided, framed content which is supposed to emotionalise the public in an anti-Russian way, make them irrational as to how to get out of this war or evaluating the Ukrainian Selenski regimes actions properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallicanus
That's the problem.
I wasn't talking about Russia being a free and great to live in state, or caring about free press. They can't afford a free press or "international NGO's" in their country anyway, because these would be just sponsored from the outside and phased like CNN or Russian state news, just one anti-Putin all the time. If you have opponents which can set up networks sponsored with billions of dollars, you have to think about "free press".
In the West, which is supposed to be democratic and free, the situation is completely different, yet they even have to ban and crackdown on all small and individual press and journalists, which criticise the current agenda. If you think about the proportions, the assymetry of the issue, its quite telling. In the West, even the smallest, small scale and cheap efforts to counter the dominant narrative are smeared as fake news and get banned and persecuted more and more, while they demand for countries like China and Russia to accept free press and NGOs, which would instantly being financed with billions from "Western philanthropists" and organisations and directed against the government they have.
We can talk all day long about democracy, but in practise, in reality, this is just hypocritical behaviour by the establishment. Its completely understandable why they do it, but its not about "defending democratic values", not at all.
He's the sort of maniac which would nukes first, even having plenty of choices in negotiations. This guy is non compos mentis. He talks about how HE wants to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians for getting the control on territories back in which pro-Russian people live which don't even want to belong to his state. That's all what this is about, that he don't want to let them free and keep Ukraine in the maximal borders. Its pathetic how this war cause being presented as the great freedom fight. It became one, for the rest of Ukraine, because he was uncompromising all the time, Russia made a lot of reasonable offers, which he just neglected and has chosen the warpath with the help of the US Biden administration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallicanus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
Grow up.
It's a straight choice between a Russia that has never known freedom or individual rights in its long and gruesome history or else the admittedly hypocritical West that at least tries to uphold democratic values, however imperfectly.
That's the narrative, but its wrong, because there is no "Russian choice", because Russia is not nearly in shape to dominate anything beyond its direct neighbours. Its only about Russia being a potential independent partner for Europeans for specific purposes, like e.g. cheap natural gas or as a counterweight to US dominance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallicanus
This has nothing to do with censorship and suppression in Western countries, with the cheap excuse of getting "dominated by Russia". Its just the establishment which wants people to not make up their mind or considering alternative choices to their agenda. This is nothing but a propaganda trick and there is absolutely no justification for that amount of censorship and suppression in the name of democracy in the West. We're not living in a Cold War environment.
You should be a comedian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
We are nowhere near a Cold War environment. There's a pretty HOT war going on in Ukraine.
It's also a voice we see in the extreme right all over Europe.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallicanus
In the Netherlands for example we can see this evening an updated documentary about the FvD and their ties with the Kremlin.
They are no exception in Europe!
Imo it's not exaggerated to speak about a fifth column of Putin's Kremlin in Europe
I see the documentary right now, this is the central strawman:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_KornilovQuote:
Vladimir Vladimirovich Kornilov (Russian: Влади́мир Влади́мирович Корнилов) (born 13 July 1968) is a Russian journalist, political activist and writer.
Life and work[edit | edit source text]
Kornilov was originally a car mechanic. He served in the Russian army from 1986 to 1988. Since 1991 he has worked as a journalist and political activist. He sided with the Russian minority in Ukraine and was active in the Donbass movement. From 2006 to 2013, Kornilov was the head of the Ukraine Department of the CIS Institute in Kiev. In 2013 he was official director of the Center for Eurasian Studies in The Hague.
Since 2014, Kornilov has been working as a columnist (for ukraine.ru), journalist (Russia Today) and writer of political books. In 2018 he published the political crime novel Убийство в Ворсхотене (Murder in Voorschoten), set in the Netherlands.
In September 2019, Kornilov received Russian citizenship.
And he aim? The FvD party was leading in the initiative for a referendum about the possible membership of the Ukraine of the EU.
One member can block that. So even if the Netherlands is quite small in EU context it can block Ukraine.....
add:
https://www.spisok-putina.org/en/personas/kornilov-2/
add when the referendum was negative, Baudet of the FvD was tweeting this picture, 'kornilov is happy!'
https://i.postimg.cc/BnsQr8YT/Scherm...m-20-51-14.png
So, the extreme right is now aligned with a former KGB Communist autocrat because he's nationalistic, and passes anti-Woke legislation. How stupid can they be? His nationalism will ultimately mean he won't recognize "your" nationalism. In a world aligned with or subject to Putin, European countries would be as subjugated as when the authoritarianism was the authoritarianism of the left.
Sometimes I think everything has been turned on its head, and then I think, no, it was clearly there in the 20th century. Europe was the battlefield for two autocratic, anti-democratic, anti-free speech despots. In one, the means of production were left in the hands of the families which had taken control over time, and in the other they were controlled by party hacks. With the fall of the wall, oligarchs in Russia took control of them, ex KGB people, most of them, so the lines are even less blurred.
How many are really left in the middle, i.e. those who really believe in democracy, no matter how imperfect, and free speech for everyone. Very few, sadly, I'm starting to believe.
The clearly do share an agenda. When the Forum of Democracy made a very big win in the election of 2019, Dugin was lyrically, he stated 'Baudet is the ticket for the future'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
They have something to offer each other something the anti-democratic, anti-political liberal stance, Dugin's 'fourth political theory' they share very clearly.
Front National in France got millions of the Kremlin, the FPÖ of Austria had even a agreement with the Kremlin, Lega Nord in Italy has also ties with the Kremlin, in Germany they have two irons in the fire the AfD (extreme right) and Die Linke (the 'ex' communist).
Now the rest of the party's are getting awake in the Netherlands last week there was an initiative to start parliamentary inquiry to Russian finances in Dutch politics. But I guess they didn't left any bill.....Anyway these party's are still a minority!
These are just double standards, because you know or should know how much money all parties get from many sources, of which many have way more "demands" than the Russians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
Its like the outrage in the USA about the fairly small Russian Intervention in the US elections.
But the massive manipulations by big money and big tech are no problem, even if they come from other countries too.
Its just a problem if the support goes against the agenda of the Establishment. Its just hypocrisy and gets even more absurd if looking at how, and with which brutal means, the US constantly interfere in the politics of other countries.
These are massive, expensive campaigns in the US and abroad all the time. But if its against the agenda of the Establishment, then, and only then, its fake news and evil manipulation.
If its lies for the agenda, even if they admit it, sometimes decades later, its "good lies with good intentions".
That kind of approach has zero to do with Moral and democracy. It undermines moral and democracy, which is why the driving forces demand even more censorship, cancel culture and deliberate manipulation.
They hurt democracy with their lie� and by pushing agendas forward the majority of the people doesn't agree with.
Like in Ukraine, they voted for an actor which played the peace maker on TV and in the election campaign, but became warmonger for the oligarchs instead. The Ukrainians now support him because the whole country came under attack, which was also part of his gambling and unrelentless attack on Russian interests.
Obama too was voted for ending wars, but said "the Blob" won in the foreign ministry, and he started a series of new wars instead and will be known in history books, the honest ones, as "the drone killer". He murdered more people with drone strikes than any president before per year, up to this point, as far as I know.
But according to CNN and the Nobel prize commitee he was a dove and peacemaker, while Trump was a warmonger.
One big lie after another and soon there will be no, not even minor alternative correction if the censor the press dead.
But that's all no problem according to some peoples version of Democracy.
I don't blame you or the Romanians for not liking Russia more often than not. Its the history of the region and you don't consider the bigger framework.Quote:
Originally Posted by aalexa
Nonsens and you know that. The Baudet case is a clear story of ties with a strawman from the Kremlin and until today Baudet is his maters cq Putin”s voice…..Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
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