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Originally Posted by Riverman
Well, the Russians have moved Ukrainians deep into Russia to internment camps there.
In any case,we are not comparing like with like.
The West with all its many faults is still better than ANYTHING whatever that mafia-run state Russia can offer.
Russia was a disgrace in Tsarist times, in Communist times and is still a blight under Putin.
The Western states are one thing, Selenskis Ukraine is another. Do you get what I mean? Selenskis Ukraine is a corrupt state run largely by the regional oligarchs and the US agents. Its being weaponised against Russia, suppresses Russian people and activists, censors the media worse than in Russia by now and they attacked the Donbas, committing atrocities there and planned to conquer it by force, while denying all appeals from Russia for a diplomatic solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallicanus
Do you get it now? I don't want to exchange the Western system in the West with Russian standards, or that we become vassals of Putin or anything like that. That's not what I'm saying, not at all. Its so absurd to even consider that, its completely out of question, this is American nonsense-propaganda.
Its strictly about what happened and happens in Ukraine: That's a conflict on its own, caused by the US interference and an aggressive, corrupted Ukrainian regime which sought the confrontation with Russia. Now they got it and want to drag the rest of Europe into it. I'm against that, nothing else.
No, it's so typical: I understand Putin and his demands. Putin is ultra-nationalist, ethnocentric and aggressive in his foreign policy. And extremely repressive inwardly. Why would you strive for objectivity in that sense. That only ends in garrulous reflections from which the understanding of a dictator drips....Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
The difference lies in the fact that I don't feel any need to go along with that ethnocentric nonsense for just a second and you do that constantly Riverman. And you declare him a victim of war hitters (Zelenski, USA). Nonsense the man himself is a megalomaniac dictator.
But no, Riverman continues to lick Putin's boots of war. Disgusting But no, we should not see it that way because Putin is only rational, his demands are completely justified, etc. It is the evil world that Putin has made...
Absolutely not, because he didn't start it. It was the American interference which krept towards him and which humiliated and blocked the Russians every time they tried to come closer to the Western states. In fact, he just gave up on it, because of the hostility which came from the West, especially from the USA, especially from people like Biden and Biden himself. You have to look at the prelude, at what happened before. It hasn't happened from one day to the next and you are just biased.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
By the way, the most dangerous man of the world is not Putin, but Biden, with his aggressive stance while becoming mentally incapable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsOnnLts-4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsOnnLts-4U
And this guy wants confrontation with Russia and shoots down all European efforts to come to a peaceful solution! Nobody asked the Americans to intervene there, they just try to take this region over, try to make it a 3rd world vassal state and making them sell their assets.
That's the problem, that's causing this conflict, this totally irresponsible American policy.
Its not evil to care and protect the own people from foreign aggression and manipulation, which would create a state of foreign dominance and dependence.Quote:
But no, we should not see it that way because Putin is only rational, his demands are completely justified, etc. It is the evil world that Putin has made...
Its evil to weaponise a people and state, jeopardise them, like the USA did with Ukraine, for bringing a competitor down and buying their assets up, which did nothing but protect its very own sphere of interest and independence, which being much more limited than that of the USA.
It has changed under American pressure, but the people are the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
As soon as American pressure disappears, the "old Germans" will return.
Have you read this "masterpiece" (written by an American Jew) before?: :thinking:
"(...) 2. Background of Germanism
(...) To love their country is for the Germans to despise, flout and insult every other country. They are capable of little else but cheating and lying, even to themselves. They meddle in everyone else's affairs, poking their nose into matters that do not concern them, criticizing everything, bossing everything, lowering and distorting everything. What a pity that twenty-three centuries after Socrates and Plato, two thousand years after Christ, the voice of men like these should still be heard in the world, worse still that they should be listened to, and worst of all that any one should believe them! Country for them is an isolated organism and they admit it is possible for them to live and breathe in an atmosphere of haughty contempt for their neighbors.They conceive their country as a permanent element of dissolution like a devouring and insatiable monster, a beast of prey, whose one function is to plunder. All that it does not possess it has been robbed of. The universe belongs to it by right. Whoever attempts to escape from its tyranny is a rebel. This jingo country, this bloodthirsty fetish of which they are the champions, they endow, with the capriciousness of potentates, when it suits their purpose, with every marvelous and charming attribute. Whoever does not at once agree with their extravagances is a barbarian. You must love their country [Germany] in full armor, with dervish-like celebrations and howls, eyes shut and body trembling with ecstasy; a deaf ear must be turned to the rest of the world on its failings.Everything that is not It must be hated. Hate is sacred. Love and hate are in connection with your country two terms proceeding from one condition of mind. For them Industrial progress is not a happy sign of national prosperity but a means of domination. Geography is not the science of the earth, but a mere revelation of the boundaries between which are elaborated strategical schemes of conquest. Every neighbor is of necessity a jealous one, and the enemy who is vigilant is jealous too. The world is populated by hyenas crouching on the plots of earth from which they ought to be dislodged.
The German has decided that his race has been elected by God to order the modern world. Anyone who resists him will be an arrogant usurper, who ought to be crushed. The German professes to want peace, but it must be his own sort of peace, after the pattern of the Persian satrap's who, out of love for peace and concord, throws everyone to the lions who dares dispute him. His voice is raucous and resounding; he does not argue but makes sweeping assertions and lays down the law. As the first sign of resistance he grows crimson in the face, and has resource to thunder and lightning. He holds forth on the authority of a sacred categorical imperative which stands in the stead of truth and order; he respects nothing and no one. Should he find himself confronted by the law, he says that it needs reforming.Ministers are mere clerks to be used as pawns in his manoeuvering. He is exacting and cantankerous; whoever undertakes to shout with him never shouts loud enough. To give in to him means becoming enlisted as his civil agent. He is an agitator and swashbuckler. He dips his pen in gall appeal and he sets in motion with his antics the marionettes which to the nation and may come to conquer it. The fundamental superiority of the German race, the necessity of expanding German prestige in all quarters of the globe, of protecting the German wherever he may be found, no matter what he may be, because he bears within him a residuum of the race; that is what the educators of youth coming down the years in disciplined array like battalions crossing the manoeuver fields, have never ceased to drum into the popular understanding and the flame of victory rising to the sky will be the signal for it to boil over. (note 1)
A vivid portrait of a Nazi? Emphatically so, and yet, though thirty years have past since it was first written, we can easily discern, in the character of the German of that remote period, every single trait which characterized the German madmen of today. Yesterday they may have been called Pan-Germans; today Nazis; tomorrow perhaps Supergerman. Time cannot change the infernal breed, whatever its label. Time merely enlarges the field in which the German can, with ever-increasing intensity and thoroughness, practice those monstrous acts which his fevered, war-intoxicated brain dictates, and his vile instincts and barbaric, savage soul prompts. If today the urge of his war-soul can prompt the German to murder innocent hostages imagine, if you can, how that same soul will express itself through the thousandfold-more-fanatic German of tomorrow?
To most people the fantastic "progress" of the Nazi has seemed as meteoric and unexpected as an unheralded bolt of lightning suddenly discharged from the heavens. Others hold tenaciously, with dangerous deception, to the opinion that the Nazi came into power only as a result of the German-termed "inequities" of the Versailles treaty, and that the beliefs and aims of the Nazi were, and are, merely the result of a contemporary but transient political and economic upheaval in Germany. Such opinions gave birth to the most outstanding criminal misconception of the Nazi and his party; that after those so-called injustices to Germany were remedied, the Nazi would vanish from the scene by his own accord, or the German people would rise up in revolt against him.
Such misconceptions of his origin, structure and purpose were eagerly fostered and disseminated by the Nazis themselves. We know how belief in them has already led a dozen nations to their doom, and yet not so long ago a prominent member of our congress arose and declared that the German idea of world-dominion was a fantasy, and advised Americans to dismiss the avowed aims of the Nazis a fabulous myths! (note 2) Such utterances are not only born of incredible stupidity but, if not downright traitorous, are extremely dangerous, for they tend to blind people to those stark realities which they must face, firmly and honestly, if they are ever to successfully combat them. Too, such beliefs tend to diffuse among our people that same indifference, lethargy and irresponsibility which permeated the peoples of those nations which, one by one, fell victim to the German peril. These nations found that the German peril was not a myth; the sufferings of their people are the best description of the German character, methods, and final aims.
By thus helping to create the impression of his transiency of character and purpose, and by promoting propaganda proclaiming his ever-imminent downfall, the Nazi knew full well that those nations would incorrectly gauge the strength and deprecate the durability of his party and, what was and is infinitely more important, would fail to correctly interpret the growth and aims of the Nazi as being compatible to, and not at variance with, the German character; a bud whose nourishment is drawn not from an isolated branch but from the very roots of the German soul.
For it must be patent by now that while all the Germans may not approve of the means being employed by the Nazis in achieving German-world-dominion, they are practically unanimous in agreeing that that goal must, now or in the future, be definitely achieved by Germany. Were the German nations to win this war, not one German would hesitate laying claim to a share in the loot. But, losing the war, they intend to be ready to disclaim, individually, the actions taken by then collectively, under their "government." Thus they intend to escape, once again, punishment for their crimes. Yet defeat will on no account erase their desire to conquer and rule the world. There is only one way to frustrate such a desire:
Therefore, it is most essential that we realize as an irreconcilable fact the truth that the Nazis are not beings existing apart from the German people. They are the German people! For to the German, Nazi or not, the Mailed Fist is stimulating and meaningful as symbol of all the aims and aspirations of his nation as the Statue of Liberty is to the American. Make no mistake about it; world- dominion is not a mirage to the German; it never was, and so long as Germany exists as a nation, it never will be. A belief to the contrary, if too-long sustained, may well result in the world's enslavement by the German.
As fantastic and as cyclonic as Nazi "accomplishments" might seem, it is still more fantastic to note as a fact that in the entire annals of history no doctrine ever existed which has all its major beliefs so clearly defined, its methods so concisely detailed, and its aims so vividly, comprehensively, and boldly stated beforehand. It is in every respect a deliberate, ruthlessly calculated plot to rule the world or, failing that, to annihilate it! And so long as the German nation exists it intends, in one form or another, now or later, to bring about just such a catastrophe.
The unfortunate neglect displayed by the various governments in preparing for the cataclysmic events brought about by the German Nazis becomes all the more startling and tragic when we examine records existing by the thousands and emanating solely from German unbiased sources, some written as far back as fifty years ago, clearly indicating the precise course of procedure to be some day adopted by the German in his march to world- conquest. These documents are not pedantic treaties expressing theories or extravaganzas dealing in fables or fancies. They are substantial, sober outpourings from the very soul of Germandom. And as such they define lucidly its structure, and interpret frankly its yearnings.
Moreover, these records are so exact in their theme and comprehensive in their scope that the Nazis have adopted and embraced them almost ad verbatim. In searching through these original papers one is struck by the realization that Mein Kampf is nothing more than a clumsily-written hodge-podge collection of the writings, opinions and teachings contained in those records and expounded by Germans years before Adolf Schickelgruber war born! As we shall see later, even Hitler's much-publicized mystic prophecies, and his time-tables of conquests are merely reprints of those published, too, long before his time.
If Hitler was able to make such rapid strides in resurrecting again the monstrosity that is Germanism, it was only because the German people, long before his birth, had already become completely instilled with each and every principle and precept, with every yearning and desire which he himself, later, came merely to express and advocate. The poisonous wine of destruction has long before been distilled; Hitler is merely the agent decanting the poisonous fluid from its bottle, which is the German war-soul, into the jug that is world humanity. In detailing those ingredients which combine to constitute the toxic formula of Germanism the author shall quote, wherever confirmation of his statements may be deemed advisable, principally from German sources. For after all no one can explain the German so well as he himself. He has made no secret of his character, his ambitions and his intentions. By his acts he has himself bared his heart and soul; by his words, by his own hand he will someday come to dig his own grave.
It is not to be wondered at that the nations of the Western world regard the avowed program of the German for world conquest and dominion with a great deal of amazement and incredulity. For such an idea is entirely alien to those basic principles and instincts of the western civilization which, painfully and gradually, arose out of the chaos of the past thousands of years. Such civilized nations regard individual rights, the sacredness of human life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as the virtues of mankind and itself, the individual States, as guarantor of those rights. And though, at one time or another during their existence nations may have sought political and economic adjustments, even territorial aggrandizement through force of arms, it must be noted that no Western nation has ever made such a religion of war,
According to her own writers, teachers and statesmen Germany has but one great reason for existing; that of achieving world-dominion! Since that is its highest aim, therefore, Germany constantly claims that it has every right to make free and liberal use of chicanery, deceit, intolerance, lust, persecution and oppression, in order to achieve that goal. Consequently such a perverted nation, such a State of human negation, views its vice as being the only true virtue in life, whereas to the Germans the virtues as they are known and may be practiced by the rest of the world are merely vices due to the latter's decay and degeneration! (note 3) As though there exists anywhere in the world a nation which can boast of degeneration in the same degree as Germany!
The primary reason which stirs German lust for world- dominion was best summarized by a German professor who declared that since Germany will never be able to understand the world, the latter must be conquered and reformed so that it will be able to conform to German thought ! (note 4)
It is just such mass megalomania, crass egoism intellectual aberrancy which stirred the demented brain of the German of yesterday to foment his wars; which animates the insane Nazi today in continuing those wars and which will, if the schizophrenic Teutons continue to exist, direct the policies and actions of any party in control of Germany in the future. For, to reiterate, the German idea of world-dominion and enslavement of its peoples is no political belief: it is a fierce and burning gospel of hate and intolerance, of murder and destruction and the unloosing of a sadistic blood lust. It is, in every literal sense, a savage and pagan religion which incites its worshipers first to a barbaric frenzy and then prompts them to vent their animal ferocity in the practice of every horrible, ruthless and unmentionable atrocity upon innocent men, women and children. Such are the true Germanic virtues! And the world will feel their sting so long as they continue to tolerate Germany and her peoples on the earth, for those Germanic traits are the same as those which, emanating from the German soul, animated the Germanic tribes of yore. We have but to examine the development of those tribes to perceive just to what extent within the German soul, the German ideal of world conquest and dominion really lies.
The German slave-holding tribes were noted for their unnaturally passionate love of war and destruction. Seeck, a noted German historian, writes with pride that the Germans of ancient days were notorious for their villainy and treachery and "their faithlessness became almost proverbial with the Romans," (note 5) who found that the Germans were adept at breaking a pact or a peace whenever it best suited them to so do.
Lamprecht, another German historian, recounts that even among themselves the Germans held no pledge valid! (note 6) Is it so much to be wondered at then that a nation whose people distrust one another, would hesitate at double-crossing any of its fellow nations?
Those ancient Germanic tribes, like the peoples of modern Germany, were unable to assimilate and accept the humane ideals, civilized aims and social aspirations of their neighbors as constituting the desirable, natural goal of life. "Warlike, as then, have the Germans ever remained!" (note 7)
We can understand, therefore, why to a German peace is not an objective but merely an interlude to be used by him to prepare for a war in which he can assuage the thirst for mass murder which burns in his soul. The German has absolutely no regard for life; there is no such expression in his language as "sacredness of human life."
It would be impossible, even between the covers of a thousand volumes, to list and describe the demonic brutalities practiced by the Germans upon innocent peoples, and though records of the last war are replete with numerous actual incidents illustrating the innate cruelty and viciousness of the Germans we have but to refer to one recent occurrence, the sinking of the British vessel "Lancastria" to realize just how and why the German earns his reputation for such cruelty and viciousness.
For assuredly, after sinking a vessel, the aviators of no other Western nation would have deliberately and cold-bloodedly dropped incendiary bombs on the oil-covered waters which surrounded the ship in order to roast alive the desperate women and children struggling below. But the German aviators did not hesitate to do so; it must have been with a perverted gleam in their mad eye that they boiled those women and children alive in oil! This from a "modern" and self-styled "cultured" nation! A nation whose press heralded such cannibalism as an illustrious example of German courage and heroism!
Such is the "Master-Race" of the world!
3. Organized Germanism
Germanism - the theory of a master race of Germans destined to enslave a weak world by force and brutality - had been an unvoiced doctrine of German belief since tribal days until the latter part of the last century when it reached its maturity by becoming fashioned into a vast and well-organized movement. Its astounding and ambitious program amalgamated all the major doctrines and beliefs of such German teachers, writers, statesmen and philosophers as Kant, Nietzsche, Hegel, von Bernhardi, Rohrbach, Treitschke and Spengler. And because the doctrine which it preached touched upon the very roots of the German soul, and embraced the fundamental tenets of the German intellect, the movement met with immediate and tremendously popular response.
In 1886 a Dr. Karl Peters convened a General German Congress in Berlin during the course of which all German national associations therein represented were merged into one group, a so-called German League. (note 13) Its program at first was vague and indefinite, and so much strife grew to exist among the various groups composing the League, that its dissolution seemed imminent until 1891 when Professor Ernst Hasse, a deputy in the Reichstag from Leipzig, became its president and took its management into his own hands.
The first step of Professor Hasse was to broadcast a widespread plea for help, appealing, as he said, "to the traditions of the German soul." His appeal met with such a favorable response that the League grew by leaps and bounds until it was not long before it was able to publish and maintain its own newspaper. In 1894 it changed its name to the Pan-German League (note 8) and proceeded to lay down an entire program of action relative to world-conquest and domination by Germany. This program of action for achieving such a goal was so replete with details, and its plan of procedure so comprehensive that it was adopted, almost unchanged, by the Nazis. For its motto the League used the words of the Great Elector: "Remember you are a German!"
During the interval in which the Pan-German League was organized, a German professor, Heinrich von Treitschke was being hailed throughout Germany as a new prophet. For years he had been spreading the fiery message of Germanism; it was a rabid admixture of war, hate, anti-Christism and destruction. It was the preaching of such doctrines which today has earned for Treitschke the great "honor" of being recognized by the Germans as the apostle of their ideology.
Heinrich von Treitschke was born in Dresden in 1834. After graduating from various German universities and spending some time in aimless drifting, he suddenly became consumed with the tortuous idea of a German unity founded by the sword. Feeling that the best method, in his day, of spreading such a belief was through teaching, he turned eagerly to that profession. His continual insistence on spreading Prussianism and its doctrine of the "mailed-fist rule" finally enabled him to settle in Berlin where he became established as a popular historian and publicist.
Treitschke was a war-monger and a "might makes right" advocate of the first rank. Possessing a natural gift of eloquence he held his students spellbound during his lectures on "conquer at all costs" for, according to his interpretation of Germany's development and history, it had to pursue such a course in order to spread itself beyond its boundaries. At first he set Europe as the area of Germany's "Lebenstraum" but, after the success of the German army in 1870 he enlarged and expanded upon his original declaration by stating that the world was Germany's to conquer and dominate; that through foisting war upon the world the German nation was destined to become the "super-state" of the universe, and to hold its people in thraldom. These teachings so appealed to the German character that Treitschke, like Hitler, soon captured the intellectuals as well as the masses of his day. His doctrines were spread throughout Germany by his many pupils until, eventually, practically every educated German of that day fell under his influence. Conceivably, he could not have inspired such a profound belief in such monstrous doctrines unless, in substance, they embraced aims and ideas already very definitely existing as inherent in the German character and innate in his soul. Many of those beliefs explain much of Germany's present actions. he could not have inspired such a profound belief in such monstrous doctrines unless, in substance, they embraced aims and ideas already very definitely existing as inherent in the German character and innate in his soul. Many of those beliefs explain much of Germany's present actions. he could not have inspired such a profound belief in such monstrous doctrines unless, in substance, they embraced aims and ideas already very definitely existing as inherent in the German character and innate in his soul. Many of those beliefs explain much of Germany's present actions.
According to Treitschke (note 9) the individual has no right of his own, but exists only for the State which has the exclusive right to use him as it wills. There is no other force except the will of the State, and war is the only and best way in which that will might be employed by it. A Germany so constituted can recognize no earthly power and "might makes right" only when a German wields the sword! There is no such thing to the German as "sacredness of human life" and war is sublime to him because in it he can "murder without passion." War is the best way in which Germany can enforce its will upon its neighbors, as well as being "the only cure for diseased nations."
Treitschke then treats with various methods to be employed by Germany in order to conquer and dominate the world.
"Germany," he writes, "must make it a duty to employ traitors in the enemy state for its own interest," even though, he adds, "every good German subject is a latent, and when opportunity arises, an active spy. "
Lying and deceit are encouraged as being a foundation stone for German policy and as for treaties and the like Treitschke advises that they are mere scraps of paper and urges that "they can and must be denounced by Germany whenever the promise they hold become unprofitable to her . " In such a case a treaty becomes automatically obsolete and "German honor" demands that it be broken! There is, he continues, no such thing as international law and order, no covenants between nations. As for justice, there is no such thing except at the point of a German sword.
All of Treitschke's teachings as well as the most pointed and precise interpretation ever made of the German ego is best summarized in a declaration in which he maintained that Germany could never have peace with the world because to the German mode of thought it "is a foreign world, which cannot be reformed, but can only be overthrown. " Thus the ideal of Germany becomes allied to the "rule of evil" in a common German effort to annihilate civilization!
The Pan-German League combined Treitschke's various doctrines into a program of action and issued, among its statutes, four main principles which lay down broadly its chief objectives. (note 10) They were:
1. To watch over and support all German national movements in all countries where Germans have to sustain a struggle in support of Germanism with the object of embracing and uniting all Germans on the globe.
2. To promote an active German policy in interests in Europe and across the seas and especially to further all colonial movements for practical purposes.
3. To treat and solve all questions bearing upon the bringing up of children and higher education in the Germanic sense.
4. To quicken patriotic self-consciousness of Germans, and to offer opposition to all movements antagonistic to national development.
In further explanation of the above statutes the League issued a manifesto declaring that "the fate of the Germans in Austria cannot be a matter of indifference to Germany; it cannot be a matter of indifference whether the Saxons or Swabians in Hungary are Magyarized, or the Germans in Switzerland or the Flemish in Belgium are Gallicized. Germans must actively support all movements in those countries in support of Germanism. Germanism across the seas must be preserved and fostered by every possible means. " (note 12)
We already know how well the German has heeded and obeyed such advice.
By 1900 there were some fifty various associations in existence all subservient to the Pan-German League. Ramified in character but identical in aim these groups, which ranged from military and naval cliques to sports leagues and banking institutions, were all fervidly pledged to preserve and foster Germanism in foreign lands. Politically too, the League gained considerable prestige. In 1903 no less than forty-three members of the Reichstag had already been initiated as members.
Branches of the League sprang up in major cities of the world. Of the two in the United States one was located in New York, the other in Texas. With the spread of its propaganda, the League scattered a large number of secret agents throughout the world for the purpose of supplying it with confidential reports relating to the gospel of Germanism. These agents were the forerunners of the present day fifth-columnists; it was their work which started to compilation of the notorious German "scrap-book" in which that government listed all its enemies, and enemies to the idea of a German-dominated world. To a nation such as Germany blackmail pales in insignificance to its other crimes. And so, with every passing hour, the members of the German League continued with their nefarious work which, teaching and enforcing the great common German ideal of world-enslavement, quickly became an integral part of the average German life and dreams. By 1905, the tenets of the Pangerman were already known to all. The initial work had been done. The vicious virus of Germanism had been injected into the life stream of the public, and the Germans awaited the epidemic which they felt must sooner or later infest the world.
As a matter of fact, the work and program as well as the propaganda which they spread had reached such a pitch that as far back as 1895 various German writers were already busy prophesying how and when the ideologic goal of German world-dominion would be attained ! These prophets were by no means few in number; there exists a large number of serious works by German authors in which the destiny of their country is elaborately worked out in full detail and the deification of Germanism as a world religion depicted.
From one such prophecy, written in 1900, we learn that "things about the year 1950 have begun to cause great uneasiness. All Germans have been united, Holland enters the German union; in Belgium the Flemings grow in power and because the French element causes increasing trouble, Germany is obliged to intervene. If France objects to a total absorption (of Belgium by Germany) then the French Walloon territory falls to France the Flemish portion to Germany. Maybe the French fight, in which case all Belgium will be annexed and incorporated in the German World Empire. " The author then goes on to discuss, rather vaguely, the case of Rance, Switzerland, and the Balkans, after which he cautions the Germans "by all means avoid a war with Russia, if possible." He completed the prophesy by stating that " in the year 1950 Great World Germany will possess a population of two hundred millions. Everybody is happy because all the Germans are now united and are ruling the world! "(Note 14)
This prophesy did not, by any means, appear fantastic to the German of that day. Actually it was considered as altogether too conservative because more radical leaders had set the establishment of the "German World" at a much earlier date than 1950. Writing in 1895 one ambitious German predicted that Der Tag would arrive sometime in 1915. Here is a summary of his augury:
Around about 1915 the whole world starts trembling. Two great States take action in self-defense, America and Russia. America proclaims aloud the doctrine of "Pan-America." Russia concludes customs treaties with Turkey, Persia and China. Great Britain, Pan-America and the Pan-Slavonic Russian Colossus threaten to overwhelm the sixteen states of Europe. At this juncture Germany intervenes and rising to the occasion, sets to work to prepare army and navy for the coming struggle.
Then follows a description of the war and a few miscellaneous vagaries after which the writer continues:
The Junkers roll in money. Meanwhile Pan-America has become a source of great uneasiness to Germany for Germanism is threatened in South America. The United States, declining to give way, the German, Italian and French navies mobilize and set sail for America. The American navy is destroyed. On land the German troops made short work of the American mercenaries. Under the brilliant leadership of the German Leader, the Germans were everywhere victorious. On sea the German ships, guns and men showed their great superiority over the English who were regularly defeated. German discipline, courage and skill made the German navy invincible. The British navy was destroyed. Invaded, the English offered but a half-hearted resistance. The German and Italian soldiers seized London. England and America were defeated. Peace was concluded. (note 15)
Concerning the terms of such a peace, the writer declared that:
... Germany took Mexico, Guatemala, British Honduras, all Brazil south of the Amazon, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia, Peru and northern Chile. France took Brazil north of the Amazon, British Guiana, Venezuela, Columbia and Ecuador. Italy took what was left of South America, including the Argentine. The West Indies were divided between Germany and France. Gibraltar was restored to Spain, Malta given to Italy, Cyprus to Turkey. The English had to pay an enormous war indemnity. There was great discontent in England because the entire British navy was held by the Germans as a guarantee of payment. All England's Suez Canal shares were confiscated and distributed among the victorious powers. The Kimberley diamond mines were seized by Germany and all English and American capital invested in Brazil and South America was transferred to German hands.
Thus England and America are humbled and the rule of the German Mailed-Fist secured! Maps, circulated soon after this prophesy was made public, illustrate the division of South America; the northern half and Central America being portrayed thereon as German colonies.
Still another writer, predicting a war somewhat similar to the one mentioned above finished his prophesy by stating that "after completely humbling England, the time had arrived for Germany to settle with the United States, but upon German mobilization United States yielded to all her demands without striking a blow! " (note 16)
Though many of these "prophecies" vary in detail the reader is aware of the one outstanding fact which pervades them all; that the deification of Germanism cannot be accomplished without the fall and humiliation of both England and the United States. This was declared to be a fact by Dr. Paul Semassa, a German Professor who, in 1902, stated that Germany must be prepared to combat the Britons and Americans; after defeating these last of the free peoples, Germany could then rule the world in any way she pleased!
In 1904 one observer, taking serious note of all such German prophecies and desires wrote an envisioned analysis in which he forewarned that "the doctrine of Germanism may quite well become a national ideal and kindle a very dangerous spirit. For Anglo-Saxondom the lesson it teaches is obvious. Readiness is all. Let England and the United States be prepared at all times successfully to meet the Teutonic onrush if ever it should come. " (note 17)
4. Germanism Abroad
I. United States
The task of spreading the heathenish cult of Germanism in foreign lands was delegated to the General School Association, an organization maintained by the Pan-German League. Beginning its operations in 1881 that association, existing today as the notorious German Ausland Organization (AO), was the first to prepare the ground and develop and test the tactics which are being used today by all German fifth-columnists.
Of all the countries in which he spread his evil doctrine, it was only in the United States that the German had any doubts about the successful retention and development of Germanism. So much so, in fact, that Professor Hasse, in one of his speeches before the German Reichstag declared that the "grave of Germanism lies in America" and the spade which will dig that grave is the Monroe Doctrine. But not all exponents of Germanism, however, felt so forlornly about their chances of successfully propagating Germanism in this country, and they made many early attempts to reorganize and strengthen their movements here.
In effect, the Germans did not achieve any notable success in their work. The Americans of German origin or descent either had no interest in preserving his German identity in contradistinction to his pride in being labeled an "American" or else, because he had fled his native land precisely on account of such malignant beliefs and persecutions, he retained no desire or inclination to see those evils flourish in a land of freedom which he had come to adopt as his own.
German fury, stirred to fever-pitch heights by the apoplectic rantings of German leaders expressed itself against the United States many times. The first of these crises occurred at the time of the Spanish-American war when Germany tried to raise a coalition of nations to oppose our stand. Next it was Germany's plan to effect a European Customs Union against the United States, a step which was immediately followed by attempts first to annex Samoa and then to break the force of the Monroe Doctrine by testing it in Venezuela. All these attempts failed principally because of England's refusal to act in collusion with Germany against an independent United States, as well as England's firm acceptance and advocacy of the Monroe Doctrine as a major and permanent policy of our country.
Chagrined at her failures to impress her will upon the United States Germany decided to try new tactics. She adopted a policy of "taking it easy"; a policy which she hated because it was one antagonistic to her natural ideals of arrogance, brute force and aggression, and contrary to the spirit of her war-soul. Such inherent hatred of Germany to adhere to a sane course of international procedure which takes into account human rights and decencies, was well summarized by one of her most able and popular political writers, Dr. Paul Rohrbach who exclaimed:
Does any one think that Germany likes saying nice things to the United States, or that they are the outpourings of a loving heart? She only says them because Germany must eradicate the suspicions with which Americans regard her policy. (note 18)
Because of their common language and their humanistic philosophies the Germans regarded both England and the United States as dire enemies of his Super-state and, therefore, his main function as a trouble-maker in the latter country expressed itself in attempts to drive a wedge between it and England. Part of his hatred for England was directed toward it for its "not feeling ashamed" to openly recognize the Monroe Doctrine. Again and again reference to the Doctrine creeps up in connection with the origin and development of Germanism in the United States.
In 1903 Johannes Volert declared that "the Monroe Doctrine is indefensible. It is direct impertinence, and all the more so as America is lacking the means to enforce its application." (note 19)
This perpetual opposition of Germany to the Monroe Doctrine as well as its continual defiance of it was best delineated in an article printed at the beginning of this century by the Journal of Commerce in answer to the German claim that the Monroe Doctrine was "an empty pretension . " The purport of that message is so fraught with vigor and truth, its every word so fresh and alive and currently apropos, that it deserves quotation here in full.
The last German professor (Mommsen) to fall foul of the Monroe Doctrine seems to show the usual Teutonic incapacity to understand what it means. He assumes that this "empty pretension" on the part of the United States is to control the destiny of the South American nations, and to keep Europeans out of them. He cannot see that the United States seeks no predominance, but only objects to European predominance. The German mind fails to see that our policy is to leave South American countries independent, to develop on their own lines; and all we ask of Europe is that it shall leave them independent, and not undertake to appropriate their territory or suppress their sovereignty. The United States wishes South America to do its own controlling.
Failing constantly in their attempts to drive a wedge between the two English-speaking countries Germans were instructed by their headquarters to try to create a force of their own with which to combat Americans. In reviewing this angle of attack, Professor Hasse stated that the only way in which he could envision a future for Germanism in the United States was for the Germans to "so organize and educate the German element in that country that political power will finally fall into its lap. " And in order to do so, the professor advises that "Germans must abandon all attempts to take sides on Democratic and Republican matters, and form themselves into a national political party." Another professor, Muensterberg, agreed with Hasse by adding that the Germans should build a State within a State, in the United States. Still another German writer added that the best way for the Germans to form a political party of their own was to infect the American, especially those of Irish extraction, with the German virus of Anglophobia. The recommendation was also made that the Germans appoint a confidential agent in Washington who might keep in touch with the (American) government and influence it! (Note 20)
All these wild notions of Germanism produced a great deal of agitation in this country but the German was not able to maintain that any real progress had been made by his movement in the United States. It is only since the rise of present Germany and its "exported agitators" as well as hired spies and bribed sycophants that the nightmare of Germanism has been forced through coercion and terror down the throats of a slight handful of Americans of German descent.
II. South America
German designs in South America, particularly towards Brazil, as well as the underhanded methods they employed in trying to further her interests there have never been kept entirely secret. Long before the advent of the present German government, Germans had always covetously regarded South America as a land which someday would belong to them. That to pursue such a course might bring them face to face with the power of the United States was an eventuality they foresaw and for which they prepared. They felt no uncertainty as to their ultimate success against the United States; in scores of books prominent German authors have time and again made the forecast that the United States would, through fear, yield to the Germans without striking a blow or else, would capitulate in a short war.
Such warnings, persistently expressed by German writers, teachers, and statesmen were fully clarified in the statement of Professor Schulz-Gaevernitz to the effect that:
The more Germany is condemned to an attitude of passive resistance towards the United States, the more emphatically must she defend her interests in Central and South America. For this purpose we need a fleet capable not only of coping with the miserable forces of the South American states, but powerful enough to cause Americans to think twice before making any at- tempt to apply the Monroe Doctrine in South America. (note 21)
German colonists to South America were encouraged to preserve their nationality, their language, their German ways of life, and their interest in their "mother country." Thus there came to exist, especially in Brazil, states within states. The methods the Germans used in Brazil were those applied in strict accordance with the principles expounded by Dr. Kapff in his brochure on the "German Schools." In that work is found the cautionary advice that "Germans in South Brazil had better become Brazilian citizens as that is the quickest and surest way to obtain political power." Dr. Kapff also forewarns his countrymen that:
... the danger of Germanism in South America comes from North America, and it is not only a question of commercial interest. Is Germany to stand idly by if America sets about the task of Americanizing that continent? Germany cannot; she must proclaim, urbi et orbi, that she is determined to maintain her rights in South America. And Brazil holds out the most buoyant hope for the German and the spread of Germanism.
Dr. Kapff's declarations were amplified by Professor Gustav Schmoller who emphatically asserted that "at all costs a German country must grow up in the twentieth century in Brazil," (note 22) for in South America Germans will found a new Germany, "which shall prove shall a blessing to the old country, and stand as a model to the whole world! " (note 23)
Dr. Paul Rohrbach's explanation of German intentions in Brazil were even more arrogantly expressed. He stated that:
... although the United States may possibly prevent the acquirement of South American territory by Germany it cannot prevent the creation of a state within a state, and that when the Germans have finally accomplished that deed, they would rule the roost in Brazil and rule over the inferior peoples of that country.
But propaganda must be made in Germany to popularize the idea, and every good German must assist in the work because a promising future for Germany lies in her South American colonies, and to attain those ends Germans must work quietly, jointly and firmly - underground .
Professor Wolf, coinciding with that view expressed his opinion that "South America for the German, is the land of the future, for that land holds greater promise for the Germans than Europe or Africa."
Hence, we find that hand in hand with her march toward world-dominion Germany has always deemed it her mission to establish, by force or by trickery, great South American colonies. As she does today, Germany has always laughed at any actual resistance from the Untied States, consistently declaring our country to be nothing more than, to use the words of a German, "a heterogeneous melange of crass egoistic Jingoists having no pure racial blood to build upon "and therefore a land and a people to be easily vanquished, at any time, by the great German supermen.
Germany tried often to suit her words with action. Prince Solms-Braunfels made a real effort to found a German colony in Texas as an American outpost of Germanism and, though he failed, the idea which prompted his action always persisted in the German mind as a possibility fraught with great promise of eventual fulfillment.
The Pan-German League heeded the advice of its leaders to labor in partial silence in South America and so kept unusual secrecy about their work on that continent. Little by little they sought to honeycomb those parts of South America which seemed favorable to Germanism by establishing branch leagues and to reticulate those regions with confidential agents who carried on their work disguised as travelers, teachers or diplomatic agents. From time to time they reported their progress to the Central Association in Germany. The startling disclosure was only recently made that the German consulates too, had given their aid, serving as hypodermics through which the malignant bacilli of Germanism was being syringed into the blood stream of the South American peoples.
In his work on Chile, Dr. Unfold advised German settlers in South America "to send their children to Germany to be educated in a fitting German spirit" and that then they should be sent back to propagate and disseminate the animus of the German war-soul. "The time will assuredly come," he encouraged, "when Germany, during the confusion caused by some international conflagration, will have the opportunity to acquire colonial territory in South America." (note 11)
Records and facts, whose truths are every minuet being sustained by current events, make it obvious that German policies in South America, her aims and methods too, have all been, for a long time, clearly, persistently and publicly pronounced by her leaders. To the German his aims in South America are merely some additional "must items" on a long list of German-planned depredations against humanity and civilization.
Here, quoted ad verbatim, are the words of one observer of German ambitions in South America who, writing his analysis almost two score years ago, declared:
Whether Germany's aim in South America is obtainable without friction is something which the future alone can decide. The future of South America must depend largely upon the Monroe Doctrine and the navy which is behind it. There will come a time, not so remote in the future, when the economic penetration of Brazil and other South American states by the Germans may lead to political supremacy which, if questioned, must be abandoned or contended for. Conceivably, the issue may be a fighting one. Though Germans rave against the Monroe Doctrine as an empty pretention, that doctrine nevertheless is destined to bar Germany's way. Already there are unmistakable signs that Americans have become cognizant of such German aims and ambitions in South America. On the creation of a great American fleet, as on the solidarity of England and the United States, the fate of South America depends. If America is to cry "Hands off!" they must have the power to support the words. (note 17)
III. Europe
Austria:
True Germanism, being as it is a purely primitive paganism with some modern "refinements" finds that it can express itself best by committing truly barbaric and bestial acts of violence against innocent civilized peoples. Thus, if Germanism were ever to prevail upon this earth, we can be sure that every step would be taken - though few indeed are these steps which the Germans have not already taken! - to reawaken every dormant animal instinct and vicious trait in man.
Thus it has been a chief aim of the German to eradicate each and every one of the three principal religions from the earth. However, the German was practical enough to realize that he could not successfully combat all these religions at one time with any hope of emerging supreme. But since their extinction was absolutely necessary to the propagation of the German dogma of hate and destruction, the Germans conceived their now infamous and oft-tried trick of pitting first the believers in one religion against those of another until, at a single coup, they could deliver the final knock-out blow against the single remaining adversary. It was in Austria that they first tested the efficiency of their scheme, a test which, at that time, actually constituted organized high treason against that country.
Germanism had its birth in Austria as an organized movement founded and headed by an Austrian statesman, one Schoenerer, in 1878. Its activity was rather limited in scope until 1898 when Schoenerer joined with Hasse; from that time on the Pan-German League in Berlin became the head of the movement in Austria, and it proceeded at once to establish permanent bases of operation in that country.
First a plan of attack was decided upon. Hasse and Schoenerer agreed that if Germany was ever to rule over Austria the latter country must first be forced to break with Rome (Roman Catholicism). In order to achieve this objective the leaders decided upon a roundabout course of action. They therefore first created an artificially stimulated pseudo-religious revivalist movement having anti-Semitism as its primary and immediate purpose.
The German Hasse found some renegade, so-called Catholics (though such men were no more Catholics in spirit than those men of any religion who, hiding behind a pulpit of a church, rail against God and preach hatred and intolerance) members of the leading Catholic Party, who agree to act as leaders of such a movement. It was not long thereafter that a frightful wave of anti-Semitic persecution began to sweep over Austria, continuing unabated in intensity, until Schoenerer and Hasse felt that a sufficiently high degree of agitation and terrorism had been reached. Thereupon they turned their efforts against the Catholic Party and in turn, started a rabid anti-Catholic, "free-from-Rome" movement of their own, Schoenerer declaring that "the chains which tie us to a Church hostile to Germanism must be broken ! " The "
Though the complete success of this plan was not achieved, it did have a salutary effect; that of establishing and proving the audacity and ruthless aggressiveness of the German.
Czecho-Slovakia:
Notwithstanding the fierce resistance which met them and their ideas in Bohemia, the Germans were able to organize various ancillary associations of their League, as well as to maintain their own press in that country. They were further aided in their work by the importation of German clergymen, agitators and school-masters all of whom played leading roles in the struggle to spread Germanism throughout that brave land of free thought.
The vile work of the Germans was not easy; they were met with a bold and determined resistance. The Czechs fought the demented Germans with that fierce and patriotic intensity characteristic of their old hero, Hus, whose famous motto, "Nothing German!" became their rallying call and slogan. In fact so strong was the Czech resistance to Germanism that by 1900 leading Germans were ready to declare that the fate of their movement lay in Bohemia, and depended on the outcome of their struggle in that country.
Besides attempting to spread their doctrines, the Germans did everything possible to interfere with the establishment of the Czech language in Bohemia.
It is to the redounding credit of Czecho-Slovakia, that even before it had became a nation it had already fought alone against German dominion; left to its own devices, it would have never have suffered surrender.
Holland:
A decade before the last world war it was noted as a fact that the one State which Germany dreaded was Russia; the two States which she would have liked to see at odds with each other were Britain and the United States, and the one State she would really have liked to absorb was Holland, a free and democratic country which hated Germanism and all its narrow spiritual and political principles. Nevertheless, the German pursued his work in that country with that fanatic stubbornness so imbedded in his character.
In 1898 a General Dutch League was formed in Holland primarily for the purpose of spreading the Dutch language in South Africa. Not meeting success they appealed to the Pan-German League for aid and found themselves, shortly thereafter, to be entirely supported by that German organization. With their aptitude for "protecting" and "adopting" countries, the members of the League early regarded Holland as an essential and integral part of Germany and declared that if they were not able to secure Holland by "peaceful persuasion," they must do so by force.
In 1901 a German writer stated that in case of war "Germany could not be expected to regard the Dutch ports as neutral and refrain from making use of them." (note 25) Writing in the Deutsche Zeitschrift in 1901, Kurt von Strautz declared that "It is impossible that outposts of Germanism like the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, and Austria remain permanently outside the boundaries of Germany."
At the same time another German asserted that Germany would do well to secure possession of the Dutch colonies so as to acquire naval bases and additional overseas trade routes, while another suggested that the Dutch colonies were threatened by England, the United States and Japan, and therefore must be "protected" by Germany!
Though the League did manage to succeed in stirring up a great deal of mischief and agitation in Holland, Germanism was unable to achieve any marked success in that land so noted for its great intellectual freedom, a freedom which did not exist even among the highest class of Germans who, at the time, were labeling the Dutch, "Low Germans." (note 26)
The Dutch wished to remain Dutch. They felt too strong and independent in their own freedom to need or desire the gangster-like protection of the brutish, uncivilized German.
Belgium:
Belgium has never been considered as anything but a negligible factor in German plans for world-dominion. The German felt that because of its size Belgium could easily, and at any time, be forced to bow to the German will. However, he did not neglect Belgium entirely and, as a matter of fact, he even adopted somewhat different tactics from those which he employed in other lands.
Instead of trying his utmost to sponsor the use of the German language in Belgium, the German believed that his success in that country would depend upon his ability to popularize Flemish language in contradistinction to French. By thus creating a sense of Flemish nationality in Belgium the German hoped to prevent the spread of French influence and so drive a wedge between France and Belgium.
However, the German was regarded with great suspicion by the Belgian populace and therefore he was forced to carry on most of his work through underground channels. He failed to make much headway. But this failure did not dim his hopes for future realization. In fact he was so certain that the seeds being planted would some day result in fruition that, back in 1901 he had already, with habitual high-and-mighty German arrogance, renamed Belgium German "West Mark."
Denmark:
As with Belgium, the German felt his task in Denmark to be such an easy one that he did not even bother to use any "finesse" in his attempts to saturate the Danish people with his Germanism, and so, instead of trying to at least render the idea "palatable" to the Danes, he aimed at ramming it down their throats.
Nothing came of such attempts. The Danes might be invaded by German arms; they would never fall victim to what the German calls "Ideals." For the Danes are an independent, civilized people with no inclination to be dragged back a thousand years to savage barbarism.
Switzerland:
The work of the German League in Switzerland was impeded by its own tactless and stupid blunders. The propagators of Germanism, past and present, have always failed in estimating the local or national patriotism of any peoples by completely undervaluing it.
When, therefore, the German early and loudly proclaimed that Switzerland was merely an annex of Germany; that it had no culture and could maintain no freedom of its own, he was met with the most intense antagonism on the part of the majority of Swiss.
The Swiss have always burned with the desire to remain forever free, neutral and independent and everywhere the German was met with the firm declaration that "We Swiss are no Germans!"
And what more vivid testimony to that fact can be offered than the moral to be gleaned from the story of William Tell, and admitted German Classic written by a German author!
Scandinavia:
Of all countries in continental Europe, the German has always been the least liked in Norway and Sweden, and though from time to time pro-German voices were raised, the German League enjoyed little success there.
Instead of Germans it was Norwegians and Swedes of a "German character" who paid allegiance to the German ideal and in tracing the work of such traitors it is not to be wondered at, now, that the Germans were able to find a Quisling in Norway .
Professor Samassa, stating that the future struggle for existence would be between Germans on the one side and Britons and Americans on the other remarked that "Sweden will converge towards Germany the more Germany grows in power, and it is therefore a German interest to preserve the independence of Sweden. In such a way this outland will eventually be absorbed by Germany. " (...) "
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
Nonsense Putin's absolute biggest life time event was the fall of the SU. And the collaps of it was internal. A melted totalitarian system. Putin has always been explicit that this aim was to reverse this, make Russia great again.
The meddling with Ukraine in 2014 and now the declaration of war in 2022 is clearly a consequence of this. That's the bigger picture.
And of course there is a lot to say about corruption in Ukraine and the ethnic line of Ukrainian nationalists.
But that does not alter the fact that the aim of most Ukrainians, and I certainly of the elected government, was to join the West, not Russia. Putin has tried to make this reversible with war and violence. These spheres of influence are not given (no natural law) they are seen so (or not). That is intentional.
And you Riverman 'understand' this because you live in the world of spheres of influence. Of the 'ethnicities' with preferably a large fence around it (this is mines! watch the dog). I don't share that, that's why you understand Putin and I don't.
That man should have built up his country instead of peering his country into a nationalistic, military KGB state.
Scholz said that "only Putin is to be blamed for this war" - ignoring facts:Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
https://activegroup.com.ua/2022/03/1...ean-countries/
^^^
Hitler enjoyed similar support from the German society in the 1930s-40s.
Even in 1946-1947, when Americans carried out opinion polls, the majority of Germans said: "Nazism was a good idea but badly implemented".
Even after the total defeat, most Germans continued to support the Nazis.
Should his policy to make "Russia even smaller"? I mean what are you talking about? The point is, he tried to move further West, associate himself more with the Western standards and organisations, together with Ukraine, but they just blocked Russa - "no, you not." And that was before he became more authoritarian, that was before all that. He had to learn it the hard way: The USA want no strong Russia, democratic or not. He better defends Russian interests with the means at hand, than trusting any lie of the USA any more. That's what people like Biden taught him. You probably have no idea of what happened in all his years in office, but I looked into it, into the record of "Western : Russian relations". Its just so one sided, its unbelievable that he even tried to apply to the West so subordinate, for so long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
I do agree, 100 percent, for those Ukrainians which wanted that, back in 2014. But you see, back then, and still, many Eastern areas of Ukraine might see it differently. And its about those.Quote:
But that does not alter the fact that the aim of most Ukrainians, and I certainly of the elected government, was to join the West, not Russia.
The Western Ukrainians should just go, turn West if they want, its their right and choice. But they shouldn't take the borders for granted which being the result of a cobbled together federal state in the Soviet Union. That's the problem. Russia was very moderate, just looking for Crima and Donbas in the narrowest sense, and that was a fair deal. No reason to start a war about it, but Ukraine did refuse any political, diplomatic, peaceful solution. That was the main problem.
And once again, since you care for what the Ukrainian people want: They wanted peace. They voted for Selenski for mainly two reasons:
- his massive oligarchic-US media support, which skewed the elections
- his promise to make peace, to reconcile with Russia
Did he do that? No, he followed the oligarchs, especially the financial of the Azov units, Kolomoyskyi, which is a Russian-hater, and the US services! He betrayed the Ukrainian voters! If he would have tried to come to peaceful terms with Russia, this war would have never happened.
He tried, but the USA didn't allow him to do that, so he had to adapt, for the interest of Russia. Just learn the history of the relations, and what he tried, what was denied, how the West betrayed and humiliated the Russians, time and time again. Its a dangerous game, being now played by this senile Biden, which is behind this war, was behind this war all the time. He owed the Ukrainian regime and oligarchs a lot, because they kept their mouth shut, humiliated and blocked Trump. And he always was anti-Russian, he wants a violent regime change in Russia and buy up Ukraine. That's his "democratic plan" for the region.Quote:
That man should have built up his country instead of peering his country into a nationalistic, military KGB state.
That's most dangerous, irresponsible behaviour. He pushed the Ukrainians into this war, jeopardises their state.
You think Putin should just have watched while the Ukrainians arrested his personal friends, banned the Russian media, persecuted Russian activists, banned the Russian administrative language, built up this "anti-Russia" armed up and bought up by the USA? Just watch while this happens? Leave his allies, friends and the ethnic Russians alone? Let them being bombed and expelled from Donbas? While the sanctions still stay active, until he even have to give up on Crimea? Probably even longer, because they want to bring Russia down anyway? This shouldn't care him?
Seriously? You might say so, I don't. That's the kind of aggressive-provocative policy, which the Ukraine and USA made, which is just inacceptable, regardless of where they do it.
Haven't you heard that Zelensky himself hinted at resurrecting the old Rzeczpospolita?Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
And Ukrainians (as well as anti-Lukashenko Belarusians) themselves want this to happen:
https://1-ua--reporter-com.translate...en&_x_tr_hl=pl
Why would you oppose a voluntary unification of nations who want to repair history's misfortunes and reunite again?
Remember - the Rzeczpospolita did not dissolve voluntarily (like Czechoslovakia). It was destroyed by external forces.
We are not like Yugoslavia, and we are not like Czechoslovakia. It is a different story here. Foreign powers divided us.
^^^ Link to a discussion forum of anti-Lukashenko Belarusians below:
https://www-bramaby-com.translate.go...en&_x_tr_hl=pl
Even my next-door neighbours here in Poznan are Ukrainians. We have so many Ukrainians in Poland already that it will no longer make a difference if our countries unite into one Federation or not. And if Russia wins this war and annexes Ukraine, many more millions of Ukrainians will flee to Poland - so we will still have a de facto union, but with just our portion of territory (so we will be much more crowded). And Ukrainian partisans fighting guerilla war against Russian occupation in the forests of Ukraine, will recruit themselves from the Diaspora in Poland.
That's not the issue.Quote:
Should his policy to make "Russia even smaller"? I mean what are you talking about? The point is, he tried to move further West, associate himself more with the Western standards and organisations, together with Ukraine, but they just blocked Russa - "no, you not." And that was before he became more authoritarian, that was before all that. He had to learn it the hard way: The USA want no strong Russia, democratic or not. He better defends Russian interests with the means at hand, than trusting any lie of the USA any more. That's what people like Biden taught him. You probably have no idea of what happened in all his years in office, but I looked into it, into the record of "Western : Russian relations". Its just so one sided, its unbelievable that he even tried to apply to the West so subordinate, for so long.
To build up Russia as it is already a task enough. No they have thrown money into the military, expansive missiles...All to restore the old glory in terms of sphere of influence... Russian interest are not a give fact they are created. And they are created by the Kremlin. Clearly ultranationalist (even combined with Russian Orthodoxy etc). I guess outside the Kremlin nearly no one wants a strong Putin autocratic regime. If Russia had developed like the Baltics I would see no single problem.....
And know you are the seer with uncovered inside information?
Quote:
I do agree, 100 percent, for those Ukrainians which wanted that, back in 2014. But you see, back then, and still, many Eastern areas of Ukraine might see it differently. And its about those.
The Western Ukrainians should just go, turn West if they want, its their right and choice. But they shouldn't take the borders for granted which being the result of a cobbled together federal state in the Soviet Union. That's the problem. Russia was very moderate, just looking for Crima and Donbas in the narrowest sense, and that was a fair deal. No reason to start a war about it, but Ukraine did refuse any political, diplomatic, peaceful solution. That was the main problem.
And once again, since you care for what the Ukrainian people want: They wanted peace. They voted for Selenski for mainly two reasons:
- his massive oligarchic-US media support, which skewed the elections
- his promise to make peace, to reconcile with Russia
Did he do that? No, he followed the oligarchs, especially the financial of the Azov units, Kolomoyskyi, which is a Russian-hater, and the US services! He betrayed the Ukrainian voters! If he would have tried to come to peaceful terms with Russia, this war would have never happened.
The Kremlin did everything but litter lay everything to fire up the Russian minorities in the Ukraine. Because of the restore agenda of Putin. This had such long arms that even in my country Russian agents paid the right wing populist to set up a referendum about the Ukraine etc.Quote:
He tried, but the USA didn't allow him to do that, so he had to adapt, for the interest of Russia. Just learn the history of the relations, and what he tried, what was denied, how the West betrayed and humiliated the Russians, time and time again. Its a dangerous game, being now played by this senile Biden, which is behind this war, was behind this war all the time. He owed the Ukrainian regime and oligarchs a lot, because they kept their mouth shut, humiliated and blocked Trump. And he always was anti-Russian, he wants a violent regime change in Russia and buy up Ukraine. That's his "democratic plan" for the region.
That's most dangerous, irresponsible behaviour. He pushed the Ukrainians into this war, jeopardises their state.
You think Putin should just have watched while the Ukrainians arrested his personal friends, banned the Russian media, persecuted Russian activists, banned the Russian administrative language, built up this "anti-Russia" armed up and bought up by the USA? Just watch while this happens? Leave his allies, friends and the ethnic Russians alone? Let them being bombed and expelled from Donbas? While the sanctions still stay active, until he even have to give up on Crimea? Probably even longer, because they want to bring Russia down anyway? This shouldn't care him?
Seriously? You might say so, I don't. That's the kind of aggressive-provocative policy, which the Ukraine and USA made, which is just inacceptable, regardless of where they do it.
That was fare away in The Hague let alone the thing they did to fire up the conflict in the Donbas itself.
And Zelenski and Kolomosiky is indeed a thing. It's clear to me that connections of Kolomoisky were crucial to become president. In that sense is the Ukraine still not democratic. And it's no wonder for an EU membership did many still hesitate!
Nevertheless the relationship your assume....Kolomoisky had already face US sanction a year ago.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...or-kolomoisky/
And basically again that anschluss mentality of you a dictator with certain interest comes along...and al you can imagine is that you must adapt. For the hail of the (ethnic) megalomania of a dictator and his sphere of influence? No Zelenskiy did not adapt he fought back. Bravo.
No Riverman Zilenski is not like Schuschnigg! And that signs him.
The peoples/nations of "between-Germany-and-Russia-land" for the most part want to mind their own business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallicanus
We don't want neither Russia nor the West to interfere in our internal affairs too much. We are our own thing.
Rememeber that Poland has been quite West-sceptical during the last several years. The fact that we are anti-Russian and pro-Ukrainian does not change our Euro-scepticism.
Ah right, you are totally pro-war and against a diplomatic solution with Russia. Then don't talk about Russian military actions again, because they being caused by the total unwillingness of the Selenski regime to negotiate, while they attacked and persecuted Russian people and activists, attacked Donbas and wanted to expel the pro-Russian people there. You are fully on the side of a state which wants to force people under its control, no different than Russia, just without the ethnic legitimation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
That's the war you get with that reckless and aggressive behaviour, totally unnecessary. But if the regime in Kiev wants it, they should at least not drag the rest of Europe into it, because they started it themselves.
Agreed and no problem with that. But Eastern Ukraine and Crimea is not "an own thing", its too Russian for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Right now all what matters is who has better armed forces. And it seems that Ukrainians are winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
When the Ukrainian army counterattacks and recaptures Crimea and Donbas, these people will have to adapt and become Ukrainian patriots.
Europeans lack military strength so they will be a prey to outside military powers, however enlightened their social values may be.
Take your pick...the USA, Russia or China.
Only Britain (which rejected the EU in 2016) and France have nuclear capability.
I agree with Tomenable that the Germans need to be watched and are only behaving well because the USA is watching them.
The idea of some type of military or strategic link-up beween Poland, Czechia, Slovakia and the Baltic States including Finland is the best bet for the European heartland.
After all, Riverman, you wrote that there is no big difference between Russians and Ukrainians.
So surely it will be easy for them to become Ukrainian. Identifying with the winner is quite cool.
Everything I learned during international law of armed conflict classes at uni turned out to be false in practice.
So I no longer believe that anyone, anywhere, actually takes this seriously! All wars are very lawless and brutal.
The only thing which matters is who has more and/or stronger divisions.
Nobody also cares about the self-determination of peoples principle, it remains a dead letter of the law in practice.
^^^
Don't be delusional idealists and don't believe that we (21st century humans) are anything better than our cavemen ancestors during wartime.
On a biological level, we are unfortunately still wired to be tribal. We haven't evolved as fast as our values have changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallicanus
Believing in these enlightened social values = you are unaware of the biological reality like Dodo Birds when getting shot.
We educate children in this Dodo bubble world. Then they confront what they learned from textbooks with reality, and it's very different.
Then some swallow the sour pill and adapt to the reality, while others share the fate of the Dodo.
This can be also extrapolated from individuals to nations - some live inside of their Dodo bubbles.
I think Poland, Czechia and the Baltic nations need to combine to counter the decrepitude of western Europe and the big Russian Mafia-Empire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
At least you three now admitted that peace and human rights are not your primary concern. Its anti-Russian, probably even anti-German sentiment and policy, that's all. Thank you.
A diplomatic solution? Pardon me who invaded the Ukraine on 26-2?Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
The point is that Russia is meanwhile with at least plan B....(if not C or D). So nu urge to negotiate because based on which position...? So they will hammer through.
For Zelenski, who already stated that they member ship of NATO/ neutrality is negotiable, nevertheless they are in a defending position. I know your option for Zelenski would immediately be the Schuschnigg!/ Anschluss option immediately deliverance of the keys, yes mister Putin no mister Putin of course mister Putin, yes Kyiv is your cradle, the holy Lebensraum of Rus, white flag!
I'm convinced that the average Russian is beter of with Russia in his current form(no not as big as it used to be...) but with a decent living. I guess they aren't interested if the Ukraine would give a tribute to the big leader or not....That's more the exclusive lust for power of the Kremlin. Average Ivan don't give a damn. Now he has to face dead soldiers, excessive expensions to a war and an economic collaps. Donbas conquered? But moral and financial bankrupt?
And about the Donbas and who killed who, this is one big wasp sting....so not easy to blame one or another, action is reaction etc. etc.