Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tomenable

But the point was mainly about lower quality ingredients - prices were only a secondary concern. Products produced by Western companies for export to Eastern Europe have lower quality ingredients than the same products produced for local markets.

---

and? perhaps this is because otherwise they would be too expensive for eastern european countries. perhaps there is also a different mentality about food in eastern europe so higher quality ingredients are not valued as much as they are in western europe. after all, people do not have to buy those products if they do not want to and if they have better alternatives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ailchu

and? perhaps this is because otherwise they would be too expensive for eastern european countries. perhaps there is also a different mentality about food in eastern europe so higher quality ingredients are not valued as much as they are in western europe. after all, people do not have to buy those products if they do not want to and if they have better alternatives.

---

Or perhaps you still want to poison us but now with food instead of Zyklon B ???

Anyway, there is more and more awareness to buy only locally made products.

Nutritional ethnocentrism I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tomenable

Or perhaps you still want to poison us but now with food instead of Zyklon B ???

Anyway, there is more and more awareness to buy only locally made products.

Nutritional ethnocentrism I guess.

---

there are cheap lower quality products and more expensive higher quality products in every west euroepan country too. those who can afford it will buy the more of the latter and obviously those who can't afford it won't. that is the case in literally every single country of the world nowadays.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tomenable

Or perhaps you still want to poison us but now with food instead of Zyklon B ???

Anyway, there is more and more awareness to buy only locally made products.

Nutritional ethnocentrism I guess.

---

Its not poisonous, its just different ingredients and there is a tendency to produce cheaper. I think its because they thought that Eastern Europeans want the labels, the products, but don't know the difference in quality anyway. Its simple Capitalist rip-off. No other intentions or conspiracies.

As for the rest: Putin's war is a Russian war. The Russians might want to stop it, because of the losses, but this would leave the Donbas Russians which fought so bravely alone, abandoned, at the mercy of the Western Ukrainians. Obviously that would be a tragedy.

Quote:

---

the Donbas Russians which fought so bravely alone, abandoned

---

They didn't fight alone, since the very beginning they were supported by reinforcements from Russia.

And it is even possible that reinforcements from Russia were more numerous than local separatists.

=====

I'm trying to find 2001 census results for Crimea by county. I'm quite sure that not all counties had Russian majority - probably in counties located in the west and in the north of the peninsula Russians were minority. In entire peninsula Russians were 58%:

http://2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/res...l/nationality/

^^^ As for Donetsk and Luhansk:

Donetsk - 38% Russians (Ukrainians 57%)
Luhansk - 39% Russians (Ukrainians 58%)

Here are these brave Donbas heroes (English subs):

https://youtu.be/HqBPvt-J4UA

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tomenable

Here are these brave Donbas heroes (English subs):

---

There are plenty of records of Donbas fighters, volunteers. Its basically the same situation as with the Ukrainians, some are nationalists or volunteers, others being pressed into service. Whether the footage is faked or not, who knows. Currently the pressure on Ukrainian inhabitants to shut up, if they are critical of the war and the reluctance of the leadership to make peace, is minimum as high in Ukraine if not higher than in Russia. The many incidents of arrested, tortured, even killed people speaks for itself.
Its just a brutal conflict, mainly between the Western Ukrainian nationalists and the Russians proper, with the USA having added fuel to it and pushing Ukraine into war.

You can also get some real interviews from Donbas fighters, many complain about the lack of Russian support, the worse equipment and that the Ukrainians being way better equipped, e.g. in Mariupul, with better protective armour, even clothing, but especially the modern anti-tank weapons, sniper rifles, special ammunition, infrared cameras etc. One of them explained why they have to lay the city in ashes: They try to spot the snipers, then they call in the artillery to destroy the position. They have no protection, no better equipment, the Ukrainians can spot them earlier and hit them from a longer range with the Western sponsored weaponry. The only thing they can do, without having horrible losses, is to bomb every building to ground in which these snipers hide. And the Ukrainians constantly change positions, so they have to ruin a maximal amount of the city to make progress. But that's the only reasonable tactic they can apply, and its still dangerous enough to even use reconnaissance and spot the hidden Ukrainians with their sniper rifles.

That much to the "Russians attack civlians intentionally..."
They attack fighters which hide in civilian buildings, equipped with the best arms for that purpose they got from the West.

And then we can read in the Western media all that nonsense and crap about the "evil Russians", while they have to fight that way, to get their freedom from the regime in Kiev. The degree of hypocrisy is unbelievable. First the Ukrainians attacked Donbas, even civilians regularly, they still do by the way, intentionally, but if the Russians fight back, if they try to get the snipers with the Western sponsored high tech equipment, with the only reasonable tactic possible, they get called "butchers" and being accused of "war crimes".
The distortion by the Western propaganda is bizarre and completely absurd. No wonder they banned RT and all Russian sources, because people should have no access to the truth, to what happens on the battlefield and getting the Russian side of things as well.

I know the Russians did bad things, to start the full scale invasion to begin with, but the Western propaganda distortion is beyond absurd. There is not even the pretense of objectivity any more.

Obviously no soldier would be happy if the other side is that much better equipped and entrenched. The only advantage the Russians, which being also outnumbered, have, is the sheer firepower. They have no choice than to use it if they want to liberate Donbas once and for all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riverman

The Indian professor at about 20:00 minute is absolutely right:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFlqHFMY-08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFlqHFMY-08

The price should be paid by the USA and the Selenski regime on their own, not us Europeans, not the rest of the world, because they started the war with Russia. And they still escalate the war, against the will of the majority of the people, even in the USA if they get the right poll question ("war with Russia?" instead of "No-fly zone and help for Ukraine").

You see, Selenski is a ruthless warmonger, he was voted for by the Ukrainians to end the conflict with Russia, instead, with the USA, he was confrontational and escalated, without any good reason. I recently heard Ukrainian civilians getting interviewed: What they wish the most for is that their politicians make peace!

And here we have warmongers which claim to act on behalf of the people of Ukraine, yet its the Americans and the Selenski regimes actions which led to this war. They are responsible!

I'm not willing to pay any price, to plunge our societies and economies into a catastrophy, for these imperalist American geopolitical gambling! I'm ready to help the Ukrainian victims of war, take them as refugees, help them to be safe, getting back home if they want, helping them to rebuild their homeland. But I don't support the US-Selenski war, they are as wrong as Putin is. Its not our war, it never was, and we need the Russian resources - and its not just us, Germany, Austria, Hungary, France - even Poland, Ukraine etc. need it, the whole world does.
Russia can get other customers, but we won't get a better supplier, and the dependence on the American fracking gas would be a complete failure and catastrophy - like described, its no viable alternative, not even quantitatively.

There are just warmongers which have no idea, no plan. They don't know the conflict, the prelude to the escalation, the people on the ground, what they really think and want, how the US interference escalated to the war. They also don't know how to de-escalate, how to make peace or how to prevent a humane and economical catastrophy of much bigger dimensions than the current Ukraine conflict. They just have no idea and want war, war, war...

For what? For conquering the people in Donbas and wrecking Crimea? For crippling or even destroying Russia, probably for the price if a 3rd World War?

The people from Donbas fight very bravely, oftentimes with much worse equipment than the Ukrainians. They too fight for their home, after being attacked, constantly, by the Ukrainian nationalists. They bled for having a choice, for joining Russia. Their fight is more legitimate that what the Ukrainians do, because Russia never claimed the Western territories from which most of the fighters and warmongers come from. They were not ready to come to terms, to a diplomatic solution with Russia. Now they got their war, the war the Ukrainian natoinalists and the USA wanted.

Why should Europe and the whole world be jeopardised for this idiotic war they sought, they provoked, by all they did in the last years?

And again, all those warmongers have no idea, no plan, they just want "action against Russia", for whatever stupid reason. But no way out, no plan B. It's childish behaviour on the world political stage, which is so damned dangerous and simply stupid.

---

My view is reverse. The real warmongers are seated in the Kremlin. With their reactionary agenda.

They are literally and figuratively poisoners. Both internally and externally. Externally, for example, in the Donbas, but also in the US and Europe via the long arm of the extreme right. The sooner we get rid of that brood of vipers in the Kremlin, the better. And do you really think that in Mariupol and in other cities the Russian bombs are making differences between Russian speakers and Ukrainian speakers? Not a donkey would consider that to be true.

We have been naive in Europe by putting part of our energy supply in the hands of an untrustworthy dictator. Now we are faced with the consequences....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Northener

Indeed the battlefield is major concern, that already means lots of losses.....
The whole capacity of oil and gas (84%goes to Europe!) can't be pumped into China within a year. So the pressure is not only on the European side.

Wake up call for Europe to be independent of Russia.

I'm living on the biggest gas bel of Europe. But because the winning has caused severe earthquakes. So by next year it would meaning wining 0. In a poll 63% percent of of the Dutch (43% of the Groningers) has said ok when the need is there we must continue. And don't think that's an easy offer because that means end of living safe in your own house. Still the majority support this and even 43% of the Groningers.

What I mean to say must we only look at the wallet or are there are more things at stake. We must be ready to offer.

---

I know about the gass fields on which you are sitting.
I also know about the dammage the exploitation causes.
But I just can't quantify the pros and cons from here.
And I guess there will discussions are fueled by fundamentalists on both sides, pros and cons.
That is how todays democracy influenced by flash media functions today.
There is nobody you can trust any more if you're looking for the truth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bicicleur 2

I know about the gass fields on which you are sitting.
I also know about the dammage the exploitation causes.
But I just can't quantify the pros and cons from here.
And I guess there will discussions are fueled by fundamentalists on both sides, pros and cons.
That is how todays democracy influenced by flash media functions today.
There is nobody you can trust any more if you're looking for the truth.

---

That's no so much fundamentalism. We exploited for about 60 years the gas bel, the Dutch state has earned in total 417 billion euro from it.
But the earthquakes of the last 10 years are so severe that people are really in danger, simple as that.

Most of the houses still need to be reinforced to make them earthquake resistant. But that is a very viscous process.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riverman

There are plenty of records of Donbas fighters, volunteers. Its basically the same situation as with the Ukrainians, some are nationalists or volunteers, others being pressed into service. Whether the footage is faked or not, who knows. Currently the pressure on Ukrainian inhabitants to shut up, if they are critical of the war and the reluctance of the leadership to make peace, is minimum as high in Ukraine if not higher than in Russia. The many incidents of arrested, tortured, even killed people speaks for itself.
Its just a brutal conflict, mainly between the Western Ukrainian nationalists and the Russians proper, with the USA having added fuel to it and pushing Ukraine into war.

You can also get some real interviews from Donbas fighters, many complain about the lack of Russian support, the worse equipment and that the Ukrainians being way better equipped, e.g. in Mariupul, with better protective armour, even clothing, but especially the modern anti-tank weapons, sniper rifles, special ammunition, infrared cameras etc. One of them explained why they have to lay the city in ashes: They try to spot the snipers, then they call in the artillery to destroy the position. They have no protection, no better equipment, the Ukrainians can spot them earlier and hit them from a longer range with the Western sponsored weaponry. The only thing they can do, without having horrible losses, is to bomb every building to ground in which these snipers hide. And the Ukrainians constantly change positions, so they have to ruin a maximal amount of the city to make progress. But that's the only reasonable tactic they can apply, and its still dangerous enough to even use reconnaissance and spot the hidden Ukrainians with their sniper rifles.

That much to the "Russians attack civlians intentionally..."
They attack fighters which hide in civilian buildings, equipped with the best arms for that purpose they got from the West.

And then we can read in the Western media all that nonsense and crap about the "evil Russians", while they have to fight that way, to get their freedom from the regime in Kiev. The degree of hypocrisy is unbelievable. First the Ukrainians attacked Donbas, even civilians regularly, they still do by the way, intentionally, but if the Russians fight back, if they try to get the snipers with the Western sponsored high tech equipment, with the only reasonable tactic possible, they get called "butchers" and being accused of "war crimes".
The distortion by the Western propaganda is bizarre and completely absurd. No wonder they banned RT and all Russian sources, because people should have no access to the truth, to what happens on the battlefield and getting the Russian side of things as well.

I know the Russians did bad things, to start the full scale invasion to begin with, but the Western propaganda distortion is beyond absurd. There is not even the pretense of objectivity any more.

Obviously no soldier would be happy if the other side is that much better equipped and entrenched. The only advantage the Russians, which being also outnumbered, have, is the sheer firepower. They have no choice than to use it if they want to liberate Donbas once and for all.

---

More laughable fiction from Riverman.:laughing:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Northener

My view is reverse. The real warmongers are seated in the Kremlin.

---

Who crept up to the Russian border and weaponised a whole country against Russia? The Russian were defensive, for all those years, it was the USA which made the transgressions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vallicanus

More laughable fiction from Riverman.:laughing:

---

I know, for you the Russian victims, civilian and military, are just a joke, you don't care. The war wasn't started by Russia, only escalated when they were running out of options, since the Selenski regime didn't negotiate at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Northener

That's no so much fundamentalism. We exploited for about 60 years the gas bel, the Dutch state has earned in total 417 billion euro from it.
But the earthquakes of the last 10 years are so severe that people are really in danger, simple as that.

Most of the houses still need to be reinforced to make them earthquake resistant. But that is a very viscous process.

---

I'm aware that it's easier to assess the profits than the dammages.
Dammages both on infrastructure as environmental dammage.
I won't take a stance here without detailed and in-depth knowledge of the facts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riverman

That much to the "Russians attack civlians intentionally..."
They attack fighters which hide in civilian buildings, equipped with the best arms for that purpose they got from the West.

---

Are Ukrainian forces supposed to abandon cities and not defend them? Don't be nuts.

Major cities are the most important parts of your country to be defended against the enemy.

Less of ideological blabbering, and talk more about military reality please. This is war.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tomenable

Are Ukrainian forces supposed to abandon cities and not defend them? Don't be nuts.

Major cities are the most important parts of your country to be defended against the enemy.

Less of ideological blabbering, and talk more about military reality please. This is war.

---

Some pages ago I wrote that the Ukrainian tactic is understandable. Fact is the tactics of both sides cause this bloodshed and to blame it on the Russians only is what I criticised. Obviously, if I would be on the Ukrainian side and a military decision maker, I would advised them to do just what they do.

My problem is not that they defend successfully that way, but that the blame for the civilian casualties and destructions being given to the Russians only, while the Ukrainians still refuse to negotiate. This refusal to negotiate in a honest and serious way, considering the Russian position and legitimate demands, is the main problem I have with the Ukrainian side. Other than that they surely fight a heroic fight and are proud people, no problem with that. The diplomatic side is the main problem.

Mayor of Lviv agrees with Kaczynski that it was Putin who shot down Polish army commanders in 2010:

Strong words of the mayor of Lviv about the Smolensk catastrophe. "Was Putin behind it? 100 percent!":

https://www-wprost-pl.translate.goog...en&_x_tr_hl=pl

"(...) PiS president Jarosław Kaczyński has recently repeated in interviews that "there is evidence" to show what "really happened at the Smolensk airport". He also stated outright that "there is no doubt that it was an attack." The President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, also mentioned Smolensk, and in an interview with Wirtualna Polska, the mayor of Lviv, Andriy Sadowy, referred to it.

He noted that "everyone remembers" what happened in Smolensk, just as the whole world saw how the Russians shot down a Malaysia Airlines plane flying to the Netherlands eight years ago.

Sadowy stated that the Russians "like to do such symbolic things as shelling Lviv before Joe Biden's speech in Warsaw" and assessed that the Russian army "are murderers." As he said, people normally "try to understand Russia" and its actions, but they are "madmen" - They have to be hit in the head - he said. And he added that Jarosław Kaczyński was right to call Russia a murderer-state.


Kaczyński about Smolensk: It was an attack (...)."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riverman

Who crept up to the Russian border and weaponised a whole country against Russia? The Russian were defensive, for all those years, it was the USA which made the transgressions.



I know, for you the Russian victims, civilian and military, are just a joke, you don't care. The war wasn't started by Russia, only escalated when they were running out of options, since the Selenski regime didn't negotiate at all.

---

No, you are the joke. Provocation is no excuse. Putin is the aggressor. He started a war without a declaration of war.

You reason like a 10 year old.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tomenable

Are Ukrainian forces supposed to abandon cities and not defend them? Don't be nuts.

Major cities are the most important parts of your country to be defended against the enemy.

Less of ideological blabbering, and talk more about military reality please. This is war.

---

He's talking propaganda-babble, rather like the Kremlin.

Armed Forces of Independent Belarus (not be confused with Lukashenko's Illegal Dictatorship) support Ukraine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H40I1FDZX0

^^^ White-red-white is the flag of Independent Belarus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbYs3iKbVmE

At least Lukashenko is an honest dictator (unlike Putin):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmuG0kSghIQ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tunona

Whoever comes upon you with a sword will perish by the sword. Whoever digs a pit for another will fall into it himself.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odFgNbxmFd8

Verse 1
I'm injecting my morphine, I load in a new magazine.
A training exercise? We ran out of gasoline!
I don't mean to be crass, but this plan is total ass.
We're getting slaughtered here en mass!
Without support, how're we even supposed to last?


Chorus
I ask the troopers from Crete, how is this even fair?
We're better off sitting on electric chairs!
Jump out if you dare, you'll drop into the sea there.
World's most elite airborne force: the VDV!
World's most effective airborne force: the VDV!


Verse 2
A mission we'll never fail, we'll for sure take Hostomel.
Didn't perform SEAD or CAS. I'll send the planner straight to hell.
Air insertions are ******, on the ground we'll have more luck.
Missiles cooking off our BMDs, these cope cages ******* suck!
We better off painting "Z's" on garbage trucks -- The VDV!


Chorus
I ask the troopers from Crete, how is this even fair?
We're better off sitting on electric chairs!
Jump out if you dare, you'll drop into the sea there.
World's most retarded airborne force: the VDV!
World's most incompetent airborne force: the VDV!


Verse 3
Mariupol and Kharkiv we are here. Its encirclement is near.
We'll finish fascism, just wait for our Commander.
Shot in the face, this war's a disgrace.
The Ukrainian Air Force even got an ace.
Get me the hell away from this nightmarish place.


Chorus
I ask the troopers from Crete, how is this even fair?
We're better off sitting on electric chairs!
Jump out if you dare, you'll drop into the sea there.
World's most expendable airborne force: the VDV!


Outro
I ask again: our air and ground support is where?
Whatever happened to the great Russian bear?
Putin's favourite cannon fodder: the VDV.
Sent straight to Davy Jones' Locker: the VDV.
The absolute best at getting slaughtered: the VDV!

Comparison of Hitler's and Putin's speeches, with English subtitles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZmpEaKGgsI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZmpEaKGgsI

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tunona

Russia's fate is sealed.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXRz_iiNi2g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXRz_iiNi2g

Regarding casualties:

I think that Donetsk People's Republic is the only side of this conflict which is reporting its casualties as they truly are.

As of 31 March, the Donetsk People's Republic alone has admitted to 4326 killed or wounded soldiers.

This is over 21% of total manpower which Donetsk Republic's armed forces had at the beginning of the war (20,000).

They lost over 1/5 of their army in just one month of the conflict.

I believe that Russia has suffered similar losses (about 1/5 of their total strength) but is not reporting the truth about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tomenable

Comparison of Hitler's and Putin's speeches, with English subtitles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZmpEaKGgsI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZmpEaKGgsI

---

Striking!

According to Riverman (if I follow his reasoning in a right way but meanwhile his stated this over and over again so it's not that difficult) this is all wrong, Putin only reacted on aggression/ warmonger actions of the Ukrainians and the US etc. The Russian minority was pressed....Just like Hitler stated about the German ones.

Imo in essence they both play the card of murdered innocence, to hide the own aggressive intentions