Chess whiz Kasparov also features in part 2 of "Russian Godfathers." The cast of characters is essentially same now as then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
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Chess whiz Kasparov also features in part 2 of "Russian Godfathers." The cast of characters is essentially same now as then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
Get your historical references straight, please. I'm talking about Czechoslovakia during the pre-Second World War Era, when that appeaser Chamberlain thought he had achieved "Peace For Our Time".
To quote Churchill on that occasion:
“You were given the choice between war and dishonour. You chose dishonour, and you will have war."
Second of all, stop with all the same old talking points. This had little to do with any recent "provocations" by the west or Ukraine. Putin has NEVER accepted the dismemberment of the Russian Empire, and he never will, and he's been planning this foray for years.
Russia promised in 1994 to respect Ukraine's sovereignty and then invaded it, not to protect the break away provinces as you insisted for so long, but to incorporate the whole of Ukraine.
Ukraine could sign an agreement with NATO TOMORROW never to join and IT WOULD MAKE NO DIFFERENCE.
Who are you, anyway, to advocate giving away the right of a sovereign state to join NATO if it so chooses. It's their only defense against being put behind an Iron Curtain again.
You know what? Forget it. Both you and Malaparte are going on ignore. I don't have discussions with apologists for war criminals.
Ed. Don't know why I can't get rid of all the bolding.
@Northener,
I apologize for the curse word; I spent too much of my professional life in what was then a "man's" job, and associating with cops and criminal defense attorneys, who have mouths like sewers. I did pick up one particular curse word, which when really angry I do occasionally let out, although mostly in writing with asterisks and not in person, thank goodness.
Russian doctrine, unlike the American approach, is to conduct war and diplomacy at the same time. War for the Russians is a means to achieve the ends of diplomacy. Maybe the Russians have read Clausewitz, but it is more likely that Clausewitz's thought was shaped by his service in Tsar Alexander's army during the struggle against Napoleon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
You might want to be a touch more skeptical of the news reports next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by aalexa
Yes and there is much which reminds me of Czaristic times.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Malaparte
For fairly objective reporting of the military facts on the ground, I suggest the Military & Foreign Affairs channel on YouTube ===
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekWRes-pAD4
#1 -- it's a violation of balance of power politics 101 to war against Russia when the true enemy is ChinaQuote:
Originally Posted by aalexa
#2 -- I do not trust the Davos crowd who are driving the West off a cliff
#3 -- I would prefer a multipolar order where an independent Russia closely cooperates with Carolingian Europe than a bipolar order where a much reduced West is set against China + Russia + most of Eurasia
Excellent channel and report. Yes, the Western media doing deliberately a one sided propaganda war, without even trying to understand the Russian standpoint - at least publicly, the services do know, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malaparte
As for democracy in Ukraine, its essentially an Oligarchic state, most of the media being now controlled by the state (Selenski regime) and a few oligarchs which supported him. There was kind of a cleansing in the recent years, with any dissenting and especially pro-Russian voices being shut down, which also explains the current attitude of the population, in part. The difference to Russia, in this respect, is not that big at all.
Quote:
Three pro-Russian TV channels have gone off the air in Kyiv after pro-Western President Volodymyr Zelenskiy signed a Ukrainian security council decree imposing sanctions for five years on eight media and TV companies.
The Kyiv stations affected were ZIK, NewsOne, and 112 Ukraine.
Quote:
Zelenskiy's spokeswoman Iulia Mendel said: "These media have become one of the tools of war against Ukraine, so they are blocked in order to protect national security," adding that evidence had emerged of their being funded from Russia.
Quote:
A prominent opposition figure allied with Kozak, Viktor Medvedchuk, also condemned the sanctions imposed.
The head of the Ukrainian Union of Journalists, Nikolay Tomilenko, said: "The deprivation of access to Ukrainian media for an audience of millions without a court ... is an attack on freedom of expression."
He was voted for by the Ukrainian population to end the conflict (peacefully):
https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelens...ons/a-56438505Quote:
President Zelenskiy, formerly a comedian and actor, was elected in 2019 on a pledge to end the conflict. Both sides, under European mediation, agreed to a ceasefire last July.
If anything, the West should have pressed harder, again both sides, to accept a peace in negotiations in the last years! That was a missed opportunity, but especially the USA and UK didn't want a compromise anyway, but backed up a hardliner Ukrainian position.
The main reason why Selenski is still able to hold this together, even though he got voted for with false promises of peace and reconciliation with Russia, is that the nationalists have no other one in charge, he became he face of the resistance, a political hardliner - from a leftist-humane comedien, for which most people voted, to a hawkish and irreconcilable hardliner which won't go for any compromise with the Russians.
Another issue is that people have to think about the position of the USA in the past and now. Just imagine that both Canada, Mexico and Cuba would have ally up with Russia, spread hostile propaganda and get Russian forces to support them, including missiles. And now, in a time of weakness, Texas breaks off. Soon after they got their independence, they start to spread anti-US propaganda, make the population hostile, get delivery of arms and want to join the new Russian alliance, while there are still military bases in Texas, some of which are of great strategical importance. You also know, that a large fraction of this Texan population is still pro-US American, and gets suppressed by the new government.
Now imagine such a situation, the rest of the USA being surrounded by rather hostile states, all allied up and upgraded, while your state got a weak period, and now some of the states which belonged to your country not just break away, but join, after being manipulated and corrupted by your foes, the new alliance.
The USA did do much worse for much less, all the time. But since its Russia, it just has to accept the "sovereignty" of a state and all its decisions and watch, even if the opposing government shows no good will at all and threatens to join the hostile alliance as soon as possible and then kick all your allies and friends out of the country, taking away the bases you got for centuries, just like that and posing a threat in your flank, what they even told you.
Its just hypocrisy if the USA, from a comfortable own position, tell other powers to abide the law, while they constantly broke it themselves whenever they "needed to".
A more balanced coverage would be great, but is again not in the interest of the Western establishment. Like all the Ukrainian propaganda videos, even some of the worse ones with mistreated Russians, being broadcasted, while the Russian side is no longer allowed to even correct some fake news on their own, because they can't reach the audience any more.
In fact, that policy of censorship and cancel culture being now spread one wave after another, from the USA to the rest of the "Free World". And now its just about Russia, that's a complete phasing of the mass media, its no free press any more. Sure, Russia is worse, yet its in a state of war and they don't even claim otherwise. But in the West, the freedom gets narrowed down as well, and this is yet another great example of this big manipulation without any dissenting voices left, or at least fewer and fewer remain.
Another thing nobody is criticising is that all Ukrainian males between 18-60 being drafted and are not allowed to leave the country. Where are all those peace activists and anti-war, anti-draft people from the West and their outcry? Why should any male in the Ukraine being happy to serve as cannon fodder for Selenski? Where is the difference to the poor Russian soldiers which have to fight? But its being presented, even in our leftist and Liberal mass media, as if every Ukrainian would be happy to die for this war and all Russians are unwillig to fight from the start. That's again, just like many other "details", nothing but propaganda. This kind of 180 degree turn in the media is really telling, it really is. Just like it was with Covid restrictions and the ban on demonstrations, the parallel is there indeed. Suddenly being critical or unadapted became a crime and people got imprisoned for just demanding their rights, unlike in all the other cases in which it was being promoted.
I know it was a special situation, I wasn't against all measures at all and am vaccinated myself, but the sheer speed of the turn was amazing, and it was just phased media manipulation.
There are even doctors in Germany saying "No Russians, Ukrainians welcomed":
https://www.zeit.de/news/2022-03/04/....google.com%2FQuote:
Die am vergangenen Freitag verschickte Mail hatte für Aufsehen gesorgt. Sie ging an eine Agentur, die russischsprachige Patienten in Deutschland vermittelt. Die Behandlung russischer Patienten würde «aufgrund der schweren Völkerrechtsverletzung durch den offenbar geistig gestörten Autokraten Putin» ab sofort grundsätzlich abgelehnt, hieß es darin. Ukrainische Patienten seien willkommen.
Are they insane? That's just like, "we don't treat patients which didn't get vaccinated", and stuff like that.
Suddenly all those "nice people" can beat on a nation, on a group, can support cancel culture and censorship, can discriminate, and its not just ok, but informers being welcomed. Its disgusting.
They already talk about the next wave of censorship, to do a "crackdown on Russian propaganda". And who decides what's still allowed and what's not? Just another precedent for the upcoming suppression in another sphere.
The rivalry of the future will be between the Western world and China. And Russia acts as if we were in the 20th century, with Cuba full of Soviet missiles aimed at the United States. What is Putin trying to do with the current war? Russia cares about Ukraine, when in East Asia on the borders between Russia and China, there are a few million people on one side, and hundreds of millions on the other? I have seen Chinese maps, where territories are claimed that "should" belong to China, among which there are large parts of Russian East Asia. China is the world's second largest economy, and Russia barely approaches the economy of the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. Will they pretend to become an annex of China?
Russia still has time. Just some years ago, China needed to get trained for operating Russian type jets. Then, they copied, almost 1 : 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by italouruguayan
Now they just begin to produce on the same level on their own.
China catched up, but its still not ahead. China needs both resources and tech from Russia to get to the next level.
The longer Russia would have waited, the more imbalanced the relationship will become. I think Putin was pushing himself to create facts in his lifetime.
And the counterpart of Selenskyj helped to come to this risky and brutal conclusion, because he offered no acceptable alternative in time.
Two egomaniacs got out of control and am pushing each other at the expense of the people on the ground. That's indeed stressful.
Keep the faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by aalexa
See:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exc...source=twitter
It's bipartisan. The extremists on both sides and the West European fellow travelers, if they're not actually Russians, be damned.
"Some 80% of Americans - including solid majorities of Republicans and Democrats - said the United States should stop buying Russian oil, according to the poll. An equally bipartisan 74% of Americans said the United States and its allies in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization should impose a no-fly zone in Ukraine.
To be honest, I would rather have a doctor openly refuse to treat me than "treat me" reluctantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
This is the sort of thing that could make one into a conspiracy theorist. ("My dear lad, don't you know, only the poor conspire")
Ukrainian journalist Daria Kaleniuk works for the WEF
https://www.weforum.org/people/daria-kaleniuk
This is her "confronting" Boris Johnson earlier this week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcuT-3LQHF0
This is Mikhail Khodorkovsky -- subject of the second segment of "Russian Godfathers" documentary that I posted upthread -- interviewed on French tv about Putin two days ago -->>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7jxPqeOF5s
You have stated in plain terms why Russia is the natural ally of the West in the current age. Instead, we have driven her into the arms of China, which carries the danger, for Russia, of its eventual servitude to China. That Russia has chosen this dangerous path speaks to the West's utter hostility to Russia. It is a tragedy for Russia.Quote:
Originally Posted by italouruguayan
Russian conductor of Munich Philharmonic fired for "refusing to denounce" Putin.
This is absolutely shameful. Thomas Mann must be turning in his grave.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/a...h-ukraine.html
If you are "unable" to denounce someone like Putin, should others be forced to work with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Malaparte
Musicians need to be able to respect their conductor.
Anti-fascism laws are pretty strict in Germany and not limited to the persona of Hitler.
Quote:
Following the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Mayor of Munich Dieter Reiter stated that he would remove Gergiev as conductor of the Munich Philharmonic unless Gergiev publicly condemned the Russian invasion. Similarly, the Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra said that it would drop Gergiev from its September festival if he did not stop supporting Putin. Milan's La Scala also sent a letter to Gergiev asking him to declare his support for a peaceful resolution in Ukraine or he would not be permitted to complete his engagement conducting Tchaikovsky's The Queen of Spades. This follows an announcement by New York City's Carnegie Hall that it had canceled two May performances by the Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra that were to be conducted by Gergiev and the Vienna Philharmonic dropped Gergiev from a five-concert tour in the U.S. that was to start on 25 February.[30][31][32]
What IS shameful is your totalitarian Putinite apologism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malaparte
That's nothing but Gesinnungsterror ("conviction terror") in German and its really shameful. You could argue if they make active propaganda for Putin/the Russian war, that this might be inacceptable. But that they need to actively denounce their president, country and people, in such a dire situation, just for keeping a job which has absolutely nothing to do with the war and dispute, and all of this only because they are Russian citizens, this is shameful indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by firetown
Again, I would probably understand if people have troubles with an active Putin supporter, but that there is sort of a Generalverdacht (general suspicion) and pressure on the people in the sense of Gesinnungsterror, to "confess openly" and speak bad about Russia, just because of their citizenship or ethnicity, it speaks for itself. If people defend such measures already, they shouldn't speak about human, liberal and democratic values. That's hypocrisy.
I always thought that Russia is the eastern end of the Western world. The problem is that with Putin, the concept of the Soviet Union has returned. Putin faces 21st century problems with a 20th century mentality. And the Russian government is not a poor victim... it has enough nuclear weapons to want to impose its views...Quote:
Originally Posted by Malaparte
It became obvious to me, they don't just push all Ukrainian males from 18-60 into military service, they also keep them as hostages. And the Western media just report about the men "staying back to fight". Really? As if 100 % of the Ukrainian men would be willing to sacrifice themselves for the Selenski regime and dying as cannon fodder! Nobody seems to care about all those people being pressed into service, many against their will. There were already chaotic scenes on the borders and the women won't tellt he truth, because they are afraid about what might happen to their husbands and sons. The Western "free press" doesn't report those incidents and situation properly at all, they only portray Ukrainian men as willing to fight and die for that regime. This kind of propaganda, by the leftist media in the West, how everything being phased within hours and no dissenting voices allowed any more, is quite telling about the state of our media and democracy.
Similarly, the Ukrainian regime deliberately delays the evacuation of civilians, so they can use them as human shields and delay the Russian attack. They play on time, to re-enforce their positions, regroup their military units and wait for weapons and an escalation which might bring Western powers into the war. This kind of dirty war is obviously the only military strategy they can apply to win, if they are unwilling to accept any political compromise with Russia, which seems to be the case. But it just shows how both sides don't care for the civilian lifes and structures, the Ukrainians even less, because the Russians wanted to keep it "as clean as possible", but the Ukrainian has the opposite strategy - again, its understandable from their strategic position, but it shows the same time how they just instrumentalise human suffering for the political-military goals.
I don't know if Angela has a point or not if you're a troll or an American who is going for the "hillbilly" existence, I don't really care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malaparte
What I find remarkable is that you are playing with a kind of ideology that has subversive aims when it comes to liberal democracy. Those thoughts can just as much come from a left-wing radical as from a right-wing radical. You have that freedom as far as I'm concerned.
At the same time, I am undeterred when it comes to Putin's Russia. In my view it comes over with a kind of regime such as we have known in Franco's in Spain. But then of course in a completely different context, one based on Dugin's fourth political theory, with a revanchist agenda, with a ruthless aggressive line outwardly and a repressive inward line (all press freedom is now completely gone, protesters become rucksichtlos discharged, etc.).
I do not declare Western democracy a panacea. Here too we are dealing with hypocrisy etc etc. At the same time I notice a kind of self-hatred on the extreme flanks in the West. A self-loathing that you apparently like to stoke.
You can do that. At the same time, I have an unshakable awareness of the values ​​of liberal democracy. Again, not perfect, but certainly worth defending. Many in the West had lost sight of that for a while. Let the war in Ukraine be a wake up call, liberal democracy is worth defending. No matter how many doubts you think you can throw around...
Just a small comment for that: Be careful as to where you look at. The threat for democracy might come from different directions and some might even disguise themselves as "upright democrats" which do everything they do, every move towards escalation, brainwashing and censorship only to "save Democracy". They are in charge, they got the control, they impose rules and pressure on the people, but talk as if they are helpless victims of a vicious attack on "Democracy", even if its just about their own personal agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
And this time with Russia, its just another step in the same direction. The Ukraine conflict being already instrumentalised and this tendency will increase over time.
Having a wake up call isn't defending democracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
You still allow Putin to profile himself as the victor.
Maintaining a no-fly zone above Ukraine to cripple Putin's invasion would be.
And if you don't have the reach to do it for the whole of Ukraine, do it west of the Dnjepr.
He's a troll.:thinking:Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
That's a declaration of war with Russia and if wouldn't lead to a complete escalation no sane individual should ever want between the Western alliance and Russia, it would in a best case scenario just lead to the Ukrainians never to agree to any peace and prolonging the war for many years to come. And the longer it goes, to more sure it becomes that there will be a Western : Russian escalation, which again, nobody should ever want because it would be the path to World War III and nuclear strikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by bicicleur 2
I honestly think declaring a no-fly zone over ALL of Ukraine is worth the risk. We did it in the Middle East and downed Russian pilots as a result, and we didn't have a nuclear war.
In some ways, crashing Russia's economy in the hope a new government is put in place that will withdraw from Ukraine and become a responsible world partner is perhaps a bigger risk. The average Russian thinks their soldiers are on a humanitarian mission. What will they think of the West for destroying their economy? They will see it as an unprovoked attack because they don't know what their army is doing. Think Weimar Republic, for goodness sakes.
The West should focus on the war in Ukraine. Get the no fly zone in place fast. Get them the materiel and humanitarian aid they desperately need fast. Let contractors fly the freaking planes if need be to take out that column in the north and break the supply chains in the south. Bombard the Russian troops with leaflets, loudspeakers telling them they'll be unharmed if they just go home. In World War I the Russian Army just dropped their rifles and walked home. It could happen again if the Ukrainians show restraint.
Putin is not going to negotiate in good faith ever. He has wanted this since the end of the Soviet Union, playing the long game while crying victim, and he won't stop until he gets it. He has to lose militarily now, or we'll have to face him militarily later.
Indeed. Don't feed him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallicanus
The law of unintended consequences: Finnish public opinion swings toward seeking admission to NATO.
I hope it's a wake up call for people to be aware that democracy is never a given fact....may be some have forgotten that bicicleur.Quote:
Originally Posted by bicicleur 2
And I'm against direct intervention because that would mean ww3.
Putin can only reach a Pyrrhus victory.
I look very clear to the extreme right and left. That is the main direction. I don't share the suspicious side about censorship and brainwash you have. The best guarantee is still free press, checks and balances. And nothing is for granted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
What I have seen, and heard is that the (ordinary) Russian soldiers had mainly the idea that they went for an exercise, and they are far from motivated. The Russians ultimately rely on heavy artillery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
Besides that Putin can only reach a Pyrrhic victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by bicicleur 2
In Russia it will be a victory and he'll stay in power for more decades to come, the regime will continue to be a threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northener
I believe maintaining a no-fly zone may tilt the war and prevent Putin from installing a puppet regime in Ukraine.
Never since the fall of the Berlin wall there has been such a big occasion to help a country on it's path to democracy and at the same time give a blow to a totalitarian regime threatening democracy and the west.
The last 9 days Ukraine already gave a serious blow to Putin's self-confidence and now is the moment to strike.
"That kind of dirty war" that you mention reminds me of the resistance of the Polish army in 1939, when they retreated to the east trying to resist and wait for help from the West... until the Soviet Union stabbed them in the back... .Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
The Ukrainian army uses civilians as human shields and tries to use all the cities as their main strongholds, so that they can hide better and the Russians have to do maximal damage to the people and infrastructure. I can understand why they do it, but Selenski is obviously a gambler who doesn't care as long as he sees a chance to ruin Russia and make himself a hero. A lot of cities did surrender during WWII simply to save them from utter destruction.Quote:
Originally Posted by italouruguayan
If regular and irregular forces, which are not recognisable as combatants, hide in the urban structures, of course, any reasonable army leader would bomb the whole city to the ground before letting his boys go in. The Ukrainian leadership wants to maximise the damage and "crimes" of the Russians, so that they can provoke incidents or an intervention from the West.
That's more like dirty partisan wars, which deliberately calculated for retaliation on civilians, to get the public support against the occupants. We're already heading towards this, because there being mobs rounding up pro-Russian Ukrainians, mistreating Russians and even publishing the material, everything to stir up more brutality. Like I said, its a kind of dirty war only comparable to what the partisans especially in Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union did, if using WWII. It has little to nothing to do with e.g. the Polish strategy before their capitulation.
If snipers shoot from windows of an appartment block and civilians throw Molotov cocktails from their cars and Russian soldiers get mistreated and tortured, the obvious consequence will be just hate and retaliation. Since the Ukrainian leadership promoted such behaviour and actions from the first day, they planned to fight the Russians with that kind of dirty tactics from the start. Its the strategy the Selenski regime adopted. If you put civilians deliberately in the line of fire, they have to get hit, even if the other side tries to prevent it. And from a certain point on, they won't care any more, because there will be a vicious cycle of hate from both sides. Again, its the tactic the Selenski regime has chosen to get maximal popular support both from the Ukrainians and the outside world. But its a dirty war and strategy, no doubt about that. And they do it because they gamble for getting Russia to its knees, which is obviously what especially the USA and UK want too.
That's also, to repeat it once more, why Germany, France and several other nations, which are not that trigger-happy, tried to keep things down and not supporting that obvious war course of the Ukrainian leadership.
Again, Russia made the big wrong step to attack all of Ukraine, but the sanctions would have been imposed even if they would have just defended the East anyway, so they went all-in. I don't know in detail how the negotiations were in the past, so I can't say for sure who is to blame primarily for all these peace talks to fail, but its quite obvious that both sides didn't do enough for peace in the last 8 years. And in the last months the Selenski regime was having a straight war course.
Why should the world risk a nuclear war for such a gambler who obviously doesn't care for the risks his people or the world are taking?
That would be really, really regrettable, if the defense of such a regime would cause World War 3.
Keep this biased nonsense for that zoo at Apricity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
So, that's his home base? Why am I not surprised?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallicanus
If not an ethnic Russian than a stooge; all of his posts could have come right from state news services in Russia.
He must be doing it merely to annoy. Clearly, he is convincing no one here because it is obvious that he's not reasoning logically or honestly. Having different opinions is one thing; these are serious matters with no easy answers. What we don't need is obvious propaganda.
I cannot fathom why people are engaging him.
Never feed the t-rolls!
Most of those idiots who engage in pro-Russian (often anti-semitic) conspiracy theories are usually migrants from Eastern Europe who live in the "evil" West. I have yet to see a single German (or an Italian, Iberian etc.) that was vehemently pro-Russia. Even the neo-Nazi ethnic Germans (or the original ones) don't support them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela
Why did they migrate to the so called "ZOG" West in the first place? Why don't they go live in Russia?
What exactly is nonsense of what I wrote?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallicanus
So everybody which disagrees is a troll and what not, but people which demand a "No-fly zone" and want NATO to start shooting down Russian jets are reasonable?
To risk a nuclear war for a regime which doesn’t take negotiations seriously and wants to escalate a war on the back of its own people is the unbiased truth?
I just hope that this kind of warmongering never makes it among the NATO decision makers, it would be utterly disastrous. They promised they won't, I just hope they keep at least that promise, because regardless of what many of you say now, you might regret it if they don't.