Southern Ancestry in "Steppe"

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Originally Posted by Anfänger

Guys, actually I thought someone is going to refute my Model, PCA or the logic behind my arguments.

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I do not have access to your simulated Progress_CHG coordinates (and I also don't know how you created those coordinates in the first place).

Can you post these coordinates here?

I don't understand any of that calculator stuff it's way over my head...all I know is my male line is E and my mothers is A, but I did have a Full Japanese great grandfather on my mother's side who was fooling around in South America during the "Last Samurai" Era... :laughing:

That is a very interesting thread, it has gone a little out of topic.
I also personaly think that the southern element came from the southern caucasus, the north caucasus had much more interations with therest of the middle east than many think , georgia is not any isolated genetic island.In fact this topic realy interests me as some researches have considered the possibility of Y DNA J2b L283 being connected to this migration. This lineage very likely made its way to the balkans with the Indo european expansion as it was the main Y DNA among Illyrians, basal lineages are found in armenia (nurabak culture) and the oldest J2b so far has been found in western Iran + the only living basal J2b* is a dude from Uzbekstan(Toshkent).I am just repeating what been said many times, J2b L283 would have likely formed beetwen western Iran and Armeia around 7700 bce , the TMRCA is from 3500 bce and would have lived god knows where,but this seem to match way too much the theory you are putting out. I will not even touch on all the "southern " mtdna present among yamnaya that surely did come from parts of the middle east other than the north caucasus/Georgia.

IndoEuropean most likely came from Europe since it's the place where the race keeps dominating today.

If it was southern, then you should explain why the Middle Easteners are there. Makes more sense to think they got their space in the North. You know, where they are primarily located till this day!!!!

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Originally Posted by Tomenable

I do not have access to your simulated Progress_CHG coordinates (and I also don't know how you created those coordinates in the first place).

Can you post these coordinates here?

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It was posted on AG a while ago. Here you go:

Code:

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Progress_CHG,0.099197,0.135949,-0.106789,-0.000937,-0.073897,0.032282,0.032591,0.018422,-0.135691,-0.048098,-0.011338,0.018446,-0.051498,-0.009506,0.055689,-0.021348,-0.002622,-0.011345,-0.00524,0.009119,0.008214,-0.016218,-0.010373,-0.005049,-0.000889

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Originally Posted by Mmiikkii

IndoEuropean most likely came from Europe since it's the place where the race keeps dominating today.
If it was southern, then you should explain why the Middle Easteners are there. Makes more sense to think they got their space in the North. You know, where they are primarily located till this day!!!!

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First of all this not about PIE Urheimat but about the southern ancestry we see in the steppe. It is undeniable that there is this ancestry, only the location where it comes from is still unknown and this is the topic my thread.

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Originally Posted by Anfänger

We know from various studies that Yamnaya/Corded ware and Eneolithic Steppe(Progress/Vonyuchka) have a significant amount of southern ancestry, right now called CHG or CHG/Iran but we still don't know where it is exactly from. There are many suggestions, I try to summarize the two main hypothesis that are up to debate.

1.Some argue that the southern ancestry is from the NORTHERN Caucasus and that it mixed with a northern source most closely related to EHGs in the Mesolithic to form the typical steppe ancestry profile of the various steppe groups. Actually this is the hypothesis Davidski and his crowd is favoring.

2.Others argue that the southern ancestry is from the SOUTHERN Caucasus and it moved north where it mixed with a northern source(EHG-related) ON the Pontic-caspian steppe to form the famous steppe ancestry. Actually this is the hypothesis I favour.

Here I want to present some arguments for a southern homeland for CHG/Iran of steppe ancestry:

-The autosomal breakdown of the southern ancestry of Eneolithic Steppe(simulated) looks like this:

Attachment 13171

We can see that it is very much like hunter-gatherers from modern day Georgia(kotias) BUT it has a significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N. These three populations probably aren't the real sources because the distance is pretty high, but they give us a hint. So how likely is it that a population living north of the caucasus has significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N ? I think the answer is clear, there is zero chance for population with this autosomal breakdown to live just north of Kotias and Satsurblia(CHG).

- We can also observe the same position for this southern ancestry on a PCA:

Attachment 13172

We see a shift of the southern ancestry (ProgressCHG) towards Iran_N (Ganj_Dareh) and away from CHG(Kotias), also it has a minor shift towards Anatolian_N(Tepecik Ciftlik_N). Interestingly, the southern ancestry is exactly between Iran_Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik_N, with a stronger shift towards Hotu though. Maybe the population we are searching for lived just between Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik? Anyway, nothing indicates a population just north of CHG, the Caucasus.

- Now let's see what David Anthony has to say about the southern ancestry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MOrEA84qvo

The highest amount of southern ancestry is in Berezhnovka just north of the Volga Delta/Estuary not from the northern Caucasus(Progress/Vonyuchka). David Anthony thinks that there was population with "pure" southern ancestry in the Volga Delta/Estuary, this might be true, but we need samples from there to prove it like he also says. Luckily, we know from the Patterson et al. 2022 preprint that the mixture between a southern and northern source population happened at about 4400BC. So it didn't happened in the Mesolithic like Davidski assumed. I think we can also exclude the southern Caucasus for this mixture event if it happened at about 4400BC because there was too much Anatolian_N in the southern Caucasus in this time period to be the source. The mixture must have happened ON the steppe for the most part.

All these taking together I think we can exclude the first hypothesis favoured by Davidski and his crowd. Personally, i think the best place for this southern ancestry has to be Eastern Turkey/Northern Iran/Armenia/Azerbaijan, before roughly 6500 BC of course.

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Interesting how about this:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post644234

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Originally Posted by Northener

Interesting how about this:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post644234

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Hmm, i don't know Northerner. I don't see a connection between these two topics. Physical traits can change without any new admixture coming into a population.

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...eneolithic.jpg

The map shows the location of 1105 sites in the Caucasus. Progress 2 and Marinskaya 5 are located side by side at the southern edge of the Russian Steppe. Two Marinskaya 5 samples carried Y-DNA haplogroup L, which is rare in the north but common in South Asia and Mesopotamia. Ancient Maikop individuals carried Y-DNA haplogroups from the south such as J2a1, G2a2a and L. Maykop played a key role in the transfer of technical innovations and social alterations to the Russian Steppe and there were some genetic interactions along the way.

Sample Site Age, BP Culture mtDNA Y-DNA
MK5008.B0101 Marinskaya 5 5185.5 Late Maykop T1a2 ?
MK5004 Marinskaya 5 5171.0 Late Maykop T2al L
MK5001 Marinskaya 5 5141.5 Late Maykop K1a4 L
I6268 Klady 5564.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya R1a J2a1
I6267 Klady 5438.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya T2c1
I6270 Klady 5434.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya U1b ?
I6266 Klady 5200.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya X2f J2a1
I6272 Dlinnaya Polyana 5200.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya U1b1 G2a2a

Hello im peter nice to meet you !!!

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Originally Posted by ThirdTerm

The map shows the location of 1105 sites in the Caucasus. Progress 2 and Marinskaya 5 are located side by side at the southern edge of the Russian Steppe. Two Marinskaya 5 samples carried Y-DNA haplogroup L, which is rare in the north but common in South Asia and Mesopotamia. Ancient Maikop individuals carried Y-DNA haplogroups from the south such as J2a1, G2a2a and L. Maykop played a key role in the transfer of technical innovations and social alterations to the Russian Steppe and there were some genetic interactions along the way.

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As I remembered, we have already discussed this a few years ago. Wang paper and other archaeology paper concluded that steppe and north caucasus culture barely contacted each other. At that time steppe people was not mobile at all. Recent horse paper proved that also. I doubt that Maykop has technology. It is b/c they did not mine, but just finest metal products. As discussed before, steppe people buried wagon in grave, while north people bulls.
As I mentioned before, CHG seems to migrate from caspian sea east to ural where there was revolution like sintashta and mining. Lots of cattle and horse bones in Ural east are waiting for population geneticists who dig in and dig in only sintashta.

" Ural scientists discovered Neolithic mines in Western Siberia"
https://www.uarctic.org/news/2015/9/...tern%20Siberia.

Here is map with the settlements important for the mixture:

Attachment 13174

Berezhnovka is the place with highest amount of CHG/Iran so far, very far away from the north Caucasus(Progress), but just North of the Volga Delta.

I wonder (since long ago, but it's only guessing) if this ancient southern element could not have been from East Caspian regions rather than directly through Caucasus from South; or maybe from S-E Caspian shores and passed through the lower grounds of Eastern Caucasus, along W-Caspian sea shores... Phenotypes studies saw some ties between Steppic tribes of Yamna and Catacomb on one side with LN/Ch pop's of Western Europe and on another side with Southeastern Caspian pop's...? Only a game here.

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Originally Posted by Anfänger

Here is map with the settlements important for the mixture:

Attachment 13174

Berezhnovka is the place with highest amount of CHG/Iran so far, very far away from the north Caucasus(Progress), but just North of the Volga Delta.

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Before 4500bc, CHG seems to migrate steppe east and west. Central asia two samples 2000BC and 2700BC have no farmer admixture.


https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...narasimhan.jpg

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Originally Posted by MOESAN

I wonder (since long ago, but it's only guessing) if this ancient southern element could not have been from East Caspian regions rather than directly through Caucasus from South; or maybe from S-E Caspian shores and passed through the lower grounds of Eastern Caucasus, along W-Caspian sea shores... Phenotypes studies saw some ties between Steppic tribes of Yamna and Catacomb on one side with LN/Ch pop's of Western Europe and on another side with Southeastern Caspian pop's...? Only a game here.

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I know that phenotype studies are not as useful as genetic data but what were those results ?

It seems like people on AG refuted the Date of roughly 4400BC from the Patterson et al. 2022 preprint. I will update that part if the paper is peer-reviewed and a new date is proposed.

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Originally Posted by Anfänger

It seems like people on AG refuted the Date of roughly 4400BC from the Patterson et al. 2022 preprint. I will update that part if the paper is peer-reviewed and a new date is proposed.

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Based on what evidence?

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Originally Posted by Angela

Based on what evidence?

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Someone ran different models using DATES while using EHG+CHG/Iran_N as proxys and got a date of ~7000BC. I don´t know what to think about this, so i´ll wait till the paper is peer-reviewed and published.:wondering:

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Originally Posted by ThirdTerm

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...eneolithic.jpg

The map shows the location of 1105 sites in the Caucasus. Progress 2 and Marinskaya 5 are located side by side at the southern edge of the Russian Steppe. Two Marinskaya 5 samples carried Y-DNA haplogroup L, which is rare in the north but common in South Asia and Mesopotamia. Ancient Maikop individuals carried Y-DNA haplogroups from the south such as J2a1, G2a2a and L. Maykop played a key role in the transfer of technical innovations and social alterations to the Russian Steppe and there were some genetic interactions along the way.

Sample Site Age, BP Culture mtDNA Y-DNA
MK5008.B0101 Marinskaya 5 5185.5 Late Maykop T1a2 ?
MK5004 Marinskaya 5 5171.0 Late Maykop T2al L
MK5001 Marinskaya 5 5141.5 Late Maykop K1a4 L
I6268 Klady 5564.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya R1a J2a1
I6267 Klady 5438.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya T2c1
I6270 Klady 5434.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya U1b ?
I6266 Klady 5200.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya X2f J2a1
I6272 Dlinnaya Polyana 5200.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya U1b1 G2a2a

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there was exchange of skills and knowledge
but the gene flow was more or less limited to the exchange of brides between the Maykop and the steppe elites
if Indo-European genes and languages crossed the Caucasus it must have happened before the Maykop era
that is at least what I remember from this study

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anfänger

Someone ran different models using DATES while using EHG+CHG/Iran_N as proxys and got a date of ~7000BC. I don´t know what to think about this, so i´ll wait till the paper is peer-reviewed and published.:wondering:

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Sorry, now I'm getting confused.

Nick Patterson CREATED the DATES program, yes?

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...01.18.476710v1

Is this person on Anthrogenica claiming that Patterson doesn't know how to use his own program and he knows better? Or is he claiming that Patterson is using the wrong samples, or he doesn't know how to analyze them?

This all seems rather bizarre to me.

Also, isn't it now established that Dneiper Donets is NOT the ancestor of Yamnaya?

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Originally Posted by Angela

Sorry, now I'm getting confused.

Nick Patterson CREATED the DATES program, yes?

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...01.18.476710v1

Is this person on Anthrogenica claiming that Patterson doesn't know how to use his own program and he knows better? Or is he claiming that Patterson is using the wrong samples, or he doesn't know how to analyze them?

This all seems rather bizarre to me.

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This was the statement:

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Sure, there was a mix between a northern and a southern population around 4400-4000 BC, but what kind of southern population? Altvred managed to produce very similar dates when using ANF as a DATES reference and managed to produce far older dates for EHG and CHG mixing for the steppe_eneolithic samples. It might be worthwhile to read this.

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He is claiming that Patterson is using wrong samples. Patterson wrote a comment at that Blog:

Nick Patterson (Broad)January 24, 2022 at 10:41 AM
One clarification. The Yamnaya are genetically a mix of Eastern Hunter Gatherer related
and "Iranian" related but the relatedness should be interpreted very loosely. The 5th millennium
Caucasus is "Iranian" related but only distantly. @altvred "no visible archaeological trace"; how would you recognize it? The DATES paper is primarily methodological. A big paper on the 4th and 5th millennium is being worked on, and much much more evidence will be presented there.

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Also, isn't it now established that Dneiper Donets is NOT the ancestor of Yamnaya?

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Yes, it is. Dnieper-Donets never was good a candidate to be a major source for steppe peoples.

So, another typical anthrogenica jerk. Not surprised.

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Originally Posted by Anfänger

I know that phenotype studies are not as useful as genetic data but what were those results ?

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As sometimes I was imprecise. It concerned detailed Steppic tribes, but not exactly Catacomb nor Yamna. It concerned Alakul of Western Kazakhstan and the distances (metric) between them as a mean and other averaged tribes. In fact, on the top of ties with robust Steppic elements of EHG origin, as Kozincev said, these steppic pop's showed ties with western people; but these ties could concern as well EEF so southern;
it's true that the eastern 'med' element seems appearing too. And it could be more ancient than the EEF one, surely Chalco or post Chalco in the Steppes. I another tribe of Steppes he found some ties with a Kura-Araxes group, if my memory is good.
data to manipulate with "care".

Alakul, western Kazakhstan : early Catacomb,
Molochnaya (–1.35); Pit Grave, Ingulets (–0.36); early
Catacomb, Verkhne-Tarasovka, Lower Dnieper (0.44);
late Timber Grave, Volga–Ural area (0.54); Kemi-Oba,
Crimea (0.88).Nine-trait set:early Catacomb, Molochnaya
(–1.39); Pit Grave, Ingulets (–0.88); Timber Grave, ground
burials, Ukraine (–0.79), Pit Grave, Kakhovka, Lower
Dnieper (–0.67); Parkhay II, Turkmenia, Middle and Late
Bronze Age (–0.61); Tiszapolgar, Hungary, Chalcolithic,
5th–4th millennia BC (No.197) (–0.38); late Timber
Grave, Volga–Ural area (–0.16); Rössen, eastern France,
Neolithic, 5th millennium BC (No.43) (–0.09); Globular
Amphorae, Germany and Poland, Early Bronze Age (early
3rd millennium BC) (No.192)(–0.07); Timber Grave,
Ukraine, pooled (–0.03); Lengyel, Hungary, Neolithic,
5th millennium BC (No.40) (0.07); Meklenburg, Germany,
Early Bronze Age, 4th–3rd millennia BC (No.107) (0.07);
Aveyron, France, Early Bronze Age, 3rd century BC
(No.99) (0.09); Unetice, Germany and Czechia, Bronze
Age, 3rd–2nd millennia BC (No.208) (0.09); Linear Band
Pottery, Neolithic, 6th millennium BC (No.14) (0.11); Pit
Grave, Yuzhny Bug (0.20); Veterov, Austria, Bronze Age,
III–II millennia BC (No.205) (0.21).

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Originally Posted by Bekas

Sounds to me you're the typical neo-nazi apologist.



https://i.ibb.co/2tfVMKW/Screenshot-...or-Reality.png

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You must be on the wrong forum. If you still do not understand that the Nazis confused Aryans with Nordics...

More evidence for a homeland south of the Caucasus:

Here are the original (not simulated) samples from the Eneolithic Steppe:

Attachment 13180

Vonyuchka has close to double the amount of Iran_N than Progress. Let´s exclude the EHG-related signal and calculate the amount of Iran_N the southern ancestry of Vonyuchka might have.
Simple math: 14/40,5=0,345=34,5%

So, it's 34,5% Iran_N and maybe including some traces of Anatolian_N.
The southern ancestry of Vonyuchka is approximately: 65,5(CHG)+34.5%(Iran_N)
IMHO, that's enough Iran_N to conclude a homeland south of the CHGs.