Southern Ancestry in "Steppe"

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24-04-22, 15:45
Tomenable

^^^ You seem to be using some wrong version of Vahaduo? I was using the official one:

https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

And seriously here the Dutch average scores 0% of UKR_N. Use my SOURCE popiulations.
24-04-22, 15:46
Tomenable

Wow! One sample from the Finistere Department even scores below 35% Barcin_N:

Target: 29_Finist�re:EXPL0186

But most are within 35-40% range and a few slightly above 40% but less than 41%.

So I mill mark Finistere as 35-40% in my map (or just "below 40%").
24-04-22, 15:59
Northener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

^^^ You seem to be using some wrong version of Vahaduo? I was using the official one:

https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

And seriously here the Dutch average scores 0% of UKR_N. Use my SOURCE popiulations.

When I use your figures I get 100% West Eurasian.

So I took them separate.
24-04-22, 16:09
Northener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

^^^ You seem to be using some wrong version of Vahaduo? I was using the official one:

https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

And seriously here the Dutch average scores 0% of UKR_N. Use my SOURCE popiulations.

I took the west Eurasian out of it, and retouched the West Eurasian, and this is the result:

[url=https://postimages.org/]https://i.postimg.cc/dt08nCLn/Scherm...m-16-06-09.png[/url

And indeed in my case Ukraine_N disappears (like dad) in mothers case it's on a Danish level.
24-04-22, 16:39
Jovialis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northener

The NAZI Aryan theory was based on weird occult theories, especially framed by Herman Wirth:

IMO all esoteric bullshit. Nevertheless it caused for example the holocaust.

This 'Aryan type' was connected to the old classifiers Deniker, Eickstedt...Coon you name it with a 'Nordid' phenotype, blond, light pigmented dolio's. Those classifiers had mostly a racial biased agenda....

I guess Northwest Europeans are basically (muted) Bell Beakers. They had their cradle in the Rhine Delta, and spread all over the NW European place the Isles included. They were more than 50% Steppe and with a considerable amount of EEF and HG. Probably due to the mixture of Single Grave People that went about 2850 BC from central Europe to the North Sea and Rhine Delta were the met and mixed with the Funnelbeakers/ Michelberg people. They were in some regions pretty high in HG (see Blatterhöhle MN). Later on migrations probably enhanced the neolithic factor somewhat in some regions of NW Europe.

By the way those BB were not conform the 'Aryan' ideal type; they were brachycephalic and steephead (and like the Steppe types as a whole not per se blond blue eyed). Like some of their heirs that lived from Northern Germany/ North Dutch to Norway, but they didn't fit in the 'desired' Aryan picture of the racial classifiers.

Ok and about the claim of the Nazi's with regard to the Roman heritage. It's indeed like you said, they had a fascination for empires. And don't forget already Charles the Great claimed to Roman heritage already. Important Frankish/Rhineland cities like Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium (aka Cologne) and Aquae Granni (aka Aachen) Mogontiacum (aka Mainz) had a Roman blueprint. That's way they claimed "das dritte Reich".

It is indeed bullshit, it is basically like debating the high-fantasy at this point. They didn't have what we have today, and they were guided by a clear bias. I know there were other competing theories. I recall from a program I saw, the Aryan steppe theory became prominent after some theory with Pagan trees became unviable. There's also the theory they Aryan race came from an ice ball from outer-space. That sort of reminds me of the panspermia hypothesis, of tardigrades seeding life on plants. At any rate, let us get back on topic of Southern Ancestry in Steppe.
24-04-22, 16:42
Tomenable

OK here is a preliminary version.

Anatolia Neolithic admix in France by department. There are still many departments with no samples, I left them blank for now:
Marne Department has only one sample and it looks like an outlier with too much of Neolithic Farmer admixture for this latitude:

(lateer I will post an updated / final version in a new thread)

https://i.imgur.com/BbCbYsl.png
24-04-22, 16:47
Jovialis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

OK here is a preliminary version.

Anatolia Neolithic admix in France by department. There are still many departments with no samples, I left them blank for now:
Marne Department has only one sample and it looks like an outlier with too much of Neolithic Farmer admixture for this latitude:

(lateer I will post an updated / final version in a new thread)

https://i.imgur.com/BbCbYsl.png

I will not be convinced until I see an academic study confirm the rates.
24-04-22, 16:47
Tomenable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northener

When I use your figures I get 100% West Eurasian.

You just need to change the "Aggregate" option from YES to NO here:

https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

With Aggregate - YES you will score 100% West_Euraisan.

If you change to NO it will break down your results further.
24-04-22, 16:52
Tomenable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jovialis

I will not be convinced until I see an academic study confirm the rates.

And how much exactly do academic studies diverge from my map?

From what I've seen so far, G25 models usually produce very similar results to academic calculators.

If the same source populations are used while modelling, of course.

There is no academic study with as many regional samples (by department) as Jerome's Project has:

https://www.exploreyourdna.com/listes.aspx

^^^
He has published the data. Scroll to the bottom to "G25 Liste Explore Your DNA" and click Telecharger.
24-04-22, 16:59
Jovialis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

And how much exactly do academic studies diverge from my map?

From what I've seen so far, G25 models usually produce very similar results to academic calculators.

If the same source populations are used while modelling, of course.

There is no academic study with as many regional samples (by department) as Jerome's Project has:

https://www.exploreyourdna.com/listes.aspx

^^^
He has published the data. Scroll to the bottom to "G25 Liste Explore Your DNA" and click Telecharger.

How is that possible if it violates the maps and charts I presented from seminal studies and published works?
24-04-22, 17:13
Tomenable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jovialis

How is that possible if it violates the maps and charts I presented from seminal studies and published works?

In what way it violates them?

The maps you published were not based on actual DNA samples from every department.

The isolines in that map were automatically inferred based on DNA from only a few reions.

The map you posted is from 2015 and the first study which published DNA from many regions of France is Biagini 2019:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/718098v2.full

But even Biagini doesn't have as many regional samples as Jerome. And Biagini did not check genealogy of his samples.

I think Jerome should publish his findings after he finishes this Project, perhaps in cooparation with some scientist.
24-04-22, 17:17
Tomenable

Biagini 2019 samples have been converted to G25 coordinates so I will update my map taking them into account as well.

=====

Note that Jerome accepts into his project only people with all 4 grandparents born in the same department.

In Biagini's study samples were selected based on current place of residence without checking grandparents.
24-04-22, 17:38
Tomenable

Data by department shows that France, Corsica excluded, has a wide range of Anatolia_N from 60% in the SW to 35% in the NW.

Which is a pretty big range.

I don't have as much regional data for Poland as Jerome has for France, but I think in Poland there is also a wide range, 40-20%.
24-04-22, 17:40
Northener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

You just need to change the "Aggregate" option from YES to NO here:

https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

With Aggregate - YES you will score 100% West_Euraisan.

If you change to NO it will break down your results further.

Thanks, the result!

https://i.postimg.cc/T1Hvzsgt/Scherm...m-17-37-35.png
24-04-22, 17:54
Tomenable

^^^ Now you and your dad score like a typical North Dutch. Your mom seems more Danish-like (Frisian?).
24-04-22, 18:17
Northener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

^^^ Now you and your dad score like a typical North Dutch. Your mom seems more Danish-like (Frisian?).

No Dad is more coastal (Groningen), mom is from Drenthe that has the oldest populations of the Netherlands.

This is from a Frisian:
https://i.postimg.cc/Nf22FvF7/Scherm...m-18-07-27.png

Angles made this for me:

Quote:

right pops:
Villabruna
Vestonice16
Ust_Ishim_published.DG
Kostenki14.SG
GoyetQ116-1_udg_published
MA1.SG
GanjDareh
BOT14.SG
Kostenki
S_Mbuti-3.DG
A_Papuan-16.DG
A_Han-4.DG
Andaman.SG

left pops:
NorthenerDad_NL
Denmark_IA
Ansarve_Megalithic (I wanted to have a "farmer" source. The choice of Ansarve can be disputed, but anyway, according to the results the question has no real importance ...)

best coefficients: 1.025 -0.025
totmean: 1.025 -0.025
boot mean: 1.027 -0.027
std. errors: 0.100 0.100
fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 11 5.192 0.921515 1.025 -0.025 infeasible
01 1 12 5.260 0.948719 1.000 0.000
10 1 12 113.107 1.45072e-18 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.921515 - -
best pat: 01 0.948719 chi(nested): 0.068 p-value for nested model: 0.793938

left pops:
Northenermum_NL
Denmark_IA
Ansarve_Megalithic

best coefficients: 0.984 0.016
totmean: 0.984 0.016
boot mean: 0.986 0.014
std. errors: 0.097 0.097

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 11 6.040 0.870674 0.984 0.016
01 1 12 6.066 0.912698 1.000 0.000
10 1 12 122.121 2.33258e-20 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.870674 - -
best pat: 01 0.912698 chi(nested): 0.026 p-value for nested model: 0.871204

The p-values of the nested models are astronomic. According to this analysis Northerner parents are "pure" Danish from the Iron Age. Btw Denmark_IA is for the three individuals from Margaryan. Of course I used imputed genomes for Northener's parents (947035 SNPs). For the experts, I've taken the risk to keep the transitions.

I guess this is quit accurat.
24-04-22, 18:59
Tomenable

Haute Garonne samples form Biagini 2019 fall within 50-55% Anatolia_N range.

I marked Haute Garonne as 55-60% based on samples from Jerome's Project.
24-04-22, 19:09
Tomenable

Biagini 2019 study has many samples, but they cover only 7 departments in total:

- PdD samples names starting with C = Auvergne, Puy-de-Dome department
- HG samples names starting with T = Occitanie, Haute Garonne department
- BdR samples names starting with S = Provence, Marseille (Bouches-du-Rhone)
- IeV names starting with B = Rennes Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine department
- BR samples names starting with A = Alsace, Bas-Rhin department
- NO names starting with N = Hauts de France, Nord department
- PAR samples (names without letter) = from the city of Paris
24-04-22, 19:12
Flann Fina

Thanks for the calculator:

Target: Flann_scaled
Distance: 4.0932% / 0.04093182

41.4 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
40.6 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.2 West_Eurasian:WHG_I18752.
2.8 West_Eurasian:NOR_Meso
24-04-22, 19:26
Tomenable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northener

I guess this is quit accurat.

But it seems he did not include any ancient populations from the Netherlands in this analysis.

So you scored "pure Danish". Maybe if ancient NL was included, you would score differently.
24-04-22, 20:12
Northener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

But it seems he did not include any ancient populations from the Netherlands in this analysis.

So you scored "pure Danish". Maybe if ancient NL was included, you would score differently.

That would be a question indeed. If only....

How reasonable is it that it surpasses this result??

best coefficients: 0.984 0.016
totmean: 0.984 0.016
boot mean:0.986 0.014

Ok only 100% is better:bigsmile:
24-04-22, 20:30
torzio

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

OK here is a preliminary version.

Anatolia Neolithic admix in France by department. There are still many departments with no samples, I left them blank for now:
Marne Department has only one sample and it looks like an outlier with too much of Neolithic Farmer admixture for this latitude:

(lateer I will post an updated / final version in a new thread)

https://i.imgur.com/BbCbYsl.png

map looks like the linguistic split of french languages .................L'Oil ......french and frankish ( german ) mix and
L'Oc french and italian/catalan mix
24-04-22, 21:22
Tomenable

^^^ Here is updated version: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Maps-of-France
27-04-22, 15:01
Tomenable

Check please my new "World 10,000 Years Ago" calculator here:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...o-K42-G25-calc

BTW - I wonder if Crimean Hunter-Gatherers were CHG-related or related to UKR_Meso (I think they could be CHG-like, it is possible):

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ew_from_Crimea

Location of sites inhabited by Crimean Hunter-Gatherers:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_301566524

Shan-Koba (1), Murzak-Koba (2), Fat'ma-Koba (3), Grot Skalist'iy (4), Shpan-Koba (5), Laspi 7 (6), BBBP-2 and MM-2 (7)

https://i.imgur.com/t80pPrI.png

^^^
And prehistoric Kuban region could also be inhabited by a CHG-like population - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban
05-05-22, 21:47
Tomenable

New previously unknown Proto-Yamnaya group is discovered:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.04.490594v1

"We identify hitherto genetically undescribed hunter-gatherers from the Middle Don region that contributed ancestry to the later Yamnaya steppe pastoralists."

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