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Hi Archetype0ne, I will try for clades with YFULL Albanian "flag". First, I really want to precise that this approach to track haplogroup make sense only when there is an "expansion" of the population. Basically, between two demographic "booms" we are blind. Thus, for specific entrance in...

Regarding a link between proto-Illyrians and J-L283. I think that worded that way, it is not a "good" question. First, because J-L283 started to spread around 3500BC whereas Illyrian ethnogenesis is more around ~1200BC. Second because Illyrians were all but an homogeneous group, therefore even...

Hi, The ratio is not that much informative neither ... because it is very sensitive to founder effects. The proper way to study modern distributions is to perform an analysis in space and time considering diversity evolution. Thus 1000 samples can just count as 1 if at a given "t" you are...

Hi Trojet, I do agree that modern distribution only is unsufficient (many thing can happen, including uni-directionnal diffusion, population replacement, ...), what was important in my post was the timescale. From 900 to 500BC there is ~45 surviving branches of Z631 who started. This is a big...

Yet, there is no such demonstration that is valid. In fact, there is contradictory hints: 1- basal clades in caucasus and Croatian sample with high steppe admixture from 3500BP hinting toward a caucasian origin. 2- Steppe-less basal Nuragic Sardinia clades and the dynamic of L283 dispersal...

I agree with that, the overdensity of L283 in southern Germany is still there even when normalizing by the total number of DNA tests. Thus, this over-density cannot be explained by a sampling bias, but does represent something. Plus, south Germany/Chzecia/Austria are "old" diversity centers for...

Hi, This cluster is mainly under J-Z631 and even more precisely J-Z1043 (It starts an intense diversification around 800BC, ~45 branches starting betwenn 900 and 500BC for J-Z631 subclades), most of the subclades are found here or centered on this location. Location (south Germany, Swiss...

Hi, The moment of diversification of the haplogroup doesn't line-up with romans. Z631 expanded around 2800BP not 2000BP. Some subclades may have been "redistributed" by romans, but expansion of this population hapenned earlier. In fact, there is little expansion of the Z631 sub-clades during...

For sure I would "love" a 6000BP sample, either Trypillian or Steppe related, because, yeh, it would mainly close the discussion. But I'm not rising my expectations too high, if something appears I expect it to be in the range 5500-5000BP. We just have to wait and see ... first if something...

Hopefully, but I have the bad feeling that[/COLOR] if the "spoiled" Moldovan sample pops out, it will be from a late Trypillian site with mixed ancestry (Old-Europe/Steppe) :laughing:, it would be too easy to get a clear solution.

Negative to Z2507, it splitted from the Z631 line around 2400BC. Thus, not relevant for a potential Z631-La Tène relation. Anyway, this Z597 sample is a very good example to illustrates my position against ancient DNA to track rare haplogroups ... you need to be super-lucky. If in a large list...

Yep, that was my main concern ... "teleporting" Indians there in 500BC would be "surprising" (and them having to vanish totally before modern times would be weird too). Are you familiar with this software ? Because the output sounds not very intuitive to me. What kind of information is...

That's very interesting ... a lot of J-Z2432 and subclades ... Is there any list with the GPS coordinates of the samples ? Oh sure, it remains a model, that can be proven wrong. J-L283 peoples ... probably the best guys at playing hide-and-seek in Europe since Bronze age ...

On top of the modern distribution, there is the moment at which the concerned descendents started to diverge. To experience an intense diversification sequence, an haplogroup needs to be carried by an expanding population, nearly ~20 branches expanded from Z631 around 800BC, that's a lot. A...

hi, That is what is tricky with this haplogroup, there is very contradictory infos about it. The easiest explaination for me is to put L283 bottle-neck exit on the coast of the black sea inside a population without steppe admixture. Admixture-washing is not a very common process. Moldova is...

Hi, For me they are related, especially the J-Z631 subclade of J-L283 do have a spatial distribution and a timscale of diversification for descendent haplogroups fitting very well with Hallstatt/La Tene dispersion. Thus, J-Z631 was likely among central-European "Keltoi" peoples.

For J-L283, haplogroup distribution (Y21045 clade, very specific of Albania) seems to indicates an arrival around ~4000BP. Many other clades seems to have been injected in western Balkans around ~2000BP, which could coincide with either Celtic or Roman-empire related events. My personnal view is...