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Just as an exemple, do we know if the Cogotas R1b-DF27 falls into modern DF27 branches or is it a dead lineage branch? If it's a dead one, what does it have different than Z2103 samples from the Steppe? Yes you maybe right about R1a-M417, but before we had ancient dna of them, people used to...

You keep comparing modern branches and considering prehistoric ones as " extinct ". People did the same with Villabruna or Iron_Gates / Baltic HG's. Let me just resume on what your hypothesis is holding taking ancient dna in account. Because there is no R1b ante-3000 BC in Anatolia, South...

I think my point is that i dont believe M269 was in Balkans or Steppe, came to Anatolia or South of the Caucasus and back migrate to Steppe again. If L23 and Z2103 are born in Armenia, then L51 probably also, but a thing to keep in mind, if Z2103 was 4000BC in Armenia, its genetic signature...

Its only relevant in the way that, if we would only have modern V1636 samples, our primary deduction would be it came from Anatolia, while it is now found in Khvalynsk Culture and North Caucasus ante-4000 BC while it is found in prehistoric South Caucasus in Late Kura-Araxes only 2600-2400 BC...

Well its clear already 5000BC that Pontic Steppe and South Caucasus are exchanging females via the mtdna results we have cf. ( H2a1 in Khvalynsk and H2a1a in Sredny Stog and maybe y-dna such as J1* in Karelia. I dont think any R1b and G population ( together ) ever existed anywhere. I think J2b...

1) Smal from Anthrogenica made calls for this paper several times ago here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wkLjTA856nW6On8Q10U-WrhyTBWlwCVdK6AMQFCfIaw/edit#gid=202340943. Im not sure if the calls are from him or the authors, but i'm pretty sure they are not wrong. Also about...

But let me just summarize your hypothesis here: You believe the R1b-Z2103* from prehistoric steppe is a dead lineage, somehow related with the " Z2103 european basal branche " that separated from " multiple South Caucasus Z2103 basal branches " before Yamnaya Culture? If so, what is your...

I read the paper and a litte bit of the posts but i'm out of touch with this paper. Can someone make me a little summary of the community conclusions? Especially about Etruscans?

What does it means?

I have hard time to imagine that the 400-200 BC Scythians Z2103 samples that we have are not somehow related with any modern branches of Z2103. According to Maciamo then itself according to FTDNA: - L584 (including L943) : found mostly in the South Caucasus, Turkey, Iraq and Iran, but also...

Do what you do and what you want. I will just not follow the same path. The real importance is to know why we are, individualy doing it for.

This old study has to be analyzed and observed in different angles. Especially considering 1) their datas 2) their conclusion 3) the relation of both 1 and 2 points with the ancient dna that we have since 2012. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3286660/

You are starting to show impatience over the topic like " you want it to be south of the caucasus ". Bias can be hard times. If nobody would have ramble on the Hajji Firuz R1b-Z2103, we probably would have accepted the idea that this was the " ancestor of yamnaya guys " like Markod said...

Because, 1) How would R1b-Z2103 ( if it was born and came from South Caucasus ) and with a majority of Farmer mtdna, be that high in EHG ancestry? 2) R1 did cross Caucasus but in Chalcolithic-EBA transition when it became by founder effect and conquest one of the new lineage of late...

High tolerance for alcohol? Born the wrong decade... :(

I think the guys from the paper clearly said that there was a distinction between Maykop and Maykop Steppe ( wich is why the distinction " Steppe Maykop " ) both in ancestry and y-dna. As for ethnic and linguistic, i'm not sure, mtdna of Maykop Steppe is clearly linked with the southern fellows...

The R1 individual you are mentionning is not from Maykop Proper, but Steppe Maykop, whatever it means on an archeological stand point. And it makes sense for R1 to be in North Caucasus at this point in time, because it's everywhere in Eastern Europe for milleniums prior to it. Also there is a...

I think it's pretty clear, it's not about R1b, it's about ancient dna. Nothing can explain history better than ancient dna. We will never found the perfect proxys. Modern branches are too diversified and had too much founder effect to be relevant of any kind. If a south caucasus R1b-Z2103 needs...

If you say so i guess. Your window for the formation of Z2103 in Armenia is contemporary with Areni in Armenia ( No R1b ), then the same contemporary population founded Maykop later ( No R1b ). We are then searching a population that never exister for now in ancient DNA, maybe one day it will...

I think you clearly understimate what happens between, let's sayin, Yamnaya and 2K19. Everything nowadays have nothing to do with what happens to those times. You are saying you are not interested in Z2103* but then you take the conclusion over modern samples to dictate were it should be at the...