Let's talk about the election results

Mikecash is probably the only Bush supporter on this thread because the other 51% of the American population probably don't feel the need to go on a rant about it on forums, and plus considering the extreme anti-bush bias of this forum, it's no real surprise really that the Bush supporters don't particular feel like posting here.

I'm pretty sure plenty of intelligent, sane people voted for Bush. He did even better than he did four years ago, even with the high voter turn-out. So I don't think he was lucky, he just had a better team. Consider the alternative the American poeple had, it's no wonder 51% of them voted Bush.

Fantt said:

I don't really want that either, but I would like to see Europe become stronger and show that their economic systems aren't all that inferior to our own.

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Of course it isn't. There are more millionaires in US$ in the EU than in the US.

National Geographic says that there are 2,6 million millionaires in Europe against 2,3 million in the US.

This was for the rich. Now let's have a look at the poor. The official poverty level in the US is 12,7%, which is more than China (10%) or Thailand (12,5%). Many countries are missing from my stats, but France has 6,4% and Belgium 4%.

Having a look at child poverty, the UNICEF report shows that the US has the highest level for any developed country. A startling 22,4% of American children live in 'relative poverty' (i.e. the household income is below 50% of the national median).

Have a look at the stats by yourself. Most European countries have a child poverty level under 10%, with Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Belgium and Luxembourg having only between 2,5% and 5,1%, then the Netherlands (7,7%), France (7,9%), Germany (10,7%). Even Japan is higher than the EU average with 12,2%. The only worrisome countries in Europe are Italy (20,5%), the UK (19,8%) and Ireland (16,8%), but still under US levels.

The Gini index shows that there is a greater degree of inequality in the distribution of family income in the US than in any other developed country. The stats go from the most equal country at 21,7 to the least equal at 62,9. The higher the number and the more triangluar the society. Most European countries have a score between 25 and 32. Japan scores 24,9 and Sout Korea 31,6. The USA score 40,8. In other words that means that there are more social inequalities in the US than in caste-system India (37,8) or the very economically divided China (40). Canada, with a system more similar to the US one, scores 31,5, in the EU average.

In addition, most European enjoy completely free education from kindergarten to university and completely or almost free medical care. The Euro has gone up from 0,8US$ in early 2001 when Bush became president to 1,3US$ now. That is a 60% increase. American have become 60% poorer compared to Europeans during Bush's first term.

So what does the EU have to prove to the US in terms of economic success ? Maybe it is time for American to realise that their system isn't the best just because it is American.

Well said Tateishi.

Most Americans voted conservative out of some "moral" conviction- That republicans represent core traditional values (hence the whole anti-gay marriage thing), and security and certainty in a time of fear and uncertainty.

My rant: The other 49% disagree. Most americans- even those who count themselves "compassionate conservatives" and moderates hold a lot of liberal views. The Democrats lost it, and lost it ten years ago when millions of angry white southerners started deserting the party. I think it began twenty years ago when Reagan made Liberal a bad word- and rather than fight this nonsense, the DNC surrendered its agenda for the next two decades.

Sigh...

sabro said:

Well said Tateishi.
Most Americans voted conservative out of some "moral" conviction-

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Do these moral convinction include increasing the poverty level and gao between the rich and the poor ? (see my post just above).

Why does noone like Bush, don't you think the war was somewhat needed? I am glad I live in a country where I don't have to be forced to work at certain places and stuff. I like to have freedoms. Then again, I am only 15, and I am not nearly as educated as you guys! I like bush because I don't beleive in abortion and I don't believe in Gay Rights. Not nessecarily Gay Rights, but Gay Marriage I don't like. I am sorrounded by a bunch of Kerry supporters. As far as the foreign countries ago, I care what they think, but then again I don't. I am glad that the president that we, meaning the people who voted because I can't, voted Bush because I think he handled 9-11 pretty well. The war wasn't started for no reason, right? Well I am still trying to figure it all out. But while I know what I do, Go Bush!

Brad

Lina Inverse said:

It's very sad that there are apparently not enough sane people left in the US kashii:
But if they think watching the deficit reaching new record heights is fun...
What's next? Attacking some more Far East countries just for fun? After outlawing homo marriage, outlawing homosexuality in general and interning them in concentration camps? kashii:
I'm glad I only see the US going down the drain from far away. :haihai:

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I have this to add. LOL. What do you mean by "What's next? Attacking some more Far East countries just for run?" Hussein was a threat, right? I think that people in Iraq feel somewhat better that he is gone. I am glad that the captured him. Also, considering I am the only Christian on the board, I don't like gay marriage anyway. That's why I like Bush :balloon: lol.

How did I end hanging out with non-christians. I mean, I know it's your choice and you beliefs, but my friend who got me into Japan isn't a christian. I love being a christian and knowing God. It just seems weird that everyone who isn't "popular" or "in", the ones who are "geeky" or "dorky", are usually non believers... Isn't that somewhat odd?

Maciamo- Your post is awesome. I didn't see it before my last one.

"Do these moral convinction include increasing the poverty level and gap between the rich and the poor ? (see my post just above)."

Yes, apparently they do. That's why we give tax cuts to the rich in the middle of a war and record federal deficits. That's why we line the pockets of oil companies and give incentives to big businesses. We also cut funding for education and emergency services and veto pay raises for combat soldiers. "Moral" seems to mean Ant-gay, pro-gun, anti-abortion, pro-rich, anti-poor. It means we can sit up on our high moral hill and look down at all the poor imoral little people.

BamFan2989- Bless you child.
May God protect you as Bush mortgages your future, drafts you, and sends you to the next "oops I guess the intelligence was wrong" pre-emptive foreign adventure. As for Bush handling 9-11...he certainly kept that elementary school calm with his confused demeanor (for how many minutes?) Now more people hate us, terrorists are lined up around the block to sign up and even our allies feel alienated, slighted, and to use the French term-- pissed off. But at least those style concious guys next door won't actually "marry" each other. Thank God for your freedoms-- especially those not taken away by the USA PATRIOT act.

BTW your not alone- there are a lot of Christians here. Not all Christians are Republicans. (Was Jesus a republican?)

Check out the onion's newest humor on the election:

National Museum Of The Middle Class Opens

The war wasn't started for no reason, right?

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Yes, but what exactly the reasons are is subject of debate. Oil? Security? Money? If you're like me and the minority, we believe the war is suspect at best. So, read as much as you can, listen as much as you can, and make an informed choice.

The personal religious comments are better left in another thread, I think. Unless you want to comment on religion's direct connection to the election.

Do these moral convinction include increasing the poverty level and gao between the rich and the poor ?

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No directly, but conservatives generally favor financial poverty that promotes the gap. Remember "ReagaNomics?" "Trickle down" my ass.

sabro said:

BTW your not alone- there are a lot of Christians here. Not all Christians are Republicans. (Was Jesus a republican?)

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Not all Christians are Republicans, but could it be that almost all Republicans are Christians ?

NOTE-
Let's try our best to refrain from personal attacks on beliefs here. We're doing great so far. I'd hate to see it go downhill. Disagree, but do it respectfully.

Btw- One of my good friends is a Christian Fundamentalist who voted for Bush. I think he's nuts, but he thinks I am, too.

BamaFan2989 said:

I am glad I live in a country where I don't have to be forced to work at certain places and stuff.

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What country are you thinking about ? China ?

I like to have freedoms.
...
I like bush because I don't beleive in abortion and I don't believe in Gay Rights. Not nessecarily Gay Rights, but Gay Marriage I don't like.

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You are such a selfish hypocrite ! You like having freedom but you don't want others to have some. You would refuse gay the same rights as other people, even though nobody choose to be gay (it's decided before birth, and has been proven). You refuse people who have different beliefs than yours to have the freedom to choose adoption if they wish or need to.

Anyway, it is not the president who makes these laws, but Congress or each State individually, so be it Bush or Kerry it doesn't matter much. That is why I can't believe that the average American is so narrow-minded as not to see the real issues instead of sticking to limiting other people's freedom about such trivial things as marriage or abortions. If it were up to me, there would be no marriage to anyone, but only civil unions. Much easier like that !

The real issues that make Bush a bad and dangerous president is that :
- he creates political tensions at the international level
- he make new enemies for the US and thus increase the risk of terrorism
- he attacks countries that didn't threaten the US, resulting in tens of thousands of deaths
- he create the largest public deficit ever for the US
- he increases unemployment and poverty within the US (thus increasing the crime rate and insecurity), while making the very rich (I am only talking about millionaires in US$) even richer.
- he limits people rights and freedom to choose on issues that are widely accepted in other developed countries (eg. abortion).

These are the real issues, much much more important than caring about whether a minorty of people should have the right to get married or whether the president attends church regularily.

What do you mean by "What's next? Attacking some more Far East countries just for run?" Hussein was a threat, right?

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Not more than the Pope in Rome. Iraq had no capability of attacking or even menacng the US, and even Rumsfeld has admitted it - months after the invasion of Iraq !

Maciamo- you do know that BamaFan is 15 right?

sabro said:

Maciamo- you do know that BamaFan is 15 right?

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Yes, old enough to know these things and understand the situation. Wel, when I was 15, I was... kashii:
Anyway, sometimes a good straight talk open people's minds.

I think when I was 15 I was a raving right wing conservative...but when I turned 16-- aahh I became a utopian Christian socialist. Now I am old and tired and my candidate lost and my political party is drifting around like a blind jackass.

mad pierrot said:

NOTE-
Let's try our best to refrain from personal attacks on beliefs here. We're doing great so far. I'd hate to see it go downhill. Disagree, but do it respectfully.

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Yes. Please play nice.

Btw- One of my good friends is a Christian Fundamentalist who voted for Bush. I think he's nuts, but he thinks I am, too.

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Heh, me too, mad p. One of my friends is a preacher at the Church of Christ. We both know that we don't agree with each other on this, and that's why we stay away from the topic...

And yes, it's possible for me to have a preacher as a friend...

All I can say is "God bless corporate America."

I'm ecstatic that Bush won. I can't wait for the poor to get even poorer and the rich to get even richer. Oh, and for that swelling deficit in the budget, I hope Bush will do his best to increase it to magnificent proportions. I'm especially looking forward to the non-existant social security funds, the failing health-care system, worker exploitation, and the rights of the people being slowly taken away to ensure freedom.

Oh! And of course to kill or to send anyone with a beard and a turban to Guatanamo Bay, because they possess weapons of mass destruction and even if they don't, they were thinking about WMD's.

On a more serious note, I am totally against Bush's anti-gay marriage policy because it is against the fundamental ideas of America. All people are equal and to take away the right of marriage of some people just because of their sexual orientation is wrong.

Thomas Jefferson says it pretty nicely:

"We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Maciamo said:

You are such a selfish hypocrite ! You like having freedom but you don't want others to have some. You would refuse gay the same rights as other people, even though nobody choose to be gay (it's decided before birth, and has been proven). You refuse people who have different beliefs than yours to have the freedom to choose adoption if they wish or need to.

Anyway, it is not the president who makes these laws, but Congress or each State individually, so be it Bush or Kerry it doesn't matter much. That is why I can't believe that the average American is so narrow-minded as not to see the real issues instead of sticking to limiting other people's freedom about such trivial things as marriage or abortions. If it were up to me, there would be no marriage to anyone, but only civil unions. Much easier like that !

The real issues that make Bush a bad and dangerous president is that :
- he creates political tensions at the international level
- he make new enemies for the US and thus increase the risk of terrorism
- he attacks countries that didn't threaten the US, resulting in tens of thousands of deaths
- he create the largest public deficit ever for the US
- he increases unemployment and poverty within the US (thus increasing the crime rate and insecurity), while making the very rich (I am only talking about millionaires in US$) even richer.
- he limits people rights and freedom to choose on issues that are widely accepted in other developed countries (eg. abortion).

These are the real issues, much much more important than caring about whether a minorty of people should have the right to get married or whether the president attends church regularily.



Not more than the Pope in Rome. Iraq had no capability of attacking or even menacng the US, and even Rumsfeld has admitted it - months after the invasion of Iraq !

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Well see, that's the difference between you ane me. I am a Christian and you are not(if you are then you fooled me). If you are then you might understand something that I talk about. I don't like the fact, that in my opinion, that people who are marrying the same sex left and right are going to hell. BTW, just in case someone says "Why do you say they auto. go to hell?" Read Romans...

A selfish hypocrite, no I am just trying not to enforce my beliefs on others, and I am trying to reach those "with a political tool." Obviously more peple in america like Bush. The only reason there was a scare that Kerry might have one was because he won Cali. That's why the Electoral College sucks to me.
It's prob because LA( Just kidding, that was mean but funny I thought.)

I could call you a selfish hypocrite then, because are beliefs are different? That's retarded! That's why we have beliefs... Like one friend who told em once (He isn't Christians, shreek shreek shreek) What is the difference between Eric Rudolph and doctors in the abortion clinic? I agree with that some. The doctors were killing innocent lives too. What if the baby had a chance to speak up?

Sabro- I never said Jesus was a Republican. I didn't want to vote for Bush just because he was. Sometimes candidates change some views right, I mean look at Kerry lol. I like the person. I don't agree with Kerry on his religion, so I like Bush naturally.

Mad Pierrot- Religion is very important in Politics right? Christians don't want the pres. not to be Christian most of the time. Most people vote, obviously, for who their beliefs "match up" with. BEWARE: There is no perfect candidate. And what is up with people saying "Just vote for the less of the two evils?" Just remember he will be running your country.

What were Kerry's plans, he forget to mention them in the debate.



(Please note: My post was just here to start a debate type thing. I don't mean to offend anyone, but everyone with their own beliefs, we can't compromise all the time. Please note I am not an Eric Rudolph supporter. LOL. I am trying to respect each other's religion, beliefs or whatever. Not to say you aer wrong I am right. Thanks!)

RockLee said:

It's so sad...like almost WHOLE Europe wouldn't want Bush to be re-elected either...doesn't that count for something? I think the americans have been brainwashed by that ***** a little too much...tis sad :worried:

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What Europe wants or doesn't want is entirely irrelevant, believe it or not.

Kamisama said:

That's actually not a bad idea, seeing as how everyone is a fool down South.

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As a Southerner I must be a fool.

What the losing side in this election fails to realize (among other things) is the large degree of backlash all this Bush hating and elitist, condescending, dismissive attitude toward those of us with differing political views generated.

From where I stand, the percentage of the American electorate who "just don't get it" is approximately 48%.

(And if I wrote as incoherently as some people, I would be more circumspect in tossing around appellations like "fool")

ippolito said:

US citizen has choosed Bush....
I consider a dangerous act as he did not anything to resolve the palestinians
problems..as Clinton did.....all the problems have originin from this eternal war between israel and palestina.....it is a chain....islamic are defending the palestina
and us israel....Bush has behind him the jewish economical power.....
you (amricans) risk that all this wars will be a never ending story

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Here's a little suggestion: How about the Israelis and the Palestineans stop looking to outside powers to resolve their internal conflict? I am sick to death of hearing about your problems. If you can't put aside your long history of hatred and distrust on your own initiative, why is it incumbent on others to try to do it for you?

I am not happy with the election results either, as I would have liked to see Kerry in the White House (like most Europeans) . HOwever, no need to sit and complain about it.
Now it's Bush again for four more years, and I just hope that his second administration would be more conciliatory in character, which is more in my taste, compared to the first administration. - I will like to believe he (and his entourage) can do it. E.g. when comparing with the Reagan years, his first period in office was "to clean up and be harsh," and his second term his administration was more conciliatory and he got more supporters with the second term in office.-Maybe because Reagan knew he had many opponents from this first term....

Anyway, these were just my comments....
We can't do anything about the results, Bush has won, let's accept it and move on and hope Bush's second term will not be like the first.... :balloon: .

Wow, that deadens the thread. lol. I don't care either though. I like either, but I didn't like Kerry being a contradictoin to his religion. Arigatou guys!

BamaFan2989 said:

I could call you a selfish hypocrite then, because are beliefs are different?

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No you can't because I am not gay, don't have any gay friends, don't care about somebody's right to marry and think little of abortion, but I am ready to support the freedom of these people just for the sake of freedom of choice. That is the opposite of being selfish, and I am certainly not a hypocrite since I say so frankly and openly.

What if the baby had a chance to speak up?

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That is where anti-abortionist are wrong. Abortion laws in any developed country set a limit in the foetus development (about 8 to 12 weeks). Until that time, the brain has not yet developed, and we cannot therefore consider the foetus as a human yet. A 2 month foetus is not even the size of a mouse, and without functional brain. If you are against abortion, you must be a Jainist who believes that any animal is sacred, or the tiniest insect, and that it is a sin to kill any of them. If that is your belief, then I will have much more respect for you and accept that people would want to ban abortion. If that is because you think that it equals to murdering a human being, then I must object.

Think about this too : "Is a woman who miscarries accused of manslaughter for doing so ?"

Religion is very important in Politics right?

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This idea that religion naturally plays a role in politics is unique to American people, among developed countries.Actually, even the US Constitution (1st Article) says that state (=politics) and religion should be separated. Most American think and act (when they vote) in a way that blatantly soils the spirit of the Founding Fathers of the USA. If you love the America of freedom of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson (who incidentally was not Christian) and John Adams, then you must not mix religion and politics. Any American that proudly celebrate July 4th and voted for Bush or any politcian because of religious issue is a hypocrite (or complete ignorant that should stay at home rather than vote).

mikecash said:

What Europe wants or doesn't want is entirely irrelevant, believe it or not.

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Tell me frankly. Do you know that the US has been interacting and manipulating elections around the world since the end of WWII, most notably in Japan, Italy, Greece, and many South American countries. If you do, do you agree with this practice, supported by about all president since then, and again now by Bush in Afghanistan and Iraq (not to mention politcial bribes to create a "coalition" to invade Iraq). If you do agree, what kind of person are you to say that Americans have the right to tamper with other countries' politics, but nobody in the entire world should try to influence US politics. FYI, politics, and more particularily presidential election, is not just a domestic affair, but a matter of international importance, with sometimes heavy consequences on other countries' economy or politics.