Yamnayan decline

Pip

Banned
Messages
630
Reaction score
68
Points
0
Data suggests a decline or collapse of Yamnayan populations in the Central Steppe during the late third millennium BC, and its replacement by (for want of a better expression) Indo-Aryan types, approximately as below:
Samara 3,000 BC -100% Yamnayan
to Poltavka 2,400 BC - 60% Yamnayan
to Potapovka 2,200 BC - 30% Yamnayan
to Sintashta 2,000 BC - 1% Yamnayan

Does anyone have any data or other information/suggestions about this?
 
Data suggests a decline or collapse of Yamnayan populations in the Central Steppe during the late third millennium BC, and its replacement by (for want of a better expression) Indo-Aryan types, approximately as below:
Samara 3,000 BC -100% Yamnayan
to Poltavka 2,400 BC - 60% Yamnayan
to Potapovka 2,200 BC - 30% Yamnayan
to Sintashta 2,000 BC - 1% Yamnayan

Does anyone have any data or other information/suggestions about this?
I think it is b/c of "Tin bronze" seima turbino which has been killed by all scholars. Especially Anthony said that SM main industry was "fishing and hunting."
I need opinion about the relationship between Abashevo and SM, which will solve everything.
Kuzmina stated that andronovo expansion was closely related with Tin bronze expansion. So who competed with SM tin bronze?

Model-of-the-proposed-spread-of-socketed-axes-from-east-to-west-At-present-radiocarbon.png

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...to-west-At-present-radiocarbon_fig1_289671485

seima-turbino-phenomenon-parpola.jpg

https://indo-european.eu/tag/seima-turbino/
 
Moreover, MLBA Andronovo east has more EHG than MLBA steppe west and LBA steppe- zevakinski most EHG among them. I think it means some EHG R1a-z93 would survive in siberia until late bronze.

yamna-migrations-indo-iranian.png
 
Data suggests a decline or collapse of Yamnayan populations in the Central Steppe during the late third millennium BC, and its replacement by (for want of a better expression) Indo-Aryan types, approximately as below:
Samara 3,000 BC -100% Yamnayan
to Poltavka 2,400 BC - 60% Yamnayan
to Potapovka 2,200 BC - 30% Yamnayan
to Sintashta 2,000 BC - 1% Yamnayan

Does anyone have any data or other information/suggestions about this?

the 4.2 ka climate change had a lot to do with Yamna decline
 
Moreover, MLBA Andronovo east has more EHG than MLBA steppe west and LBA steppe- zevakinski most EHG among them. I think it means some EHG R1a-z93 would survive in siberia until late bronze.

yamna-migrations-indo-iranian.png
This chart seems to show Yamnaya as a dead-end, apart from in admixture with 'Steppe MLBA Cloud' (Corded Ware/Sintashta).

This looks about right by yDNA and autosomally. Remaining Yamnaya seems to have morphed into Poltavka; it largely retained R1b-Z2103, but was affected by admixture with surrounding populations (including Siberians and Corded Ware/Sintashta-related people). By 2,250 BC, its genetic contribution to the region was collapsing, and its paternal lineages had been replaced by R1a-M417.

One question is - was Yamnayan DNA displaced or eliminated? My suggestion is that it was substantially displaced southwards and over some period between 2,600 BC and 2,200 BC:
1. Autosomal analysis of Bronze Age Armenia indicates that Steppe-like people with similar yDNA and aDNA to Poltavka arrived there at some point between 2,600 and 1,500 BC.
2. R1b-Z2103 has been found in the Northern Caucasus dated to the first half of the third millennium BC.
3. yDNA phylogeny in Armenia suggests that there was a wide coverage of basal Z2103 subclades included in this move, perhaps making a date at the early end of this range more likely. Estimates are that these subclades branched away from each other before 3,000 BC, but still coalesce to the Caucasus.

It looks like some surviving Yamnayan populations largely headed South, partly under pressure from R1a-M417 people (who had almost completely replaced them, paternally and autosomally, by 2,000 BC) and - as Bicicleur points out - partly due to climate change. The climate change did not seem to bother the M417 people so much.
 
This chart seems to show Yamnaya as a dead-end, apart from in admixture with 'Steppe MLBA Cloud' (Corded Ware/Sintashta).

This looks about right by yDNA and autosomally. Remaining Yamnaya seems to have morphed into Poltavka; it largely retained R1b-Z2103, but was affected by admixture with surrounding populations (including Siberians and Corded Ware/Sintashta-related people). By 2,250 BC, its genetic contribution to the region was collapsing, and its paternal lineages had been replaced by R1a-M417.

One question is - was Yamnayan DNA displaced or eliminated? My suggestion is that it was substantially displaced southwards and over some period between 2,600 BC and 2,200 BC:
1. Autosomal analysis of Bronze Age Armenia indicates that Steppe-like people with similar yDNA and aDNA to Poltavka arrived there at some point between 2,600 and 1,500 BC.
2. R1b-Z2103 has been found in the Northern Caucasus dated to the first half of the third millennium BC.
3. yDNA phylogeny in Armenia suggests that there was a wide coverage of basal Z2103 subclades included in this move, perhaps making a date at the early end of this range more likely. Estimates are that these subclades branched away from each other before 3,000 BC, but still coalesce to the Caucasus.

It looks like some surviving Yamnayan populations largely headed South, partly under pressure from R1a-M417 people (who had almost completely replaced them, paternally and autosomally, by 2,000 BC) and - as Bicicleur points out - partly due to climate change. The climate change did not seem to bother the M417 people so much.

Try and be a little more specific in your choice of snp's, otherwise you will attract numerous archaeogentic perverts lurking on this forum.
R1a R1b from Volga and Yamnaya-aka Pit grave, come in many flavors.[ for example R1b-M73 , R1b-V1636, R1b-KMS75]

Maybe then you can explain..
The name Dniester derives from Sarmatian dānu nazdya "the close river."[4] The Dnieper, also of Sarmatian origin, derives from the opposite meaning, "the river on the far side". Alternatively, according to Vasily Abaev Dniester would be a blend of Scythian dānu "river" and Thracian Ister, the previous name of the river, literally Dān-Ister (River Ister).[5] The Ancient Greek name of Dniester, Tyras (Τύρας), is from Scythian tūra, meaning "rapid."[citation needed] The names of the Don and Danube are also from the same Indo-Iranian word *dānu "river". Classical authors have also referred to it as Danaster. These early forms, without -i- but with -a-, contradict Abaev's hypothesis. Edward Gibbon refers to the river both as the Niester and Dniester in his History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.[6]
 
Try and be a little more specific in your choice of snp's, otherwise you will attract numerous archaeogentic perverts lurking on this forum.
R1a R1b from Volga and Yamnaya-aka Pit grave, come in many flavors.[ for example R1b-M73 , R1b-V1636, R1b-KMS75]

Maybe then you can explain..

We can see that M73, V1636 and KMS75 declined, or possibly never really flourished, so it is harder to trace their developments. Z2103 as a whole appears to have been a predominant and substantial Yamnayan SNP, and we can see that most of its extant branches appear to coalesce in the Caucasus.

My starting of this thread was more prompted by autosomal data, linking Bronze Age changes in Armenian DNA to various populations in the Northern Steppe from Poland to Siberia.

There also seem to be signs associating the decline/heavy dilution/displacement of Yamnayan populations by the Volga with a migration of R1a-M417 lineages from the West.

One possible explanation for the river names is that the eastwards-retreating branch of the Suvorovo took the names of the rivers from where they were based originally (Danube/Dniester) and gave these names to the rivers they migrated to (Dniepr/Donets). But this is only a guess.
 
Last edited:
We can see that M73, V1636 and KMS75 declined, or possibly never really flourished, so it is harder to trace their developments. Z2103 as a whole appears to have been a predominant and substantial Yamnayan SNP, and we can see that most of its extant branches appear to coalesce in the Caucasus.

My starting of this thread was more prompted by autosomal data, linking Bronze Age changes in Armenian DNA to various populations in the Northern Steppe from Poland to Siberia.

There also seem to be signs associating the decline/heavy dilution/displacement of Yamnayan populations by the Volga with a migration of R1a-M417 lineages from the West.

One possible explanation for the river names is that the eastwards-retreating branch of the Suvorovo took the names of the rivers from where they were based originally (Danube/Dniester) and gave these names to the rivers they migrated to (Dniepr/Donets). But this is only a guess.

Are Burzyan Bashkirs R1b>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>KMS77? They seem to have slightly more than R1a samples, no?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/

lobov-bashkir-freqs.jpg
 
Maybe then you can explain..

Sorry, I only replied to your rivers comment in a rush before going out, and didn't have time to fully consider it.

I suppose the idea that the names Danube, Dniester, Dnieper and Don derive from the Sarmatians/Scythians makes sense, although isn't Danu considered to be a generic PIE root word?

I haven't researched it, but my guess in any case is that the Sarmatians/Scythians derived substantially from R1a populations based in the Western Steppe. In my opinion, these populations, in turn, were predominantly the products of retreating Suvorovo who might well have spoken a similar language themselves by the time they spread further eastwards (just before 2,000 BC) and so might have already used similar names for these rivers.

If Sarmatians and Scythians were eastern tribes, as many believe, I wonder why they would have named the western rivers as the near ones and the eastern rivers as the far ones. The suggestion from etymology is perhaps that the originators of these names lived near to the westernmost of these rivers - the Danube?

I'm not sure that there were any significant Yamnayan contributions to any of these populations.
 
Are Burzyan Bashkirs R1b>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>KMS77? They seem to have slightly more than R1a samples, no?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/

lobov-bashkir-freqs.jpg

Yes, although from this chart, you cannot tell what types of R1b-M269 these 34% of Bashkirs are, and how they got there. It might have been via migrations from the Northern Caucasus and/or even Western Europe. I suppose the likelihood is that the paternal origin of many Bashkirs does involve Yamnaya, but even today, Bashkirs make up a pretty small population, so this does not negate the idea that Yamnayan DNA declined substantially.

Known KMS77 is a pretty small population, and (i) one half of it is South/West European, (ii) the other half looks more likely to be Caucasus-derived.

I haven't analysed it, but at first sight modern Bashkirs look autosomally closer to a mix of Mongolian populations with ancient R1a, rather than R1b.
 
Yes, although from this chart, you cannot tell what types of R1b-M269 these 34% of Bashkirs are, and how they got there. It might have been via migrations from the Northern Caucasus and/or even Western Europe. I suppose the likelihood is that the paternal origin of many Bashkirs does involve Yamnaya, but even today, Bashkirs make up a pretty small population, so this does not negate the idea that Yamnayan DNA declined substantially.

Known KMS77 is a pretty small population, and (i) one half of it is South/West European, (ii) the other half looks more likely to be Caucasus-derived.

I haven't analysed it, but at first sight modern Bashkirs look autosomally closer to a mix of Mongolian populations with ancient R1a, rather than R1b.


Would you agree that Yamnaya sample IO370 is close to Bashkir-Burzyansky 33% R1b?

4UV5g0KHO88IFrf7-Region.png


uoUaIfWpmsLDaFtI-Region.png
 
Last edited:
Would you agree that Yamnaya sample IO370 is close to Bashkir-Burzyansky 33% R1b?

4UV5g0KHO88IFrf7-Region.png


uoUaIfWpmsLDaFtI-Region.png

Geographically, it is close to Bashkir-Burzyansky, and a bit of an outlier from core Yamnaya.

Genetically, it is close to core Yamnaya, but different to Bashkir (which is an admixture of Pontic-Caspian Steppe and Siberian).

Having now analysed some autosomal data, I see modern Bashkirs appearing indeed to have a Yamnayan component to their DNA - by my estimate, about 15% of its Pontic-Caspian DNA derives from Yamnaya and 85% from Ukrainian R1a; whereas Sintashta appears wholly or substantially derived from Ukrainian R1a.

Accordingly, I still see Bashkirs as symptomatic of Yamnayan decline, rather than Yamnayan elimination. As in the Caucasus, the Urals might have provided refuges for certain Yamnayan groups in the face of R1a expansionism. There also appears to be some close and fairly recent genetic links between the Caucasus and the Urals, and I am not sure what the direction of travel would have been between the two.

What do you think?
 
Geographically, it is close to Bashkir-Burzyansky, and a bit of an outlier from core Yamnaya.

Genetically, it is close to core Yamnaya, but different to Bashkir (which is an admixture of Pontic-Caspian Steppe and Siberian).

Having now analysed some autosomal data, I see modern Bashkirs appearing indeed to have a Yamnayan component to their DNA - by my estimate, about 15% of its Pontic-Caspian DNA derives from Yamnaya and 85% from Ukrainian R1a; whereas Sintashta appears wholly or substantially derived from Ukrainian R1a.

Accordingly, I still see Bashkirs as symptomatic of Yamnayan decline, rather than Yamnayan elimination. As in the Caucasus, the Urals might have provided refuges for certain Yamnayan groups in the face of R1a expansionism. There also appears to be some close and fairly recent genetic links between the Caucasus and the Urals, and I am not sure what the direction of travel would have been between the two.

What do you think?
Yes I would agree that they are related. In other words R1b-KMS77 derives directly from Yamnaya. There is something I find interesting about this sample. It is located to one of the earliest Sarmatian samples.
http://homeland.ku.dk/

The first Sarmatians are mostly identified with the Prokhorovka culture, which moved from the southern Urals to the Lower Volga and then northern Pontic steppe, in the 4th–3rd centuries BC. During the migration, the Sarmatians seem to have grown and divided themselves into several groups, such as the Alans, Aorsi, Roxolani and Iazyges. By 200 BC, the Sarmatians replaced the Scythians as the dominant people of the steppes.[15] The Sarmatians and Scythians had fought on the Pontic steppe to the north of the Black Sea.[16] The Sarmatians, described as a large confederation,[17] were to dominate these territories over the next five centuries.[18] According to Brzezinski and Mielczarek, the Sarmatians were formed between the Don River and the Ural Mountains.[18] Pliny the Elder (23–79 AD) wrote that they ranged from the Vistula River (in present-day Poland) to the Danube.The Sarmatians differed from the Scythians in their veneration of the god of fire rather than god of nature, and women's prominent role in warfare, which possibly served as the inspiration for the Amazons.

aI7HZdetku8R9vXp-Region.png

jakoblenz-malyshev-chart.png
 
Yes I would agree that they are related. In other words R1b-KMS77 derives directly from Yamnaya. There is something I find interesting about this sample. It is located to one of the earliest Sarmatian samples.
http://homeland.ku.dk/



aI7HZdetku8R9vXp-Region.png

jakoblenz-malyshev-chart.png

If correct, and Yamnayan/Poltavkan Z2103 samples were all KMS67, with other branches of Z2109 being West/Central European, then this would (i) place formational Z2109 in a position more likely in West/Central Europe or somewhere intermediate between the two, and (ii) provide additional indication of the decline of Yamnayan lineages - as KMS67 appears to have a pretty small modern population.

We cannot tell if Lentz was paternally Yamnaya-derived or from another population ancestral to Yamnaya. His STRs are only similar to two other North West European samples, and are very different to Eastern KMS67 samples, so I suspect the ancestors of these three might have broken off westwards pre-Yamnaya.

This just leaves, as you identify, two or three modern KMS77 samples, with probable early branchings into (i) Iraq, and (ii) Bashkortostan. Additionally, STRs identical to Bashkir samples show up in Dagestan, and it is not clear whether their DNA originates in the Urals or the Caucasus, although their closest relation being Iraqi would lean me towards the Caucasus, particularly as other basal clades of Z2103 also coalesce there.

As is the case with autosomal data, this does suggest there was a shrivelling of Yamnayan DNA, and its replacement by R1a lineages and Corded Ware-like autosomal DNA does suggest a population change in the region, rather than an evacuation of it, would you agree?
 
If correct, and Yamnayan/Poltavkan Z2103 samples were all KMS67, with other branches of Z2109 being West/Central European, then this would (i) place formational Z2109 in a position more likely in West/Central Europe or somewhere intermediate between the two, and (ii) provide additional indication of the decline of Yamnayan lineages - as KMS67 appears to have a pretty small modern population.

We cannot tell if Lentz was paternally Yamnaya-derived or from another population ancestral to Yamnaya. His STRs are only similar to two other North West European samples, and are very different to Eastern KMS67 samples, so I suspect the ancestors of these three might have broken off westwards pre-Yamnaya.

This just leaves, as you identify, two or three modern KMS77 samples, with probable early branchings into (i) Iraq, and (ii) Bashkortostan. Additionally, STRs identical to Bashkir samples show up in Dagestan, and it is not clear whether their DNA originates in the Urals or the Caucasus, although their closest relation being Iraqi would lean me towards the Caucasus, particularly as other basal clades of Z2103 also coalesce there.

As is the case with autosomal data, this does suggest there was a shrivelling of Yamnayan DNA, and its replacement by R1a lineages and Corded Ware-like autosomal DNA does suggest a population change in the region, rather than an evacuation of it, would you agree?

No, I would not agree.
First we have to identify the specific snp branch of R1a. Is it found in Ukraine, Baltic, Caucasus, Arkaim-Sintashta fortresses?
 
the 4.2 ka climate change had a lot to do with Yamna decline

Was it a "decline" or simply a single highly male-biased "wave" that petered out, autosomally speaking, after, say, a dozen or so generations? With their Y-DNA lineages, language, and culture persisting much longer? They were, themselves, already admixed, and washed over and mixed/mated with other, already highly admixed, populations that preceded them.
 
No, I would not agree.
First we have to identify the specific snp branch of R1a. Is it found in Ukraine, Baltic, Caucasus, Arkaim-Sintashta fortresses?

Which part do you not agree with, and why?

Do you think that Yamnayan DNA continued to thrive/predominate in the Steppe? (If so, what are its thriving yDNA and aDNA branches, and where is it located?) Do you alternatively think the Steppe was evacuated after Yamnaya? Or do you think that R1a lineages and Corded Ware-like autosomal DNA did not increase in the region?

I doubt there was only one specific branch of R1a in the population that thrived and this population might well have included other yDNA groups, but autosomal analysis and evidence from apparent brother populations like Sintashta would suggest it was predominantly Z93 and Northern Ukraine in origin. Is there evidence to suggest this was not the case?
 
Which part do you not agree with, and why?

Do you think that Yamnayan DNA continued to thrive/predominate in the Steppe? (If so, what are its thriving yDNA and aDNA branches, and where is it located?) Do you alternatively think the Steppe was evacuated after Yamnaya? Or do you think that R1a lineages and Corded Ware-like autosomal DNA did not increase in the region?

I doubt there was only one specific branch of R1a in the population that thrived and this population might well have included other yDNA groups, but autosomal analysis and evidence from apparent brother populations like Sintashta would suggest it was predominantly Z93 and Northern Ukraine in origin. Is there evidence to suggest this was not the case?

Can you find this successful branch of R1a-snp from Ukraine or Sintashta-Arkaim, in modern day Iranian language from Ossetian region?

Or Jaszjsag project?
 
Last edited:
Was it a "decline" or simply a single highly male-biased "wave" that petered out, autosomally speaking, after, say, a dozen or so generations? With their Y-DNA lineages, language, and culture persisting much longer? They were, themselves, already admixed, and washed over and mixed/mated with other, already highly admixed, populations that preceded them.

I'll accept it being called a peter-out, rather than a decline. Whether they, their ancestors or a neighbouring people were the substantial influencers of language and culture is still an open question in my view. The genetics is a different matter - it appears that not only the Yamnayan yDNA lineages, but also their typical autosomal mixes, declined or petered out in the Steppe to be replaced predominantly with R1a lineages, autosomal mixes typical of R1a populations and some additional Northern and Siberian DNA.

I see Yamnayan (autosomal) DNA not as dying out per se, but certainly as shrivelling on the Steppe, and as partly regenerating in other regions like the Southern Caucasus and the Eastern Baltic.
 

This thread has been viewed 18969 times.

Back
Top