David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

There are some people of European background usually that like to present Indoeuropeans as 'warlike' but 'pre-indo-Europeans' or non-Indpoeuropeans as 'peaceful' or weak in one way or another etc. The truth is most IE groups at least seemed to have been generally 'warlike' but many other non-IE groups are presented as warlike too.


Indeed, this is the idea held by some German Nazi and Italian fascist thinkers of the early decades of the 20th century. They are not even worth mentioning. The idea of the 'Nordic' Romans (with all the positive qualities that are implied) set against the 'Middle Eastern' Etruscans (peaceful, weak, corrupt, devoted to the futile pleasures of life). As kingjohn said, this is propaganda.

It would be interesting to see how much of this propaganda survives today within the general theory of Indo-Europeans. In the social imaginary/collective imagination it certainly survives even today.
 
Chimpanzee can be very aggressive to their own, they even hunt down weaker monkeys and eat them. Bonobos related to Chimpanzee, are very different in nature. I always heard studies of when food run's out in a city (dense population)that human instinct turns violent very fast. The typical grocery store has to be replenished with food very frequently. I wondered if people in s big city would ever turn to cannibalism if food was not provided.

Bonobos are an aberration which could develop only in isolation. They live primarily between two rivers in a rather limited and more scarce land. So they became smaller, less patriarchal and went for hypersexualism to avoid physical violence. If there wouldn't be the rivers and the isolation, if they would come in contact with chimpanzees proper, they would be annihilated within a short period of time. They are simply not as competitive.

If the Steppe people were pastoralists didn't they sort of combine herding with farming. Farmers, I would guess, were herders as well. What you see (less so now than 30 years ago) historically in mountain communities of the Balkans;Greece, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria are folks who are essentially farmers/pastoralists so I would assume that at some point these traditions fused rather than collided.

The typical steppe pastoralists were by far not as successful. Yamnaya did conquer faster and move wider, but their legacy was small and they almost instantly mixed with locals, which did much better in their neighbourhood, even if the initial destruction was catastrophic, like in the Eastern Carpathian basin or at the Lower Danube.

The really successful Indoeuropeans, which replaced on a grande scale, were the agro-pastoralists, which were not as fast, but came in, in large numbers, and replacing the locals, especially the local males. They came to stay and they didn't need the local farmers to produce what they can't produce themselves.

In that way the Corded Ware people were in some ways closer to TRB-GAC predecessors, which covered by and large the same core territory by the way and with which they even fused in some regions, than to Yamnaya proper. Which is why it was fairly suprising that GAC was completely Neolithic, without any steppe ancestry and the earliest Corded Ware having very little to no GAC as well. Because archaeologically, and even by physical characteristics, they were clearly two very close people. But apparently, one being non-steppe, the other steppe-derived.
 
Indeed, this is the idea held by some German Nazi and Italian fascist thinkers of the early decades of the 20th century. They are not even worth mentioning. The idea of the 'Nordic' Romans (with all the positive qualities that are implied) set against the 'Middle Eastern' Etruscans (peaceful, weak, corrupt, devoted to the futile pleasures of life). As kingjohn said, this is propaganda.

It would be interesting to see how much of this propaganda survives today within the general theory of Indo-Europeans. In the social imaginary/collective imagination it certainly survives even today.

I'm afraid quite a lot of this propaganda survives in the swampy corners of the Net, eg Apricity, which is a caricature of an anthro site.

It is interesting how popular Coon is in such sites while they ignore the much more competent J. Lawrence Angel who designated a Nordic-Iranian type as part of the Indo-Europeans who invaded Greece, his speciality, and the East Med.

But then Angel pointed out that his Nordic-Iranian category included brunette Iranian types as well as blondes.
 
anthrogenica:

Originally Posted by manesh
Does anyone have any new information about when this study will be published?



J.delajara : I've heard by the end of this month...



quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by rafc
Any idea if that is valid for all three(?) papers, or which one would be published first?



J Man : In this order:

Neolithic
Bronze Age
Iron Age/Historical





Pribislav: As far as I know, all three papers should be published in the same issue of Science. Most likely next friday, or the one after that.


 
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It's believed that 2/3 of the Roman population were slaves.

If this is true, it may be the reason why the Roman society collapsed.
You can't have such amount of people that only is in the Empire because they were kidnapped from somewhere else.

You need your own citizens.
 
Chimpanzee can be very aggressive to their own, they even hunt down weaker monkeys and eat them. Bonobos related to Chimpanzee, are very different in nature. I always heard studies of when food run's out in a city (dense population)that human instinct turns violent very fast. The typical grocery store has to be replenished with food very frequently. I wondered if people in s big city would ever turn to cannibalism if food was not provided.

In regards to this, Chimpanzees are 10 times more numerous than Bonobos.
Bonobos are barely relevant, but we all know Chimps.

The Bonobo strategy of matriarchy didn't work, has been a very common topic these years that they're ruled by women, but that hasn't produce results.
 
Bonobos are an aberration which could develop only in isolation. They live primarily between two rivers in a rather limited and more scarce land. So they became smaller, less patriarchal and went for hypersexualism to avoid physical violence. If there wouldn't be the rivers and the isolation, if they would come in contact with chimpanzees proper, they would be annihilated within a short period of time. They are simply not as competitive.
The typical steppe pastoralists were by far not as successful. Yamnaya did conquer faster and move wider, but their legacy was small and they almost instantly mixed with locals, which did much better in their neighbourhood, even if the initial destruction was catastrophic, like in the Eastern Carpathian basin or at the Lower Danube.
The really successful Indoeuropeans, which replaced on a grande scale, were the agro-pastoralists, which were not as fast, but came in, in large numbers, and replacing the locals, especially the local males. They came to stay and they didn't need the local farmers to produce what they can't produce themselves.
In that way the Corded Ware people were in some ways closer to TRB-GAC predecessors, which covered by and large the same core territory by the way and with which they even fused in some regions, than to Yamnaya proper. Which is why it was fairly suprising that GAC was completely Neolithic, without any steppe ancestry and the earliest Corded Ware having very little to no GAC as well. Because archaeologically, and even by physical characteristics, they were clearly two very close people. But apparently, one being non-steppe, the other steppe-derived.
I really like the fact that R1bZ2203 can be found along R1b-L51 in Afanasievo, Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Latins. And that Turganik Dom2 horses or any Dom2 horses were not found in any Corded Ware context. I'm beggining to question the narrative of horse domestication in Sintashta. No horses in Corded Ware(lot's of rock axes), No horses in Northern India, was Sintashta trading with the real Indo-Europeans for their supply of domesticated horses? I guess we will soon find out who ancient Armenian Armenians are related to. My bet is R1bZ2103-- a group connected to R1bL51--Afanasievo,Bell Beakers, Corded Ware, Latins
 
If this is true, it may be the reason why the Roman society collapsed.
You can't have such amount of people that only is in the Empire because they were kidnapped from somewhere else.
You need your own citizens.


I corrected myself, not 2/3 but 1/3 of the Roman population were slaves. Besides, in late imperial Rome, for instance, the Romans relied heavily on Germanic mercenaries, soldiers, to secure their border against other Germanic tribes. There are several reasons why Rome fell- invasions by Barbarian tribes, economic troubles, overreliance on slave labor, over-expansion, military spending, government corruption, and political instability.
 
[FONT=&]Before we go back to the topic let me make that clear I'm not talking out of my head as you try to make me appear.

[FONT=&]Here's the thing same scientific article was posted on a blog about Archaeology&history. https://ancient-archeology.com/category/archaeology-history/[/FONT]

[FONT=&]Plus, on the official Website of the University of Tübingen, there was this article that alludes to the Etruscans being different from their neighbors not in terms of genetics, though.[/FONT]

"Die Etrusker bewohnten während der Eisenzeit große Gebiete Mittelitaliens, die heutigen Regionen Toskana, Latium und Umbrien mit lokalen Ausläufern in benachbarte Regionen. Ihre Kultur ist bekannt für die besonderen Fähigkeiten bei der Metallbearbeitung, ihre hochentwickelte Kunst und ihre Sprache, die noch nicht in allen Teilen entschlüsselt ist und nicht zur Sprachfamilie der Indoeuropäischen Sprachen gehört. „Die Etrusker traten so verschieden von ihren Nachbarn auf, dass in der Wissenschaft schon lange darüber diskutiert wird, ob diese Bevölkerung lokal entstand oder zugewandert war. Unsere Ergebnisse zeigen einen lokalen Ursprung“, berichtet Cosimo Posth."

Translation
The Etruscans inhabited large areas of central Italy, present-day regions of Tuscany, Lazio and Umbria, with local outcrops into neighboring regions, during the Iron Age. Their culture is known for their special skills in metalworking, their highly developed art and their language, which is not yet fully deciphered and does not belong to the Indo-European language family. “The Etruscans appeared so different from their neighbors that scholars have long debated whether this population was local or immigrant. Our results show a local origin,” reports Cosimo Posth."

[FONT=&]https://uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliche-fakultaet/fachbereiche/geowissenschaften/fachbereich/aktuelles/aktuelles-aus-der-forschung/newsfullview-aktuelles-aus-der-forschung/article/genetische-abstammung-und-erbe-der-etrusker-entschluesselt/[/FONT]

[/FONT]

I think they ( etruscans ) where more in Tuscany , Lazio and western-Campania and not so much on the Adriatic side of Italy........they did push the umbri out of Lazio though....................the Umbri and their branches of people as in Sabines, Sabellics, Samnites, Volpsi, Brutti and others where more populous than the etruscans .

Etruscans ruled over Rome and lazio for nearly 200 years


The main problem is that people think the ethnicity of Republican Rome was the same as Imperial Rome .............it was completely different between the 2
 
anthrogenica:

Originally Posted by manesh
Does anyone have any new information about when this study will be published?



J.delajara : I've heard by the end of this month...



quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by rafc
Any idea if that is valid for all three(?) papers, or which one would be published first?



J Man : In this order:

Neolithic
Bronze Age
Iron Age/Historical





Pribislav:As far as I know, all three papers should be published in the same issue of Science. Most likely next friday, or the one after that.



Thanks, kingjohn for the info. Good to know that we don't need to wait long for these 3 major papers.
 
Thanks, kingjohn for the info. Good to know that we don't need to wait long for these 3 major papers.

let us hope pribislav is correct ;)



p.s
i think it is going to be an exciting paper for r1b as usual :LOL:
 
Is there any evidence of high A+ blood types in Armenia and Anatolia being compatible with A RH- as per AE Mourant and or Iain Mathieson stats?
A is highest in Norway and Armenia. From what I understand, A2 is/was highest among Assyrians.
As for Mathieson: Do you know how he came up with the 40% Rh negative Steppe stats?
I messaged him a few years ago with some inconsistencies in his studies and guess what... he blocked me.
 
Anyone know if the R1b1a1a found in Samara Russia Hunter Gatherer 6000BC +/- had blonde hair and or blue eyes? Is Samara Russia pottery predate the southern sphere arc Arc pottery?
My guess would rather be red or reddish hair. The Sarmatians for example alongside other descendants were reported to have high red hair frequencies.
 
A-B-AB-O rh negative blood types are pretty unique to European people like Basque and Steppe. Modern day blood transfusions and women who are rh negative and married rh negative did not have to worry about losing their offspring.
There should have been plenty of "blue babies" in Basque country prior to medical discoveries, but am not sure there is evidence for that.
 
A is highest in Norway and Armenia. From what I understand, A2 is/was highest among Assyrians.
As for Mathieson: Do you know how he came up with the 40% Rh negative Steppe stats?
I messaged him a few years ago with some inconsistencies in his studies and guess what... he blocked me.
. IF I recall, 30 years back I was looking at the frequency of A2, since that was one of the first genetic testing markers from King Tut(back in 60s-70s?if I recall). I'll have to recheck but I do believe AE, Mourant had a nice data set of A2 from Sammi with the highest frequency. There was another paper on the origins of ABO with A2 being thought to have it's origins in Caucasus. When I have a chance I double check.
 
There should have been plenty of "blue babies" in Basque country prior to medical discoveries, but am not sure there is evidence for that.
Again if I recall it's been a long time (30years+/-)that I took an interest in the negative blood type and Basque/Steppe-Volga-Caucasus)If I recall Armenian proto Indo-European theorist Gramkrlidze
had mentioned high rh negative frequency around Georgia, but linking it with Hunter Gatherer. There was another pocket of elevated rh negative and red hair around Italy-Swiss, again it's been a long time and I can't remember, when I have time I will chey.
 
In regards to this, Chimpanzees are 10 times more numerous than Bonobos.
Bonobos are barely relevant, but we all know Chimps.

The Bonobo strategy of matriarchy didn't work, has been a very common topic these years that they're ruled by women, but that hasn't produce results.


What kind of potential results?
 
firetown. The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology. Serological evidence for the parentage of Tutankhamun and Smenkhkare. Aug 1 1976. The Distribution of the Human Blood Groups and Other Polymorphisms. Sec. Ed. A.E Mourant, Ada C Kopec and Kzimiera Domaniewska Sobczak. London Oxford University Press 1976.
 
ABO blood type frequencies are the result of natural selection due to various circumstances. Their origins are much much older, so no need to make some dubious affiliations with ancient ethnic groups and claim it has origins here or there.
 
Again if I recall it's been a long time (30years+/-)that I took an interest in the negative blood type and Basque/Steppe-Volga-Caucasus)If I recall Armenian proto Indo-European theorist Gramkrlidze
had mentioned high rh negative frequency around Georgia, but linking it with Hunter Gatherer. There was another pocket of elevated rh negative and red hair around Italy-Swiss, again it's been a long time and I can't remember, when I have time I will chey.
I would be very interested in the Georgia pocket. As for Switzerland/Italy:
While suspecting the Etruscans to have had elevated frequencies, Tuscany today seems to be on European average while some of the Walser regions in Rhone Valley have shown frequencies as high as the Basques, also high percentages of people with red hair.
 

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