Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

broder said:
Sure, but I have noticed you keep dismissing it like it’s nothing. When today it’s one of our major linages and super relevant to our ethnogenesis.
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Us J2-L283 Neo Illyrians only accept Z2103>CTS9219, sorry bro.
 
Trojet said:
Archeogenetic studies are still in their infancy. When it comes to Albanian J-L283, we should also keep in mind that over 50% of it falls under J-Y21045>PH4679 subclade, which as of now has yet to be confirmed in aDNA (before some of us proclaim ourselves "Neo-Illyrians" :p).
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Great point. Maybe the Albanian J2-L283 comes from..... Daco-Thraco-Schytians? I'll pay Riverman a couple of dinars to go outside and dig in some sites to find and then stare at some pots, then cook up a crazy Eastern theory that will torture everybody on anthroforas for years.
 
My thinking is simple; Illyrians were more northern shifted than Albanians despite Albanian having 15%-20% Northern European admixture (ie. Slavic). Why? Because Albanians have substantial admixture from Eastern Balkans (Dacian or Thracian) associated with the dominant male line of E-V13.
 
Illyria said:
So Proto-Albanians are E-V13 Channeled Ware Thracians + R1b-M269 Paeonian Brygians who took on J2b2 Illyrian language, culture, and burial rites? Lol

Where's all the linguistic links to Thracian? Why do we have so many more links to Illyrian? Haplogroup frequencies change over time, Illyrians are a mountain people, J2b2 is highest in the mountains, E-V13 and R1b more common in the lowlands

Is it easier to grow communities in the mountains, or in the lowlands? It's easier to grow large communities in lowlands, hence why E-V13 and R1b are more common than J2b2.

Look at any place on earth, CITIES have more people than RURAL AREAS. Woe to the Neo-Illyrians from the Trojan-Dardanian plains, they want to live in fantasy.

Why do scholars say Albanians have roughly the same components from the Bronze Age to current times, why are we closer to HRV_IA than Bulgaria IA? We are literally pulled in the direction of the West Balkans, not the East Balkans. Why do Byzantine Epirotes and Ancient Macedonians overlap with Albanians? Why aren't those Macedonians pulled into the direction of Thrace? Epirotes and Macedonians intermarried with ILLYRIANS. Why does Albanian match Messapic, and why do scholars put it together in a branch with Illyric and Albanian?

Truly amazing, this need, from the Neo-Illyrians to be from somewhere far away east. Why do ancient sources say that the Dardanians were Illyrian, and that the Paeoni were Illyrian influenced? Even the Maedi and Triballi are said to have Illyrian influence, but noooo, the Neo-Illyrians, and Riverman, think that J2b2 was only confined to a thin line on the Adriatic coast :LOL: Like I said before, we need to test Bosnia, Southern Serbia, Kosova, and we need more samples from Montenegro (in the North of MNE where J2b2 and E-V13 could have met as it's more close to Central Balkans, Doclea is pure Illyrian territory in Ancient times)

Once we test these areas then we can start drawing more accurate conclusions to please the Neo-Illyrians. When we find E-V13 there, what will that mean? That these Thracians stopped cremating and took on an Illyrian burial rite. It seems much more likely that Proto-Albanians come from somewhere within the square of Croatia-Serbia-Albania-Macedonia. All the current data does not suggest we come from a square of Serbia-Romania-Macedonia-Bulgaria. It's amazing how it's only Kosovars who support this nonsense. They want to feel "special" and withdrawn from Albania, even though the data points for our origin in the West Balkans, by genetics, culture, and linguistics. Their false rhetoric is what Serbs and Greeks are foaming at the mouth for, to confirm their propaganda of Albanians being some new population that just popped out of the woods somewhere East.
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Mic drop!
Mic drop!
 
torzio said:
:LOL:
you must be one of these people that state the Epirotes are Illyrian
all major cities in Albania are greek in origin ................from 733BC to the Roman annexation at the time of the Hannibal wars......Durres, Appolonia, Butrint to name 3 of the big towns are all Greek in origin and where still Greek when the Romans moved in .............
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Do you know the amount of Illyrian names in Durres, Apollonia and Butrinti?

It's pretty ambitious to call some towns greek, when Greece has a huge number of archeological excavation sites, but with less and less DNA analysis.

The amount of EU funds in Greek Archeological Sites is so huge that they could found hundreds and hundreds of DNA samples and there would be less uncertainty about some events in history.
Waiting to see DNA samples from Pella, Dodona and other Western and Northern sites in Greece since EBA, to have a better look at Epirus and Macedonian "greekness".
 
Illyria said:
So Proto-Albanians are E-V13 Channeled Ware Thracians + R1b-M269 Paeonian Brygians who took on J2b2 Illyrian language, culture, and burial rites? Lol
Where's all the linguistic links to Thracian? Why do we have so many more links to Illyrian? Haplogroup frequencies change over time, Illyrians are a mountain people, J2b2 is highest in the mountains, E-V13 and R1b more common in the lowlands
Is it easier to grow communities in the mountains, or in the lowlands? It's easier to grow large communities in lowlands, hence why E-V13 and R1b are more common than J2b2.
Look at any place on earth, CITIES have more people than RURAL AREAS. Woe to the Neo-Illyrians from the Trojan-Dardanian plains, they want to live in fantasy.
Why do scholars say Albanians have roughly the same components from the Bronze Age to current times, why are we closer to HRV_IA than Bulgaria IA? We are literally pulled in the direction of the West Balkans, not the East Balkans. Why do Byzantine Epirotes and Ancient Macedonians overlap with Albanians? Why aren't those Macedonians pulled into the direction of Thrace? Epirotes and Macedonians intermarried with ILLYRIANS. Why does Albanian match Messapic, and why do scholars put it together in a branch with Illyric and Albanian?
Truly amazing, this need, from the Neo-Illyrians to be from somewhere far away east. Why do ancient sources say that the Dardanians were Illyrian, and that the Paeoni were Illyrian influenced? Even the Maedi and Triballi are said to have Illyrian influence, but noooo, the Neo-Illyrians, and Riverman, think that J2b2 was only confined to a thin line on the Adriatic coast :LOL: Like I said before, we need to test Bosnia, Southern Serbia, Kosova, and we need more samples from Montenegro (in the North of MNE where J2b2 and E-V13 could have met as it's more close to Central Balkans, Doclea is pure Illyrian territory in Ancient times)
Once we test these areas then we can start drawing more accurate conclusions to please the Neo-Illyrians. When we find E-V13 there, what will that mean? That these Thracians stopped cremating and took on an Illyrian burial rite. It seems much more likely that Proto-Albanians come from somewhere within the square of Croatia-Serbia-Albania-Macedonia. All the current data does not suggest we come from a square of Serbia-Romania-Macedonia-Bulgaria. It's amazing how it's only Kosovars who support this nonsense. They want to feel "special" and withdrawn from Albania, even though the data points for our origin in the West Balkans, by genetics, culture, and linguistics. Their false rhetoric is what Serbs and Greeks are foaming at the mouth for, to confirm their propaganda of Albanians being some new population that just popped out of the woods somewhere East.
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there is only one historian who states the Dardanians are illyrian and that is strabo.
but he also states maritime Illyrians and Interior Illyrians ..............see link below with map.
https://www.academia.edu/489614/Peo..._of_the_Greek_world_Illyria_as_seen_by_Strabo
 
epirus1000 said:
Do you know the amount of Illyrian names in Durres, Apollonia and Butrinti?

It's pretty ambitious to call some towns greek, when Greece has a huge number of archeological excavation sites, but with less and less DNA analysis.

The amount of EU funds in Greek Archeological Sites is so huge that they could found hundreds and hundreds of DNA samples and there would be less uncertainty about some events in history.
Waiting to see DNA samples from Pella, Dodona and other Western and Northern sites in Greece since EBA, to have a better look at Epirus and Macedonian "greekness".
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no

let me know ..............I only have pages of Illyrian names in Noricum (ancient east austria and slovenia )
 
Fustan said:
Great point. Maybe the Albanian J2-L283 comes from..... Daco-Thraco-Schytians? I'll pay Riverman a couple of dinars to go outside and dig in some sites to find and then stare at some pots, then cook up a crazy Eastern theory that will torture everybody on anthroforas for years.
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:LOL::LOL: Don't get Riverman started now.

In all seriousness though, I think the most likely origin of Albanian J-PH4679 lineages is the mountainous regions of northern Albania. Ancient Dardania is a possibility, under which scenario these lineages could've fled nearby to northern Albanian mountains during the turmoils of Late Antiquity - Early Middle Ages. But if it turns out to be Dardania, are we still going to be "Illyrians" since some don't consider them as Illyrians.
 
20220320_125302.jpg20220320_122642.jpg
torzio said:
no
let me know ..............I only have pages of Illyrian names in Noricum (ancient east austria and slovenia )
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These are just on my gallery from a recent visit to Apollonia Museum. Tritos, Plator and Enkleida, just on two stones.
 
Trojet said:
In all seriousness though, I think the most likely origin of Albanian J-PH4679 lineages is the mountainous regions of northern Albania. Ancient Dardania is a possibility, under which scenario these lineages could've fled nearby to northern Albanian mountains during the turmoils of Late Antiquity - Early Middle Ages. But if it turns out to be Dardania, are we still going to be "Illyrians" since some don't consider them as Illyrians.
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Illyrian IA Glasinac-Mati is one of the major archeological complexes in the territory of Dardania (be it under Roman or Pre-Roman set borders) and I have never seen any academic opposing that. Besides that there were also Brnjica and Channeled Ware, totally unrelated to the Illyrian sphere.

Let's not beat around the bush and be "funny" here since this all played out very well for many micro clades of J2b-L283 and it is not going to magically be different for Y21045>PH4679. Gudnja set the start and after all the samples and samples to come there is a clear picture for Z638+ and its archaeogenetic association.
 
torzio said:
so you claim Epirotes are Illyrians ?......yes or no
no I did not see the claim ...............link it please
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Epirotes are people that have both Greek and Illyrian influence. Who they were originally I don't know.

We see with both Macedonians and Epirotes that the earliest sources call them barbarians, while after Alexander (during the Hellenistic period) they started being considered Greeks.

So, yes during the Hellenistic period, they were considered "Greeks". But we have no idea who the original Epirotes were.
 
1337_ said:
No I personally do not think they were Illyrians neither were Macedonians. In fact, I used to believe Macedonians might of been Thracians but I don't know.

I see now one of these Thracian sample belongs to Y-DNA R-Z93 which is the second Thracian I see with this Y-DNA and interesting
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Why would Macedonians be Thracians? Are you really buying into the "North Macedonian" crap some Greek nationalists are putting forward?

Those Ohrid samples are clearly a part of Upper Macedonia.
 
mount123 said:

83.9% (or 81.6%) of the total male Albanian population (general not specific to regions) does not belong to Y DNA J2b-L283 which via aDNA records has been shown to have been the main and defining Illyrian paternal line (map courtesy of Veseli): J2b-L283 ancient DNA

Given the statistics it is also easy to conclude that this haplogroup in the bio of many Albanian accounts here is suspiciously over represented and that is statistically speaking impossible. The reason for this occurrence is quite simple: multiple spam/fake accounts.

Albanian Y DNA (general not specific to regions) as per Rrenjet https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/:


NE-V13R-M269
(R1b-Z2103 + R1b-PF7562)		J2b-L283I-Y3120R-M417I-M253J-M410J-M267I-M223GE-M123
Albanians141926.7%19.9%16.1%7.2%6.8%5.2%5.2%2.7%2.6%1.3%1.1%
Gjenetika's http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ statistics of the three most frequent paternal markers do not differ much from the above:



NE-V13R-M269
(R1b-Z2103 + R1b-PF7562)		J2b-L283
Albanians93127.5%20.1%18.4%
Note: R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7562 in both projects are grouped under the macro haplogroup designation R-M269.
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This dude's brain is not functioning properly. Today there are places where EV-13 is low, and there places where J2B2 is low, and vice-versa. It doesn't matter in the slightest and Albanians are very homogenenous and share an absurdly high level of IBD.

Where most of my family hails from, EV13 is like 11%. In fact it's on par with R1a. Yet, J2B2/R1b are the dominant factions there, which clearly shows Illyrian links. There are places where EV13 is 40% in northern Kosovo, and places in Albania where J2B2 is 40%.

All Albanians are very closely linked (autosomally/IBD), regardless whether they're from Kosovo, whether they're 10% EV13/J2B2 or 40% EV13/J2b2.

Your brain cannot parse basic facts linked to how Y-DNA works. Y-DNA varies massively from village to village, clan to clan. It doesn't mean those people aren't closely linked. Small populations change Y-DNA percentages massively/frequently depending on how each clan/tribe migrates.

mount123 said:

83.9% (or 81.6%) of the total male Albanian population (general not specific to regions) does not belong to Y DNA J2b-L283
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Yes, and 75% of Y-DNA is not EV13. Yet, Albanian is a "Thracian" language because there is a low amount of EV13 in the samples found. You truly are brain dead.

What's funny if you ignore Greeks who experienced the same EV13 growth. They are Thracians too.
 
enter_tain said:
Why would Macedonians be Thracians? Are you really buying into the "North Macedonian" crap some Greek nationalists are putting forward?

Those Ohrid samples are clearly a part of Upper Macedonia.
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Responding to your own 2nd account, to have a fictional debate, this is sad.
 
torzio said:
The Triballi wild Boar is a symbol for the Serbian Governtment seal ............are you sure on what you state or are you quoting from Quora
the Parliament adopted the Serbian Coat of Arms in 1805, their official seal depicted the heraldic emblems of Serbia and Tribalia.[38]


Thracian hypothesis saw potential Albanian ancestors in the Thracian stratum in Dardania. In
keeping with a comparatively recent view of this Thracian stratum as an ethno-linguistically separate Daco-Mysian region, which included
Dardania,

The Albanian language emerged in consequence of inter-linguistic diffusions among the indigenous and
Romanized Balkan populations, as inferred by Agnia Desnitskaya, resulting in an amalgamation of the old and new with the Latin lexicon as
a substrate element of the new language of the new inhabitants.
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Try keeping up, you've been an obsessed "expert" with Albanians and the ancient Balkans for like 10+ years haven't you?

Triballi, a Thracian people whose earliest known home was the “Triballian plain” (probably the Plain of Kosovo), near the junction of the Angrus and Brongus rivers (the western and southern Morava) in the north-central Balkans. Sometime after 424 BC they were overcome by the Autariatae, an Illyrian tribe. In 339 BC the Triballi refused to allow Philip II of Macedon to pass through the Haemus (Balkan) Range unless they received a share of his booty. Philip forced a passage but was wounded in the hostilities. After Philip’s death, Alexander the Great in 335 crossed the Haemus and defeated the Triballi. The Macedonian expeditions left the land of the Triballi devastated, and the nearby Illyrians conquered them. They later gathered enough strength to cause trouble to the Roman governors of Macedonia.
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PaleoRevenge said:
Responding to your own 2nd account, to have a fictional debate, this is sad.
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Why is every account a sock account according to you and mount? Can you not comprehend that only like 4 people on here promote a pure Thracoid theory for Albanians? One of them is Riverman from Austria, he's not even Albanian, I wouldn't be surprised if he's an E-V13 Serb living in Austria. The current data is sufficient enough, there is no Proto-Albanians without Illyrians, without J-L283.
 
Anyway, to get back to reality.

The new paper about Albanian's phylogenetic position has been released with open access.

Hyllested and Joseph, like Matzinger, reaffirm that Albanian's deepest phylogenetic linguistic position is with Greek.

However, there is a deep and non-trivial isogloss that is shared with Balto-Slavic, tending more to Slavic than Baltic (only latvian from Baltic shares this feature, while Lithuanian is aligned more with Germanic).

Namely, the counting system of the numbers 11 - 19 being "Digit - on - ten" example: Albanian. "Njëmbëdhjetë" literally being Një-mbi-dhjetë, and this form of counting numbers 11-19 is also in Slavic languages.

What this means is that this counting pattern must have emerged in the language ancestral to Albanian while it was in contact with the balto-slavic group, favouring more contact with the slavic region than the baltic one, and further removed from the proto-germanic one, given that this isn't a feature in germanic and lithuanian.

Also importantly, this also appears in Romanian, which obviously suggests that Romanians spoke a language that had this feature before they were Latinised, which some like Prendergast, Hamp, etc argued was a Albanoid language.

Obviously here, the cetina and western balkans archaeological zones are a terrible fit of a region for this deep ancient isogloss to have developed in the Albanoid language group ancestral to proto-Albanian.

Likewise, the problem of Romanian also doesn't conform to this, were the pre-Romanians Illyrians? Nope.



8VH0EJM.png


Link: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/indoeuropean-language-family/4B44B5ACF0D3BBA89B9408050F112A52
 
epirus1000 said:
View attachment 13564View attachment 13565
These are just on my gallery from a recent visit to Apollonia Museum. Tritos, Plator and Enkleida, just on two stones.
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Illyrian names do appear all the way deep into Epirus territory, in Dodona in South Epirus for example in very old prayer tablets, they found names like Gent, etc.

Only problem with this is that Gent and Illyrian names in general don't fit proto-Albanian.

Names like Gent and Teuta very clearly have more western parallels, which possibly fits the presence of R-L51 in ancient western Balkans.
 
Johane Derite said:
Illyrian names do appear all the way deep into Epirus territory, in Dodona in South Epirus for example in very old prayer tablets, they found names like Gent, etc.

Only problem with this is that Gent and Illyrian names in general don't fit proto-Albanian.

Names like Gent and Teuta very clearly have more western parallels, which possibly fits the presence of R-L51 in ancient western Balkans.
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Why they don't fit the proto-Albanian. The names are easily part of the Albanian language, even after the revival in the previous century. Moreover, Stipcevic mentioned several Illyrian names preserved in the 11th century in Croatia. Albania on the other side did convert to catholic names very early in Roman Empire time. The catholic names are so albanized that in come case you cannot recognize their roman/latin form. I mean, Ndrec, Gjin, Ndu, etc, are really old names, while Bardh is one of the names that was both in pre roman times and pre medieval times.
 
Johane Derite said:
Anyway, to get back to reality.

The new paper about Albanian's phylogenetic position has been released with open access.

Hyllested and Joseph, like Matzinger, reaffirm that Albanian's deepest phylogenetic linguistic position is with Greek.

However, there is a deep and non-trivial isogloss that is shared with Balto-Slavic, tending more to Slavic than Baltic (only latvian from Baltic shares this feature, while Lithuanian is aligned more with Germanic).

Namely, the counting system of the numbers 11 - 19 being "Digit - on - ten" example: Albanian. "Njëmbëdhjetë" literally being Një-mbi-dhjetë, and this form of counting numbers 11-19 is also in Slavic languages.

What this means is that this counting pattern must have emerged in the language ancestral to Albanian while it was in contact with the balto-slavic group, favouring more contact with the slavic region than the baltic one, and further removed from the proto-germanic one, given that this isn't a feature in germanic and lithuanian.

Also importantly, this also appears in Romanian, which obviously suggests that Romanians spoke a language that had this feature before they were Latinised, which some like Prendergast, Hamp, etc argued was a Albanoid language.

Obviously here, the cetina and western balkans archaeological zones are a terrible fit of a region for this deep ancient isogloss to have developed in the Albanoid language group ancestral to proto-Albanian.

Likewise, the problem of Romanian also doesn't conform to this, were the pre-Romanians Illyrians? Nope.
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The conclusion of the authors is the following:
====
A systematic analysis of all relevant forms goes beyond our scope, but one can fairly say that the number of closely knit
lexemes with strong etymologies is in fact not significantly higher between Albanian and Balto-Slavic than one would expect between any two IE branches.
====
You are presenting your conclusion. The authors spend 1.5 pages on Albanian - Slavic relations and 8 pages on Albanian - Greek relations. That is the main conclusion.
 
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