Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

epirus1000 said:
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Rose W. Lane, a founder of the US Libertarian movement, documented some fantastic myths in Albania.She recorded claims that the ancient Macedonians had two capitals, one in Pella as well as another in the Mat valley in Albania, where they claimed Alexander the Great was born. (from AlbHistory in twitter). I have read similar stories from Rrok Zojzi. Hopefully I can find them.
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Yes, I personally photographed and highlighted those pages from the first edition print of this book in the library of tirana archive, since these passages about alexander were removed from the main later editions of this book.

I have tried to find corroborating claims for this but have not had luck, so would really appreciate it if it you confirmed whether rrok zojzi did actually document anything of the sort or no.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
But it is concentrated in the villages that speak and identify as Greek, the Albanian Orthodox settlements have the usual Albanian haplogroups. To me that's not chance.
Click to expand...


According to history those villages spoke Albanian as their mother language in the 19th century.

The evidence is very strong and RECENT (20th/19th century) to be ignored. The J2a could've been a medieval Greek man assimilated, but it does not change the fact. I am gonna stick to evidence. I remember 8% Slavic admixture in Peloponnese and "Illyrian" Bosnians and many other things that I wont mention years ago that contradicted hard historical data. Now all of it has been debunked. I am sure this one will fall off shortly.
 
Himariote dialect of the Greek language
The Himariote dialect of the Greek language or Himariotika is spoken mainly by Greeks in the municipality of Himara in Albania , and specifically by the residents of the city of Himara and the villages of Drymades and Palasa . Each settlement has its own variation of Himariotiki. While all 3 variants use the same basic vocabulary, they differ mainly in pronunciation. According to 2008 statistics, the dialect is spoken by at least 8,000 people.

Classification


Despite the fact that the Greek community in Himara is located in the north of the Greek state and the region is often referred to as Northern Epirus in Greece, the dialect of the city of Himara is classified as a southern dialect (it does not precipitate or drop vowels from Common Greek - features that also have the dialects of the rest of Northern Epirus and the prefecture of Thesprotia ) . Although it has been suggested that there are similarities with the dialects spoken in Apulia in Lower Italy and Mani in the Peloponnese , the exact origin of the northern Epirotian dialects remains unknown.On the other hand, the dialects of Drymades and Palasa, respectively, are classified as semi-northern dialects.

Due to the geographical isolation of the region, the local dialect of Himara was cut off from the other Greek dialects and evolved at a slower pace, maintaining a more conservative and faithful image of the medieval Greek language . Among the other various interpretations that have been proposed to explain the differentiation of the dialect, is that this dialect, along with other conservative forms of the modern Greek language, such as the Maniatic dialect , was spoken by populations that were in a de facto state of autonomy from the Ottomans . Another linguistic analysis suggests that Himara was colonized by Greeks from South Italy after Turkish sack of the town of Otranto in Apulia in 1480, but this position has been strongly contested. Other positions suggest that there are similarities with the Cretan dialect and the Corfu dialect .


Usage and phonology
Himariotika is spoken mainly in the city of Himara , as well as in the nearby seaside villages of Drymades and Palasa with differences in pronunciation. Himariotika also has some elements from the Tosc dialect of the Albanian language .


A common feature of the northern Epirotians and the sub-group of the Chimarriotians, is the use of the archaic disyllabic form -ea. In addition, the phoneme [ /s/ ] is pronounced slightly differently depending on the region, in Drymadas as a soft [ /š'/ ] while in Himarra as a hard [ /š/ ]. The inhabitants of Himarra also pronounce [ /ķ/ ] as [ /ć/ ]. Another characteristic that is a rule in Chimarriotika is the turn /st/ > /s/ .
 
My old hypothesis was that South Illyrians were like BGR_IA and enriched with E-V13 and Northern Illyrians were North Italian-like high in J2b and the Albanians are descended from Northern Illyrians that went South and mixed with the South Illyrians. Regardless Albania must have received a new wave of population that arrived during the Dark Ages whenever it be Thracians or North Illyrians or Dacians or whatever. Otherwise we would be mentioned in early Byzantine Chronicles.

And nobody cares about how "autochthonous" you are. It was never an accomplishment. Somehow you got it twisted in your minds and went bragging with it.
 
Dorian9 said:
Himariote dialect of the Greek language
The Himariote dialect of the Greek language or Himariotika is spoken mainly by Greeks in the municipality of Himara in Albania , and specifically by the residents of the city of Himara and the villages of Drymades and Palasa . Each settlement has its own variation of Himariotiki. While all 3 variants use the same basic vocabulary, they differ mainly in pronunciation. According to 2008 statistics, the dialect is spoken by at least 8,000 people.

Classification


Despite the fact that the Greek community in Himara is located in the north of the Greek state and the region is often referred to as Northern Epirus in Greece, the dialect of the city of Himara is classified as a southern dialect (it does not precipitate or drop vowels from Common Greek - features that also have the dialects of the rest of Northern Epirus and the prefecture of Thesprotia ) . Although it has been suggested that there are similarities with the dialects spoken in Apulia in Lower Italy and Mani in the Peloponnese , the exact origin of the northern Epirotian dialects remains unknown.On the other hand, the dialects of Drymades and Palasa, respectively, are classified as semi-northern dialects.

Due to the geographical isolation of the region, the local dialect of Himara was cut off from the other Greek dialects and evolved at a slower pace, maintaining a more conservative and faithful image of the medieval Greek language . Among the other various interpretations that have been proposed to explain the differentiation of the dialect, is that this dialect, along with other conservative forms of the modern Greek language, such as the Maniatic dialect , was spoken by populations that were in a de facto state of autonomy from the Ottomans . Another linguistic analysis suggests that Himara was colonized by Greeks from South Italy after Turkish sack of the town of Otranto in Apulia in 1480, but this position has been strongly contested. Other positions suggest that there are similarities with the Cretan dialect and the Corfu dialect .


Usage and phonology
Himariotika is spoken mainly in the city of Himara , as well as in the nearby seaside villages of Drymades and Palasa with differences in pronunciation. Himariotika also has some elements from the Tosc dialect of the Albanian language .


A common feature of the northern Epirotians and the sub-group of the Chimarriotians, is the use of the archaic disyllabic form -ea. In addition, the phoneme [ /s/ ] is pronounced slightly differently depending on the region, in Drymadas as a soft [ /š'/ ] while in Himarra as a hard [ /š/ ]. The inhabitants of Himarra also pronounce [ /ķ/ ] as [ /ć/ ]. Another characteristic that is a rule in Chimarriotika is the turn /st/ > /s/ .
Click to expand...

Yes Corfiot dialect. Makes sense, it was the contact with the Greeks from Corfu that Hellenized the regions.
 
ihype02 said:
Yes Corfiot dialect. Makes sense, it was the contact with the Greeks from Corfu that Hellenized the regions.
Click to expand...

I don't know about that , you could contact the linguists and present them your findings ,tell us when that's done so we can be updated.
 
ellines-albanoi.blogspot.com dardanoillirotrojanarberpelazg+++ type of stuff ,sure I'm gonna read it.
 
Dorian9 said:
ellines-albanoi.blogspot.com dardanoillirotrojanarberpelazg+++ type of stuff ,sure I'm gonna read it.
Click to expand...

The documents are from the 19th century. You can find them in Google Books. Since you speak Greek (I don't) just type identically some of those lines, very likely it will pop in the very first page.
 
ihype02 said:
According to history those villages spoke Albanian as their mother language in the 19th century.

The evidence is very strong and RECENT (20th/19th century) to be ignored. The J2a could've been a medieval Greek man assimilated, but it does not change the fact. I am gonna stick to evidence. I remember 8% Slavic admixture in Peloponnese and "Illyrian" Bosnians and many other things that I wont mention years ago that contradicted hard historical data. Now all of it has been debunked. I am sure this one will fall off shortly.
Click to expand...

William Leake was the one that claimed the woman folk do not speak Greek. In Edward Leare's time (50 years later) the Himariot did not consider themselves either Greek or Albanian. There is also another book which I have not saved back when google books were free, a traveler from 1800s claimed that many Himariots were exiled by Ali in Thessaly as forced farm labor, they returned after Ali got beheaded.

However the Greek speech emerged or was maintained, from personal observations, 1/3 of Himariots do not look like Albanians or the Slavic-Greek or east med Greek types, it is a unique look, possibly how the true ancient Greeks used to look. About 1/3 look like Albanians, and another third resembles Balkan with Slavic mixture type. I was surprised how many were light haired more so than the Albanian average, many had curly type hair even when blonde, I barely ever noticed this among Albanians. There is something unique going on in their gene pool.

Personally I doubt their Greekness is entirely artificial, though "Greekness" drastically varies, the proper Greek minority in Albania for example, is high on Slavic haplogroups. The Greek speakers of Narta are literally Greekophone Slavs, overwhelmingly I2a-Din.
 
Dorian9 said:
Himariote dialect of the Greek language
The Himariote dialect of the Greek language or Himariotika is spoken mainly by Greeks in the municipality of Himara in Albania , and specifically by the residents of the city of Himara and the villages of Drymades and Palasa . Each settlement has its own variation of Himariotiki. While all 3 variants use the same basic vocabulary, they differ mainly in pronunciation. According to 2008 statistics, the dialect is spoken by at least 8,000 people.

Classification


Despite the fact that the Greek community in Himara is located in the north of the Greek state and the region is often referred to as Northern Epirus in Greece, the dialect of the city of Himara is classified as a southern dialect (it does not precipitate or drop vowels from Common Greek - features that also have the dialects of the rest of Northern Epirus and the prefecture of Thesprotia ) . Although it has been suggested that there are similarities with the dialects spoken in Apulia in Lower Italy and Mani in the Peloponnese , the exact origin of the northern Epirotian dialects remains unknown.On the other hand, the dialects of Drymades and Palasa, respectively, are classified as semi-northern dialects.

Due to the geographical isolation of the region, the local dialect of Himara was cut off from the other Greek dialects and evolved at a slower pace, maintaining a more conservative and faithful image of the medieval Greek language . Among the other various interpretations that have been proposed to explain the differentiation of the dialect, is that this dialect, along with other conservative forms of the modern Greek language, such as the Maniatic dialect , was spoken by populations that were in a de facto state of autonomy from the Ottomans . Another linguistic analysis suggests that Himara was colonized by Greeks from South Italy after Turkish sack of the town of Otranto in Apulia in 1480, but this position has been strongly contested. Other positions suggest that there are similarities with the Cretan dialect and the Corfu dialect .


Usage and phonology
Himariotika is spoken mainly in the city of Himara , as well as in the nearby seaside villages of Drymades and Palasa with differences in pronunciation. Himariotika also has some elements from the Tosc dialect of the Albanian language .


A common feature of the northern Epirotians and the sub-group of the Chimarriotians, is the use of the archaic disyllabic form -ea. In addition, the phoneme [ /s/ ] is pronounced slightly differently depending on the region, in Drymadas as a soft [ /š'/ ] while in Himarra as a hard [ /š/ ]. The inhabitants of Himarra also pronounce [ /ķ/ ] as [ /ć/ ]. Another characteristic that is a rule in Chimarriotika is the turn /st/ > /s/ .
Click to expand...
Think for a moment that Wikipedia shut down. It's the end of the world for a Greek, lol.

Memoirs of the affairs of Greece, containing an account of the military and political events which occurred in 1823 and following years

Page 208-209

A few days after our arrival in this village, Spiro Milio presented himself to Mavrocordato, with a corps of two hundred picked Chimariots, the most martial-looking men in the whole army. They are not to be distinguished from Albanians, their dress and language being perfectly similar; but though their religion is Greek, they do not understand one syllable of Romaic. This young man belonged to some of the best families in the Chimara mountains. His uncle, who during many years served as major in the Albanian regiment in the service of Naples, took him, when a youth, over to that country, where he remained several years. Born in a country, the inaccessible nature of which had ever preserved it independent, he learned in Italy to appreciate the blessings of civil liberty; and education, by awakening patriotism, taught him his duty, stimulated his courage, and armed his hand. He explained to the capitani, who received him, the motives, by which he had been induced to leave his native mountains; why he had resolved to devote himself to the assistance of his coreliglonaries, as long as the struggle, in which they were engaged, should last; and all this in a plain, unadorned manner, yet with a grace and dignity, a fluency and harmony that captivated all his hearers. To much penetration and judgment, he united a modesty, rare at his age, particularly among his countrymen. He was brave and disinterested ; and every Philhelleue, that knew him, could not forbear exclaiming, " Happy were Greece, did she possess more men like this!" “
Source: Memoirs of the affairs of Greece, containing an account of the military and political events which occurred in 1823 and following years : Millingen, Julius Michael, 1800-1878 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Yeah!!!!
 
Olti27 said:
Nuk lodhen kta kojshit. Do durojmë edhe ca.
Click to expand...
Çua qi robt plehrave, atë punë kanë. Kruhen shumë sepse kanë tendenca të theksuara mazokiste. Mjafton të hapësh një libër çfarëdo historie dhe mbeten si të menderosur. Inatin e kam me këta shqipëfolësit.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
William Leake was the one that claimed the woman folk do not speak Greek. In Edward Leare's time (50 years later) the Himariot did not consider themselves either Greek or Albanian. There is also another book which I have not saved back when google books were free, a traveler from 1800s claimed that many Himariots were exiled by Ali in Thessaly as forced farm labor, they returned after Ali got beheaded.

However the Greek speech emerged or was maintained, from personal observations, 1/3 of Himariots do not look like Albanians or the Slavic-Greek or east med Greek types, it is a unique look, possibly how the true ancient Greeks used to look. About 1/3 look like Albanians, and another third resembles Balkan with Slavic mixture type. I was surprised how many were light haired more so than the Albanian average, many had curly type hair even when blonde, I barely ever noticed this among Albanians. There is something unique going on in their gene pool.

Personally I doubt their Greekness is entirely artificial, though "Greekness" drastically varies, the proper Greek minority in Albania for example, is high on Slavic haplogroups. The Greek speakers of Narta are literally Greekophone Slavs, overwhelmingly I2a-Din.
Click to expand...

Yeah right if they had 33% Classical Greek Epirote admixture they would fall all the way out of mainland Greek and Albanian cluster, running towards Sardinia. Most of Ancient Epirotes were exterminated 2000 years ago. J2a there is founder effect.

Vlachs of Albania have really high I2a, so Greeks of Albania having high I2a makes sense.
 
Was 40% to 50% Germanic Y-DNA in England founder effect too after the Roman Empire as E-V13 in Albania?
Distance to:England_Roman
0.01035444Orcadian
0.01119232Scottish
0.01218382English
0.01242992Welsh
0.01325782Irish
0.01418575Dutch
0.01428334English_Cornwall
0.01624564French_Brittany
0.01759155Danish
0.01942868Norwegian
0.01983105Icelandic
0.02068172Shetlandic
0.02338250Afrikaner
0.02401043BelgianA
0.02404264German
0.02697627German_Hamburg
0.02988358BelgianB
0.03056234Swedish
0.03078373German_Erlangen
0.03213594French_Nord
0.03220535French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03342267French_Seine-Maritime
0.03468242BelgianC
0.03612353French_Alsace
0.03665699French_Paris

Even when Roman era Britons are much closer to modern Britons than Roman Albanians era were to modern Albanians. A Thracian/Eastern source is essential even without taking Y-DNA in consideration.
 
ihype02 said:
Yeah right if they had 33% Classical Greek Epirote admixture they would fall all the way out of mainland Greek and Albanian cluster, running towards Sardinia. Most of Ancient Epirotes were exterminated 2000 years ago. J2a there is founder effect.

Vlachs of Albania have really high I2a, so Greeks of Albania having high I2a makes sense.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it was the Molossians that took this massive blow and not the Chaones. Just pointing that out, I personally don't care about Epirots, I'm not under some illusions of descending from them. The so called Epirot mixture among south Albanians is really the semi-Hellenized Slavs, it is not really Epirot, just mislabeled as such.
 
ihype02 said:
Was 40% to 50% Germanic Y-DNA in England founder effect too after the Roman Empire as E-V13 in Albania?
Distance to:England_Roman
0.01035444Orcadian
0.01119232Scottish
0.01218382English
0.01242992Welsh
0.01325782Irish
0.01418575Dutch
0.01428334English_Cornwall
0.01624564French_Brittany
0.01759155Danish
0.01942868Norwegian
0.01983105Icelandic
0.02068172Shetlandic
0.02338250Afrikaner
0.02401043BelgianA
0.02404264German
0.02697627German_Hamburg
0.02988358BelgianB
0.03056234Swedish
0.03078373German_Erlangen
0.03213594French_Nord
0.03220535French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03342267French_Seine-Maritime
0.03468242BelgianC
0.03612353French_Alsace
0.03665699French_Paris

Even when Roman era Britons are much closer to modern Britons than Roman Albanians era were to modern Albanians. A Thracian/Eastern source is essential even without taking Y-DNA in consideration.
Click to expand...

The English are really glorious Celts, I1 and R1b-S21 Britons are likely hiding somewhere, it's just that the Proper Dictus Britunus have not been tested yet. This is Roman propaganda, trying to mislabel the English as Anglo tribes from Germany. So much conspiracy against the Britons.
 
ihype02 said:
Was 40% to 50% Germanic Y-DNA in England founder effect too after the Roman Empire as E-V13 in Albania?
Distance to:England_Roman
0.01035444Orcadian
0.01119232Scottish
0.01218382English
0.01242992Welsh
0.01325782Irish
0.01418575Dutch
0.01428334English_Cornwall
0.01624564French_Brittany
0.01759155Danish
0.01942868Norwegian
0.01983105Icelandic
0.02068172Shetlandic
0.02338250Afrikaner
0.02401043BelgianA
0.02404264German
0.02697627German_Hamburg
0.02988358BelgianB
0.03056234Swedish
0.03078373German_Erlangen
0.03213594French_Nord
0.03220535French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03342267French_Seine-Maritime
0.03468242BelgianC
0.03612353French_Alsace
0.03665699French_Paris

Even when Roman era Britons are much closer to modern Britons than Roman Albanians era were to modern Albanians. A Thracian/Eastern source is essential even without taking Y-DNA in consideration.
Click to expand...

Ca rrot kari eshte ky. E papare fare.

Literally every argument you make about Albanians can be made about Greeks who are a larger population. You're so obsessed with EV13 in Albanians you forget it's all over the Balkans and Greeks have have ~ the same % as Albanians. I already told you:

(1) We have Thracian inscriptions. They are not related to Albanians linguistically. The Greek language has 0 Thracian words and are high EV13. Montenegro is almost 30% EV13.

(2) We have Thracian samples. They plot far away from Albanians on PCA, while Albanians plot right next to Illyrians.

This guy reminds me of morons blaming COVID on their own country's leaders when it's a global pandemic. EV13 is all over Europe. Even in Austria it reaches 10%.
 
If you wanted to argue about EV13 being spread externally, you'd pinpoint it to Roman Imperial admixture. The proximity of those samples to eastern Anatolia boosts that.

Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


Thracians are not spreading 25% to Greeks, 15% EV 13 to Italy, 20% in Ile of France, and up to 10% in Austro-Hungarians.
 
enter_tain said:
If you wanted to argue about EV13 being spread externally, you'd pinpoint it to Roman Imperial admixture. The proximity of those samples to eastern Anatolia boosts that.

Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


Thracians are not spreading 25% to Greeks, 15% EV 13 to Italy, 20% in Ile of France, and up to 10% in Austro-Hungarians.
Click to expand...

Ever heard of the Thraco-Cimmerians, Eastern Hallstatt and the Dacians? Thsoe will play their role. We see it in the phylogeny of E-V13, these were the large upticks after the LBA-EIA transition. The Roman era was one big downfall for E-V13, so at best a redistribution, but not the era of growth and spread as such.

If you mind, much of Greece was Thracian anyway:
20151020215627-c40bcc2b-me.jpg


And this is a conservative map, with their influence reaching much further to the West.

Also, if you use the standard heatmap, the area of the Daco-Thracians being still largely covered by the above 9 %:
https://phylogeographer.com/scripts/heatmap.php
 
enter_tain said:
If you wanted to argue about EV13 being spread externally, you'd pinpoint it to Roman Imperial admixture. The proximity of those samples to eastern Anatolia boosts that.

Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


Thracians are not spreading 25% to Greeks, 15% EV 13 to Italy, 20% in Ile of France, and up to 10% in Austro-Hungarians.
Click to expand...
E-V13 existed outside of Thracians too. E-V13 existed in Central Europe too and other places.

And E-V13 in Greece is obviously a medieval phenomenon. Why would Cretans lack it and not Peloponnesians?

Only in Central and Southern Italy it can be a founder effect where it is around 5% to 8%.
 
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