Formation of Human Populations in Central and South Asia

The accurate YFull Y haplogroups for 176 out of 283 of the ancient Narasimhan et al. (2019) Central Asian, South Asian. Steppe, and European individuals.
http://open-genomes.org/genomes/Nar..._9fgY_G9tAU5N8i0x_LejvWzOEmbFdpXFuNJhYiFFZZHg


thanks for sharing this :)(y)
so i2085 the bmac dude is also positive for e-m34
acording to open genome analysis
there is also one e-z830
and the others in the E family are e-m123*- pre-y31991


p.s
i10551 bmac dude is also e1b1b-m215
but i take him with grain of salt very low coverge :unsure:
 
thanks for sharing this :)(y)
so i2085 the bmac dude is also positive for e-m34
acording to open genome analysis
there is also one e-z830
and the others in the E family are e-m123*- pre-y31991


p.s
i10551 bmac dude is also e1b1b-m215
but i take him with grain of salt very low coverge :unsure:

It would be very unlikey for the BMAC individuals to also be E-Y31991, considering those Udegram guys with the clade lack BMAC ancestry. It would have had to be totally diluted by the time they had gotten to the Swat valley. It's a shame the BAM files are a lot smaller when compared to the other Y31991 sample from Kazakhstan (most are 1/3rd of its size), so we can't be totally certain they are also part of the same subclade..although odds are they probably were, and shared an ancestor some time before 1500BC when the Indo-Iranian/Aryan migrations took place.

I can tell you that Y31991 is very fragmented just by looking at my Big-Y blocktree in FTDNA alone, it seems statistically very unlikely that different clades that split at different times, of an already very rare male lineage, somehow ended up both in the same place in Europe to go on an unlikely piggyback ride into the Central Asian steppes and end up on the far eastern edges of the IE-speaking world in groups that were historically related - early Iranian-speakers such as pre/proto-Scythians/Sakas (Dasa/Dahae tribes, for example) and Indo-Iranian/Aryan(Dardic?) Swat tribes during the Vedic period which are also present in the Avesta, as the 7th of the 16 regions created by Ahura Mazda (Vaēkərəta /Gandhara), so there's an ancient early Iranian connection that cannot be ignored, and ties in very well with the Scythian sample too. Having these being different and separated by thousands of years doesn't add up, but it's technically not impossible
 
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Thanks rudrigue but
The swat pre-y31991 samples are more older in time than the saka sample from north east kazachstan
Do you consider migration from south asia to the central steppe area also as option?
Kind regards
Adam
 
Thanks rudrigue but
The swat pre-y31991 samples are more older in time than the saka sample from north east kazachstan
Do you consider migration from south asia to the central steppe area also as option?
Kind regards
Adam

They are, and that is perfectly fine. The older sample is also an outlier and has higher Steppe_MLBA ancestry too, which makes sense since he's closer in time to the original migrants from Central Asia. The Saka had a Western Steppe profile, so a South->North migration is not likely at all. But as I said they probably shared an ancestor sometime before these IE groups moved into South Asia, before 1500BC, it then split into a South Asian group (Udegram/Swat) and another that stayed in Central Asia (the Saka).

My guess is that they were originally Iranian-speakers, and that these Udegram individuals are not Aryan-speaking but early Iranian Dasas (based on the evidence form the last post, besides they didn't cremate their dead)..but there's no way to know
 
So what is your theory
if i understand ......
That some people who belonged to haplogroup e-m123* were absorbed by indo- european tribes who belonged mainly to haplogroups r1a, q,r1b and than moved with them south ?
 
So what is your theory
if i understand ......
That some people who belonged to haplogroup e-m123* were absorbed by indo- european tribes who belonged mainly to haplogroups r1a, q,r1b and than moved with them south ?
Yes, first East then South into the subcontinent, also some subclade of I2a as we've seen in it in Swat Valley. Both probably entered into these IE-speaking groups coming from European farmers, which explains why they are a minority since these peoples were very patriarchal.
Other branches of Y31991 (most of them) however were probably not included and should be your average farmer lineage in Europe and the Levant. Which is why I find it unlikely the Udegram and Saka belong to different branches, since Y31991 isn't native to anywhere near northern Pakistan or eastern Kazakhstan, and is some 10000 years old
 
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Yes, first East then South into the subcontinent, also some subclade of I2a as we've seen in it in Swat Valley. Both probably entered into these IE-speaking groups coming from European farmers, which explains why they are a minority since these peoples were very patriarchal.
Other branches of Y31991 (most of them) however were probably not included and should be your average farmer lineage in Europe and the Levant. Which is why I find it unlikely the Udegram and Saka belong to different branches, since Y31991 isn't native to anywhere near northern Pakistan or eastern Kazakhstan, and is some 10000 years old

i always thought of the cases of y31991 branches in west poland , moldova as some farmer as you said
but the cases of it in southwest germany and west france as some old european celtic line
regards
Adam
 
i always thought of the cases of y31991 branches in west poland , moldova as some farmer as you said
but the cases of it in southwest germany and west france as some old european celtic line
regards
Adam
Maybe, maybe not, at the moment there's no way to know. But be it as it may, Y31991 is so old in Europe that it's perfectly plausible (and I'd say likely) that it was eventually part of whatever Celtic or para-Celtic cultures existed in various areas of Europe throughout the millennia. My particular branch might actually be Indo-Iranian though
 
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Btw kingjohn, on the Celtic thing. While these lineages are very likely neolithic in origin, its dispersal might indeed be related to Celts (or para/proto-Celtic peoples). This is just being inferred, but on FTDNA Big-y Blocktree I can see the European individuals are all originally from Western Europe: Portugal, Spain, France, Germany, Canada and Brazil. There's Valerius, who's Bulgarian, but he shares a much more recent branch with a Canadian of French descent. Then there's my FTDNA y matches, who are all Iberian, and going by their surnames our original ancestor was probably from eastern Galicia or western Asturias, in NW Spain.

Keep in mind that, even though my branch is possibly the one found in the Indo-Iranian groups, the subclade itself has a TMRCA of over 5000 years, so it's possible that they belong to a sub-branch, and that I belong to another, and if that case it's perfectly plausible that mine is European, rather than Asian, too.

I checked those I2a individuals in Swat, who are with my E-Y31991 folks, and their haplogroup is I2a2a1b1b1. I2a2a1 equal to I-M223 and it's presence is also mostly in Western Europe, and less in Scandinavia. However, its TMRCA is even older than Y31991, at ~12000ybp. Its hard to know what really happened, maybe it's one of those haplogroups that were somewhere in eastern or southeastern Europe during the Chalcolithic and got picked up by early IEs and moved into Asia, but most of its surviving individuals stayed in Europe, and dispersed into the West for whatever reason (maybe the same as E-Y31991?)


It's a good thing I don't give uniparental markers much personal importance, because if I did I'd be pretty lost.
 
Davidski comment to one of his blogers:

Heil r1a..... lol

vAsiSTha
It makes no difference who's involved in the paper.
If the paper argues or even suggests that Eastern European steppe populations didn't spread R1a-Z93 into Central and South Asia during the Bronze Age, then every single author on that paper is officially an idiot.
 
Btw kingjohn, on the Celtic thing. While these lineages are very likely neolithic in origin, its dispersal might indeed be related to Celts (or para/proto-Celtic peoples). This is just being inferred, but on FTDNA Big-y Blocktree I can see the European individuals are all originally from Western Europe: Portugal, Spain, France, Germany, Canada and Brazil. There's Valerius, who's Bulgarian, but he shares a much more recent branch with a Canadian of French descent. Then there's my FTDNA y matches, who are all Iberian, and going by their surnames our original ancestor was probably from eastern Galicia or western Asturias, in NW Spain.

Keep in mind that, even though my branch is possibly the one found in the Indo-Iranian groups, the subclade itself has a TMRCA of over 5000 years, so it's possible that they belong to a sub-branch, and that I belong to another, and if that case it's perfectly plausible that mine is European, rather than Asian, too.

I checked those I2a individuals in Swat, who are with my E-Y31991 folks, and their haplogroup is I2a2a1b1b1. I2a2a1 equal to I-M223 and it's presence is also mostly in Western Europe, and less in Scandinavia. However, its TMRCA is even older than Y31991, at ~12000ybp. Its hard to know what really happened, maybe it's one of those haplogroups that were somewhere in eastern or southeastern Europe during the Chalcolithic and got picked up by early IEs and moved into Asia, but most of its surviving individuals stayed in Europe, and dispersed into the West for whatever reason (maybe the same as E-Y31991?)


It's a good thing I don't give uniparental markers much personal importance, because if I did I'd be pretty lost.


who would have thought to find I2A and rare e-m123* in north pakistan :shocked:
it is realy a surprise
about e-y31991
if it was a farmer haplogroup why does it is so low in modern day compared to the m78 branch the e-v13 group ?
 
Possibly because E-Y31991 and E-V13 folks weren't in the same areas/cultures in Europe during the time of IE expansions, so they became part of different groups. That could explain why Y31991 is mostly West European and V13 is not
 
Possibly because E-Y31991 and E-V13 folks weren't in the same areas/cultures in Europe during the time of IE expansions, so they became part of different groups. That could explain why Y31991 is mostly West European and V13 is not


there was another e-m123* who is french Canadian
but i will not post his name because of gpd rules
 
Yes, I know who the family is, that's valerius' branch
 
Yes, first East then South into the subcontinent, also some subclade of I2a as we've seen in it in Swat Valley. Both probably entered into these IE-speaking groups coming from European farmers, which explains why they are a minority since these peoples were very patriarchal.
Other branches of Y31991 (most of them) however were probably not included and should be your average farmer lineage in Europe and the Levant. Which is why I find it unlikely the Udegram and Saka belong to different branches, since Y31991 isn't native to anywhere near northern Pakistan or eastern Kazakhstan, and is some 10000 years old

How do you think about Aryan marker Z93?

I think subclade was not mutated as we know like a process of "R-M198>M417>Z645>Z93." Looks like scythian R1a m513 be directly mutated into Z93 w/o that process. So I think south asian z93 could originate in R1a m513, not in Z645, like scythian.
Even if Z645 is upstream of z93, maybe CWC Z645 could not be mutated into Z93 in reality. That is why I think modern european barely has R1a- z93.

in this work, we first aim to address the question of the familial and social organization of scytho-siberian groups by studying the genetic relationship of 29 individuals from the aldy-bel and sagly cultures using autosomal strs. (…) were obtained from 5 archeological sites located in the valley of the eerbek river in tuva republic, russia (fig. 1). y-chromosome haplogroups were first assigned using the isogg 2018 nomenclature. in order to improve the precision of haplogroup definition, we also analyzed a set of y-chromosome snp (supplementary table 2). nine samples belonged to the r1a-m513 haplogroup (defined by marker m513) and two of these nine samples were characterized as belonging to the r1a1a1b2-z93 haplogroup or one of its subclades. six samples belonged to the q1b1a-l54 haplogroup and five of these six samples belonged to the q1b1a3-l330 subclade. one sample belonged to the n-m231 haplogroup. in the same way, although two groups, of two and three individuals, shared haplotypes belonging to the r1a-m513 haplogroup, these groups likely include a father/son pair (arz-t2 and arz-t12). therefore, among nine r1a-m513 men, we found six independent haplotypes, one being present in two independent instances. all r1a-m513 haplotypes, however, including those attributed to the r1a1a1b2-z93 subclade, only differed by one-step mutations, across 5 loci at most. all r1a-m513 individuals were buried on the same site, eki-ottug 2, in a single kurgan.


R1a-Z93+maps+small.png
 
You may be right, honestly I never bothered analysing that haplogroup or giving it much thought, because it is not mine. In fact, I barely care about my own haplogroup because of how little genetic data a y chromosome has, and see it merely as a "cool thing". I'm still on the fence whether mine is actually Indo-Iranian, or just your average neolithic EEF marker that got spread into Western Europe
 
Just checked the supplementary materials:

Hajji_Firuz_BA
(n=1):

• F11, 3 (I4243):
Date of 2465-2286 calBCE (3875±25 BP, PSUAMS-2113). Genetically female. This individual is a genetic outlier and is also an intrusive burial from the Bronze Age based on its radiocarbon dating. This individual has additional Steppe pastoralist related admixture when compared with the other individuals from the Copper Age.

Could she be part of an IE Early Bronze Age migration which brought Armenian and maybe IE Gutian to the region (Northwest Iran) ?
 

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