Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

The modern PCA:
europe.png




Then take a look at the PCAs in this section:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature23310_SF5.html

Extended Data Figure 5: Correspondence of qpAdm estimates with PCA.




This is just one of the graphics:
View attachment 8999

Click to enlarge.

Perhaps someone handier than I am at this can upload all of them in larger size.

If I'm mistaken, correct me, but the Mycenaeans are smack in the middle of the modern Sicilians, yes? I guess some people haven't read the whole paper yet.
 
@Maciamo

Maciamo ti si clear that Doris=ans never inveded Greece,
the one who invade are the Myceneans,

Lazarides just certified Triantafylides,
and allows the open space of Giannopoulos.

the I1 in Greece I doupt it is Germanic,
All genetists in Greece found and are certain that is paliolithic,
Sarakatsans are heavily in I1 and are consider the pre-glacial population of Greece.
in fact at all the palaiolithic congresses that is discussed,
and there is also one Y-Dna that is still kept in a kind of fog.
But I1 of Sarakatsans is considered the most ancient not only in Greece but in a wider area,

So indeed as Lazarides certified Triantafyllides then we have 11% paleolithic
59% post Glacial
20% Neolithic farmers
only 10 % of we call IE (Yamnaa etc)

on the other hand Giannopoulos believed that Descent Of Myceneans (NOTICE MYCENEANS NOT DORIANS as belived at 1928)
was a massive Huge devastation of IE from Vucedol/Vucocar/Vatin who came from Yamnaa and Steppe.
But it seems that Lazarides measures the same % that Triantafyllides claim
the 7-13% of Myceneans is From Vucedol or ProtoCetina,
so I think Lazrides results just certifies and unites the previous olders Triantafyllides and Giannopoulos,

in fact the question now is could 7-10-13% of Vucedol change the language to IE?
or the neolithic 20%, or ...?

the numbers of Lazarides simply certify the previous works done,
and give result in balance with older searches.

I agree that more Mycenean,
as also Thessalian and Makedonian Neolithic and Bronze age would give better results,
but not in very long from these,

as for North Greece
N Greece was Half NW Greeks and Half Thracians.
N Greece ones run out of men who moved by Alexander
N Greece was raided and habitetd by SLavs and enough mark of them is still here.
Gauls entered Greece but moved to North to end at Galateia,
the Gaulish remnants, especially in Kutsuk Vlachs are from Roman legions and Roman citizens.
The EXTRA SLAVIC mark is cause some Vlachs are from Slavic descent (Antes Romanised Slavs)

considering that Makedonia which is main body of N Greece,
was the land of heaven for Aromani Epirotans and Greeks of Balkans (Bulgaria Romania Albania Serbo-Croatia Istria Austria Hungary Alexandreia France Russia)
after 1860,
and the favorite tactic of Ottoman to break omogenous population was to devaste other populations,
that gives a strong change amore than 25% to be different and more North East and Central European.

as for mtDNA X2.
I am that rare mtDNA:LOL:
but it is possible in Greece to be X2 than to be U,
 
Jovialis said:
Click to expand...

Thank-you.

Listen, I'd love to find that the Myceneaens cluster with my half quasi-Tuscan/Ligurian) maternal side, but I don't think they're near us.

I've had to come to grips with ancient dna too. My father had me convinced when I was young that we were pure Romans and Etruscans. Those Celts were chased back to central Europe and the Germans were limited to benighted areas of the north-east.

You adjust. I'm still Italian.

Other people are going to have to adjust too, not to mention that someone who derives so much of his or her sense of self-worth from ancient migrations 5,000 years ago has a serious psychological and emotional problem imo.

@Yetos,

You're absolutely dead wrong, and particularly about this:
So indeed as Lazarides certified Triantafyllides then we have 11% paleolithic
59% post Glacial
20% Neolithic farmers
only 10 % of we call IE (Yamnaa etc)

Please read the paper, ok?
 
Maciamo said:
More recently I suggested that they also carried E-V13 and J2b lineages and that they may have been related to the Illyrians who invaded the Balkans around the same time.
Click to expand...
Which "J2b" do you mean?
J2b2a-L283 found in Bronze Age Dalmatia, or J2b1-M205 found multiple times in Bronze Age Levant? Keep also in mind they split from each other ca. 15,900 ybp, so it's almost like lumping all R1a and R1b into "R1".
 
^ thanks for posting that!
 
Angela, on the non projection-biased PCA by David (check my previous post), the main Mycenaean cluster seems to be a bit closer to farmers than southern (islander?) Greeks and Italians are. Same with Armenoi but compared to more northern (central?) Greeks and Tuscans (and I assume south Albanians). Of course that's only part of the story etc.

I wanna see how the non-projected central-northern Balkan samples we got before plot too when he runs them. Based on their projected position, they seem like they'd plot somewhere close to North Italians/Iberians.
 
Same old, same old...

So, some amateur, from a racist site like forumbiodiversity no less, does an analysis that purports to show that Greeks from Thessaly are 30% Ukrainian, and the rest Myceneaen means there's no continuity in Greece? Yeah, right.

Next time use a more proximate population too, while you're at it, and use some Peloponnese Greeks while you're at it.

No wonder Sikeliot and all his alter egos talking to each other have found a nest at anthrogenica now. Pathetic.

My days of occasionally reading some ancient dna posts there are over.

When you people are in the ranks of the foremost population geneticists in the world, and even understand the bioinformatics in this paper, bioinformatics produced by people like not only Lazaridis, but people like Nick Patterson, give me a holler.

,
 
Angela said:
There's a trend only if more ancient dna shows she wasn't an anomaly.
Click to expand...

You are right. We need more specimens from Classical and/or Hellenistic Greece to verify such a thing. Perhaps also from Northern parts of Greece in the Mycenean era. But at this point it doesn't really matter. The point has been made, the genetic make-up of the Greeks for the last 5000 years is changing very slowly. At this point, it would seem that the 21st century will have most impact on the genetic pool of the Greek population since the Bronze Age. But this is true for many nations in Europe of course. It's evolution doing its job.
 
Angela said:
Thank-you.

Listen, I'd love to find that the Myceneaens cluster with my half quasi-Tuscan/Ligurian) maternal side, but I don't think they're near us.

I've had to come to grips with ancient dna too. My father had me convinced when I was young that we were pure Romans and Etruscans. Those Celts were chased back to central Europe and the Germans were limited to benighted areas of the north-east.

You adjust. I'm still Italian.

Other people are going to have to adjust too, not to mention that someone who derives so much of his or her sense of self-worth from ancient migrations 5,000 years ago has a serious psychological and emotional problem imo.
Click to expand...

I'm a little confused by what you mean, or if you are referring to me. Maybe I confused the article that the modern populations from those areas in Sicily, southern Italy and Albania have a genetic similarity to modern Greeks from the mainland or islands; with them being related to Mycenaean and Minoans. But it's not something I need to comes to grips with. :LOL:

But yes, the ancient populations that lived in those areas could be significantly different, from before the Greeks arrived.

And yea, I do think it's weird that people think populations from 5,000 years ago is essential in measuring their self-worth.
 
Trojet said:
Which "J2b" do you mean?
J2b2a-L283 found in Bronze Age Dalmatia, or J2b1-M205 found multiple times in Bronze Age Levant? Keep also in mind they split from each other ca. 15,900 ybp, so it's almost like lumping all R1a and R1b into "R1".
Click to expand...

Didn't we already talk about this with Maciamo.. Why is he doing the same mistake over and over again.. Weird.
 
LATGAL said:
Angela, on the non projection-biased PCA by David (check my previous post), the main Mycenaean cluster seems to be a bit closer to farmers than southern (islander?) Greeks and Italians are. Same with Armenoi but compared to more northern (central?) Greeks and Tuscans (and I assume south Albanians). Of course that's only part of the story etc.

I wanna see how the non-projected central-northern Balkan samples we got before plot too when he runs them. Based on their projected position, they seem like they'd plot somewhere close to North Italians/Iberians.
Click to expand...

It would certainly be interesting to see all the ancient samples plotted together, especially the ones from not only the Balkans but from Anatolia and southern Italy when we get them.

For now, we do have, on the latest link I provided to the paper, both the actual and simulated Mycenaean plotted with Anatolia Neolithic, Armenia Chalcolithic, Steppe EMBA, Steppe MLBA, and Europe LMBA, and the Mycenaeans are nowhere near the steppe or even Europe LMBA, contrary to the confident prediction by Davidski/Polako from just a few weeks ago that they would be very steppe like. I'm sure that Balkan Bronze Age samples will be closer to Mycenaeans. That's a given imo.

(I'm adding that to my telephone directory sized list of his mistaken predictions.)

As for the rest, we'll see, but I'll tell you what I do know, and that's that the people from the Peloponnese are quite similar to Sicilians and southern Italians, and the authors of the paper who came to that conclusion are also authors here, if you missed it. In fact, the lead author of that paper is a primary contact for this one.
 
Jovialis said:
I'm a little confused by what you mean, or if you are referring to me. Maybe I confused the article that the modern populations from those areas in Sicily, southern Italy and Albania have a genetic similarity to modern Greeks from the mainland or islands; with them being related to Mycenaean and Minoans. But it's not something I need to comes to grips with. :LOL:

But yes, the ancient populations that lived in those areas could be significantly different, from before the Greeks arrived.

And yea, I do think it's weird that people think populations from 5,000 years ago is essential in measuring their self-worth.
Click to expand...

No, sorry, not to you at all; it was a reaction to the data. Thanks again for uploading the graphic.

No, you don't seem to me to be one of the "complexed" members of the amateur population genetics community. Thank God for it, too; I don't know how many more of them I can take, and that's from all sides of the spectrum. :)

@Sile,
For all your diatribes about the Muslims entering Europe you're just like them. Every time I post a picture where the artist depicted a human being less than fully clothed, you down vote it. I guess you were fine with the Italian government officials' decision to put cloths over our great statues on the Campidoglio so as not to offend the visiting Iranians? Why don't you join the Taliban for goodness' sakes? There's nothing wrong or shameful about the naked human body so long as such depictions aren't meant to degrade people. Have you never taken an art history class? What is wrong with you?
 
Last edited:
Angela said:
No, sorry, not to you at all; it was a reaction to the data. Thanks again for uploading the graphic.

No, you don't seem to me to be one of the "complexed" members of the amateur population genetics community. Thank God for it, too; I don't know how many more of them I can take, and that's from all sides of the spectrum. :)
Click to expand...

Hi Angela, how you explain IE language of Myceneas...I was not able to understand it from the paper....


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Angela said:
No, sorry, not to you at all; it was a reaction to the data. Thanks again for uploading the graphic.
No, you don't seem to me to be one of the "complexed" members of the amateur population genetics community. Thank God for it, too; I don't know how many more of them I can take, and that's from all sides of the spectrum. :)
@Sile,
For all your diatribes about the Muslims entering Europe you're just like them. Every time I post a picture where the artist depicted a human being less than fully clothed, you down vote it. I guess you were fine with the Italian government officials' decision to put cloths over our great statues on the Campidoglio so as not to offend the visiting Iranians? Why don't you joint the Taliban for goodness' sakes. What's wrong with the naked human body. Have you never taken an art history class? What is wrong with you?
Click to expand...
what are you talking about........which post ? ....................

I am against every religious institute that promotes gender-racism
 
Angela said:
Then who does? The Mycenaeans are in the heart of ancient Greece and are the first people we can assert unequivocally spoke the Greek language.

To be sure, I'd like to get a look at the "Dorian" genomes, and most avidly of all, I'd like to see the genomes of the classical Greeks.
Click to expand...

IMO, Dorians are proto-epirotes
 
In the grid of PCAs posted by Jovialis, we have Minoans plotting with the Anatolian farmers in half of them, whereas they can be found just slightly south and east of Mycenaeans in the other half....could someone explain this inconsistency?
 
Angela

I stay to this

''This model makes geographicalsense, since a population movement from the vicinity of Armenia could have admixed with Anatolian Neolithic-related farmerson either side of the Aegean. However, Mycenaeans can also bemodelled as a mixture of Minoans and Bronze Age steppe populations(Table 1 and Supplementary Information section 2), suggesting that,alternatively, ‘eastern’ ancestry arrived in both Crete and mainlandGreece, followed by about 13–18% admixture with a ‘northern’ steppepopulation in mainland Greece only. Such a scenario is also plausible:first, it provides a genetic correlate for the distribution of shared toponymsin Crete, mainland Greece, and Anatolia discovered in ref. 21;second, it postulates a single migration from the east; third, it proposessome gene flow from geographically contiguous areas to the northwhere steppe ancestry was present since at least the mid-third millenniumbc (refs 6, 9). We validated inferences from qpAdm by treatingsource populations as ‘ghosts’ and re-estimating mixture proportions4,by examining the correspondence between qpAdm estimates and PCA4(Extended Data Fig. 5), and by comparing simulated individuals ofknown ancestry against the Mycenaeans (Extended Data Fig. 6)'''

Lazarides is proposing the plausible scenario that the steppe admixture came from the East and not from North,
the quantity is 13-18% ok how much is difference from about 10% I mention?

and If I accept that they came from minor Asia Caucasos (the 13% stepe (IE))
Then I have to accept this
Gray & Atkinson & Greenhill 2011
proto-Greek first Spoken in Minor Asia- Anatolia with Tocharian and Armenian :unsure:

which is clear the evolution of Anatolian Hypothesis, :unsure:


from their work
[FONT=&quot]The second theory, proposed by the archaeologist Renfrew [[/FONT]26[FONT=&quot]], holds that Indo-European languages spread, not with marauding horsemen, but with the expansion of agriculture from Anatolia between 8000 and 9500 years ago. Radiocarbon analysis of the earliest Neolithic sites across Europe provides a fairly detailed chronology of agricultural dispersal. This archaeological evidence indicates that agriculture spread from Anatolia, arriving in Greece at some time during the ninth millennium BP and reaching as far as the British Isles by 5500 BP [[/FONT]27[FONT=&quot]]. Renfrew maintains that the linguistic argument for the Kurgan theory is based only on limited evidence for a few enigmatic Proto-Indo-European word forms. He points out that parallel semantic shifts or wide-spread borrowing can produce similar word forms across different languages without requiring that an ancestral term was present in the proto-language. Renfrew also challenges the idea that Kurgan social structure and technology was sufficiently advanced to allow them to conquer whole continents in a time when even small cities did not exist. Far more credible, he argues, is that Proto-Indo-European spread with the spread of agriculture.


[/FONT]That work is Giving 3 branches
1) Hettit
2) Tocharian Greek and Armenian as one branch (Greco-Aryan)
3) and Albanian with Indoiranian on the other (Albanian is a split of Satem Indoranian language, possibly Scythian or other that enter Europe) (Greco-ARYAN)

if indeed Mycenean stepe admixture is that% and from that area, as the proposed scenario of Lazarides
then we night start to reconsider many,
and not only the Nordisists.
 
Angela said:
No, sorry, not to you at all; it was a reaction to the data. Thanks again for uploading the graphic.

No, you don't seem to me to be one of the "complexed" members of the amateur population genetics community. Thank God for it, too; I don't know how many more of them I can take, and that's from all sides of the spectrum. :)
Click to expand...

I strive to be as objective as possible, and always defer to the facts. :)

But I now see what you're saying about the Mycenaean in regards to the data.

The NG test said my first reference population was Greek, and my second was Tuscan. This is pure speculation, but would this be a possibility for where I would placed on this map?

uKw3x3N.png
 
Jovialis said:
I strive to be as objective as possible, and always defer to the facts. :)

But I now see what you're saying about the Mycenaean in regards to the data.

The NG test said my first reference population was Greek, and my second was Tuscan. This is pure speculation, but would this be a possibility for where I would placed on this map?

uKw3x3N.png
Click to expand...

Your ancestry? Please, post your GEDMatch results. I don't know what the NG test is.
 
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