E1b1b travelling from Maroc to Sicily, Bulgaria and destination Frisia

After searching for the roots of my Y-DNA roots I had (only) three (almost) perfect matches. I have the names of these persons but I will not use their names because I don’t know if they agree with my use of their material it in this thread. So I will use their nationality.

My “Frisian” Y-DNA
13 24 15 11 18-20 11 12 11 13 11 30

Moroccan
13 24 15 11 18 11 12 11 13 11 30 (11 markers)

Sicilian
13 24 15 11 18-19 11 12 11 13 11 30

NW Bulgarian
( 1 different number I don’t know yet which marker this is)


You can almost draw a map from Maroc to Sicily than to the Balkan/Northwestern Bulgarian and than finally Frisia.

Is this the old E1b1b1 route from Northern Africa, trough the Mediterranee via the Balkan into Europa until the land with edges the North Sea.

These are remarkable results for me, but what’s your opinion? What does this mean or say!?

Unfortunately a Genetic distance on 12 Markers is not a very reliable way to know if one is truly related to someone else. Example a genetic distance of say 0, 1, or 2 on a 25-markers , is corelated only with people of the same surname or a variant of it. considered On 25 markers that could be (only) a probability of a common (male) ancestor in the last 300 years. I am still trying to make sense of it all personally as information about genetic distnace is not all that straight forward. In your case this will not show a particular route.

One also should have a good historical background and keep up with latest (better with some scientifically backed) theories. DNA is a growing subject and data is growing and equipment getting more sophisticated, so it will be a long journey to know anything for certain in relation to ancient dna visa vi modern populations and their migrations.

Remember that E-V13 in north Africa is very low at percentages of 1%. It is also very well documented Greek colonisation in this region, so its easily a very valid reason towards this contribution. It is also very well known that southern European coasts were very often raided by North African Pirates during the long Byzantine era and whole villages used to be taken away in slavery therefore contributing to more E-V13 in the region. (The same happened the other way round) for this reason E-V13 could hardly be ever considered as an original starting point for any route from say Morocco (which according to the map is even void of E-V13. The obvious hot bed for E-V13 is the Balkan area with modern day countries like Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Greece, Albania with highest concentration in Kosovo. Again these regions can be split further with higher concentrations within particular districts in these same countries that have again migration stories of their own.

double post:weird:

These are wise remarks Maleth. I'am an historian And like many of them they like to make connections, make a (his-)story. But otherwise the most historians now there limits.... I don't think this can be a lineair story, altough the airplane tongue in cheek, title is suggestive. And of course I don't think this is close family. May be for 60 generations or so it isn't even close family.....
But otherwise and (almost) exact the same Y-DNA is this totally coincidence? Doesn't reveal a little glimp into history? In the end a same Y-DNA states that those three persons have a certain common ancestor, or as we say a kind of "stamvader" (=father of a clan)?
I think that for this little "subbranche" of E1b1b1 it gives four little highlights in the map you've shown Maleth. Nothing more nothing less.
And although not scientifically definitely proven, bearer of the Y-DNA E1b1b1 plays a more or less significant role in the spread of Neolithic agricultural revolution. That's the Neolithic big or small link between South-Eastern, Central and Northwestern Europe. The most recent theory for my case I've researched this evening is from 8 december 2014. This deals with the Funnel Beaker Cultur this is for southern Scandinavia, Northern Germany and Northern Netherlands (incl. Frisia) crucial in the agricultural revolution!

Helena Malmström, Anna Linderholm, Pontus Skoglund, Jan Storå, Per Sjödin, M. Thomas P. Gilbert, Gunilla Holmlund, Eske Willerslev, Mattias Jakobsson, Kerstin Lidén, Anders GötherströmDOI: 10.1098/rstb.2013.0373Published 8 December 2014.


"The European Neolithization process started around 12 000 years ago in the Near East. The introduction of agriculture spread north and west throughout Europe and a key question has been if this was brought about by migrating individuals, by an exchange of ideas or a by a mixture of these. The earliest farming evidence in Scandinavia is found within the Funnel Beaker Culture complex (Trichterbecherkultur, TRB) which represents the northernmost extension of Neolithic farmers in Europe. The TRB coexisted for almost a millennium with hunter–gatherers of the Pitted Ware Cultural complex (PWC). If migration was a substantial part of the Neolithization, even the northerly TRB community would display a closer genetic affinity to other farmer populations than to hunter–gatherer populations. We deep-sequenced the mitochondrial hypervariable region 1 from seven farmers (six TRB and one Battle Axe complex, BAC) and 13 hunter–gatherers (PWC) and authenticated the sequences using postmortem DNA damage patterns. A comparison with 124 previously published sequences from prehistoric Europe shows that the TRB individuals share a close affinity to Central European farmer populations, and that they are distinct from hunter–gatherer groups, including the geographically close and partially contemporary PWC that show a close affinity to the European Mesolithic hunter–gatherers."

On the FTDNA forum someone reacted as follows:

" They are descended from Near Eastern Hunter Gatherers who practiced that economy prior to 10,000 BC. The H-G in Anatolia were among the first to practice simple farming & build simple towns. By maybe 7000 BC, much of Anatolia was practicing farming & the population was expanding. They had many of the modern farm animals EXCEPT the horse. This group crossed into the Balkans prior to 6000 BC & established a civilization or cultural complex called Old Europe. This grew to include much of modern day Bulgaria, the former Yugoslavia & Romania. The civilization declined sharply after about 4000 BC & was gone by 3900 BC. In its place were newcomers who rode horses. A new cultural complex came to be that was composed of agricultural practices, including the horse. My understanding is that the men of Old Europe were likely an Anatolian mix of the E1b1b, G and J haplogroups. These can be found in the Balkans until this day. The newcomers on horseback most likely came from the steppe & were most likely R1b, all stemming from a population that we can now call Ancient North Eurasian.

Pioneers/ refugees from Old Europe may have been among those who spread the neolithic from Old Europe across much of the continent. Many of these were likely G2a. Later, during the early Bronze Age, R1b would follow. The Mesolithic population that preceded them may have been of the I haplogroup, or the G haplogroup. The 7,000 year old haplogroup from Spain belonged to the C haplogroup, which may indicate an early migration from India or Arabia during the Upper Paleolithic.

Timothy Peterman"

For me this is got the clue (until someone ha a sharper theory!)

The verdict is still not out Northener, and it will take a much longer time before one can sit back and tell the story in its true colours. For me its a kind of complicated puzzle to put together. Historians, geologists, genealogists, archaeologist, climate specialists all have a say in it. There also have to be some common ground of acceptance between the groups.Hypothesis and assumptions to keep it all interesting including some alien invasion to build the pyramids, if you get my drift :grin: (that are known to change from one new exciting discovery to another). However the positive thing is that all in all things are moving and we seem to know much more today then we did even up to 10 years ago.

Regarding E-V13 we know one has been around (in Europe) since at least the early Neolithic (which as you know is much earlier then the Bronze age, which often E-V13 is said to have spread the fastest) according to a skeleton in a burial mound with four G2a males. It also seems to be linked closely to the balkan haplotypes. However so far no such ancient findings have been found in the balkans proper but maybe again E-V13 is not exactly one of the best researched haplotype. The oldest in Balkans is Nea Nikomedeia in Northern Greece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Nikomedeia according to Dienekes http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html. There is much and much more waiting to be analised and scanned out there.

However in my eyes I find it extremely probably that groups of Neolithic E-V13 have traveled up the Danube (E-V13 is not that rare there in some areas as in Austrian and South Germany) mixing with other haplogroups and other cultures (such as Old Europe and maybe BB in a minority of course to arrive to their present destinations. This is all prior the Bronze age expansion in the Balkans and later Roman expansions with their large troops recruited from those areas.

Clever again! It's (E-V13) stays a plate with (nice Mediterranean) spaghetti! There is indeed still so much to explore. Whe are just in the beginning. Surprises (like the E-V13 found in Neolithic Spain!). But to reconstruct a complex thing as genetics and patterns of migration will always be a kind of attempt. And indeed: " This is all prior the Bronze age expansion in the Balkans and later Roman expansions with their large troops recruited from those areas"= E1b1b is a(lso) part of EEF (Early Europeanen Farmers) who reached the shores of the North Sea is for the time being my preliminary an tentative conclusion. Thanks for sparring Maleth. And I will stay tuned

Northener said:

It's (E-V13) stays a plate with (nice Mediterranean) spaghetti!

Click to expand...

.......and some nice Beshamel with Frisian Milk and some grated mature Gauda cheese :grin:

Maleth recently I filled my markers on World Haplogroup & Haplo-'I' Subclade Predictor with these results: E3b-V22 =>97% H =>2% subhaplo E3b-V22 =>95% I-P37.2 =>3%.

Northener, do not rely on World Haplogroup & Haplo-'I' Subclade Predictor. How many Markers did you put in? I tried putting in mine with 12 and it said

Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows:
E3b-V22 =>71% E3b =>9% E3b-M78 =>9% E3b-V13 =>9% !!! I am confirmed E-V13 (not predicted like some others) on Ftdna. Its best to make an upgrade if you can with the company who tested you initially.

I will try with the 67 Markers later and see what the calculator has to say, but a little busy now to do that but I will let you know

E-V13 already comes with low percentage in your region, BUT V22 is nearly non existent . Highest frequencies are outside Europe. If you indeed belong to V22 (which I doubt) that would be very interesting.

Hello.you are From Frissia?I am from Tunisia .my subclade under E-V13 is E-L241.i have in 67 Y a cousin from Frissia .the genetic distance with him in 67 Y is 5.

e-v22 is found in sicily and iberia in europe and even isolated cases north than this
but indeed it is mainly middle eastern in its distribution
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V22/

Syrian prehistory

The Neolithic revolution (10 000 BC) encompassed the entire region that stretches from the Nile Valley and the eastern Mediterranean, including Syria and Iraq, to the Iranian plateau and the Indus valley. It also included chains of flourishing peasant populations in the forested plains of northern Europe. In this vast region there was a great variety of cultures integrated in the "Fertile Crescent", historical region that
corresponded with part of the territories of the Mediterranean Levant, Mesopotamia and Persia.

Land of passage, the country has been dominated by Egyptians, Canaanites, Hittites, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Seleucid Empire, Romans, Arabs, Mongols, Ottomans and French, until its independence in 1946.

The Epipaleolithic (ca. 20,000-9,500 cal. BC) is characterized by significant cultural variability and widespread diffusion of microlithic technologies. From the appearance of Kebarian culture (18,000 BC to 12,500 BC) a set of microlithic tools were associated with the appearance of the bow and arrow in the area. The Kebarians show affinities with the early Helwan phase in Egypt's Fayúm, and may be associated with a movement of people throughout the Sinai, associated with climate warming after the Late Malay of 20,000 BC. Cultures affiliated with the Kebarians extend as far as southern Turkey. The last part of the period (ca. 12,500-9,500 cal. BC) is the time of the flourishing of the Natufian culture and the development of sedentism among the hunter-gatherers.


Natufiense
This culture existed from around 13,000 to 9,800 BC in the Levant. A large amount of archaeological excavations of this culture creates a relatively well-defined understanding of these people. One of the most important aspects of this culture was the large size of the community and the sedentary lifestyles.5 Although the Natuvians delayed slightly, they experienced a slight reversal in this trend as their shrunken community measure (possibly as a consequence of the cold climatic period of the recent Dryas) and became more nomadic. It is believed that this culture continued through time and was the basis for the Neolithic revolution

carlos
nice map
so e-z1919 is the common ancestor of both e-v22 and e-L618 cool
i wouldn't be surprised
if e-v22 originated in syria or somwhere else in the south levant

Northener said:

After searching for the roots of my Y-DNA roots I had (only) three (almost) perfect matches. I have the names of these persons but I will not use their names because I don’t know if they agree with my use of their material it in this thread. So I will use their nationality.

My “Frisian” Y-DNA
13 24 15 11 18-20 11 12 11 13 11 30

Moroccan
13 24 15 11 18 11 12 11 13 11 30 (11 markers)

Sicilian
13 24 15 11 18-19 11 12 11 13 11 30

NW Bulgarian
( 1 different number I don’t know yet which marker this is)


You can almost draw a map from Maroc to Sicily than to the Balkan/Northwestern Bulgarian and than finally Frisia.

Is this the old E1b1b1 route from Northern Africa, trough the Mediterranee via the Balkan into Europa until the land with edges the North Sea.

These are remarkable results for me, but what’s your opinion? What does this mean or say!?

Click to expand...

I think E v22 in Europe is a Jewish marker!

I think you should mind your own business... If it itches,I can scratch you...easily.

Tutkun Arnaut said:

I think E v22 in Europe is a Jewish marker!

Click to expand...

no it is e-m34 my clade
and even this clade have some non- jewish clusters/ branches
e-v22 is probably Phoenician or roman auxiliry from syria that would explain some cases of e-v22 in britain

Tutkun Arnaut said:

I think E v22 in Europe is a Jewish marker!

Click to expand...

That is already more seen than the comic. Obsolete. Finally it will be known.

to be more specific I am a dervied clade of E-m34 I belong to E-m84 acording to living dna test
E-S11956 branch