R1b-U152 map

Taranis

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We are al aware of the R1b-U152 map found in the Myres et al paper. I found this larger, more detailed map of U152 below:

u152_frequency_map_2010_13_small.png


I don't know how accurate it actually is, but there's a few thoughts that crossed my mind:

If we assume that the U152 marker originated in Urnfield (or possibly Unetice) times, and subsquently spread via the Hallstatt and La-Tene culture, it would explain the distribution pattern. In particular if we additionally take into account the Celtic, Germanic and Slavic migrations, we should get a similar pattern as seen on the map.

Your thoughts?
 
I think that contrary to Central Europe, the peopling of Western Europe is mainly Pre-Celtic
 
U152_English_Channel_001.png

gaul3prx.gif



There seems to have a big correlation between the Belgae and U152. Don't forget that they had colonies in Southern England
 
not convinced it is key marker of Urnfield...

I see it as originally from Lydia in Asia minor, and spread to Europe by multiple sources:

1) Etruscans and related Raetians (Raetians origin from Etruscans and Etruscans from Lydia in Asia minor)
2) Germanic Burgundians
3) Belgic peoples
4) Franks (they might origin from Phrygians)
5) Dacians (suggested link to Lycia - south Asia minor)
6) Magyars? (distantly related to Etruscans?)


inside Europe also somewhat spread by Celts, but is not original marker of Celtic people... because in Asia minor it is found only in south and not in areas where Galatians lived....

Venetic people of Adriatic (Liburnians are also Venetic) had some due to interaction with Etruscans...
Hellenic people (including Illyrians) had some from Asia minor...

look at Urnfield core marked in red... not too good match... though not too bad either...

u152_frequency_map_2010_13_small.png

250px-Cultures%2C_1200_BC.PNG
Iron_Age_Italy.png


Burgundians
1Ad, 100AD
entity_706.jpg


300AD
entity_706.jpg


500AD
entity_706.jpg


600 AD
entity_706.jpg


900 AD
entity_2515.jpg
 
That is strange. Fortunately, I downloaded the "original" version (at least, the one I used when making this thread), which I hereby put into an attachment.

I'd love to comment a tad more on your replies, but I'll have to do that later. Sorry. :sad-2:
 

Attachments

  • u152_frequency_map_2010_13_small.png
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The hotspots out outside of Britain appear to be the Alps, Italy and southern France. This had led several to conjecture an Urnfield, Halstatt and La Tene Celtic connection. That may well be the case. However, there may also be an older connection too...
 
That is strange. Fortunately, I downloaded the "original" version (at least, the one I used when making this thread), which I hereby put into an attachment.

I'd love to comment a tad more on your replies, but I'll have to do that later. Sorry. :sad-2:

Maciano's map in late 2010 in Eupedia is different from yours , I think Maciano has the latest one as he qouted myers theory
 
What does mean R1b-U152? Where is it so numerous in Etruria? Why in Germany
till into the Netherlands? The Etrurians and Dutch did not have common ancestors?
 
Guys, if you post the U152 map, that is fine with me, but you have to read what the associated article says and why it was changed. The new updated version is the correct one.
 
The hotspots out outside of Britain appear to be the Alps, Italy and southern France. This had led several to conjecture an Urnfield, Halstatt and La Tene Celtic connection. That may well be the case. However, there may also be an older connection too...

Well, the key issue is that it matches the cummulative effect of Urnfield, Hallstatt and La-Tene. Hallstatt was an outgrowth/continuation of the Urnfield Culture, and La-Tene later began at the western periphery of the Hallstatt Culture. It should be noted that the peak in Poland is also a reasonable match with the Lusatian Culture, which also was a continuation of Urnfield.

In regard for a connection with Celtic-speaking peoples, while it's very likely that Hallstatt and La-Tene existed inside a mostly Celtic-speaking context, the same cannot be said about Urnfield, especially because considerable time passed in the meantime and because a large chunk of the Urnfield areas are later known to be inhabited by non-Celtic-speaking peoples (in particular the Etruscans in Italy, Germanic people in northern Germany, and the Iberians in Catalonia). Consider that a common archaeological culture doesn't automatically imply linguistic homogenity.

In regard for older connections, given the approximate age of R1b-U152, this seems very unlikely given the apparently low overall relative age of Western European R1b.

What does mean R1b-U152? Where is it so numerous in Etruria? Why in Germany
till into the Netherlands? The Etrurians and Dutch did not have common ancestors?

R1b-U152 is one of the subclades of R1b-P312 (which also includes R1b-L21, which is common to the British Isles), which is in turn part of the subclade R1b-P310 (together with R1b-U106), which makes up the bulk of Western European R1b.
 
What does mean R1b-U152? Where is it so numerous in Etruria? Why in Germany
till into the Netherlands? The Etrurians and Dutch did not have common ancestors?

I think that both settled Europe from Asia minor... just in different times...

Hatti (pre-Hittite poppulation of Asia minor) were in my opinion reach in R1b and also with I2*... R1b and I2* that departed to Europe when Hittite came (and before) probably joined I1 and other R1b branches and gave bulk of Germanic people (with I2* giving I2b)... a clue for this is that variance of R1b seems to be largest in Asia minor, and that primary god of Hatti is Taru, which is essentilly same name as Germanic Thor... Hatti might be same tribal name as Goti/Goths and Getae...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

later Hittite called same key God Tarhun which probably gave Slavic Perun and Baltic Perkunas...

As for Etruscans, they came much later (in time of 18 years hunger caused by eruption of Hekla 3 volcano
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hekla_volcano in 1159 BC) from Lydia in Asia minor and brought with themselves same R1b and also some R1a, and G haplogroup...

Ligurians and perhaps even Goths are alternative to Etruscans for source of this branch in north Italy...unfortunately, we do not know much about origin of Ligurians...
 
I think that both settled Europe from Asia minor... just in different times...

Hatti (pre-Hittite poppulation of Asia minor) were in my opinion reach in R1b and also with I2*... R1b and I2* that departed to Europe when Hittite came (and before) probably joined I1 and other R1b branches and gave bulk of Germanic people (with I2* giving I2b)... a clue for this is that variance of R1b seems to be largest in Asia minor, and that primary god of Hatti is Taru, which is essentilly same name as Germanic Thor... Hatti might be same tribal name as Goti/Goths and Getae...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

later Hittite called same key God Tarhun which probably gave Slavic Perun and Baltic Perkunas...

As for Etruscans, they came much later (in time of 18 years hunger caused by eruption of Hekla 3 volcano
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hekla_volcano in 1159 BC) from Lydia in Asia minor and brought with themselves same R1b and also some R1a, and G haplogroup...

Ligurians and perhaps even Goths are alternative to Etruscans for source of this branch in north Italy...unfortunately, we do not know much about origin of Ligurians...

I'm not sure if that holds, linguistically speaking. First off, the Hattians were a non-IE people. Also, Hittite was the most aberrant branch of the Indo-European language family, and probably the first to diverge. I'm not sure if Proto-Indo-European *perkwunas would yield "Tarhun". Also, Hittite is attested from the 17th century BC onward, and the earliest attestation of the Greek language begins only a few centuries later (15th century BC), meaning the major split-up of IE must have occured significantly earlier.

In addition to Baltic "Perkunas" and Slavic "Perun", cognates are attested in other IE languages:

- Latin "Quercus" (oak)

- the "Hercynian" forest (Celtic loses initial P, probably via the intermediate stage of H).

(I don't know much about the Hittite language, if PIE initial "P" yields "T" in Hittite, then yes, "Tarhun" might be a cognate with "Perkwunas")

Regarding the Etruscans, I agree that they arrived significantly later from Anatolia (there's genetic evidence that Etruscan cattle was introduced from Anatolia). Etruscan, while non-IE, adopted a lot of Anatolian phonology.

Regarding the Ligurians, in my opinion they spoke a Indo-European language, akin to Celtic and Italic but part of neither.
 
I'm not sure if that holds, linguistically speaking. First off, the Hattians were a non-IE people. Also, Hittite was the most aberrant branch of the Indo-European language family, and probably the first to diverge. I'm not sure if Proto-Indo-European *perkwunas would yield "Tarhun". Also, Hittite is attested from the 17th century BC onward, and the earliest attestation of the Greek language begins only a few centuries later (15th century BC), meaning the major split-up of IE must have occured significantly earlier.

ok, but what if PIE comes from language of part of IJ people that gave haplogroups I and J2...
Greeks would have it via J2 haplogroup and others via haplogroup I...
meaning that I1 was already in Europe and speaking PIE at that time, while R1b dominant Hatti were non-IE speakers... Hatti depart to Europe and there joins I1 and accepts PIE language but push deity name...

Hittite, upon arrival to Asia minor partly accept language of local haplogroup I2* and become branch of IE themselves...

he Hittites were a Bronze Age people of Anatolia. They established a kingdom centered at Hattusa in north-central Anatolia ca. the 18th century BC. The Hittite empire reached its height ca. the 14th century BC, encompassing a large part of Anatolia, north-western Syria about as far south as the mouth of the Litani River (in present-day Lebanon), and eastward into upper Mesopotamia. The Hittite military made successful use of chariots,[1] By the mid 14th century BC (under king Suppiluliuma I) carving out an empire that included most of Asia Minor as well as parts of the northern Levant and Upper Mesopotamia. After ca. 1180 BC, the empire disintegrated into several independent "Neo-Hittite" city-states, some surviving until the 8th century BC.
Their Hittite language was a member of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European language family.[2] Natively, they referred to their land as Hatti, and to their language as Nesili (the language of Nesa). The conventional name "Hittites" is due to their initial identification with the Biblical Hittites in 19th century archaeology. Despite the use of "Hatti", the Hittites should be distinguished from the Hattians, an earlier people who inhabited the same region until the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC, and spoke a non-Indo-European language called Hattic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

Slavic "naš" = ours, also "naši" is used as abbreviation of "our people" that is as a recognition of belonging to same group... speaking "naški" is about speaking "our" language..

In addition to Baltic "Perkunas" and Slavic "Perun", cognates are attested in other IE languages:

- Latin "Quercus" (oak)

- the "Hercynian" forest (Celtic loses initial P, probably via the intermediate stage of H).

this is very interesting because Slavic religion is as Celtic related to oak tree...

(I don't know much about the Hittite language, if PIE initial "P" yields "T" in Hittite, then yes, "Tarhun" might be a cognate with "Perkwunas")
I think that is possible because I2a people lived both north and south of Black sea...

Regarding the Etruscans, I agree that they arrived significantly later from Anatolia (there's genetic evidence that Etruscan cattle was introduced from Anatolia). Etruscan, while non-IE, adopted a lot of Anatolian phonology.

yes, I have seen that one...but also Herodotous wrote that Lydians told him how Lydia people split in two parts (a part that left Lydia gave Etruscans) during 18 years long hunger, and that one is easy to trace to Hekla 3 eruption....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

Regarding the Ligurians, in my opinion they spoke a Indo-European language, akin to Celtic and Italic but part of neither.

ok, that makes them good candidate for source of this haplogroup in north Italy... because they are related to Celtic people north of them which is the direction of the spread....
 
ok, but what if PIE comes from language of part of IJ people that gave haplogroups I and J2...
Greeks would have it via J2 haplogroup and others via haplogroup I...
meaning that I1 was already in Europe and speaking PIE at that time, while R1b dominant Hatti were non-IE speakers... Hatti depart to Europe and there joins I1 and accepts PIE language but push deity name...

You are arguing A LOT there which is very problematic to claim, let alone to back up. Why should PIE come from people with IJ? (I'd have said R1b-M269 and R1a1a - the two are the primary candidates, in my opinion). How do you know the Hatti were predominantly I1? And the rest... Occam's razor does not agree with you.

Hittite, upon arrival to Asia minor partly accept language of local haplogroup I2* and become branch of IE themselves...

Genetics do not work that way...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

Slavic "naš" = ours, also "naši" is used as abbreviation of "our people" that is as a recognition of belonging to same group... speaking "naški" is about speaking "our" language..

I don't know if you can compare things that way. You cannot randomly compare words from two languages without caring about their relationship (thousands of years and kilometers apart). In particular, you're ignoring sound laws there.

this is very interesting because Slavic religion is as Celtic related to oak tree...

The Celts did not make the connection between the oak and a thunder deity, however, though they did have a thunder god (the namesake of my screen name, Taranis), as did the Germanic peoples (Thor/Donar) - and both names derive from the word "to thunder".

I think that is possible because I2a people lived both north and south of Black sea...

That makes no sense. You think a sound law is possible because you think that people bearing a certain Y-chromosomal Haplogroup lived on both sides of the black sea?! :petrified: Look, what you're saying there makes absolutely no sense, PERIOD.

yes, I have seen that one...but also Herodotous wrote that Lydians told him how Lydia people split in two parts (a part that left Lydia gave Etruscans) during 18 years long hunger, and that one is easy to trace to Hekla 3 eruption....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

I wasn't aware of that line in Herodotus, and I wouldn't necessarily say it was the Hekla-3 eruption, but I agree that sounds reasonably plausible to claim.

ok, that makes them good candidate for source of this haplogroup in north Italy... because they are related to Celtic people north of them which is the direction of the spread....

Well, I think that there's a cummulative effect to be considered in northern Italy: after the Ligurians, the Gauls arrived in northern Italy, and even later the Germanic Langobardi/Lombards (who probably lived along the Elbe before their migration). The U-152 peak in Italy might come (in part) from all three sources. Consider that this map only shows the "end product" today, and some 3500+ years of history occured in the meantime to produce the pattern we see today.
 
You are arguing A LOT there which is very problematic to claim, let alone to back up. Why should PIE come from people with IJ? (I'd have said R1b-M269 and R1a1a - the two are the primary candidates, in my opinion). How do you know the Hatti were predominantly I1? And the rest... Occam's razor does not agree with you.
easy... I never said Hatti were I1... I said they were R1b and I2*/I2b ...I1 comes from I* that departed from Asia minor to Europe much earlier....

I do not see why would R1b+R1a be more likely to originally spread PIE than I+J2....

there are domiant R1b non-IE and dominant R1a non IE people...but there are no dominant haplogroup I non-IE people... isn't that a good clue for PIE language being originally language of haplogroup I (and J2)?

Besides PIE was in India spread by Aryans and from what I see they were J2 people ...

at some point of time also R1a and R1b became IE speaking and further spread IE languages...but originally I think it developed in part of people that belonged to IJ haplogroups somewhere in Persia in my opinion...

Genetics do not work that way...
we are here guessing... through discussion we should come up with consistent story...


I don't know if you can compare things that way. You cannot randomly compare words from two languages without caring about their relationship (thousands of years and kilometers apart). In particular, you're ignoring sound laws there.
I do not claim that Hittites = proto-Slavic people, as obviously those are quite different vocabularies...
what I claim is that there is certain genetic /linguistic/cultural link....


The Celts did not make the connection between the oak and a thunder deity, however, though they did have a thunder god (the namesake of my screen name, Taranis), as did the Germanic peoples (Thor/Donar) - and both names derive from the word "to thunder".
Celts had in their religion central notion of world tree same as Slavs, and I think other PIE people, and I think that the tree was also for Celts oak tree..

btw. Thor is also related to oak tree

The Donar Oak (also Thor's Oak) was a legendary oak tree sacred to the Germanic tribe of the Chatti, ancestors of the Hessians, and an important sacred site of the pagan Germanic peoples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor's_Oak

now tell me that Germanic tribe of Chatti that celebrates Thor is not the same tribal name as Hati who celebrate Taru and who moved from Asia minor to Europe.... tell me I am mad and that is just coincidence....


That makes no sense. You think a sound law is possible because you think that people bearing a certain Y-chromosomal Haplogroup lived on both sides of the black sea?! :petrified: Look, what you're saying there makes absolutely no sense, PERIOD.
it makes sense...those are small distances.....Black sea is much smaller than e.g. Mediteranean see....people who have same genetic origin and live around Black sea obviously are likely to share some of the vocabulary and culture as well....

I wasn't aware of that line in Herodotus, and I wouldn't necessarily say it was the Hekla-3 eruption, but I agree that sounds reasonably plausible to claim.
there was no other reason for exactly 18 years long hunger....and time window roughly matches estimates that genetic provided based on cattle genetics...


Well, I think that there's a cummulative effect to be considered in northern Italy: after the Ligurians, the Gauls arrived in northern Italy, and even later the Germanic Langobardi/Lombards (who probably lived along the Elbe before their migration). The U-152 peak in Italy might come (in part) from all three sources. Consider that this map only shows the "end product" today, and some 3500+ years of history occured in the meantime to produce the pattern we see today.
true...that makes it hard to figure out without going deeper into subbranches....
 
What does mean R1b-U152? Where is it so numerous in Etruria? Why in Germany
till into the Netherlands? The Etrurians and Dutch did not have common ancestors?

Here is explanation.... most of Europe was settled from Asia minor just in different times... Dutch people origin largely from Batavians, and Batavians origin from Germanic Chatti who are in fact Hatti people who came to Europe from Asia minor area around 2000BC

The Chatti (also Chatthi or Catti) were an ancient Germanic tribe whose homeland was near the upper Weser.[1] They settled in central and northern Hesse and southern Lower Saxony, along the upper reaches of the Weser River and in the valleys and mountains of the Eder, Fulda and Weser River regions, a district approximately corresponding to Hesse-Kassel, though probably somewhat more extensive. According to Tacitus,[2] among them were the Batavians, until an internal quarrel drove them out, to take up new lands at the mouth of the Rhine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatti

The Donar Oak (also Thor's Oak) was a legendary oak tree sacred to the Germanic tribe of the Chatti, ancestors of the Hessians, and an important sacred site of the pagan Germanic peoples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor's_Oak

Teshub (also written Teshup or Tešup; cuneiform dIM) was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

Their Hittite language was a member of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European language family.[2] Natively, they referred to their land as Hatti, and to their language as Nesili (the language of Nesa). The conventional name "Hittites" is due to their initial identification with the Biblical Hittites in 19th century archaeology. Despite the use of "Hatti", the Hittites should be distinguished from the Hattians, an earlier people who inhabited the same region until the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC, and spoke a non-Indo-European language called Hattic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

Etruscans came to Europe much later during 18 years long hunger caused by volcanic winter due to Hecla 3 volcano eruption in year 1159 BC

1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

Franks also origin from Asia minor... they were known there as Phrygians,,,, this I based on Fruzi being old Serbian name for Franks,and on legend of origin of Franks themselves that states their moving to Europe happened after Trojan war...

Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks developed an origin story to connect themselves with peoples of antiquity. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Maeotis, now Sea of Azov, and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late fourth century at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Franks, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome.
[edit]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

The mountain's name derives from the old Serbian name for the Frankish people: Fruzi (sing. Frug; adj. Fruški). The literal translation of "Fruška Gora" would be "the Frankish Mountain". It received this name due to its function as a natural border during Frankish campaigns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruska_gora
 
easy... I never said Hatti were I1... I said they were R1b and I2*/I2b ...I1 comes from I* that departed from Asia minor to Europe much earlier....

I do not see why would R1b+R1a be more likely to originally spread PIE than I+J2....

J2 has it's highest concentrations in the Near East, in particular the Fertile Crescent and Iraq. In my opinion, the Sumerians for instance were predominantly J2.

there are domiant R1b non-IE and dominant R1a non IE people...but there are no dominant haplogroup I non-IE people... isn't that a good clue for PIE language being originally language of haplogroup I (and J2)?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. J2 is widespread in the near East, as you may know.

Besides PIE was in India spread by Aryans and from what I see they were J2 people ...

The Indo-Aryans in India were probably predominantly R1a1a. It's very common in India today (interestingly, in particular amongst certain Brahmin castes), and it has been found in graves of the Andronovo Culture in Central Asia - also R1a has been found in graves of the Andronovo Culture. Descendants of them moved southwards to found the Vedic civilization of the Indus Valley.

R1a1a has also been found in graves of the Corded Ware Culture in Europe and in graves of the Tocharians.

R1a1a can account for four major branches of the Indo-European languages (Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranic and Tocharian), is that a coincidence? I don't think so.

at some point of time also R1a and R1b became IE speaking and further spread IE languages...but originally I think it developed in part of people that belonged to IJ haplogroups somewhere in Persia in my opinion...

There is absolutely no reason to assume that. The people of Persia probably were non-IE-speaking originally. In particular, the oldest attested language in that region is Elamite, a non-IE language.

we are here guessing... through discussion we should come up with consistent story...

Your "story" isn't very consistent at all.

I do not claim that Hittites = proto-Slavic people, as obviously those are quite different vocabularies...
what I claim is that there is certain genetic /linguistic/cultural link....

Yeah, but your claims just go too far and are too far-fetched to be even remotely plausible, or stand up to closer scrutiny.

Celts had in their religion central notion of world tree same as Slavs, and I think other PIE people, and I think that the tree was also for Celts oak tree..

btw. Thor is also related to oak tree


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor's_Oak

now tell me that Germanic tribe of Chatti that celebrates Thor is not the same tribal name as Hati who celebrate Taru and moved from Asia minor to Europe....

Because you're ignoring the basics of linguistics, again, not to mention time, lot's of it. The Chatti, a Germanic people, are attested from 1st century AD, while the Hatti are in Anatolia, around 2000 years earlier. A connection between those two is extremely unlikely. It's almost like saying "America" and "Armorica" are related, just because they sound similar.

it makes sense...those are small distances.....Black sea is much smaller than e.g. Mediteranean see....people who have same genetic origin and live around Black sea obviously are likely to share some of the vocabulary and culture as well....

Back in those days, these weren't "small distances".

there was no other reason for 18 years long hunger....and time window roughly matches estimates that genetic provided based on cattle genetics...

That's a point. I'm a tad sceptical how the Hekla event could have provided such a long-lasting famine. Herodotus may be exaggerating (which would be nothing new). I agree the time window fits though.
 
J2 has it's highest concentrations in the Near East, in particular the Fertile Crescent and Iraq. In my opinion, the Sumerians for instance were predominantly J2.....I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. J2 is widespread in the near East, as you may know....The Indo-Aryans in India were probably predominantly R1a1a. It's very common in India today (interestingly, in particular amongst certain Brahmin castes), and it has been found in graves of the Andronovo Culture in Central Asia - also R1a has been found in graves of the Andronovo Culture. Descendants of them moved southwards to found the Vedic civilization of the Indus Valley.

you see in caste society castes do not mix... they can mix with invaders who stay long time there....Brahmins of India are believed to origin from Aryans
68% R1a1, 21% J2, 16% H1, 3.6% G2a....R1a is very present in various castes, while J2 and G2a are present only in Brahmins....

so, R1a probably came from later Indo-Scythians... and because they were ruling the area for quite a while itR1a did largely overtake brahmin's caste YDNA as well...but still 21% of brahmin caste stayed J2. I have explained that in
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26093-Indo-Aryans

R1a1a has also been found in graves of the Corded Ware Culture in Europe and in graves of the Tocharians.
yes, but that is about steppe people like Scythians...
in same steppe there were Turkic people as well and from what I see they were as well R1a...

R1a1a can account for four major branches of the Indo-European languages (Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranic and Tocharian), is that a coincidence? I don't think so.
it is not coincidence, but it can also say that part of R1a people have accepted IE language early in their history... so it was probably language of Scythians and Indo-Scythians... however, that doesnot necesserily implies R1a was source of the PIE...
there is problem with R1a that it cannot explain PIE in Europe without including R1b...But R1b in Asia and Africa is largely not IE...


There is absolutely no reason to assume that. The people of Persia probably were non-IE-speaking originally. In particular, the oldest attested language in that region is Elamite, a non-IE language.
my guess comes from me estimating that haplogroup I origin is in Persia

Your "story" isn't very consistent at all.
it is extremely consistent for forum story... I cannot make a PhD thesis about history and genetics on a forum....


Yeah, but your claims just go too far and are too far-fetched to be even remotely plausible, or stand up to closer scrutiny....
Because you're ignoring the basics of linguistics, again, not to mention time, lot's of it. The Chatti, a Germanic people, are attested from 1st century AD, while the Hatti are in Anatolia, around 2000 years earlier. A connection between those two is extremely unlikely. It's almost like saying "America" and "Armorica" are related, just because they sound similar.
if Armorica and America sounded more alike with clear transition from one to another, if the two areas had same principal deities, if there was atested movement from Armorica to America, and if there was no other explanation, yes I would make that proposal.... so, it is not just "it sounds similar" argument as you claim..it is much more...

Back in those days, these weren't "small distances".
no offence, but boats were used and horses as well....
obviously Etruscans somewhat later sailed to several times larger distance from Lydia in Asia minor to Umbria in Italy... obviously Indo-Scytians went from north of Caucasus to India... so why would migrations around Black sea be large distance.... same genetics north and south of Black sea, relatively close distances..obviously there must be some relation in culture and perhaps language...

That's a point. I'm a tad sceptical how the Hekla event could have provided such a long-lasting famine. Herodotus may be exaggerating (which would be nothing new). I agree the time window fits though
well, let's hope that Yellowstone will not show us how volcanic winter looks like and how much it can last....
 

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