Lombard DNA in Italy

I just wanted to point out that I'm full Italian, born and living in Italy, my family from both sides has always been here. My father's line is from a village called Moscufo, the one I live in. Before doing the DNA test I read a book on the history of this village and found out that it was founded by the Lombards during the Lombard Kingdom of Italy and was originally called Meuskulf. As far as anyone knows in my family, we've always been here, especially my father's line who apparently never moved out of Moscufo. On the test, my Y-DNA turned out to be R-U106, very uncommon in Italy (4% of the population) thus proving that the Lombards carried this haplogroup.
A genealogical research with documents could be useful to know more about your family.
 
I just wanted to point out that I'm full Italian, born and living in Italy, my family from both sides has always been here. My father's line is from a village called Moscufo, the one I live in. Before doing the DNA test I read a book on the history of this village and found out that it was founded by the Lombards during the Lombard Kingdom of Italy and was originally called Meuskulf. As far as anyone knows in my family, we've always been here, especially my father's line who apparently never moved out of Moscufo. On the test, my Y-DNA turned out to be R-U106, very uncommon in Italy (4% of the population) thus proving that the Lombards carried this haplogroup.

4% of the population isn't something that can be defined as uncommon.
 
A genealogical research with documents could be useful to know more about your family.
Unfortunately it's rather hard. On my father's side, they were all peasants. I want to look for censuses and records somewhere, but that wouldn't give me any info on my Lombard origin.

4% of the population isn't something that can be defined as uncommon.
Well, I didn't say it's rare, but I don't think it's common either. It's probably only surviving in former Lombard duchies and places settled by the Normans, who also carried this haplogroup for a small part.

^ Well German themselves are only 19% U106.
If 4% isn't uncommon, 19% must be really common, right? Also, it's not properly from Germany, but more from Frisia. U106 has its peek in the Netherlands, with 44% of the people carrying it. I think this also proves that they came from Scandinavia as Diaconus says, and that for a short period of time they followed the Saxons in their migration towards the west, but then turned South-East all the way to Pannonia and then Italy.
 
Unfortunately it's rather hard. On my father's side, they were all peasants. I want to look for censuses and records somewhere, but that wouldn't give me any info on my Lombard origin.


Well, I didn't say it's rare, but I don't think it's common either. It's probably only surviving in former Lombard duchies and places settled by the Normans, who also carried this haplogroup for a small part.


If 4% isn't uncommon, 19% must be really common, right? Also, it's not properly from Germany, but more from Frisia. U106 has its peek in the Netherlands, with 44% of the people carrying it. I think this also proves that they came from Scandinavia as Diaconus says, and that for a short period of time they followed the Saxons in their migration towards the west, but then turned South-East all the way to Pannonia and then Italy.


What census records? It's all parish records once you get beyond very recent times as Italian history goes. Social status is irrelevant as far as these records are concerned, since everyone was recorded at least back to the time of the Council of Trent. If the records still exist, which they often do because even in the case of the havoc caused by wars the records were deposited in multiple places, you can trace most of your family lines back to that period without terrible difficulty, although you may have to go to lots of parishes, and pore through lots of musty old books and spend a lot of time doing it. How else did Cavalli Sforza get family trees going back to the mid-1500s for very man, woman and child living in the Parma Valley when he did his monumental study on genetics?

There are some families which claim to be able to trace descent on a few lines back further to perhaps 1100 or so. Indeed, I have a few of those myself, but the records are spotty, usually having to do with a few notarial records, and given the statistical data for NPEs I think it's all highly questionable that any names someone finds are indeed actual ancestors. If there are multiple ydna lines for royal families, why would anyone put any faith in some of these online trees? The claims of some noble Italian families of being able to trace their descent back to Roman senators is just silly, in my opinion. As for the Lombards they were illiterate so no records can possibly exist for individual family lines to these people.
 
Unfortunately it's rather hard. On my father's side, they were all peasants. I want to look for censuses and records somewhere, but that wouldn't give me any info on my Lombard origin.


Well, I didn't say it's rare, but I don't think it's common either. It's probably only surviving in former Lombard duchies and places settled by the Normans, who also carried this haplogroup for a small part.


If 4% isn't uncommon, 19% must be really common, right? Also, it's not properly from Germany, but more from Frisia. U106 has its peek in the Netherlands, with 44% of the people carrying it. I think this also proves that they came from Scandinavia as Diaconus says, and that for a short period of time they followed the Saxons in their migration towards the west, but then turned South-East all the way to Pannonia and then Italy.

A summary of registry rules in Italy

- All registry records prior to 1804 where done initially in the parish of the town

- from 1805 to today all marriages must be done in the civil registry before a church wedding ............which is why you get 2 different dates for marriages.
- Unless a civil marriage is reformed then that marriage does not exist for the Italian government.
- All women will retain their maiden names and not get the husband surnames..........this was reinforced in the 1970's with even stricter rules.

so, ask you local civil registry office and they will supply you all records until about 1805 ..........then ask the civil registry which parish holds the records for your family before this and they will advise you........................I recently got all my records in this method 4 months ago ...........and they where quick, inside of a week, scanned to me and later officially mailed in the post.
 
What census records? It's all parish records once you get beyond very recent times as Italian history goes.
Indeed, I was taking about the 18th century or something, I don't expect to get records from the Council of Trent times either, since they're really really old. But even if I did, it would be impossible to link these findings to a Lombard ancestry, since as you said they were illiterate.

so, ask you local civil registry office and they will supply you all records until about 1805 ..........then ask the civil registry which parish holds the records for your family before this and they will advise you........................I recently got all my records in this method 4 months ago ...........and they where quick, inside of a week, scanned to me and later officially mailed in the post.
So you think I should go to my village's town hall to look for my family's 1805-today records?
 
So you think I should go to my village's town hall to look for my family's 1805-today records?

go to the comune and they should supply you with your family records , for free..............thats what I did.

while you are there they can guide you to which parish is most likely your family have the pre 1805 records...............but wait until you get your civil records first as your family maybe was not present where you are now since 1805, maybe they arrived from elsewhere
 
go to the comune and they should supply you with your family records , for free..............thats what I did.

while you are there they can guide you to which parish is most likely your family have the pre 1805 records...............but wait until you get your civil records first as your family maybe was not present where you are now since 1805, maybe they arrived from elsewhere
Awesome, thank you. I will do that tomorrow. But yeah, as I said, I'm pretty confident my father's family have always been here. We'll see.
 
What census records? It's all parish records once you get beyond very recent times as Italian history goes. Social status is irrelevant as far as these records are concerned, since everyone was recorded at least back to the time of the Council of Trent. If the records still exist, which they often do because even in the case of the havoc caused by wars the records were deposited in multiple places, you can trace most of your family lines back to that period without terrible difficulty, although you may have to go to lots of parishes, and pore through lots of musty old books and spend a lot of time doing it. How else did Cavalli Sforza get family trees going back to the mid-1500s for very man, woman and child living in the Parma Valley when he did his monumental study on genetics? There are some families which claim to be able to trace descent on a few lines back further to perhaps 1100 or so. Indeed, I have a few of those myself, but the records are spotty, usually having to do with a few notarial records, and given the statistical data for NPEs I think it's all highly questionable that any names someone finds are indeed actual ancestors. If there are multiple ydna lines for royal families, why would anyone put any faith in some of these online trees? The claims of some noble Italian families of being able to trace their descent back to Roman senators is just silly, in my opinion. As for the Lombards they were illiterate so no records can possibly exist for individual family lines to these people.
I'm a genealogist and I can say "No, it is nearly impossible to reach the 1100 A.D. for commoners". Only some noble families, and not so clearly, can reach the 1100, but most of them have some holes in their patrilineal lineage. When I was in Italy for school and university, I did research on a family of local adventurers, not noble but very active in politics: I was able to reach 1249, but with a very very hard work (i.e. more than 10 years of research).
 
What about r1a? Do you think that some lombards could carried r1a YDNA(a bit) or it in italy is more gothic related?
 
This quote from Taranis made me think whether we may have missed something more recent in Italy's history that could account for high R1b-U152 levels. How certain are we that the Lombards were R1b-U106, HG I?
R1b u152 Z36 looks as signature of Lombards. It would be interesting to know where else in Euroasia is Z36 strong

R1b_Z36.png
 
Nope, R1b U152 Z36 is more likely Scamozzina/Canegrate and Golasecca cultures.
That's possible. I certainly can't see it as Lombard with that huge hole in the northeast where the Lombard influence would be particularly strong.
 
Where you catch this map? It is very interessing
 
I think my R-U152 S8183 from Carnia (Italy) could be a good candidate to be related to Lombards. I thought it could be from the Celtic tribe Carni but the S8183 current distribution is too nordic to be Celtic. Let's wait for new data and see.
 
I have been trying to find out information on my Italian (Lombard?) dna and it brought me to this forum. My paternal Italian ancestor's were from Avigliano in Potenza with the surname of Stolfi - which is derived from Aistulf. My haplogroup per 23andme is I-L205.1 (which I believe might relate to the Lombards). I've always wondered about my Italian surname that sounded very German and I think due to my haplogroup and what I am learning about the Lombard's in Italy, I think I am beginning to figure it all out. I'm wondering now if having my brother take a Y-DNA FTDNA test would shed any more light. Any thoughts on what information might be gained by having him take a Y-DNA test and if it might confirm if our DNA is Lombard DNA?
 
I have been trying to find out information on my Italian (Lombard?) dna and it brought me to this forum. My paternal Italian ancestor's were from Avigliano in Potenza with the surname of Stolfi - which is derived from Aistulf. My haplogroup per 23andme is I-L205.1 (which I believe might relate to the Lombards). I've always wondered about my Italian surname that sounded very German and I think due to my haplogroup and what I am learning about the Lombard's in Italy, I think I am beginning to figure it all out. I'm wondering now if having my brother take a Y-DNA FTDNA test would shed any more light. Any thoughts on what information might be gained by having him take a Y-DNA test and if it might confirm if our DNA is Lombard DNA?
It looks Lombard, indeed.

This is the phylogenetic tree created by Maciamo time ago (you can find I-L205.1 two steps below I-L22):
I1-tree-top.png


Notice that the time to most recent common ancestor of I-L205.1 men living today is just 1600 years before present, i.e., ~400 AD:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L205/
There are British (brought by Anglo-Saxons to UK?) and Norwegian men in YFull, but I assume you would get more info in I1 Project at FTDNA regarding its current distribution. So, it's intuitive to think that this haplogroup arrived "from" North "to" South Italy after 400 AD, which doesn't conflict with the arrival of Lombards in South Italy. On the contrary. So you must be right.

I-L205.1 has only two subclades so far, and I'd guess 23andMe v5 doesn't test them (just checking the Raw Data to be sure).
BigY700 helps on the building of the phylogenetic tree. It could place you in some of the existant I-L205.1 branches, but it would be also possible that you belong to a brand new one (and matches could show up in the future, as more men test, either from Italy itself but also from other parts of Europe, perhaps). Keep in mind that the branching after the arrival of Lombards to Italy must be virtually exclusive to... Italy, naturally. We're talking on a little window of time to find haplogroups below I-L205.1 shared between Italians and Central/Northern Europeans.
Particularly, I'm not sure a very deep test could shed much more light. We already know it was carried by Lombards likely; we know the Lombards arrived in Italy a bit before 600 AD, and the influx of Lombards did not last for long, I'd guess, despite the centuries of dominance.
So, it depends on your goal, imo. I would not test BigY if it's just to confirm that the Y-DNA is Lombard, because it seems virtually confirmed already imo. Now, if you're really curious about possibly belonging to some existant branch, you could either risk single SNP tests of A1465 (firstly) and A10200 - but take in mind that A10200 has 4 equivalents - at YSEQ or, yes, perform a BigY700, if money is not a problem for you. je je Still assuming 23andMe v5 doesn't test any further. If it tested and you're negative for them, we'd know you belong to a new one just below I-L205.1, perhaps shared with other Europeans, but just time would tell.
 
Thank you so much! Great information! I think I will do a Y-test with FTDNA and I believe I can always pay more for additional testing if it's needed or wanted at some point. I uploaded the raw data to gedmatch and am just trying to figure out now how to convert my raw data from 23andme to a csv file so I can upload it to a few FTDNA groups, at least until I get a better kit to test with. I'm exciting at the thought that my ancestry can go back to the Lombards, so would love to confirm it with as much accuracy as I possibly can.
 
Thank you so much! Great information! I think I will do a Y-test with FTDNA and I believe I can always pay more for additional testing if it's needed or wanted at some point. I uploaded the raw data to gedmatch and am just trying to figure out now how to convert my raw data from 23andme to a csv file so I can upload it to a few FTDNA groups, at least until I get a better kit to test with. I'm exciting at the thought that my ancestry can go back to the Lombards, so would love to confirm it with as much accuracy as I possibly can.
Do you mean BigY700? After this one, no need of testing further. You could just share your BAM file with YFull and that's it.

Btw, you can't use 23andMe data in FTDNA Projects. 23andMe doesn't test STRs.
But you can sign up and join, afaik.

Here is yours:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I1dL205

The Y Chart:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I1dL205?iframe=yresults
 

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