J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

DuPidh said:

I did not say Albanians are Pellzg. Pellasgoi were a pre-Illyrian population who inhabited Albanian territories. The name Lissus is Pellazg. So is Larissa. Its documented by Greeks. Pellasgoi are relatively recent people. After Illyrians came eventually Pellasg people of Albania were assimilated and eventually became Ilyrians. So Pellasgoi are a pre- Illyrian, pre-hellen people probably inhabitants of most of Italy. Don't you think that Etrusca. were also Pellasg related people. Thats why Albanain genes are classified under Italy/Greece grouping as the legacy of common pellazg ancestry

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Albanians have nothing to do with the Pellasgians, leave those fairytales to the hyper-nationalist Albanians. We came from somewhere in the Dinaric mountainchain as attested by the three main haplogroups among Ghegs found by ancient DNA.

Albanian language is a mix of those along with more modern non-genetic cultural influences of other languages.

The only main Neolithic farmers were G2a who were annihilated by conquerors.


Some clueless posters don't even realize that J2b1 is almost as distant in split age with J2b2 as R1a is with R1b alone! 15 600 years!

DuPidh said:

I did not say Albanians are Pellzg. Pellasgoi were a pre-Illyrian population who inhabited Albanian territories. The name Lissus is Pellazg. So is Larissa. Its documented by Greeks. Pellasgoi are relatively recent people. After Illyrians came eventually Pellasg people of Albania were assimilated and eventually became Ilyrians. So Pellasgoi are a pre- Illyrian, pre-hellen people probably inhabitants of most of Italy. Don't you think that Etrusca. were also Pellasg related people. Thats why Albanain genes are classified under Italy/Greece grouping as the legacy of common pellazg ancestry

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This is all complete nonsense and you are an utter fool considering you are following an obsolete theory. You can pollute another thread with these speculative, baseless and outdated posts while me and Fatherland base it on set-in-stone genetics.

Fatherland said:

Albanians have nothing to do with the Pellasgians, leave those fairytales to the hyper-nationalist Albanians. We came from somewhere in the Dinaric mountainchain as attested by the three main haplogroups among Ghegs found by ancient DNA.

Albanian language is a mix of those along with more modern non-genetic cultural influences of other languages.

The only main Neolithic farmers were G2a who were annihilated by conquerors.

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Where do you see nationalism? You assume that Albanian territories were empty and somehow Illyrians came from North and filled the vacuum? What about the European connection? Which puts Hellenes and Illyrians at the same place in some past time. If Greek territories were inhabited by Pellazg why Albanian territories were empty according to your supposition?

Fustan said:

This is all complete nonsense and you are an utter fool considering you are following an obsolete theory. You can pollute another thread with these speculative, baseless and outdated posts while me and Fatherland base it on set-in-stone genetics.

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So how do you explain genetic similarity of Italy and Albania? Common sense similar genetics means similar people. Pellasgs make a lot of sense to bridge the gap.

DuPidh said:

So how do you explain genetic similarity of Italy and Albania? Common sense similar genetics means similar people. Pellasgs make a lot of sense to bridge the gap.

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Autosomal similarity means nothing. Albanians are very different to Greeks and Italians in ACTUAL genetic relatedness(except the Arberesh ones along with people with Messapian ancestry and some intact Arvanites).

DuPidh said:

So how do you explain genetic similarity of Italy and Albania? Common sense similar genetics means similar people. Pellasgs make a lot of sense to bridge the gap.

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Autosomal DNA is in it's infancy and will stay that way for decades if not more. It is not to be taken very seriously. Y-DNA is much better to trace population movements, and Y-DNA is what this entire thread is about while you're going on about your moronic theories.

But speaking of Y-DNA it is very simple. It is because of Illyrian and later medieval Albanian settlement in Italy. Apulia for example is full of J2b2-PH1751 which is a region that was settled by Messapians (who were Illyrians or Indo-European).

DuPidh,
"R1a" Illyrian haplogroup? Not a single evidence of that.
Fatherland and Fustan are spot on. I don't really need to add anything, but you seem to be talking very general when it comes to Y-DNA. It's evident by the fact that you seem to lump all "J2b" together. As Fatherland said, the split between J2b1 and J2b2 is almost as old as the split between R1a and R1b and their split was not in the Balkans. Furthermore, in ancient DNA J2b1-M205 has been found three times in the Levant region, while J2b2a-L283 which is the exclusive Albanian J2b branch, has been found in Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia), and coincides with the time period that Illyrians first appear in the western Balkans. Nowadays, with combination of DNA from ancient bones and modern deep clade distribution, we have much more data than even just a couple of years ago.

LeBrok said:

We see many times, through history, movements of people happening through Anatolia into Balkans from East to West, but very rarely (only Macedonian Greeks) from West to East.

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Well, there were definitely movements from the Balkans into Anatolia in the Early Bronze Age. I don't want to write any complete nonsense on this topic since it's not fresh on my mind so I'll refer to the first three volumes of The Cambrige Ancient History and the Oxford Handbook of Ancient Anatolia which are of interest here. After that, we have the documented and not as hypothetical Mycenaean presence in the Late Bronze Age and the Phrygian migration from the Balkans (which left traces there, in Illyria, Epirus, Macedonia and Thrace as 'Bryges') in the early Iron Age that seems to have benefitted (or even helped cause?) from the post-Hittite vacuum of power along with some other potential migrations of "Mysians", Thracians etc. which I'm sure you're aware of.

Anatolia too definitely needs to be sampled more.

Trojet said:

DuPidh,
"R1a" Illyrian haplogroup? Not a single evidence of that.
Fatherland and Fustan are spot on. I don't really need to add anything, but you seem to be talking very general when it comes to Y-DNA. It's evident by the fact that you seem to lump all "J2b" together. As Fatherland said, the split between J2b1 and J2b2 is almost as old as the split between R1a and R1b and their split was not in the Balkans. Furthermore, in ancient DNA J2b1-M205 has been found three times in the Levant region, while J2b2a-L283 which is the exclusive Albanian J2b branch, has been found in Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia), and coincides with the time period that Illyrians first appear in the western Balkans. Nowadays, with combination of DNA from ancient bones and modern deep clade distribution, we have much more data than even just a couple of years ago.

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Everything you say is reasonable. But can you name those three samples in the Levant? Because I think they don't label all three as such. (?)

This was in reality Illyria proper of Pliny;
Only parts of Montengro/south Dalmatia and North Albania



Then the province of Illyricum



And the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum Constantine sons


So the Illyrian thing is not very clear,also their first mention.

A. Papadimitriou said:

Everything you say is reasonable. But can you name those three samples in the Levant? Because I think they don't label all three as such. (?)

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Good point. Perhaps Maciamo will take a note of this because he seems to lump all "J2b" together and seems to think they migrated together since their split at ca. 15,900 ybp, as suggested by the title of this thread. Furthermore, he currently doesn't even mention these ancient J2b1 samples on his J2 page.

Ancient J2b1 samples:

1. I1730 North-Western Jordan Early Bronze Age 2489-2299 calBCE was tested J2b1-PF7331 aka M205.
Source: https://j2-m172.info/2016/06/first-...ant-bronze-age-lazaridis-et-al-first-farmers/

2. Bronze Age Sidon, Lebanon. One individual from ca. 1700 BC was tested as J2b-M12(xJ2b2a-L283). Since he is negative for J2b2a, he most likely is J2b1-M205.
Sources: www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10725-Ancient-DNA-from-Bronze-Age-Lebanon-(Haber-et-al-2017)
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/26/142448

3. Ancient Egyptian mummy:
JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 BC is J2b1-PF7314 aka M205
Sources: https://genetiker.wordpress.com
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694
www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10771-Ancient-Egyptian-mummy-genomes

4. Roman era Gladiator 3DRIF-26 was tested as J2b1-M205. His Autosomals suggest he came from the Middle East.
Source: https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogen...f-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/

Bottom line: Sample I4331 from Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia) dated 1700-1500 BC, which Maciamo bases his theory on this thread, was tested J2b2a-L283 and not J2b1, as can be seen here. Today J2b2a-M241>L283 by far reaches maximum frequency among Albanians (currently 33% among Northern Albanian tribes).

Great post Trojet. I have noticed that a lot of people in this forum and as you said, including the creator of this site Maciamo himself are not just lumping J2b all together, but also the European and Indian clade of J2b2. You'd think that the creator of Eupedia would know better, but I guess that it's sadly not the case.

Maybe I've been spoiled by the great and informed users of Anthrogenica considering people here seem to have no idea what they are talking about regarding even the most simplest concepts on haplogroups.

The OP should be renamed and edited. Especially the title.

Bergin said:

I was born and brought up in tirana. My father is geg (mirdite & shkoder), while my mother is tosk (gjirokaster & permet).

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Do you know if your father's​ line belongs to any tribe? If so, perhaps we can make an educated guess about your Y-DNA Not sure if you're aware, but we do have an Albanian Project at FTDNA. IMO, you should've tested at FTDNA (Y37+) for a better Y-DNA classification. But either way, do let us know your result from Living DNA.

Sile said:

the new video by andrew garrett and david reich has albanian branching off form ancient germanic .............this video is only a month old and that is the current theory

garrett is a linguistic specialist and reich a genetic specialist...they have combined for this video

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Link for this video please?

Sile said:

the new video by andrew garrett and david reich has albanian branching off form ancient germanic .............this video is only a month old and that is the current theory

garrett is a linguistic specialist and reich a genetic specialist...they have combined for this video

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It is most likely not Ancient Germanic, but related to it in a broader Indo-European context. Let's not set everything in stone so quickly yet.

What Sile is trying to convince you about that video by Garret and Reich is one huge lie and distortion of the speech. I KNOW he hasnt even seen it. You know why? Because i saw it, and they only bring up that language tree(albanian brnaching of germanic) as an example of how a language tree looks like. He points out EXPLICITLY that he does not know if that tree is more correct than the thousands of other language trees which have been proposed through the centuries. I even posted a link to that Reich and Garret meeting at the post about the video. If Sile had watched the speech he would have known that. But he would obviously rather just post something completely out of context, and mislead several other posters. Go watch it and you can see how Sile was just distorting things.


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Balkanite said:

I even posted a link to that Reich and Garret meeting at the post about the video.

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Can you please resent the link to that video, I missed it in the mayhem. Thanks

Of course
Here you go,
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/aps-meeting

Make sure it is the one from 29 april(the link should be correct though). The date will show up on one of the first PowerPoint slides.
And also skip a few minutes pg the video, because if i remember correctly there is just blank screen for the first few minutes.



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Very interesting


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Could we get a J2b2 map done? I see there is a J2b1 one.

But since J2b2-L283 only exists in Europe it would be interesting to see this.