liguri v13

Angela said:
Elio,
I'm quite aware that the Regio IX Romana reached Nizza and included Parma and Piacenza. The ancestral territory of the Ligures probably extended even further into France and further into northern Italy as well. Not only do the names of supposedly "Roman" towns derive from words in the ancient Ligurian language, but there are attested speakers of it in northern Italy into the first centuries AD.

I do see E-V13 as part of the spread of Cardial culture, it's probable use of ancient sea routes that included Sicily, and the fact that most of the E-V13 in Liguria probably stems from that period. I've also already stated that I doubt that Greek traders could have had a huge impact or a few hundred Byzantine soldiers during the period of the Gothic Wars or sent to defend the corridor to Ravenna, for that matter.

So, we are largely in agreement. However, this is a science, and speculation is not good enough, and probably is not good enough; we need ancient dna which is highly resolved.
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I agree. I think E-V13 is old enough to have been part of the Cardial moves, even if as a minority. We have more and more ancient DNA, but not so much for Y-haplos and not in a great number of places. "Future" past could deliver us some surprises again.
concerning the Ligurians concept I see we are here in the same state as for "Pelasgians": what kind of Ligurians? only Neolithic or pre-Neolithic people, or the ones who seemingly spoke an I-E language akin enoughh to Celtic and Italic? These last ones, appeared lately enough in History, were surely heavily Y-R1b, U152 for the most, were they not? surely a mix, but with new male ligneages. The today Liguria is an other matter.
I see in the post #12 we are in accord concerning E-V13 in Balkans and elsewhere in S-Europe, with the current knowledge we have access to.

 
ELIOV13 said:
Herodotus, who was not quite the last, but he traveled to learn about customs and peoples called them of Illyrian origin, and, if it were not for the wave of migration Slavic, you would have seen many in Dalmazia.Venezia V13 has always drawn on the trades and domains from the sea where between the coast and the other you 'just the cradle of the V13.
Then over time important were also the Etruscans, Greeks and bizantini.Adria vicino.Tito Livio was there in Roman times traced phonation of Padua in refugee Troiani.Ce catered 'to talk of V13 .....
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I see you have a lot of knowledge on Ev13 . What is the situation of Ev 13 today on gypsy population? I am interested on this
 
Li means to Let to Leave something in a pLace Gur means stone in Arbanian tongue , LiGur means Leave stones , what was the reason for this name maybe a Legend of the Ligurian history can tell us , far as i know the or a part region of Liguria was called Arbenga https://lij.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbenga
Arb is the name of the Arbanians/Arbanese.
 
Arban Hoti said:
Li means to Let to Leave something in a pLace Gur means stone in Arbanian tongue , LiGur means Leave stones , what was the reason for this name maybe a Legend of the Ligurian history can tell us , far as i know the or a part region of Liguria was called Arbenga https://lij.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbenga
Arb is the name of the Arbanians/Arbanese.
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I don't see what's your point here. But I may include that in Europe were two branches of IE people.
1- the firs is the branch of the indigenous people of Europe who became indio-europeanized . In this branch we include either the Pelasgians. The remains of those people are the Albanians, Latin nations and the Celtics.
2- at the second branch are the true and real IE people. The Greeks, the Slavic nations, the Germanic nations.
 
My point is to make people realize that the name of the Albanians is in reality Arban , the Arbanoi were mentioned by this name by ancient writers telling the story when the Greeks first came to our land in Argos , these Greeks were called Danoi and the people that they met were called Arban , and now it looks like the Arbanians are E-v13 people and here it is talked about the Ligurians being or having E-v13 , now i brought an linguistic argument about the name Ligur and about the south of Liguria which is still called Arbenga according to wikipedia in Italian , so the Ligurians their name their blood and that name Arb tells that they at some time were Arbanians , the purpose of this is to make it easier and/or to help people understand who the E-v13 ppl were.
But whats your point talking about a ghost people called Indo-European .
 
Maleth said:
index.php


http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=3952.0



Venice seems to have similar distributions of E-V13. Does Veneto have a similar story to Liguria in its distribution?
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Where did you get these numbersa for veneto......................in ftdna North-italy, AlPGEN and friuli-Venezie-Giulia...it has very little ...........it does have E-V35 same as the 5 year natgeno study on the area completed in 2010

 
Sile said:
Where did you get these numbersa for veneto......................in ftdna North-italy, AlPGEN and friuli-Venezie-Giulia...it has very little ...........it does have E-V35 same as the 5 year natgeno study on the area completed in 2010

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you can just click on the link and you will find the source, and anyway you are not talking of too much differences from your pie chart to the map it flactuates between 12 to 8 percent. No big deal ;).......you provided no source on your pie chart Mr. Sile :)
 
Piro Ilir said:
I don't see what's your point here. But I may include that in Europe were two branches of IE people.
1- the firs is the branch of the indigenous people of Europe who became indio-europeanized . In this branch we include either the Pelasgians. The remains of those people are the Albanians, Latin nations and the Celtics.
2- at the second branch are the true and real IE people. The Greeks, the Slavic nations, the Germanic nations.
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Its not as straight forward as that in haplogroups and human migrations.....the story is much more complex then that and we only know a fraction of it.
 
Piro Ilir said:
Thanks for your answer. As I know Turks have a small percentage of EV13 . So they can't brought with them the EV13 . With all the respect for them, Turks are completely different from Albanians, both in appearance and in language. But either, there are some strange things on Albanians genetics as I know, but we can't talk here about this issue.
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I know this is off topic, but just a short reply. There is nothing 'strange' about Albanian genetics. Please inform yourself before you comment. If there is something you don't understand, please open a thread or reply to a thread that has already been opened. There are few members here that are also mods at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna, including myself, and we would be more then happy to help. If you wish to ask in Albanian, you can go here: foleja.net.
 
Arban Hoti said:
My point is to make people realize that the name of the Albanians is in reality Arban , the Arbanoi were mentioned by this name by ancient writers telling the story when the Greeks first came to our land in Argos , these Greeks were called Danoi and the people that they met were called Arban , and now it looks like the Arbanians are E-v13 people and here it is talked about the Ligurians being or having E-v13 , now i brought an linguistic argument about the name Ligur and about the south of Liguria which is still called Arbenga according to wikipedia in Italian , so the Ligurians their name their blood and that name Arb tells that they at some time were Arbanians , the purpose of this is to make it easier and/or to help people understand who the E-v13 ppl were.
But whats your point talking about a ghost people called Indo-European .
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Why you think that the IE people were or are a ghost?
 
Skerdilaidas said:
I know this is off topic, but just a short reply. There is nothing 'strange' about Albanian genetics. Please inform yourself before you comment. If there is something you don't understand, please open a thread or reply to a thread that has already been opened. There are few members here that are also mods at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna, including myself, and we would be more then happy to help. If you wish to ask in Albanian, you can go here: foleja.net.
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I was referring to EV13 which it's higher in gheg Albans, especially to the east ghegs. Otherwise the I2 is higher in tosk Albanians. Why is that?
 
Maleth said:
Its not as straight forward as that in haplogroups and human migrations.....the story is much more complex then that and we only know a fraction of it.
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Generally I have more knowledge about the history. I am an ignorant about genetics. I try to read about genetics, to understand better the history. Definitely I think that the language it's the core of a nation, no matter what's their patriarchal DNA lineage. I only hope that DNA helps me about the history events.
 
more knowledge about the history
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History is only 5,000 years when as invented. Genetics and archaeology help with pre-history and unwritten history.

Also one must consider that history is written by the victors so there is a bias somewhere. There maybe more than two versions to events. Each side writing that are favorable to themselves or justification for their actions.
 
Piro Ilir said:
Generally I have more knowledge about the history. I am an ignorant about genetics. I try to read about genetics, to understand better the history. Definitely I think that the language it's the core of a nation, no matter what's their patriarchal DNA lineage. I only hope that DNA helps me about the history events.
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Terminologies such as Greeks, Germanics, and so on are a very recent creation compared to haplogroups creations and their subgroups. They do not really go well together. We can discuss dominant haplogroups in a particular group but a whole haplogroup is not totally representative of a language or a country as these are taken up and shed off according to economies and power of the time.
 
oriental said:
History is only 5,000 years when as invented. Genetics and archaeology help with pre-history and unwritten history.

Also one must consider that history is written by the victors so there is a bias somewhere. There maybe more than two versions to events. Each side writing that are favorable to themselves or justification for their actions.
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Agree. I think the genetics helps me to have more knowledge on the events, that's all.
 
Maleth said:
Terminologies such as Greeks, Germanics, and so on are a very recent creation compared to haplogroups creations and their subgroups. They do not really go well together. We can discuss dominant haplogroups in a particular group but a whole haplogroup is not totally representative of a language or a country as these are taken up and shed off according to economies and power of the time.
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Yes, I know that they don't go well together, even so I think the genetics helps us, likewise the archeology and ancient writings, etc. To have a better view onto the historical events, we gather the archeology, genetics and ancient writings, and after we try to make a point.

2- if one today it's born in Italy and his native language is Italian, his ethnicity is Italian, no matter what could be his DNA. I think the language it's the core of the nation. Genetic help just to know better the spread of ancient population
 
Sile said:
Where did you get these numbersa for veneto......................in ftdna North-italy, AlPGEN and friuli-Venezie-Giulia...it has very little ...........it does have E-V35 same as the 5 year natgeno study on the area completed in 2010

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1) Northern Italy is vast so the North Italy Project is not all that dispositive here. Venice is but one city. LOL. Yes, E is like 11-12% in Northern Italy on the whole, and about 9% E-V13.
2) Veneto is a separate province from Friulia-Venezia Giulia. Venice is a coastal city in Veneto. That it is coastal matters a lot.
3) E-V13 is a branch of E-M35. In the north & east of Italy virtually all the E is E-V13 (this means that it is E-M35 also).
4) E-V13 has a strong coastal distribution. That's true pretty much everywhere in Italy, although there is slightly more of it in the mountains & more central parts of the peninsula than along the western coast & in the large west-coast cities, probably due to centuries & centuries of invasions, incursions & immigrations into the west of the peninsula.
5) The east of Veneto, along the coast where Venice is, is a particular hotspot for E-V13. Same with Liguria, except Liguria as a whole is a particular hotspot because Liguria is entirely coastal. The same is not true for Veneto & Friulia-Venezia Giulia, where much of their provincial territory is inland.
6) I don't know where your numbers are from, but I've seen studies that put E at around 20% in Venice & coastal Veneto. Pretty much all of that E is E-V13.
 
ESpraguer said:
1) Northern Italy is vast so the North Italy Project is not all that dispositive here. Venice is but one city. LOL. Yes, E is like 11-12% in Northern Italy on the whole, and about 9% E-V13.
2) Veneto is a separate province from Friulia-Venezia Giulia. Venice is a coastal city in Veneto. That it is coastal matters a lot.
3) E-V13 is a branch of E-M35. In the north & east of Italy virtually all the E is E-V13 (this means that it is E-M35 also).
4) E-V13 has a strong coastal distribution. That's true pretty much everywhere in Italy, although there is slightly more of it in the mountains & more central parts of the peninsula than along the western coast & in the large west-coast cities, probably due to centuries & centuries of invasions, incursions & immigrations into the west of the peninsula.
5) The east of Veneto, along the coast where Venice is, is a particular hotspot for E-V13. Same with Liguria, except Liguria as a whole is a particular hotspot because Liguria is entirely coastal. The same is not true for Veneto & Friulia-Venezia Giulia, where much of their provincial territory is inland.
6) I don't know where your numbers are from, but I've seen studies that put E at around 20% in Venice & coastal Veneto. Pretty much all of that E is E-V13.
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The Nat-geno project was about Venice and the Dogana only , it went from 2005 to 2010 ...........it did not take any data from the veneto unless the sampled people proved that their ancestors ( both sides ) originated from Venice

The E-M35 was mostly SNP L117

Ask Nat-geno to send you their data ...........IIRC it had only 156 samples.
 
Sile said:
The Nat-geno project was about Venice and the Dogana only , it went from 2005 to 2010 ...........it did not take any data from the veneto unless the sampled people proved that their ancestors ( both sides ) originated from Venice

The E-M35 was mostly SNP L117

Ask Nat-geno to send you their data ...........IIRC it had only 156 samples.
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There is an argument to be made that the stricter are the standards the less representative of Venice will be the results. Venice, for a long time, has been riddled with tradesmen, fishermen, ordinary folk. If you want to know the DNA of Venice, go sample the locals. Not people in the diaspora, people in Northern Europe, etc. Moreover, the more documentation you demand, the more likely you are going to skew the results toward the wealthy & well-to-do. If you demand people be able to prove they're from Venice, that their progenitors are from Venice, that their progenitors' progenitors are from Venice, etc. you're basically just sampling the nobility. The numbers you have here therefore are probably more representative of the nobility than Venice as a whole. Look at the extreme R1b numbers! This is exactly what would be expected from such a system. This is like determining the Y-DNA of Americans based upon a sampling of people with the surname "Rockefeller". The Boattini data gives us 70 samples for Veneto as a region. 10% is E-V13 & another 4% other E1b1b. That sounds about right for Veneto as a whole. However, E-V13 has a particular coastal distribution in the east of the Italian peninsula. Therefore I'd expect E-V13 to be slightly to somewhat above 10% in the historic Venetian population, perhaps 12 or 14%. 6-8% seems very, very, very low, but I think it can be explained by the sampling issues I addressed. Poor immigrants & poor residents will be far less likely to be able to prove they are true Venetians.
 
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