Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

broder said:
Begolli doesn’t seem to have been Dukagjin. Nor Berishe or Gash.
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I find these Albanian tribes origin discussions genuinely interesting and how historical artifacts are either further proven by DNA research or disproven. A thread about this topic seems to be long overdue.
 
mount123 said:
I find these Albanian tribes origin discussions genuinely interesting and how historical artifacts are either further proven by DNA research or disproven. A thread about this topic seems to be long overdue.
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It’s a colonizer’s curiosity that you share with Americans who’re interested to know from where they came before settling in the US and that is completely understandable.

I also support the idea of opening a new thread about the various migrations of Albanians, Vlachs, Serbs, Bulgarians, Turks, Tatars, Iranians, Circassians, etc. that merged in Kosovo to create the modern identity we know of.

Interesting how the admixture in certain areas reflects the allegiance of individuals from Kosovo, be that pro-Albanian, independent, Turkophile, islamic viewpoint of the world (putting religion before ethnicity), Slavic, etc.
 
Dushman said:
It’s a colonizer’s curiosity that you share with Americans who’re interested to know from where they came before settling in the US and that is completely understandable.

I also support the idea of opening a new thread about the various migrations of Albanians, Vlachs, Serbs, Bulgarians, Turks, Tatars, Iranians, Circassians, etc. that merged in Kosovo to create the modern identity we know of.

Interesting how the admixture in certain areas reflects the allegiance of individuals from Kosovo, be that pro-Albanian, independent, Turkophile, islamic viewpoint of the world (putting religion before ethnicity), Slavic, etc.
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There is no modern Iranian, Turkic DNA in Kosovo Albanians or other Albanians. In addition to auDNA you might also want to look at the uniparental markers of Kosovo Albanians which shows clear Paleo-Balkan dominance.

As for myself I know who I am, Nika on the father's side and Korbi on paternal mother's side. You know, it's that parental DNA you find in very ancient DNA from the East and West Adriatic and all over the Balkans ;)
 
mount123 said:
There is no modern Iranian, Turkic DNA in Kosovo Albanians or other Albanians. In addition to auDNA you might also want to look at the uniparental markers of Kosovo Albanians which shows clear Paleo-Balkan dominance.

As for myself I know who I am, Nika on the father's side and Korbi on paternal mother's side. You know, it's that parental DNA you find in very ancient DNA from the East and West Adriatic and all over the Balkans ;)
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There’s already plenty of Kosovars posting their results online on YouTube and Facebook (Albanian DNA groups) where we can see Anatolian, Levantine, even Jewish, and that’s normal. Every Ottoman urban area had a multiethnic population.

Yes exactly, you’re a descendant of a Nikaj who’re our neighbouring clan whom we intermarried for hundreds of year, and your Nikaj ancestor went to Kosovo and became a Muslim subject of the Ottomans.

A Bostonian of Irish ancestry is not Irish anymore after 300 years, he’s a Bostonian of Irish heritage and other admixtures along the way.

P.S. You claim to be a Nikaj just like Kosovars claim to be Krasniqi, Shala, Thaci, Kelmendi, Hoti, Gashi, Berisha, etc., yet only part of them are truly that, the rest are just random families that adopted that clan name and we can see how each clan has E-V13, J2b2, R1b, I2a, J1, J2, basically it’s mostly fairy tales.
 
Funny enough, most families from Kosove and Macedonia that claim to have Turkish roots that have tested have ended up belonging to native linages, predominantly Albanian. Only in one instance a family tested as CTS10228.

So, the eastern genetic influence (Anatolian, Jewish etc) seems to have had almost no impact on Albanians during the Ottoman Empire, at least in Kosove. The eastern shift that is to be found throughout the Balkans today mostly came during the Roman Empire.
 
Yes, we have only like 300 tested people from Kosovo and we already see many with an obvious impact, but the 2+ million have almost no impact.

ALL urban centers had an Ottoman impact, be that people from other regions in the Balkans, Anatolia, or Middle East/Iran. In my hometown in Shkodra we have many families that that of their Turkish, Egyptian, Iranian, etc. origin and that’s pretty obvious because they even look like.
 
Repeating the same non factual sentences won't make them more true.
 
broder said:
Funny enough, most families from Kosove and Macedonia that claim to have Turkish roots that have tested have ended up belonging to native linages, predominantly Albanian. Only in one instance a family tested as CTS10228.
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Vlla, we know about the parental and auDNA of Kosovo Albanians and other Albanians. The DNA speaks for itself, we are autochthonous and not late Ottoman migrants like that person is repeatedly claiming. I don't think you can convince someone who refuses scientific data and has a problematic mindset, s'ja vlen :)
 
A lot more than 300 have tested, especially on 23andme. I am not that interested on autosomal dna to be honest so I don’t follow that closely. I do however pay attention to my matches on 23andme. I have over 1200 matches and I have yet to see one example from Kosove that deviates from the Alb norm autosomally.
 
User Bruzmi has created a nice descriptive post on a new Albanian G25 average:

With several other users we collected K13 (which were then converted to G25 sims) and G25 coords by Albanians from different regions in order to create a more representative average for the Albanian population. I would like to thank everybody who helped and make a special mention for Zanatis who found and contacted many individuals for sampling. The full list of individual samples will be published at a later date as full annotation is being worked out and new samples will likely be added.

n= 77 (12 samples from the existing G25 dataset + 65 new G25 sims and G25)

Existing Albanian G25 dataset (n=12) and new dataset (n=77)
Vahaduo-Global-25-Views.png


The existing Albanian dataset covers ~70% of total Albanian variability as reflected in the new dataset. The inner distribution at the intersection between the two datasets is highly different and much of the average variability and inner clustering of Albanian samples is not represented in the older dataset. This means that the existing dataset is only partly representative of average Albanian variability both quantitatively and qualitatively.

Comparison of average values:
Code:
Albanian_old,0.1181863,0.1417511,0.0155562,-0.0158808,0.0251586,-0.0074138,0.0033683,0.0018077,0.0006648,0.0161279,0.0011097,0.0015486,-0.0070986,0.0066059,-0.019295,-0.0041544,0.0081273,0.0014992,0.0082962,-0.0059402,-0.0055629,0.0007212,0.0024238,0.0021991,-0.0025248
Albanian_new,0.12098974,0.1446909,0.016269078,-0.016299558,0.025773831,-0.0048755065,0.00095344156,0.00027711688,0.0031148831,0.015759169,0.00013324675,0.0026802597,-0.0071447403,0.0023749221,-0.012327208,-0.00037183117,0.0078564935,0.00061572727,0.0042468831,-0.004238987,-0.0050441039,0.00093803896,0.00063811688,0.000061818182,-0.000051051948
average.png


Modern populations:

Distance to: Albanian_old
0.01172523 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.01398776 Greek_Macedonia
0.01647191 Greek_Thessaly
0.01738110 Rumelia_East
0.01894300 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02764228 Italian_Tuscany
0.02824767 Swiss_Italian
0.02837148 Italian_Piedmont
0.02864146 Gagauz
0.02928925 Italian_Marche
0.03115133 Greek_Izmir
0.03122240 Bulgarian
0.03123173 Italian_Umbria
0.03186874 Greek_Laconia
0.03281939 Italian_Molise

Distance to: Albanian_new
0.01209714 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.01400206 Greek_Thessaly
0.01672179 Greek_Macedonia
0.01775242 Rumelia_East
0.01968231 Italian_Tuscany
0.02000210 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02007244 Swiss_Italian
0.02023180 Italian_Piedmont
0.02366034 Italian_Marche
0.02453388 Italian_Umbria
0.02717856 Italian_Veneto
0.02876732 Gagauz
0.03021512 Italian_Lazio
0.03054964 Italian_Bergamo
0.03057167 Greek_Laconia


Pre-medieval populations:

Distance to: Albanian_old
0.02599546 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.03105090 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.03277406 Scythian_MDA
0.03455405 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean
0.03609949 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.03611625 HRV_Pop_CA
0.03664529 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup
0.03753924 HUN_LBA_EIA
0.04001548 HRV_EBA
0.04127877 HRV_EIA


Distance to: Albanian_new
0.02432793 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.02581156 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.03151149 Scythian_MDA
0.03310358 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean
0.03435231 HUN_LBA_EIA
0.03437358 HRV_Pop_CA
0.03441905 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup
0.03506589 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.03517396 HRV_EIA
0.03580568 HRV_EBA

Distance to populations from the Roman Balkans:

Distance to: Albanian_old
0.02937597 Gardun_Tilurium_Croatia_549_CE_600CE:3544:3544
0.03335371 Zadar_Croatia_127_CE_227_CE:3747
0.03422501 Sipar_Umag_Croatia_558_CE_639_CE:3662:3662
0.03542427 Sviloš_Kruševlje_Serbia_236_CE_331_CE:6693:6693
0.03654690 Beli_Manastir_Croatia_255_CE_405_CE:3542:3542
0.03776972 Sirmium_Serbia_266_CE_430_CE:6730:6730
0.03944106 Sviloš_Kruševlje_Serbia_236_CE_331_CE:6701:6701
0.04265914 Sipar_Umag_Croatia_686_CE_876_CE:3663:3663
0.04736707 Zadar_Croatia_22_CE_121_CE:3745:3745
0.04839841 Osijek_Croatia_133CE_306CE:3655:3655
0.05454439 Zadar_Croatia_127_CE_227_CE:3746
0.06185512 Doclea_Bjelovine_Montenegro_709_CE_880_CE:3478:347 8
0.06991570 Trogir_Dragulin_Croatia_124_CE_217_CE:3665:3665
0.07280484 Zadar_Croatia_127_CE_227_CE:3742:3742
0.08226871 Sirmium_Serbia_1481_CE_1635_CE:6737:6737
0.08259413 Sirmium_Serbia_1479_CE_1634_CE:3906:3906
0.09071470 Trogir_Policija_Croatia_120CE_215_CE:3670:3670
0.09710730 Viminacium_Serbia_129_CE_230_CE:3931:3931

Distance to: Albanian_new
0.02666428 Gardun_Tilurium_Croatia_549_CE_600CE:3544:3544
0.02799523 Zadar_Croatia_127_CE_227_CE:3747
0.02951193 Sipar_Umag_Croatia_558_CE_639_CE:3662:3662
0.03226992 Beli_Manastir_Croatia_255_CE_405_CE:3542:3542
0.03471729 Sviloš_Kruševlje_Serbia_236_CE_331_CE:6693:6693
0.03678690 Sirmium_Serbia_266_CE_430_CE:6730:6730
0.03816536 Sviloš_Kruševlje_Serbia_236_CE_331_CE:6701:6701
0.03840354 Sipar_Umag_Croatia_686_CE_876_CE:3663:3663
0.04563692 Zadar_Croatia_22_CE_121_CE:3745:3745
0.04621254 Osijek_Croatia_133CE_306CE:3655:3655
0.05284715 Zadar_Croatia_127_CE_227_CE:3746
0.06097498 Doclea_Bjelovine_Montenegro_709_CE_880_CE:3478:347 8
0.06912722 Trogir_Dragulin_Croatia_124_CE_217_CE:3665:3665
0.07371484 Zadar_Croatia_127_CE_227_CE:3742:3742
0.08221655 Sirmium_Serbia_1479_CE_1634_CE:3906:3906
0.08246558 Sirmium_Serbia_1481_CE_1635_CE:6737:6737
0.09039312 Trogir_Policija_Croatia_120CE_215_CE:3670:3670
0.09498046 Viminacium_Serbia_129_CE_230_CE:3931:3931


Comments:
1)In comparison to the old dataset, the new Albanian cluster shows a higher affinity to pre-medieval populations in the Balkans and modern southern Europe and a lower post-Migration Period admixture.

2) Within Albania, on the north-south axis, there is no distinct geographical south/north sub-clustering which is to say that all possible variations of the same typical profile are found from south to north of Albania.

Vahaduo-Global-25-Views-1.png


(veri = north, jug= south, Shqipëri qendrore = central Albania - samples which have origins from both southern and northern regions weren't used in this PCA)

3)Some profiles which were considered to be outliers on the official G25 dataset are in fact common part of Albanian variation. AL12 is one such profile which is almost entirely EEF/Yamnaya. There are several Albanian profiles which have such features. In my opinion, as such features aren't correlated with population contact situations, a likely explanation is endogamy within particular Albanian regions. Endogamy may have enhanced certain components, while it lowered to a great extent others (autosomal drift).
Click to expand...
 
I am the easternmost Albanian around, and i am one of the Alboz with least Anatolian/Levantine from all Albanians, technically i am a EEF/Yamnaya mix combo almost 60/40 ratio. I always thought i might have some Turkic admixture due to the pseudo-Mongoloid eyes i have, but i guess it's just the Yamnaya/EEF combo which makes me look like that.
 
broder said:
A lot more than 300 have tested, especially on 23andme. I am not that interested on autosomal dna to be honest so I don’t follow that closely. I do however pay attention to my matches on 23andme. I have over 1200 matches and I have yet to see one example from Kosove that deviates from the Alb norm autosomally.
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Each region has their own “norm”. Mount123 is interested in putting me against others by portraying me as if I said Kosovars are Ottoman migrants.

Truth is the areas around Gjakova to Prizren fall within North Albania.

Then overall Kosovars have elevated Baltic as well as East Med on Eurgones K13 which is very different from North Albanians and Albanians from Montenegro (whom Peja and surroundings have similarities with).

So overall Kosovars have a both Northern and Eastern shift.
 
Hawk said:
I am the easternmost Albanian around, and i am one of the Alboz with least Anatolian/Levantine from all Albanians, technically i am a EEF/Yamnaya mix combo almost 60/40 ratio. I always thought i might have some Turkic admixture due to the pseudo-Mongoloid eyes i have, but i guess it's just the Yamnaya/EEF combo which makes me look like that.
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Post your K13 results and we’ll see what admixture you have. Mongoloid-like eyes are not a coincidence. You definitely have at least a parent from an urban area/city.

Those eyes are very common among many hot Kosovo girls I’ve met on the seaside in Albania and Montenegro and it’s not limited to specific areas. I’ve seen those eyes in girls from Peja, Gjakova, Prishtina, Gjilan, Prizren.

I have yet to meet “exotic” girls from Decani and Drenica though.
 
Dushman said:
Each region has their own “norm”. Mount123 is interested in putting me against others by portraying me as if I said Kosovars are Ottoman migrants.

Truth is the areas around Gjakova to Prizren fall within North Albania.

Then overall Kosovars have elevated Baltic as well as East Med on Eurgones K13 which is very different from North Albanians and Albanians from Montenegro (whom Peja and surroundings have similarities with).

So overall Kosovars have a both Northern and Eastern shift.
Click to expand...

Regionally speaking Kosove is a lot more complex when it comes to Slavic influence. Based on uniparental markers Peje and Decan thus far do stand out and both cities are as west as they can get. Prizren will too, based on Gora being within their realm. Rahovec as well considering the multilingual communities there. East, I think Gjilan may be in similar standing if not higher. Perhaps Ferizaj as well and maybe even Lipjan. Prishtine, Llap etc seem pretty compact actually.

I don’t really like calculators like K13 in all honestly. Family Finder at FTDNA in the past was a better tool me thinks picking up the Slavic influence with their ‘Eastern European’ cluster. 23andme is totally useless here.
 
broder said:
Regionally speaking Kosove is a lot more complex when it comes to Slavic influence. Based on uniparental markers Peje and Decan thus far do stand out and both cities are as west as they can get. Prizren will too, based on Gora being within their realm. Rahovec as well considering the multilingual communities there. East, I think Gjilan may be in similar standing if not higher. Perhaps Ferizaj as well and maybe even Lipjan. Prishtine, Llap etc seem pretty compact actually.

I don’t really like calculators like K13 in all honestly. Family Finder at FTDNA in the past was a better tool me thinks picking up the Slavic influence with their ‘Eastern European’ cluster. 23andme is totally useless here.
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FTDNA, 23andme, Ancestry, and all the other companies do not pick up ancient to older ancestry.

Compared to the Illyrians and Roman citizens of the Balkans, we’re first South-Eastern shifted and then Northern and North-Eastern shifted with the migration period admixture.

Both Eurogenes K13 and Dodecad K12b are decent tools to compare yourself with other Albanians. I’m not saying they’re super accurate (I don’t know that), but if they’re not accurate then they’re not for everybody equally.
 
Scholars like Vekony argue that the Gava / Channelled Ware people were the ancestors of the Dacians, Getians, and Mysians.


This culture also appears in North Albania & Kosova.


Does this mean there was a Dacian related people also in Albania alongside the Glasinac Illyrians?

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FXJRhGOWQAAfWHx
 
Johane Derite said:
Scholars like Vekony argue that the Gava / Channelled Ware people were the ancestors of the Dacians, Getians, and Mysians.


This culture also appears in North Albania & Kosova.


Does this mean there was a Dacian related people also in Albania alongside the Glasinac Illyrians?

FXJQfxLXwAEuh6p

FXJRhGOWQAAfWHx
Click to expand...


It's for sure, because not just the G?va/Channelled/cannelure groups came to Albania, but there were also later contacts of significance with Thraco-Cimmerians/Basarabi, which was basically a Thracian/Dacian culture. However, that was for the later periods more of an influence, the Illyrian side seems to have turned out dominant in the developed Iron Age. This was primarily in the Transitional Period of the LBA-EIA and the very early EIA.
 
Johane Derite said:
Scholars like Vekony argue that the Gava / Channelled Ware people were the ancestors of the Dacians, Getians, and Mysians.


This culture also appears in North Albania & Kosova.


Does this mean there was a Dacian related people also in Albania alongside the Glasinac Illyrians?

FXJQfxLXwAEuh6p

FXJRhGOWQAAfWHx
Click to expand...

I think that Dardanians might be another offshot of some Channeled-Ware groups, or atleast one of Channeled-Ware groups heavily influencing the historical Dardanians. We shouldn't necessary equate Proto-Thracians with all Channeled-Ware groups, because in my opinion Thracians had influences and admixture from equestrian people like Noua-Sabatinovska-Coslogeni people. Even Fanula Papazoglu considered Dardanians as being quite conservatively Balkan in comparison with Thracians, Greeks and Illyrians.

I find it interesting that from the few archaeological armors we have from Dardanians, king Monunius wore a Thraco-Phrygian helmet. Doesn't have to neccessarily mean anything though, just an interesting case. Just as Hammond thought Bardyllis dynasty came from Peresadyes tribe, just as Enchelei/Sesarethi and Taulanti. Peresadyes was a name used by Odrysians as well, and Spartokid kings in Black Sea region.

Note that Dardanians historically were regarded Illyrian, ethnically in antiquity that might be true, archaeologically we might have different story. But Albanian archaeologists do aknowledge several material cultures on forming historical Illyrians, the most important one being Glasinac-Mat complex and related cultures, and the other one important being Trebeniste Culture whose historical counterpart might be Enchelei and/or Taulanti. Back in time Albanian archaeologists couldn't voice their opinion so open-mindly because of the regime, but Muzafer Korkuti was one of the first to note about the Kanellure influence without going deep, Rovena Kurti then said that Kanellure is typical for Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age. It could be that this particular offshot culture could have influenced the forming of historical Illyrians within the borders of Albania.

z9HimP8.jpg
 
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