J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

mount123 · Dec 6, 2022

The J2b-L283 samples in Mygdalia are the result of EBA Cetina migrations into Greece. Pelasgians or Aegean Neolithics nor Paeonians have anything to do with EBA Cetina or J2b-L283 at all. You should read the sources amigo.

torzio · Dec 6, 2022

Wanderer said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgus_of_Argos

These J-L283 would be pelasgians

In The Suppliants
Edit
In Aeschylus' play The Suppliants[4][5] the Danaïdes fleeing from Egypt seek asylum from King Pelasgus of Argos, who rules a broad territory bordered by the territory of the Paeonians to the north, the Strymon (river) to the east, and Dodona, the slopes of the Pindus mountains, and the sea to the west;[6], that is, a territory including or north of the Thessalian Pelasgiotis. The southern boundary is not mentioned; however, Apis is said to have come to Argos from Naupactus "on the farther shore," (on the north coast of the Gulf of Corinth) [7] implying that Pelasgus' kingdom includes all of Greece from the north of Thessaly west of the Strymon to the shores of Peloponnesian Argos where the Danaïdes landed. He claims to rule the Pelasgians and to be the "child of Palaichthon ('ancient earth') whom the earth brought forth."

The Danaïdes call the country the "Apian hills" and claim that it understands the karbana audan,[8][9] which many translate as "barbarian speech" but Karba (where live the Karbanoi) is in fact a non-Greek word. They claim to descend from ancestors in ancient Argos even though they are of a "dark race" (melanthes... genos).[10] Pelasgus admits that the land was once called Apia but compares them to the women of Libya and Egypt[11] and wants to know how they can be from Argos on which they cite descent from Io.

In a lost play by Aeschylus, Danaan Women, he defines the original homeland of the Pelasgians as the region around Mycenae.[12]

Pelasgians were the original Mycenean greeks. Not e1b greeks it seems.
Cetina J-L283 would be one of the Ancestors the real original greeks in the time of persues ( he was egyptian though also)
Pelasgians stretched all the way to Paeonians plains which would definitely include J-L283 at that time. And they also existed at the time acleus, son of amphytron and alcmene (also of egyptian decent) who took the name after The original Egyptian heracles. He existed around 1300 BC and these samples are older than that.

Maybe e1b came from ancient egypt thats why they show up more later.

The only island which was part owned by Argos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palagruža

Spartans did control Taranto on the Italian heel for a long time ......constantly at war against their neighbours the messapics

Galaxy Overlord · Dec 9, 2022

So will all of the southern route theory people concede that J-L283 came from north of black sea when the Moldovan sample comes out?

mount123 · Dec 14, 2022

Galaxy Overlord said:
So will all of the southern route theory people concede that J-L283 came from north of black sea when the Moldovan sample comes out?

Looking at the phylogeny of the so far 87 aDNA J2b-L283 samples nothing but a North to South migration was ever possible. Neither does the autosomal DNA support anything but a North to South migration. And all of this was evident since we had our very first J2b-L283, a little boy ID I4331 buried in Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia, 1600 BCE. Underneath is a list of 78 aDNA samples from the Western Balkans, Italy, Mediterranean. I have added 3 low coverage J2b (they are more than highly likely L283), the 4 Mygdalia and the 2 Pannonian Cemeteries samples.

Sample (n=78)	Site	Date	YDNA
ID I18712	HRV_BA, D. Ostrvica-Pasičine, Croatia	2500-800 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID MOK15	Maros EBA, Mokrin Necropolis, Serbia	2100-1800 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615
ID I18746	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I18747	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I19029	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>Z600>?
ID I11843	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I19032	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I19025	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I18088	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I19031	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I19026	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I18748	HRV_BA, Bogomolje, Croatia	1900-1600 BCE (~1750 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I8471	ALB_Cetina_MBA, Shkrel Shkodër, Malësia e Madhe, Albania	1880-1695 BCE (~1788 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I5080	HRV_BA, Zavojane-Ravca, Velika Gomila, Croatia	1743-1623 BCE (~1683 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID I5073	HRV_BA, Koprivno, Croatia	1732-1542 BCE (~1637 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I4331	HRV_EMBA, Veliki Vanik, Croatia	1631-1521 BCE (~1576 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID MYG001	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG008	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG006	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG005	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I26726	HRV_MBA, Gudnja cave, Croatia	1507-1415 BCE (~1461 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I24345	HRV_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	1500-400 BCE (~950 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I5074	HRV_BA, Matkovici, Croatia	1497-1397 BCE (~1447 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID I13777	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
ID I13775	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
ID I14499	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2(b-L283?) 2nd or 3rd degree relative to I13777 and I13169 L283 samples)
ID I13169	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1407-1271 BCE (~1339 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I13778	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1386-1212 BCE (~1299 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I14498	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1300-1000 BCE (~1150 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID SAL001	Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy	1260–1048 BCE (~1142 BCE)	J2b-L283?
ID ORC003	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1250 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157
ID ORC007	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1248 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>?
ID I10553	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	1226-1056 BCE (~1155 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157
ID I13167	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1216-1052 BCE (~1134 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
ID ORC008	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1095 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>?
ID NEO806	Italy_BronzeAge, Grotta Delle Mura, Apulia , Italy	~1063 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
ID I23911	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	891-797 BCE (~844 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I23995	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	810-675 BCE (~743 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I26742	HRV_EIA, Jazinka Cave, Croatia	800-600 BCE (~700 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I24639	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	795-567 BCE (~681 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I24638	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	795-567 BCE (~681 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I5691	Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, Slovenia	787-544 BCE (~666 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I24882	HRV_EIA, Mala Metaljka, Croatia	774-549 BCE (~662 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID R474	Iron Age/Roman Republic - Etruscan, Civitavecchia, Italy	700-600 BCE (~650 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y45181
ID I17633	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	700-400 BCE (~550 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I16253	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	658-403 BCE (~531 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y37121
ID I16254	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	600-400 BCE (~500 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I22940	Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, Slovenia	600-350 BCE (~475 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID R11751	CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia	~569 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602
ID R11753	CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia	~531 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID CSN004	Casenovole (Grosseto, Tuscany), Italy	530-200 BCE (~365 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>?
ID I5723	HRV_IA, Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia	514-391 BCE (~453 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586
ID SAL010	Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy	500 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I18831	HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	500-1 BCE (~250 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I18830	HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	500-1 BCE (~250 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602
ID ORD014	Daunian_IA, Herdonia (modern Ordona), Italy	~489 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I4998	Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, Kápolnadomb, Gór, Hungary	391-208 BCE (~300 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>BY161113>BY162321
ID R116	Roman Era, Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria), Italy	1 CE - 200 CE (~100 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631
ID R9669	Late Antiquity, Viminacium, Serbia	129.5-310.5 CE (~220 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364(xBY37860)
ID R3481	Late Antiquity, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro	211-320.5 CE (~266 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID R6693	Late Antiquity, Sviloš-Kruševlje, Serbia	236.0-331.5 CE (~284 CE)	J2b-L283>Z600>Z585>?
ID R2040	Late Antiquity, Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia	245-402 CE (~323 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>Y263344>FT108131
ID I15546	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>?
ID I15548	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID I15547	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>?
ID R3543	Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia	431-600.5 CE (~516 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>FTA60432>FTA61140
ID R3544	Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia	549.5-600.5 CE (~575 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>FGC55778>FT212328
ID Hacs_24	Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary	600-500 CE (~550 CE )	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID Hacs_10	Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary	600-500 CE (~550 CE)	J2b-L283>?
ID VEN006	Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy	650-763 CE (~686 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507>?
ID ALT-77 / ERS9945038	Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle, Alattyán-Tulát, Hungary	~648 CE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>Y32373>FT33245
ID VEN013	Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy	670-775 CE (~757 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>PH1602>Y86930
ID VPB-307 / ERS9945291	Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite, Vörs-Papkert B, Hungary	~800 CE	J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP61>YP29>YP181
ID SP-2 / ERS9945222	Hungary_Conq_Elite, Sárrétudvari-Poroshalom, Hungary	~950 CE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y27522>Y23097
ID R9918	Early Medieval, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro	996.5-1150.5 CE (~1073 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y272857
ID R54	Medieval, Villa Magna, Italy	1280-1430 CE (~1355 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y23094
ID I15707	Albania_PostMdv, Bardhoc, Albania	1472-1632 CE (~1552 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631

Galaxy Overlord · Dec 23, 2022

any news gents?

torzio · Dec 23, 2022

Galaxy Overlord said:
any news gents?

it is part of the inner core on map below .................the other area is the areas where there people traded to

Galaxy Overlord · Dec 24, 2022

Research fund for those who aren't aware:

https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283-christmas-2022-wgs-upgrade-wish-list/

J2b-L283 Hunter Provyn update video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=277JV-hiwwM&t=1405s&ab_channel=HunterProvyn

torzio · Dec 24, 2022

mount123 said:
Looking at the phylogeny of the so far 87 aDNA J2b-L283 samples nothing but a North to South migration was ever possible. Neither does the autosomal DNA support anything but a North to South migration. And all of this was evident since we had our very first J2b-L283, a little boy ID I4331 buried in Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia, 1600 BCE. Underneath is a list of 78 aDNA samples from the Western Balkans, Italy, Mediterranean. I have added 3 low coverage J2b (they are more than highly likely L283), the 4 Mygdalia and the 2 Pannonian Cemeteries samples.

Sample (n=78) Site Date YDNA
ID I18712 HRV_BA, D. Ostrvica-Pasičine, Croatia 2500-800 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID MOK15 Maros EBA, Mokrin Necropolis, Serbia 2100-1800 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615
ID I18746 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

ID I18747 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I19029 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>Z600>?
ID I11843 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I19032 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I19025 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>?
ID I18088 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>?
ID I19031 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283?
ID I19026 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283?
ID I18748

HRV_BA, Bogomolje, Croatia

1900-1600 BCE (~1750 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I8471 ALB_Cetina_MBA, Shkrel Shkodër, Malësia e Madhe, Albania 1880-1695 BCE (~1788 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

ID I5080

HRV_BA, Zavojane-Ravca, Velika Gomila, Croatia

1743-1623 BCE (~1683 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

ID I5073 HRV_BA, Koprivno, Croatia

1732-1542 BCE (~1637 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

ID I4331

HRV_EMBA, Veliki Vanik, Croatia

1631-1521 BCE (~1576 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

ID MYG001

MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

J2b-L283>?

ID MYG008

MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

J2b-L283>?

ID MYG006

MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

J2b-L283>?

ID MYG005

MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

J2b-L283>?

ID I26726

HRV_MBA, Gudnja cave, Croatia 1507-1415 BCE (~1461 BCE)

J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

ID I24345

HRV_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia

1500-400 BCE (~950 BCE) J2b-L283>?
ID I5074

HRV_BA, Matkovici, Croatia 1497-1397 BCE (~1447 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

ID I13777

MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

ID I13775

MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

ID I14499 MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE) J2(b-L283?) 2nd or 3rd degree relative to I13777 and I13169 L283 samples)
ID I13169

MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1407-1271 BCE (~1339 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

ID I13778

MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1386-1212 BCE (~1299 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

ID I14498

MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1300-1000 BCE (~1150 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

ID SAL001

Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy

1260–1048 BCE (~1142 BCE) J2b-L283?
ID ORC003

Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy ~1250 BCE

J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157

ID ORC007

Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy ~1248 BCE J2b-L283>Z622>?

ID I10553

Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy

1226-1056 BCE (~1155 BCE) J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157

ID I13167

MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1216-1052 BCE (~1134 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

ID ORC008

Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy ~1095 BCE J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>?

ID NEO806

Italy_BronzeAge, Grotta Delle Mura, Apulia , Italy

~1063 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

ID I23911

HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 891-797 BCE (~844 BCE)

J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

ID I23995

HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 810-675 BCE (~743 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

ID I26742

HRV_EIA, Jazinka Cave, Croatia 800-600 BCE (~700 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

ID I24639

HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 795-567 BCE (~681 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

ID I24638

HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 795-567 BCE (~681 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

ID I5691

Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, Slovenia

787-544 BCE (~666 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

ID I24882

HRV_EIA, Mala Metaljka, Croatia

774-549 BCE (~662 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

ID R474

Iron Age/Roman Republic - Etruscan, Civitavecchia, Italy

700-600 BCE (~650 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y45181

ID I17633

ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania

700-400 BCE (~550 BCE) J2b-L283>?
ID I16253

ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania

658-403 BCE (~531 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y37121

ID I16254

ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania

600-400 BCE (~500 BCE) J2b-L283>?

ID I22940

Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, Slovenia

600-350 BCE (~475 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

ID R11751

CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia

~569 BCE

J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602

ID R11753

CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia

~531 BCE

J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

ID CSN004

Casenovole (Grosseto, Tuscany), Italy

530-200 BCE (~365 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>?

ID I5723

HRV_IA, Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia

514-391 BCE (~453 BCE) J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586

ID SAL010 Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy

500 BCE J2b-L283?
ID I18831

HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia

500-1 BCE (~250 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

ID I18830

HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia

500-1 BCE (~250 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602

ID ORD014 Daunian_IA, Herdonia (modern Ordona), Italy

~489 BCE J2b-L283>?
ID I4998

Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, Kápolnadomb, Gór, Hungary

391-208 BCE (~300 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>BY161113>BY162321

ID R116

Roman Era, Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria), Italy

1 CE - 200 CE (~100 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631

ID R9669

Late Antiquity, Viminacium, Serbia

129.5-310.5 CE (~220 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364(xBY37860)

ID R3481

Late Antiquity, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro

211-320.5 CE (~266 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043

ID R6693

Late Antiquity, Sviloš-Kruševlje, Serbia

236.0-331.5 CE (~284 CE) J2b-L283>Z600>Z585>?
ID R2040

Late Antiquity, Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia

245-402 CE (~323 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>Y263344>FT108131

ID I15546

Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia

380–410 CE (~395 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>?

ID I15548 Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia

380–410 CE (~395 CE)

J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043

ID I15547

Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia 380–410 CE (~395 CE)

J2b-L283>?

ID R3543

Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia

431-600.5 CE (~516 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>FTA60432>FTA61140

ID R3544

Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia 549.5-600.5 CE (~575 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>FGC55778>FT212328

ID Hacs_24 Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary 600-500 CE (~550 CE ) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID Hacs_10 Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary 600-500 CE (~550 CE) J2b-L283>?
ID VEN006

Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy

650-763 CE (~686 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507>?

ID ALT-77 / ERS9945038

Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle, Alattyán-Tulát, Hungary

~648 CE

J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>Y32373>FT33245

ID VEN013

Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy

670-775 CE (~757 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>PH1602>Y86930

ID VPB-307 / ERS9945291

Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite, Vörs-Papkert B, Hungary

~800 CE

J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP61>YP29>YP181

ID SP-2 / ERS9945222

Hungary_Conq_Elite, Sárrétudvari-Poroshalom, Hungary

~950 CE

J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y27522>Y23097

ID R9918

Early Medieval, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro

996.5-1150.5 CE (~1073 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y272857

ID R54

Medieval, Villa Magna, Italy

1280-1430 CE (~1355 CE)

J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y23094

ID I15707

Albania_PostMdv, Bardhoc, Albania

1472-1632 CE (~1552 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631

which of these samples belong to the same family tree...that is, from the same family ?

mount123 · Dec 26, 2022

Galaxy Overlord said:
any news gents?

Yes, Trojet has analyzed the Mygdalia samples and they are J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597):

ID MYG001	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)	https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
ID MYG008	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)	https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
ID MYG006	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)	https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
ID MYG005	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)	https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216

PaleoRevenge · Dec 27, 2022

Besides the Mygdalia series, there are 3 other individuals that are autosomally Illyrian derived, though pretty much all have admixed with the locals.

Wanderer · Dec 28, 2022

PaleoRevenge said:
Besides the Mygdalia series, there are 3 other individuals that are autosomally Illyrian derived, though pretty much all have admixed with the locals.

Mygd 005 has no cetina culture admixture it looks but it is J-L283.
What is MNE?

Wanderer · Dec 28, 2022

Are they decendants of MOK 15? It appears so.
Means a migration from serbia down to greece

Means we should find ancient J-L283 eventually also probably in lands between serbia and greece between 2000BC and 1500 BC. J-L283 would probably migrate to albania during this time and also into some parts of macadonia and kosovo.

PaleoRevenge · Dec 28, 2022

Wanderer said:
Mygd 005 has no cetina culture admixture it looks but it is J-L283.
What is MNE?

Montenegro late bronze age. MNE is Cetina but frontier Cetina, it is quite mixed with a population that resembles MKD groups, which during BA occupied much of Albania. In BA collapse, these groups get booted into Italy and Greece, and Illyrian territorial space grows.

torzio · Dec 28, 2022

Wanderer said:
Mygd 005 has no cetina culture admixture it looks but it is J-L283.
What is MNE?

Velika Gruda in Montenegro

it originates from

Illyricum_Pannonia_Savia

some believe pannonians are Illyrians and some do not

torzio · Dec 28, 2022

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia_Savia

Wanderer · Dec 29, 2022

torzio said:
Velika Gruda in Montenegro

it originates from

Illyricum_Pannonia_Savia

some believe pannonians are Illyrians and some do not

They are, they are J-L283.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Pannonian_tribes

Southern Makadonian illyrians?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynteni

Pirustae
Edit
The Pirustae or Pyrissaei[91] (Ancient Greek: Πειροῦσται[92] or Πυρισσαῖοι)[62] were a Pannonian Illyrian[93] tribe that lived in modern Montenegro. According to some sources, they had also lived in territories outside of modern-day Montenegro, but the majority of archaeologists, including the famous British archaeologist Sir Arthur Evans, say that the Pirustae had lived in northern Montenegro, around present-day Pljevlja and that they were prominent miners. Their prominence in mining has been seen in epigraphic monuments from Dacia's mining regions.[94] Pirustae along with other Pannonians and Illyrians like the Sardeates were later settled in Dacia (modern-day Romania).[56][95]

Scirtari
Edit
The Scirtari or Scirtones were an Illyrian tribe.[53] The Scirtari were part of the Pirustae.[50] The Scirtari had 72 decuriae.

Glintidiones
Edit
The Glintidiones (Ancient Greek: Γλιντιδίωνες) were an Illyrian[96] tribe. The Glintidiones may have been part of the Pirustae.[50] The Glintidiones had 44 decuriae.

Ceraunii
Edit
Ceraunii (Ancient Greek: Κεραύνιοι, romanized: Keraunioi) was the name of an Illyrian tribe that lived close to the Pirustae[97] in modern Montenegro. The Ceraunii were part of the Pirustae.[50] They had 24 decuriae.[98] Their name seems to derive from the Greek word for 'thunderbolt'.[99]

torzio · Dec 29, 2022

Wanderer said:
They are, they are J-L283.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Pannonian_tribes
Southern Makadonian illyrians?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynteni

they seem to appear in the mountains of modern Montenegro

before some tribes moved to modern macedonia ...ie Enchelei ( eel people ) moved from coastal montengro to lake Ohrid macedonia circa 550BC

torzio · Dec 29, 2022

PIRUSTAE (Πιροῦσται, Ptol. 2.17.8; Πειροῦσται, Strab. vii. p.314), a people of Illyria, whom the Romans declared free of taxes, because they assisted the latter in subduing Gentius. (Liv. 45.26.) Strabo (l.c.) calls them a Pannonian people. Respecting the position of the Pirustae on the northern frontier of Dassaretia, see Vol. I. p. 755b.

mount123 · Dec 29, 2022

Wanderer said:
Are they decendants of MOK 15? It appears so.
Means a migration from serbia down to greece
...
Means we should find ancient J-L283 eventually also probably in lands between serbia and greece between 2000BC and 1500 BC. J-L283 would probably migrate to albania during this time and also into some parts of macadonia and kosovo.

EBA Cetina, which covers a wide territory, is a mostly contemporary to miniscule EBA Maros present Bronze Age culture. An outer Cetina influence on neighbouring BA complexes can seemingly also be possible for the occurrence of this MOK15 fella. Besides of course the possibility of it being some sort of remnant from an ancestral LCA entry group to the Northern Balkans. Z615 is ancestral to Z597 anyway and not some alien "decoupled" group as someone basically claimed.

We can also do the "reverse tracking" for this YP91+ aDNA sample:

ID I5723

HRV_IA, Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia

514-391 BCE (~453 BCE)

J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586

L283+, Z622+, FT185586+, Z627-, Z38462-

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247 https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB54831?show=reads

Given that we see paternal and autosomal continuity from Cetina-Dinaric-Classical Illyrians, who says the same cannot be applied for this YP91 IA Northern Croatian? A northern inland Cetina root seems very likely to me. Trojet has mentioned in an older post that the Sardinian "YP91" has no coverage for Z600 and given that all other samples are Z600 I think it is very likely that that is the case for ORC007 too. I have seen a lot of heated discussions in regards to YP91 and wanted to throw my two cents in here.

End of day such non logical "arguments“ could be made for prolific Y21045+ or other clades too. Given that we have a great diversity of subclades already attested in aDNA records and the pattern is very clear by now, it is rather best to assume that they are tied to the same cultural complexes as aforementioned EBA culture perfectly matches the key points in the phylogeny of L283.

mount123 · Dec 30, 2022

J2b-L283>Z1043 in aDNA record - deducing a likely Iron Age origin in the Western Balkans:

Sample (n=4)	Site	Date	YDNA	SNPs
ID R3481	Late Antiquity, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro	211-320.5 CE (~266 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043	Z1048/CTS9038+,Y161465-,BY200348-, Y183338-,Y105578-,Y26712-,PH1080-,FT212328-
ID I15548	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID R3544	Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia	549.5-600.5 CE (~575 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631 >Z1043>FGC55778>FT212328	Z636+,Z1048/CTS9038+,FGC55778+,FT212328+,Y146109-
ID Hacs_24	Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary	600-500 CE (~550 CE )	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043

Phylogeny: J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z8421>Z631>Z1043

1 Z1297 (ancestral to underneath and aforementioned subclades) has already been found in a Dinaric (l.p. Cetina) culture site in Dalmatia, Gudnja Cave MBA, Ston

8 Z1297(>Z1295) with one being confirmed to belong to namely Z1295>Y21878, a parallel branch to Z8421, ancestral to Z1043, in Montenegro, Velika Gruda LBA Dinaric (l.p. Cetina)/ Early Glasinac Mati Tumuli, very much talked about "Illyrii Proprie Dicti" territory. Another one having been found in a LBA South East Italian sample from Grotta delle Mura. The south eastern most found Z1297>Z1295 is, too, Z1295>Y21878 though a clade under CTS11100, IA Cinamak (Kukës), Albania. Noteworthy is the regional continuity for CTS11100 which today is found among the Hoti tribe well represented in the Albanian Alps and Eastern Montenegro, a subclade under Y166564 namely FT124983.

4 Z1043 of which all are CE samples from the Balkans and Panonnia and 3 of them have a local autosomal DNA profile. The earliest Z1043 aDNA sample is from Doclea, Montenegro.

Western Balkan diversity:

J2b-L283>Z1043>Y22894

J2b-L283>Z1043>FT33373* (talked about in an article of Hunter Provyn linked some pages ago)

J2b-L283>Z1043>FTA62354

We have a territory for aDNA Z1297 attested subclades that span from Dalmatia, Ston, to North Eastern Albania, Kukës county and the West Adriatic, Monopoli. A likely Iron Age Eastern Glasinac Mati and therefore Western Balkan expansion for Z1043 seems to be thus far from both modern and ancient samples supported.

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