Central and South Asian DNA Paper

Olympus Mons said:
OMG!

I had already written about David Reich change of heart about PIE being from the South Caucasus. Now we know why.

“Andronovo pastoralists brought steppe ancestry to South Asia (Vagheesh et al. 2018 preprint)” is out and in the supplement there is a guy from Hajji Firuz in western Iran, that is a R1b-M269….by 5500bc(!). This means, in plain terms, OMG I was so right all along for all these years.

Let me talk about him, and why he is related to Shulaveri -Shomu in Armenia/Georgia. He was found in Hajji along side a couple J2b guys:
a. Both places have the oldest wine residue. So Shulaveri by 5800bc and here in Hajji 5500bc.
b. Both share the same pottery, specially the ones with “grapes” at the mouth.
c. Both settlements use tipical shulaveri circular mudbrick construction… and specially babies and women are buried under the floor in the same manner.
Its just a couple info. But to me it’s a glorious day. Indeed.
Click to expand...

Also interesting J2a in MLBA Steppes.
 
Angela said:
Nick Patterson interjects:

"Nick Patterson (Broad) said...@Lenny Dykstra:

I am extremely grateful to my South Asian collaborators
(and this goes for the whole Reich lab.); they are honest,
excellent scientists. There's a simple reason we have not
published on DNA from the IVC proper -- we have no useful DNA, and as you might guess this is not from lack of trying. "

Well, that's that.
Click to expand...

Wait, what does Lenny Dykstra the professional baseball player turned con man have to do with anything? I hope that's not just a random handle because it would just be too awesome if he has something to do with all of this.
 
Ygorcs said:
I see, but there is no reason to believe that the earliest PIE speakers must have come from BMAC civilization just because it was very advanced and sophisticated for its time. The earliest PIE tribes were probably not even that developed and sophistiated compared to others, so I see no necessary cultural link between them. If we had seen a huge IE expansion based mostly on refined urban civilizations and luxury trades, I'd take this much more seriously, but that isn't what the archaeological and linguistic records indicate.

Besides, the article in the link you provided refers to the Bronze Age Oxus civilization of Turkmenistan. In the Bronze Age the fully developed and in fact already diverging IE tribes were already spreading from Central Europe to Central Asia, and Anatolian speakers were already in Anatolia forming their kingdoms. There is no use in investigating Bronze Age features of cultures in Turkmenistan when we are discussing about the earliest formation of PIE still in the Neolithic age, probably earlier than 4,500 or even 5,000 BC, before Yamna, CWC and any other seemingly IE-speaking culture. What happens in Iran or in Turkmenistan before the earliest introgression of CHG and R1b in the steppes probably interests us, but that was at the latest around 4,000 BC.
Click to expand...

Iran and Turkmenistan are neighbouring countries and as we see from the aDNA data probably belonged to the same ancestry for most.
 
bicicleur said:
yes, that is what they say in the paper
their conclusion is that the bulk of steppe admixture arrived in India with steppe MLBA
Click to expand...

Yet I don't see where the proof is in their analysis for the conclusions they're drawing, at least not iron clad proof.

This whole set of samples from the Bronze Age only shows steppe MLBA in some analyses, not all. Also, the culture itself doesn't seem very "Indo-European" at all. The amount is much lower than in modern Northwest Indians as well. Maybe it's pseudo-steppe because of this West Siberian HG ancestry mixed with Iran Neo.

Then there's the R1a problem. Not one. Only one in the Iron Age. Yet look at all of it now.

Do you know of any other route they could have taken?
 
Maciamo said:
That's because the overwhelming majority of ancient DNA tested came from Europe, and because there were already lots of old and mostly extinct branches of R1b in Central and Eastern Europe from the Late Glacial period to the Mesolithic. Where are you going with that?
Click to expand...
Correct, just by looking at the sample size in this paper. Steppe samples alone are twice as many as samples from Iranian Plateau and South_Central Asia.

Every region outside the Steppes and Europe is very undersampled.
 
bicicleur said:
while R1b-P297 was observed in the Baltic area, and now also western Azerbaijan
Click to expand...

Agree, but the thing is, we had found signs of Iran_Neo/CHG admixture in these Baltic samples but no EHG admixture in NW Iran. This Hajji Firuz m269 sample might be the reason why the authors pointed that out to begin with.

NW Iran is pretty much in the sphere of Leyla Tepe influence. I always pointed out that the oldest Kurgans are found there.
 
Maciamo said:
Did you even read my work? In my history of R1b I postulated many years ago that R1b-M269 probably crossed over the Caucasus into the Pontic Steppe shortly before 5200 BCE because the first clearly Proto-Indo-European cultures were the Khvalynsk (5200-4500 BCE).

This migration map from 2009 shows R1b moving from the South Caucasus into the Steppe between 6000 and 5000 BCE. I wasn't sure where exactly was the source of R1b-M269 in the South Caucasus, so I added a ? next to Hassuna. No DNA from Hassuna has been tested yet, so it could still be related to Shulaveni-Shomu.

old_neolithic_map.gif


On the very first R1b migration map that I made in 2009 (see this link as I can't copy/paste Flash maps here) I wrote that R1b crossed the Caucasus c. 7000 ybp (5000 BCE), although my arrow shows that it crossed on the western side of the Caucasus toward Maykop, but then I changed my mind a few months later for the above map as I thought it would be more likely that R1b have crossed to the east along the Caspian (just a little detail, it doesn't change the course of history).

I also wrote that J2b2-L283 crossed the Caucasus at the same period and also become a PIE lineage. This was a simple deduction based on the fact that this haplogroup is about 6000 years old (according to Y-Full, but might be 7500 years old I think) and that it is found throughout Europe and South Asia, as well as in the South Caucasus from Eastern Anatolia to NW Iran (exactly the region where Neolithic R1b-M269 would have been found).
Click to expand...
back from holidays I can check things, simply what you say here is just the contrary that I read here from 2014

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-light-and-dark-pigmentation?highlight=araxes

On a side note, it is highly frustrating that this team of geneticists tested 63 samples from the Yamna and Catacomb and related cultures and did not test any Y-DNA at all ! This could prove once and for all that R1b people spread from the Pontic Steppe and not with Neolithic Near Eastern farmers as so many academic papers have claimed.
Click to expand...

I will try to find the discussion had with this issue
 
So does someone have an opinion on Darra.I.Kur_d from northern Afghanistan? The coverage is bad, but I've compared it with the samples in Olalde (2017) and it looks like if the assignment is correct this would be the oldest occurence of typically Western European R1b (L151). That can't be right, no?

The mtdna is H2a, which looks like it is associated with the Bronze Age in Europe.
 
markozd said:
So does someone have an opinion on Darra.I.Kur_d from northern Afghanistan? The coverage is bad, but I've compared it with the samples in Olalde (2017) and it looks like if the assignment is correct this would be the oldest occurence of typically Western European R1b (L151). That can't be right, no?
Click to expand...

This is one person's opinion:

" Originally Posted by Megalophias
I've gone through some of the suspect haplogroups:

There are 6 Gonur Tepe and 1 Swat Iron Age samples listed as A. As far as I can tell these are just super low coverage samples with no haplogroup assignment, they do not have any derived calls for A(xBT) clades or ancestral calls for BT or CT.

- I2312 - Belt Cave Iran Mesolithic - listed as E1b1a1a1c2b1 - very unlikely. It has one derived allele for this, contradicted by 1 ancestral E1b1a1. It is some kind of BT. J, as at Hotu next door, is not excluded.
- I6119 - Gonur Tepe BMAC - listed as E1b1a1a1c2c3c - definitely not, it has 5 ancestral calls for E. It is CT(xC, E, G, J, R), with single ancestral calls also for D, H1a1, L1, Q1b. Perhaps T?
- I1992 - Swat Iron Age - listed as E1a-M132 - very unlikely, it has 4 ancestral calls and only 1 derived call for E1a. It is E, with 3 derived calls. E1b1b1b2-Z830, which is the majority at this site, is not excluded.
- I8998 - Swat Iron Age - listed as R1b-S21782 (under U106) - definitely not, it has dozens of upstream calls contradicting this. It is R(xR1, R2a), probably R2* (found in northern Pakistan today).
- Darra-i-Kur - Afghanistan EBA - listed as R1b-P311. Low coverage, there is one positive call for the SNP, nothing + or - upstream. This is some kind of BT.
- I1003 - Sintashta - listed as I2a1a1a - seems not, as it has 1 ancestral IJ call, 3 ancestral and 1 derived for I, 1 derived R. Looks like R(xR1b1a), so probably the usual R1a.
- I8527 - Geoksyur - listed as I2a2a2a - unlikely, there is 1 positive call, but 1 ancestral call for I2a2. Some kind of F."
 
1. In the map, european cline is EEF and CWC, but indian cline is ANI and ASI.
So which cline is the steppe people except CWC?

2. Why did they not use the lake bikal R1a?


yamna-expansion.jpg


Capture.png
 
Maciamo said:
We don't have any ancient Y-DNA from the North Caucasus (e.g. Maykop) yet. Anyway I always said that R1b-M269 originated south of the Caucasus and crossed north between 6000 and 5000 BCE (most probably as R1b-L23 and some of its subclades).Who on this forum expected R1b-M269 to have originated in the North Caucasus?
Click to expand...
But you were labeling haplogroups 'European' and 'Middle Eastern' based on their modern frequencies and you were associating R1b or R1 in general with blondness. Do you remember that?
 
johen said:
1. In the map, european cline is EEF and CWC, but indian cline is ANI and ASI.
So which cline is the steppe people except CWC?

2. Why did they not use the lake bikal R1a?
Click to expand...
according to the paper, steppe EMBA/yamnaya was a mix of khvalynsk and the 'Iran chl cline'
 
Sile said:
ycalls
I1781 T T-M272 T-M184

is genetically related to

I6117 A A A

as per paper ............makesno sense ...unless I6117 is contaminated
Click to expand...
It's not contaminated, there are no A clade calls, it's just extremely low coverage. I'm not sure why the samples with no haplogroup assigned are labelled as A, though technically all modern human DNA is haplogroup A. I6117 probably does have T, well spotted.
 
Maciamo said:
... Anyway I always said that R1b-M269 originated south of the Caucasus and crossed north between 6000 and 5000 BCE (most probably as R1b-L23 and some of its subclades).
Click to expand...
Maciamo. Lets settle this once and for all. Point me to where you say that!

(it felt pretty lonely this last 3 years talking about Shulaveri, 4900 bc, Mesokho, kuban river, samara river etc.)
 
Angela said:
Yet I don't see where the proof is in their analysis for the conclusions they're drawing, at least not iron clad proof.

This whole set of samples from the Bronze Age only shows steppe MLBA in some analyses, not all. Also, the culture itself doesn't seem very "Indo-European" at all. The amount is much lower than in modern Northwest Indians as well. Maybe it's pseudo-steppe because of this West Siberian HG ancestry mixed with Iran Neo.

Then there's the R1a problem. Not one. Only one in the Iron Age. Yet look at all of it now.

Do you know of any other route they could have taken?
Click to expand...

no, I don't know any other route, but this is what the paper says :

Second, samples from three sites from the southern and eastern end of the Steppe dated to 1600-
353 1500 BCE (Dashti-kozy, Taldysay and Kyzlbulak) show evidence of significant admixture from
354 Iranian agriculturalist-related populations, demonstrating northward gene flow from Turan into
355 the Steppe at the same time as there was southward movement of Steppe_MLBA ancestry
356 through Turan and into South Asia. These findings are consistent with evidence of a high degree
357 of human mobility both to the north and south along the Inner Asian Mountain Corridor (32, 33).
358
359 Third, we observe samples from multiple sites dated to 1700-1500 BCE (Maitan, Kairan,
360 Oy_Dzhaylau and Zevakinsikiy) that derive up to ~25% of their ancestry from a source related to
361 present-day East Asians and the remainder from Steppe_MLBA. A similar ancestry profile
362 became widespread in the region by the Late Bronze Age, as documented by our time transect
363 from Zevakinsikiy and samples from many sites dating to 1500-1000 BCE, and was ubiquitous
364 by the Scytho-Sarmatian period in the Iron Age (34). This observation decreases the probability
that populations in the 1st millennium BCE and 1 365 st millennium CE—including Scythians,
peer-reviewed) is the author/funder. It is made available under a CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0 International license.
bioRxiv preprint first posted online Mar. 31, 2018; doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/292581. The copyright holder for this preprint (which was not
12
366 Kushans, and Huns, sometimes suggested as sources for the Steppe ancestry influences in South
367 Asia today (17)—contributed to the majority of South Asians, which have negligible East Asian
368 ancestry in our analysis. It is possible that there were unsampled groups in Central Asia with
369 negligible East Asian admixture that could have migrated later to South Asia. However, at least
370 some (possibly all) of the Steppe pastoralist ancestry in South Asia owes its origins to southward
pulses in the 2 371 nd millennium BCE, as indeed we prove directly through our observation of this
372 ancestry in the Swat Iron Age individuals dating to ~1000 BCE (discussed further below).

so, either there are unsampled R1a steppe MLBA en route toward south Asia
or there are unsampled R1a Scyths without East Asian admixture that made their way to South Asia
 
Angela said:
This is one person's opinion:

- I2312 - Belt Cave Iran Mesolithic - listed as E1b1a1a1c2b1 - very unlikely. It has one derived allele for this, contradicted by 1 ancestral E1b1a1. It is some kind of BT. J, as at Hotu next door, is not excluded.
- I6119 - Gonur Tepe BMAC - listed as E1b1a1a1c2c3c - definitely not, it has 5 ancestral calls for E. It is CT(xC, E, G, J, R), with single ancestral calls also for D, H1a1, L1, Q1b. Perhaps T?
- I1992 - Swat Iron Age - listed as E1a-M132 - very unlikely, it has 4 ancestral calls and only 1 derived call for E1a. It is E, with 3 derived calls. E1b1b1b2-Z830, which is the majority at this site, is not excluded.
- I8998 - Swat Iron Age - listed as R1b-S21782 (under U106) - definitely not, it has dozens of upstream calls contradicting this. It is R(xR1, R2a), probably R2* (found in northern Pakistan today).
- Darra-i-Kur - Afghanistan EBA - listed as R1b-P311. Low coverage, there is one positive call for the SNP, nothing + or - upstream. This is some kind of BT.
- I1003 - Sintashta - listed as I2a1a1a - seems not, as it has 1 ancestral IJ call, 3 ancestral and 1 derived for I, 1 derived R. Looks like R(xR1b1a), so probably the usual R1a.
- I8527 - Geoksyur - listed as I2a2a2a - unlikely, there is 1 positive call, but 1 ancestral call for I2a2. Some kind of F."
Click to expand...

Thanks! Perhaps the authors just listed those low coverage samples as belonging to whatever the last positive call was that their software gave them. A bit misleading, but then again those samples can easily be ignored.
 
What of the Indo Aryan speaking groups in the Kingdom of Mittani in the Levant ? what migration path did they take ?

Late Bronze Age Canaanites from Megiddo should be a mixture of Levant EBA + Armenia MLBA (source), the Armenian admixing population should be the Hurrians.

The Hurrians had connections to Indo-Aryan speakers, Armenia MLBA is different from the preceding Early Bronze Age in having a larger portion of ancestry from the EHG, so my theory is Steppe populations moved to south Caucasus and admixed genetically and culturally with the Hurrian population there, and then migrated to the Levant.
 
IronSide said:
What of the Indo Aryan speaking groups in the Kingdom of Mittani in the Levant ? what migration path did they take ?
Late Bronze Age Canaanites from Megiddo should be a mixture of Levant EBA + Armenia MLBA (source), the Armenian admixing population should be the Hurrians.
The Hurrians had connections to Indo-Aryan speakers, Armenia MLBA is different from the preceding Early Bronze Age in having a larger portion of ancestry from the EHG, so my theory is Steppe populations moved to south Caucasus and admixed genetically and culturally with the Hurrian population there, and then migrated to the Levant.
Click to expand...
afaik the Mittani didn't speak IE, but there is a text about horse training for charriot warfare translated from Mittani into Hittite in which some technical terms are not translated, and these technical terms are Indo Aryan

this means that charriots and horses were introduced to the Mittani by a few Indo-Aryan people, probably an offshoot of those MLBA steppe people in the BMAC area, who instead of going further south got in contact with the Mittani court
these few people need not have left a detectable genetic mark in the Levant

there is no convincing evidence that the Hittites or the Egyptians had charriots before the Mittani got them
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 288148 times.

Back
Top