Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

Y-haplogroups are passed from father to son, without recombination with the mother's DNA. Only mutations can change that part of the DNA, so if two people have the same Y-haplogroup they come from a single male ancestor along the paternal line. On the other hand mt-DNA is passed from mother to child, so it goes through the female line, unchanged except for mutations. People with the same mtDNA have one female line ancestor in common, the mother of their mother's mother's mother's...... mother.

Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups aren't usually in pairs because for the most part men stayed with their tribes, while women relocated to their husband's tribe/territory. That is why Y-haplogroups are more reliable for understanding migrations of tribes or cultural groups (linguistic, religious, etc), rather than just individual movements due to marriage arrangements.

As for Albanian Y-Haplogroups, they aren't as diverse as you think. There's R1b and J2b2, who most likely brought the indo-european language that later developed into Albanian, and there's E-v13, which seems to have expanded into the Balkans earlier. These three account for more than 70%. Together with G2a, and J1a in Greece, they probably made up most of the ancient populations of Southeastern Europe, who also did not belong to single haplogroups but different combinations of the ones I mentioned.

You mentioned the Dacians: we don't know for sure yet, but it is likely that they had much more R1a and I2a than the more south westerpopulations such as the Greeks and Albanians.

Dacians could not have had much R1a as the romans resettled thousands of them into western balkans from the time of gothic push into dacia............they would have had R1b more so than R1a

Same with Goths........if they had R1a , we would see far more R1a where goths settled, western balkans, italy, south france, spain, western north africa , but we do not see this..........so to conclude , both dacians and goths would have had more R1b than R1a ( when we look at only these 2 haplogroups )
 
Dacians could not have had much R1a as the romans resettled thousands of them into western balkans from the time of gothic push into dacia............they would have had R1b more so than R1a

Same with Goths........if they had R1a , we would see far more R1a where goths settled, western balkans, italy, south france, spain, western north africa , but we do not see this..........so to conclude , both dacians and goths would have had more R1b than R1a ( when we look at only these 2 haplogroups )

Where did I say they had more R1a than R1b? I just said they had more R1a and I2a than more southwestern peoples. I think you can't disagree with that.
 
Y-haplogroups are passed from father to son, without recombination with the mother's DNA. Only mutations can change that part of the DNA, so if two people have the same Y-haplogroup they come from a single male ancestor along the paternal line. On the other hand mt-DNA is passed from mother to child, so it goes through the female line, unchanged except for mutations. People with the same mtDNA have one female line ancestor in common, the mother of their mother's mother's mother's...... mother.

Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups aren't usually in pairs because for the most part men stayed with their tribes, while women relocated to their husband's tribe/territory. That is why Y-haplogroups are more reliable for understanding migrations of tribes or cultural groups (linguistic, religious, etc), rather than just individual movements due to marriage arrangements.

As for Albanian Y-Haplogroups, they aren't as diverse as you think. There's R1b and J2b2, who most likely brought the indo-european language that later developed into Albanian, and there's E-v13, which seems to have expanded into the Balkans earlier. These three account for more than 70%. Together with G2a, and J2a in Greece, they probably made up most of the ancient populations of Southeastern Europe, who also did not belong to single haplogroups but different combinations of the ones I mentioned.

You mentioned the Dacians: we don't know for sure yet, but it is likely that they had much more R1a and I2a than the more south western populations such as the Greeks and Albanians.

oh man thank you for the explanation, I actually new the trasmission ,mather mt, father Y, in fact i tested and resulted R1b, the part I didn't understand , that u explained me too, was why mother and father don't coincide, ah, what mt-dna do albanians have just for knowledge, with who we have it in common?Thx.
 
oh man thank you for the explanation, I actually new the trasmission ,mather mt, father Y, in fact i tested and resulted R1b, the part I didn't understand , that u explained me too, was why mother and father don't coincide, ah, what mt-dna do albanians have just for knowledge, with who we have it in common?Thx.

Mate you don't even know the most entry level basic things about albanian genetics and yet you came in here with entirely foundational theories about Albanian ethnogenesis?

Go do some personal research. Use GOOGLE (it exists you know), go through eupedia posts, their mtdna lists.

Stop asking people to spoonfeed you every personal answer and stop forming theories after reading posts on slav forums if you don't even know basic things like haplgroups and haplotypes.
 
Ok so i've just begun looking through the document and already this is interesting to me:

"Linguistic arguments on the prehistory of the Albanians§1) On the Autochtonous hypothesis


According to the autochthonous hypothesis, the modern Albanians are supposed to be in their present day
Residences (Albania, Kosova) formed in a linear way from the ancient Illyrians
to have. The Albanian language is used here as a modern continuation of the ancient Illyrian
considered. In support of this hypothesis, various arguments in the
Discussion introduced: (see also the literature in the appendix)
(a) Foreign language arguments:
• Archeology, soil finds (continuity is postulated by Albanian archeology)
Meanwhile, in modern archeology, the knowledge that finds are not without
further with language (s) are linkable. Similarly, find continuity or settlement continuity
not necessarily a linguistic continuity, or indicate linguistic unity.
One language can be spread across several cultures, as well as one culture with several
Languages ​​can be connected. Immigrants can become a culture without apparent break
also take over. Also, artifacts are mute (unless they are inscription bearers!).
• Socio-cultural factors
Clothing, social and legal practices and music can also be continuous
Phenomena, however, they are as 'fashions' according to the required circumstances as well
Are subject to change and are therefore altogether among the expressions in which
there is a variety of exchanges and takeovers (borrowings)."


DNA evidence is absent from their considerations.
 
Ok so i've just begun looking through the document and already this is interesting to me:

"Linguistic arguments on the prehistory of the Albanians§1) On the Autochtonous hypothesis


According to the autochthonous hypothesis, the modern Albanians are supposed to be in their present day
Residences (Albania, Kosova) formed in a linear way from the ancient Illyrians
to have. The Albanian language is used here as a modern continuation of the ancient Illyrian
considered. In support of this hypothesis, various arguments in the
Discussion introduced: (see also the literature in the appendix)
(a) Foreign language arguments:
• Archeology, soil finds (continuity is postulated by Albanian archeology)
Meanwhile, in modern archeology, the knowledge that finds are not without
further with language (s) are linkable. Similarly, find continuity or settlement continuity
not necessarily a linguistic continuity, or indicate linguistic unity.
One language can be spread across several cultures, as well as one culture with several
Languages ​​can be connected. Immigrants can become a culture without apparent break
also take over. Also, artifacts are mute (unless they are inscription bearers!).
• Socio-cultural factors
Clothing, social and legal practices and music can also be continuous
Phenomena, however, they are as 'fashions' according to the required circumstances as well
Are subject to change and are therefore altogether among the expressions in which
there is a variety of exchanges and takeovers (borrowings)."


DNA evidence is absent from their considerations.

Yes, the author contends that based on the linguistic evidence that both a Thracian and an Illyrian origin for Albanian can be excluded. He notes that there exist similarities with Messapic, another old Balkan language that was spoken in southern Italy at one point.
 
Yes, the author contends that based on the linguistic evidence that both a Thracian and an Illyrian origin for Albanian can be excluded. He notes that there exist similarities with Messapic, another old Balkan language that was spoken in southern Italy at one point.


Interesting since messapian is considered an Illyrian language by many. What does he consider it if not an Illyrian language?



And if they took DNA evidence into consideration (the Auplia region of italy has more similar haplogroups with Albanians) then it would would make things clearer (pic below).

Here I've marked in red the main 3 albanian haplogroups.

RGGwtbq.png
 
I am interested, it will be very helpful and i really appreciate your readiness. Thanks in advance.

I share the same sentiment here, would be greatly appreciated.
 
Interesting since messapian is considered an Illyrian language by many. What does he consider it if not an Illyrian language?



And if they took DNA evidence into consideration (the Auplia region of italy has more similar haplogroups with Albanians) then it would would make things clearer (pic below).

Here I've marked in red the main 3 albanian haplogroups.

RGGwtbq.png

The evidence is scarce, but Matzinger brings up the possibility of a Paleo-Balkanic macrogroup that includes Illyrian, Phrygian, Greek & Messapian and, of course, modern Albanian. Within this family Albanian seems to be closest to Messapian, but there is too little evidence to say that there's a direct descent. He places the homeland of the proto-Albanians in Moesia Superior & Dardania (so southern Serbia and Kosovo) due to the relative lack of early Greek influence in Albanian, which was strong in the regions of present day Bosnia, Dalmatia.

For the southern expansion Matzinger proposes a date after Christianisation & increasing Roman influence. The early Christian Albanians had a pastoral economy and ousted the pagan, agricultural Slavs whom they encountered in the coastal regions. This is reminds me of what Matasovic said about the interaction between Albanian & Slavic - Albanian borrowed words pertaining to industry and agriculture from Slavic, while Slavic borrowed words pertaining martial values and family relations from Albanian.

Edit: I'll translate the conclusion of the paper later this evening.
 
The evidence is scarce, but Matzinger brings up the possibility of a Paleo-Balkanic macrogroup that includes Illyrian, Phrygian, Greek & Messapian and, of course, modern Albanian. Within this family Albanian seems to be closest to Messapian, but there is too little evidence to say that there's a direct descent. He places the homeland of the proto-Albanians in Moesia Superior & Dardania (so southern Serbia and Kosovo) due to the relative lack of early Greek influence in Albanian, which was strong in the regions of present day Bosnia, Dalmatia.

For the southern expansion Matzinger proposes a date after Christianisation & increasing Roman influence. The early Christian Albanians had a pastoral economy and ousted the pagan, agricultural Slavs whom they encountered in the coastal regions. This is reminds me of what Matasovic said about the interaction between Albanian & Slavic - Albanian borrowed words pertaining to industry and agriculture from Slavic, while Slavic borrowed words pertaining martial values and family relations from Albanian.

Edit: I'll translate the conclusion of the paper later this evening.


Thanks for this @markozd

The way this paper was presented in the media and used by certain nationalists totally doesn't represent what the authors seem to actually be arguing for.
 
Thanks for this @markozd

The way this paper was presented in the media and used by certain nationalists totally doesn't represent what the authors seem to actually be arguing for.

This paper was a strong argument that Albanians came from Crapi.....it seems that is far from that.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Ok guys, i have one thing to notice to you, I1 haplogroup.
For long time, even now it is still considered of gothic origin, but in my opinion it
can't just pass like this, for example: when E people came in the balkans in 20000 BC
what did they found? Nothing? It's inpossible in my opinion, they probably
found someone, and who they found would be the people who came in the european sub-
continent even before, the I people, now i would like precise that in all of this
what i am saying has nothing to do with the slavic claims about I2b
being the earliest in the balkan and how even jesus christ was
Serb and probably I2b.
What i am talking about is that when E people, proto ghegs or dardanians, came in
the Balkans they founded this I1 people, they absorbed them, and gave them
culture and language, so originally ghegs were E who assimilated I1 people

Now, about today: how is it possible then that I1-is so low, this could be explained
By E people, how? Just looking at the E albanian's subclades, we well know that aldo
There are quite a big amount of E subclades in the balkans
The most dominant among albanians, meaning almost the totality of E albanians have the
V-13 subclade, this could be explained this way: during the fall of the roman empire the
last gegs were enclosed in a small area of kosovo or northern albania, the other werw latinized
so they even lost traditons and combat abilities, that were conserved by these last gegs in the
mountains, who then expanded and took back quite fastly the equivalent of kosovo, montenegro and
north albania.
So what about I1 in all of this majority of the I1 people in kosovo and north albania were assimilated
in the way that their women were married by E-V13 albanians, this + the bottle nwck effect would push I1
near extintion, aldo autosomaly this thing would mak us score as northern europeans and you
have all the proofs to proove me wrong, there are some things that can't be just
coincidences:
1) if I1-is of gothic origin typically and logically we would have just one subclade of I1 but
we have 3.
2) some guys have done a haplogroup classifiation of northern albanians have shown up
by tests on the albanian "fis" from kosovo to montenegro to north albania that except from Ev-13,
J2b and R1b there has been found even clans with I1, ctually four clans if i remember well.
3) a study made by some albanian genetists has shown that we have a common genetic trait or something
like that ( soon i will post the source ) with scandinavians, this could be explaine by the assimilation
of I1 people by proto geg E people in paleolitic times.
And the I1 is mostly a feature of gegs rather yhen tosks.

At the end, of course one of these three subclades of I1
is of goyhic origin but the other two have of course to do
with my suggestions.

Have a nice day.
 

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