J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

AFAIK the ones being updated are from ancient samples. ORC007 is the Mokrin sample IIRC. The rest should be Nuragic, Etruscan and Roman. Also the Viking I mentioned in this thread.

Isn't ORC007 a Nuragic sample?


ORC007; 1285-1127 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic II_LBA
 
Isn't ORC007 a Nuragic sample?
ORC007; 1285-1127 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic II_LBA

You are correct. The three ORC's should be the Nuragic samples, if I am not mistaken again.

Furthermore they added these:
R474, Etruscan (700-600BCE): J-CTS6190

R116, Roman (0-200CE): J-Z631

R54, Abruzzo region (1280-1430CE): J-Y23094

Along with the Viking from the recent Study.
VK346, Viking (400-1100CE): J-Y36972


It unfortunately seems that among the ancient samples only Mokrin is missing...


Edited: (Cant really quote across forums and this was in Anthrogenica, so I did not quote the whole exchange:)
According to Trojet's reply to Johane it falls:


Johane:
Trojet's analysis of the oldest J2b-L283 in Europe so far:

"I analyzed the BAM file of the J2b from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.18.101337v1

Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in North Serbia

He is J2b-L283 >> Z615+ (Z584- Z2505-): https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

Male in burial 163, according to the paper: "At the opposite end of the status spectrum, a woman from the burial 181 was very likely the mother of the male in burial 163 and both were buried with grave goods indicative of higher social status (30). Since the male individual was an adult at the time of death, it remains unclear whether he inherited or acquired his status."



Trojet:
Thanks for this dedicated J-L283 thread at Anthrogenica. I'll try to post important updates here as well.
I also checked the Novel SNPs of the two modern J-Z615* samples. I only got negative results, so this ancient sample remains at J-Z615* and lived around 1000 years after this mutation formed (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/).

The downstream branch, J-Z597 (TMRCA 4400 ybp), looks pretty western Balkan, so it likely moved further west around the time this Mokrin sample lived. We already have I4331, dated ~3600 ybp, from southern Croatia which was J-Z597>Z2507>Y15058. And recently a BigY tester with origin from Krk, Croatia, tested Y146400+ FGC64027+ FGC64043-, which means he is splitting YFull's J-Y146400 branch:
2hXqSDx.png

And since I can not find the sample on YFull I guess it has not been added yet.
 
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You are correct. The three ORC's should be the Nuragic samples, if I am not mistaken again.

Furthermore they added these:
R474, Etruscan (700-600BCE): J-CTS6190

R116, Roman (0-200CE): J-Z631

R54, Abruzzo region (1280-1430CE): J-Y23094

Along with the Viking from the recent Study.
VK346, Viking (400-1100CE): J-Y36972


It unfortunately seems that among the ancient samples only Mokrin is missing...

According to Trojet it falls:

"The downstream branch, J-Z597 (TMRCA 4400 ybp), looks pretty western Balkan, so it likely moved further west around the time this Mokrin sample lived. We already have I4331, dated ~3600 ybp, from southern Croatia which was J-Z597>Z2507>Y15058. And recently a BigY tester with origin from Krk, Croatia, tested Y146400+ FGC64027+ FGC64043-, which means he is splitting YFull's J-Y146400 branch:

2hXqSDx.png


"And since I can not find the sample/split on YFull I guess it has not been added yet.


Yes, I4331 (1631-1521 calBCE ,Y15058) seems quite upstream to R474 Etruscan (700-600BCE, J-CTS6190).


https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/


Do you know why I4331 has not been added to YFull?


@Trojet

Is accurate that
I4331 can be further assigned to J-Y15058>FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225) or at YFull’s J-Z38240 level?


https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/


J-Z38240

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/
 
Yes, I4331 (1631-1521 calBCE ,Y15058) seems quite upstream to R474 Etruscan (700-600BCE, J-CTS6190).
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/
Do you know why I4331 has not been added to YFull?

@Trojet
Is accurate that
I4331 can be further assigned to J-Y15058>FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225) or at YFull’s J-Z38240 level?

https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/

J-Z38240
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

Yes, that's correct. I4331 remains at YFull's J-Z38240* level, as he is also negative for the newly discovered subclade, J-BY161223.

It now seems YFull is adding ancient samples that aren't "shotgun sequenced" or not very high coverage, as is the case with the Nuragic/Sardinian samples. So I expect they will eventually add I4331 as well (or the samples from "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe"). They may not add the Mokrin J-Z615* sample until the relevant paper is published (it's currently in pre-print).
 
Single males ran through my family for five generations! My father died young and i had no opportunity to ask him about our ancestors. Days ago i got my results - I belong to J-L283 paternal haplogroup.

Thank you all for organizing and running things here; as a result i know myself more.

Looking forward to making my contributions.
 
Maybe but from which direction did they come from? And they didn't come as just pure e-v13. If they came from the north/germany it is possible they had i1 too

There is no way in hell E-V13 is from central Europe. All the ancient samples of E-V13 are autosomally southern European. ie: Neolithic farmer.
 
There is no way in hell E-V13 is from central Europe. All the ancient samples of E-V13 are autosomally southern European. ie: Neolithic farmer.

We have barely any ancient E-V13 sample. And every sample in Southern Europe is mostly Sardinian-like, like Myceneans etc etc etc. The diversity of E-V13 is not in Balkans, the split likely happened somewhere in Eastern Central Europe. They were still mostly Neolithic Farmer.
 
Hmm, I didn't pay attention to these Nuragics. I knew one was related to modern Sardinians but not that these Nuragics are all basals unrelated to each other... ORC007 is YP91, ORC008 J-Z600*, ORC003 and I10553 are J-YP157, Nuragics have more basal diversity than the entire Albania/Balkans + V.Vanik/Mokrin aDNA..

Mokrin result and modern spread shows that beginning with J-Z615* J-L283 was widespread. If it expanded from the Steppe what are these Nuragics doing there?? In any case it is clear J-Z615 arrived and spread around the (Western) Balkans.
 
Hmm, I didn't pay attention to these Nuragics. I knew one was related to modern Sardinians but not that these Nuragics are all basals unrelated to each other... ORC007 is YP91, ORC008 J-Z600*, ORC003 and I10553 are J-YP157, Nuragics have more basal diversity than the entire Albania/Balkans + V.Vanik/Mokrin aDNA..

Mokrin result and modern spread shows that beginning with J-Z615* J-L283 was widespread. If it expanded from the Steppe what are these Nuragics doing there?? In any case it is clear J-Z615 arrived and spread around the (Western) Balkans.

Except for some very minor I2a subclades, (R1b, R1a majority) and some Q subclades none of the others are from the Steppes. Neither J2b2.
 
Hmm, I didn't pay attention to these Nuragics. I knew one was related to modern Sardinians but not that these Nuragics are all basals unrelated to each other... ORC007 is YP91, ORC008 J-Z600*, ORC003 and I10553 are J-YP157, Nuragics have more basal diversity than the entire Albania/Balkans + V.Vanik/Mokrin aDNA..

Mokrin result and modern spread shows that beginning with J-Z615* J-L283 was widespread. If it expanded from the Steppe what are these Nuragics doing there?? In any case it is clear J-Z615 arrived and spread around the (Western) Balkans.

It seems you have trouble interpreting the YTree, again :grin:. ORC008 is not J-Z600*. He has no coverage for YP157 and Z585, but negative for Z615 (you can see this if you click "i"). So considering the other two samples, I think there is a good possibility he is J-YP157 too.

For ORC007, I'm actually a bit surprised by YFull going with that call, due to low coverage. He has only one positive read for YP91 (which could be due to ancient DNA damage), with everything else at that level no coverage. Z600 and YP157 have no coverage either. (Unless they found he shares a Novel SNP with the French J-YP91* sample).
 
It seems you have trouble interpreting the YTree, again . ORC008 is not J-Z600*. He has no coverage for YP157 and Z585, but negative for Z615 (you can see this if you click "i"). So considering the other two samples, I think there is a good possibility he is J-YP157 too.
For ORC007, I'm actually a bit surprised by YFull going with that call, due to low coverage. He has only one positive read for YP91 (which could be due to ancient DNA damage), with everything else at that level no coverage. Z600 and YP157 have no coverage either. (Unless they found he shares a Novel SNP with the French J-YP91* sample).

No, I do pay close attention to "i".:grin: My main point was: he is Z615-. This is where the major expansion begins. So ORC007 has only one read, but as you say it might be that he shares something with the French sample. YFull information now comes in incrementals that are separated by a month or so (updates) so I guess we'll have to wait a bit for that information. They started adding plenty of samples to YFull including some ambiguous quality samples (like one Italian E-V13 sample). I10553 and ORC003 might end up sharing some SNPs. I10553 also comes from a separate study but all samples are from Perdasdefogu. 4 out of 6 Nuragics from there are J-L283. So this site is of some interest for J-L283.

ORC008 might be also YP113, there are some Sardinians in that clade, albeit unlike YP157 they seem to have much smaller TMRCA (they share 37 SNP's).

You mentioned that there was one Romanian Geno 2.0 sample that was Z585- (or similar)?

This way it looks like Z615 might have been present in the Slovenia-S.Hungary/Vojvodina range before spreading to the Balkans.


Except for some very minor I2a subclades, (R1b, R1a majority) and some Q subclades none of the others are from the Steppes. Neither J2b2.

Interestingly one might add N-P189.2, common in one Old Herzegovina clan Banjani and Pivljani. This hg was found in Botai culture, and subsequently in the Poltavka culture (R1b heavy) so this line also expanded with the proto-IE's.
 
Some Romanian J-L283's, based on NGS and STR matches of samples from studies with the NGS determined clades.

1. J-L283>Z631>Y22894 (13) - 8 Basarab's from Sibiu, 1 Basarab from Gorj, 1 Piatra Niamt, 1 Ploiesti, 1 Romanian from Germany, 1 (Barbarii et al). This is one of proto-Romanian clusters, most common in Basarabs and found in 5 studies, albeit in no commercially tested Romanians (shows how poorly they are tested). We do know their dominant surname (Basarab).
2. J-L283>Z631>??? (5) - 3 from Brasov, 2 from Dolj. Likely Z631, dys388=14 cluster, unknown sublclade below. It doesn't seem any identified clade is defined by 388=14 and these are not with identical STR's, 15/17, but they all share 388=14.
3. J-L283>Y37121>Y85328 (2) - Romanian from Smeeni, also RO3 from Vrancea county (nearby).
4. J-L283>Y20899 (2) - H44 Oradea, and one Romanian from Germany. Match most closely Hungarian from Budapest BuCa_026 17/17.
5. J-L283>BY81991 (2)- Romania at YFull is in cluster with an Italian (American flag) but much closer to him are Bulgarians. Also probably no. 50 from Barbarii et al.
6. J-L283>Z631>Y191359 (2) - With 2 Albanians. Also no. 160 from Ploiesti likely is Y191359.

I know also there was one PH1602 from here.
 
No, I do pay close attention to "i".:grin: My main point was: he is Z615-. This is where the major expansion begins. So ORC007 has only one read, but as you say it might be that he shares something with the French sample. YFull information now comes in incrementals that are separated by a month or so (updates) so I guess we'll have to wait a bit for that information. They started adding plenty of samples to YFull including some ambiguous quality samples (like one Italian E-V13 sample).
I10553 and ORC003 might end up sharing some SNPs. I10553 also comes from a separate study but all samples are from Perdasdefogu. 4 out of 6 Nuragics from there are J-L283. So this site is of some interest for J-L283.
ORC008 might be also YP113, there are some Sardinians in that clade, albeit unlike YP157 they seem to have much smaller TMRCA (they share 37 SNP's.
You mentioned that there was one Romanian Geno 2.0 sample that was Z585- (or similar)?
This way it looks like Z615 might have been present in the Slovenia-S.Hungary/Vojvodina range before spreading to the Balkans.

Well, I'm not sure what you meant, I just wanted to clarify that ORC008 is not J-Z600*.

Yes, the location and timeframe of all these Nuragic J-L283 samples is the same. So considering the phylogenetic placement, I think ORC008 may well be J-YP157 too.
And yes, there is a Romanian on Geno 2.0 that's tested L283+ and Z585- so he can be anywhere in between.

I would agree in regards to J-Z615 expansion. For the expansion between J-Z622 and Z615, I think we need older aDNA. Otherwise, J-L283 itself did migrate from further east, going by YFull estimates sometime between 5700 ybp and EBA (or at J-Z622).

EDIT: I see YFull has added KDC001, ~3800 ybp, MBA North Caucasus,~J-L283* (Z622? Z600- YP91-). There is also the modern Armenian J-L283*, and RISE408, LBA Armenia, J-L283+ (Z622? Z600- YP91?). They don't seem to share any Novel SNPs amongst themselves either.
 
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Some Romanian J-L283's, based on NGS and STR matches of samples from studies with the NGS determined clades.
1. J-L283>Z631>Y22894 (13) - 8 Basarab's from Sibiu, 1 Basarab from Gorj, 1 Piatra Niamt, 1 Ploiesti, 1 Romanian from Germany, 1 (Barbarii et al). This is one of proto-Romanian clusters, most common in Basarabs and found in 5 studies, albeit in no commercially tested Romanians (shows how poorly they are tested). We do know their dominant surname (Basarab).
2. J-L283>Z631>??? (5) - 3 from Brasov, 2 from Dolj. Likely Z631, dys388=14 cluster, unknown sublclade below. It doesn't seem any identified clade is defined by 388=14 and these are not with identical STR's, 15/17, but they all share 388=14.
3. J-L283>Y37121>Y85328 (2) - Romanian from Smeeni, also RO3 from Vrancea county (nearby).
4. J-L283>Y20899 (2) - H44 Oradea, and one Romanian from Germany. Match most closely Hungarian from Budapest BuCa_026 17/17.
5. J-L283>BY81991 (2)- Romania at YFull is in cluster with an Italian (American flag) but much closer to him are Bulgarians. Also probably no. 50 from Barbarii et al.
6. J-L283>Z631>Y191359 (2) - With 2 Albanians. Also no. 160 from Ploiesti likely is Y191359.
I know also there was one PH1602 from here.

1) J-Z631>Y22894 = "proto-Romanian"? Not sure what you mean by that, but STRs suggest this cluster is more diverse in the western Balkans. Its TMRCA seems to be no older than about 1000 ybp, so it could've migrated there fairly recently.

4) I'm guessing you're basing this on DYS19=14. I would be very careful in classifying such haplotypes under J-Y20899 at low resolution. DYS19=14 has proven to appear in many different J-L283 branches. Though I've seen a couple of J-Y20899>PH1751 looking haplotypes in the region Romania/Hungary tested at higher resolution.
Btw, for J-Y20899 the most interesting sample seems to be 330960. His paternal origin is from Italy (doesn't know anything more specific). He is tested Z1296+ Z1297-. At ~29/111 from J-Y20899 samples, he likely splits that level. 29/111 on average is ~2900 ybp, but hopefully he takes NGS at some point.

Anyway, none of these J-L283 branches seem "native" to Romania to me, with the possible exception of J-BY81991. Yes, the American sample is with origin from Rome, Italy.
 
1) J-Z631>Y22894 = "proto-Romanian"? Not sure what you mean by that, but STRs suggest this cluster is more diverse in the western Balkans. Its TMRCA seems to be no older than about 1000 ybp, so it could've migrated there fairly recently.


Anyway, none of these J-L283 branches seem "native" to Romania to me, with the possible exception of J-BY81991. Yes, the American sample is with origin from Rome, Italy.

This is the only Basarab cluster found in two separate regions, the most common Basarab cluster, so likely this is the hg of the Basarab. Also it pops up in other studies. So it must be proto-Romanian because of commonality and the likely Basarab link. Though ofc proto-Romanian and "native to the territory of Romania" are two different things, and indeed proto-Romanians proper who at some point dwelled with proto-Albanians (due to shared loans) are not native to modern day Romania that is their language, and so most of these J-L283 are good candidates for proto-Romanians.

For J-BY81991 check Bulgarian 575881 who is much closer to Romanian than Italian and shares some specific STR's for that clade (dys385b=14, dys464d=19, dys458=18).

Btw, for J-Y20899 the most interesting sample seems to be 330960. His paternal origin is from Italy (doesn't know anything more specific). He is tested Z1296+ Z1297-. At ~29/111 from J-Y20899 samples, he likely splits that level. 29/111 on average is ~2900 ybp, but hopefully he takes NGS at some point.

There are lots of mutations (8) which define the Y21045 and PH4679 levels (as the Sardinian has no STR's) and also many STR's.

330960 is:
DYS640 12→13 TRUE
DYS537 11→12 FAIL
DYS19 15→14 FAIL
DYS510 19→18 FAIL
DYS444 12→13 FAIL
DYS557 16→17 TRUE
DYS712 29→30 FAIL


He either splits the Y21045 or he is Y21045-. He is "probably" positive for a few Y21045 level SNP's. Z38300 is defined by dys434=18, dys712=27, he fails on both, at the Y20899 level he has roughly half of defining STR's but considering the results for the Y21045/PH4679 level and above he should be Y20899-. GD is of secondary importance in comparison to defining STR's. He might also share something with the Sardinian.

4) I'm guessing you're basing this on DYS19=14. I would be very careful in classifying such haplotypes under J-Y20899 at low resolution. DYS19=14 has proven to appear in many different J-L283 branches. Though I've seen a couple of J-Y20899>PH1751 looking haplotypes in the region Romania/Hungary tested at higher resolution.

Of course it is the dys19=14. While it might pop up in other clades, this STR does define Z38300. Is there evidence any other clade is defined by dys19=14?

BuCa_026 Budapest, Hungary [Hungarian] 12 24 14 10 14,17 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 17 17 9 23 14 12 21 9
(I reduced H4 by 1)

J-Y161916 is defined by 448=20, 439=11, 549=12 so he is Y161916-. Y20899 is defined by 635=22 (among others), so this sample might be Y20899-. Might be some J-Z38300*.
 
Classical Illyrians were heavily influenced by Danubian Urnfield culture, if not they were descendants of them. So, we should look for a possible candidate spreading from around Central Europe from MBA to LBA.
 
There are lots of mutations (8) which define the Y21045 and PH4679 levels (as the Sardinian has no STR's) and also many STR's.
330960 is:
DYS640 12→13 TRUE
DYS537 11→12 FAIL
DYS19 15→14 FAIL
DYS510 19→18 FAIL
DYS444 12→13 FAIL
DYS557 16→17 TRUE
DYS712 29→30 FAIL
He either splits the Y21045 or he is Y21045-. He is "probably" positive for a few Y21045 level SNP's. Z38300 is defined by dys434=18, dys712=27, he fails on both, at the Y20899 level he has roughly half of defining STR's but considering the results for the Y21045/PH4679 level and above he should be Y20899-. GD is of secondary importance in comparison to defining STR's. He might also share something with the Sardinian.

He is at least "fully developed" J-Y21045. His SNP test result (Z1296+ Z1297-) in combination with DYS650=14 seals it... True, he has DYS19=15, but he has likely backmutated there. You put too much trust in STR mutations, you know well they are prone to backmutations.
I guess you mean DYS534 and DYS712. Anyway, they don't seem to be predictors for J-Z38300 here (I know you're using YFull's STR mutations, but I have data that contradicts this...)

at the Y20899 level he has roughly half of defining STR's but considering the results for the Y21045/PH4679 level and above he should be Y20899-

All the defining STRs for J-Y20899 are for the currently fully developed samples (i.e. the TMRCA of J-Y85522 and J-PH1751). So if he is hypothetically splitting the J-Y20899 level, of course he wouldn't have all the currently defining STRs. He has one key value which is DYS540=13, while everyone above J-Y20899 has 12, including other Z638 branches. And considering that within J-Y21045 his STRs are closer to J-Y20899 samples, I still think it's more likely he is splitting this subclade.

Of course it is the dys19=14. While it might pop up in other clades, this STR does define Z38300. Is there evidence any other clade is defined by dys19=14?
BuCa_026 Budapest, Hungary [Hungarian] 12 24 14 10 14,17 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 17 17 9 23 14 12 21 9
(I reduced H4 by 1)
J-Y161916 is defined by 448=20, 439=11, 549=12 so he is Y161916-. Y20899 is defined by 635=22 (among others), so this sample might be Y20899-. Might be some J-Z38300*.

DYS19=14 starts with at least J-PH4679. Sardinians don't have any STRs as you pointed out, so we don't know what they have on DYS19.

My point was that you can't reliably predict it based on DYS19=14 with limited STRs. Look at J-M241 project, DYS19=14 appears in many different L283 branches. After all, it's one mutation from 15. And so without higher resolution or SNP testing, that Hungarian haplotype can fit in many different L283 branches..
 
Classical Illyrians were heavily influenced by Danubian Urnfield culture, if not they were descendants of them. So, we should look for a possible candidate spreading from around Central Europe from MBA to LBA.

It is very difficult to place who belongs to what without more ancient y dna, which y dna have been found in Urnfield culture so far?

According to modern y dna j2b l283 is more northern than j2as and j1s so it fits with "Urnfield culture" regionally however Urnfield culture was widespread even further north where j2b l283 is missing.

As of now v13 makes more sense for Urnfield, however the spread of v13 in southern places like Greece maybe also rules it out because Urnfield didn't have much contact with Greece. Unless, v13 spread much later in Greece through post Urnfield mixed balkans

Maybe a map of r1b Z2103 across the balkans could also help identify the Urnfield culture because this is another major clade in balkans. Or it could be that they were wiped out and only left small traces of i2a2, r1b L51, pre-slavic r1a or even some i1. Some of the smaller clades in balkans today
 
It is very difficult to place who belongs to what without more ancient y dna, which y dna have been found in Urnfield culture so far?

According to modern y dna j2b l283 is more northern than j2as and j1s so it fits with "Urnfield culture" regionally however Urnfield culture was widespread even further north where j2b l283 is missing.

As of now v13 makes more sense for Urnfield, however the spread of v13 in southern places like Greece maybe also rules it out because Urnfield didn't have much contact with Greece. Unless, v13 spread much later in Greece through post Urnfield mixed balkans

Maybe a map of r1b Z2103 across the balkans could also help identify the Urnfield culture because this is another major clade in balkans. Or it could be that they were wiped out and only left small traces of i2a2, r1b L51, pre-slavic r1a or even some i1. Some of the smaller clades in balkans today
This is because J-L283 is not urmfield culture. Its balkan / west medditernean
But during roman times spread out. Romans didnt have a large campaign in scandanavia which is probably why there its almost non existant but romans did also use mercenaries at the time. Which is why its probably spread out so much.
R1b i imagine is definitely urmfield culture.

J L283 culture - printed cardium culture.
And hybrid balcanic cultures

490ba24fced9be66a3486e03691ab707.gif
 
Is it possible that J-L283 is a trojan haplogroup?
1600 BC its in the balkans

Sardinia J-L283
1200BC
Same time of trojan war

The J-L283 samples are found in Cagliari which is the territory if the ilienses tribes.


The trojans were related to thracians

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilienses

A fourth component part of the population was the army of Iolaus, consisting of Thespians and men from Attica, which put in at Sardinia and founded Olbia [...] Be this as it may, there are still today places in Sardinia called Iolaia, and Iolaus is worshipped by the inhabitants.[...] When Troy was taken, among those Trojans who fled were those who escaped with Aeneas. A part of them, carried from their course by winds, reached Sardinia and intermarried with the Greeks already settled there (Iolaes). But the non-Greek element (Balares ?) were prevented from coming to blows with the Greeks and Trojans, for the two enemies were evenly matched in all warlike equipment, while the river Thorsus (Tirso), flowing between their territories, made both equally afraid to cross it.



In what was once their territory, very important are the findings of Mycenaean artifacts, confirming the wealth of exchanges between these two ancient populations. Of particular interest are also the Oxhide ingot, which perhaps came from Cyprus and was discovered in various locations, including the Cagliari area, in the province of Ogliastra and other central areas. Between 1300 and 1200 BC in central-southern Sardinia was produced a kind of gray pottery also called "gray Sardinian"; remains of this type of pottery have been found in Kommos, Crete, and at Cannatello near Agrigento, Sicily.[11]


Troy was founded about 3000bc
 

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