Central and South Asian DNA Paper

Angela said:
Autosomally he is Anatolian and Iranian farmer (although I'm sure days will be spent, once the raw data is available, trying to squeeze some EHG out of him), and from a period too young for "steppe" movements south, and actually from a date earlier than predicted for his subclade.

The calls seem to be correct. He wasn't carbon dated because he was right next to and in the same grave with two samples, also Iranian and Anatolian farmer, who were dated. Now, because of all the controversy on the net, they are going to carbon date him.

Let's see what it says, although it would be odd for him to come from a different era given the circumstances and especially that the grave is undisturbed.

The point for me is that I doubt that David Reich would go out on a limb about a putative movement of a group of "Iranian" farmers, not a bunch of women, north onto the steppe beginning in 5000 BC based on one sample, particularly given that we know they have a lot of samples from this area. Of course, maybe the samples carried another yDna, like G2a or J and they just disappeared due to drift.

(That "raiding" for huge numbers of women from the Caucasus like American Indians or Conan the Barbarian was always juvenile male nonsense, and I said so. The only problem was that no "probable" y dna was found. Well, Maciamo had always said some R1b was south of the Caucasus, and now maybe there is proof of that.)

We'll see. I have no horse in this race, and to tell the truth I'm beyond bored with this whole Indo-European "thing", but I always thought it was possible, and posted about it a lot. People on the net just never gave any credence to either older archaeological findings like those from Ivanov and Grigoriev or newer papers either. David Anthony, from their own "Anglo-sphere", was the Bible, and everything he said was right in every particular. Well, maybe not.
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so, I have another question
if this haji firuz R1b-Z2103 is ancestral to Yamna, why was he alone, and J2b didn't join?
Yamna was a new way of life and it was very succesfull, it must have atracted others
 
Angela said:
Some posters on the net seem to think the following quote from the paper calls into question the findings of Lazaridis et al. I don't think that's necessarily so.

""We show that there was a west-to-east cline of decreasing Anatolian agriculturalist-related admixture ranging from ~70% in Chalcolithic Anatolia to ~33% in eastern Iran, to ~3% in far eastern Turan (Fig.1; Supplementary Materials). The timing of the establishment of this cline is consistent with the dates of spread of wheat and barley agriculture from west to east (in the 7th to 6th millennia BCE), suggesting the possibility that individuals of Anatolian ancestry may have contributed to spreading agriculturalist economies not only westward to Europe, but also eastward to Iran."

This is not how we were told before, as the general idea seemed to be that agriculture arose pretty much independently in Anatolia and the Zagros area. Also, I'm not sure you actually can go as far as they do in drawing this conclusion. But if true it would basically depose the Fertile Crescent as place of origin of agriculture."


As we've discussed a lot on this thread, what seems to have been particular to the Zagros was animal domestication and the "farming" of pulses.

The quote from the paper speaks specifically about wheat and barley agriculture, and makes perfect sense. I do think that the movement of Anatolian genetic flow tracks with that and extends to the limits of BMAC at least.
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it has been discussed indeed

during PPNA wheat farming and herding were still 2 seperate communities
during PPNB they merged, that is starting 10.7 ka , even earlier than the paper says
herders merging with agriculturalists west :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Aswad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Ain_Ghazal :

Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1b2 has been found in 75% of the 'Ain Ghazal population, along with 60% of PPNB populations (and is present in all three stages of PPNB) and in most Natufians.

T1a (T-M70) is found among the later Middle Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (MPPNB) inhabitants from 'Ain Ghazal, but was not found among the early and middle MPPNB populations. As was previously found in the early Neolithic settlement from Karsdorf (Germany) a subclade of mtDNA R0 was found with Y-DNA T at 'Ain Ghazal.
It is thought, therefore, that the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B population is mostly composed of two different populations: members of early Natufian civilisation and a population resulting from immigration from the north, i.e. north-eastern Anatolia.

They forget to mention also H2 was there and in nearby Motza, Israel

agriculturalists merging with herders east :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chogha_Golan
 
bicicleur said:
T1a (T-M70) is found among the later Middle Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (MPPNB) inhabitants from 'Ain Ghazal, but was not found among the early and middle MPPNB populations. As was previously found in the early Neolithic settlement from Karsdorf (Germany) a subclade of mtDNA R0 was found with Y-DNA T at 'Ain Ghazal.
It is thought, therefore, that the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B population is mostly composed of two different populations: members of early Natufian civilisation and a population resulting from immigration from the north, i.e. north-eastern Anatolia.
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you sure that Ghazal T x1 is "related" to Karsdorf T x 2 .........or is it that Karsdorf T x 2 is 'related " to Wallacian plain ( Malak , cris culture ) T x 2 who is also early neolithic but has steppe and 35% of WHG admixtures

Ghazal T is noted to have come from basic modern Turkish Kurd lands
 
bicicleur said:
so, I have another question
if this haji firuz R1b-Z2103 is ancestral to Yamna, why was he alone, and J2b didn't join?
Yamna was a new way of life and it was very succesfull, it must have atracted others
Click to expand...

I think J2b might have. From what I can see the distribution of J2b and R1b Z2103 is pretty similar in Europe.

That needn't be the case, however. What has struck me about so much of this is how related y clades sort of took different and very distinct routes. It happened with downstream R1b, yes? One to Iberia(DF27), one in Germany and other parts of northern Europe (U-106), one to the Isles(the clade which led to L21), one in southern Germany, Italy, eastern France (U-152).

The only way I can explain it is that it must have been an initially small group of men all or perhaps at least mostly descended from one perhaps successful leader.

I don't necessarily agree about Yamnaya being so "successful" that it was a draw. You don't usually leave on a folk migration if everything is just great at home. This group might have been pushed out of their area in the south Caucasus. In the beginning there was no one and nothing on the steppe except some hunter-gatherers living in crude shelters, and it wasn't the most hospitable terrain and climate in the world. Of course, as time passed, things would have gotten more attractive. From Reich's book what they're seeing is sort of steady movement for 2000 years, much like the movement of the Neolithic into Europe, I think, which was, however, initially perhaps more welcoming? It's only at the end of that period that this hybrid culture became so successful and expansive.
 
Angela said:
No, it wouldn't.

I'm not saying this is necessarily what happened, but it is certainly more than possible that a more upstream clade of R1b moved south of the Caucasus and through successive inter-marriage became autosomally Iran Neo and Anatolian Neo and then moved back onto the steppe.

Surely we can see from just the samples we previously had that these groups traveled huge distances. Look at R1b V88, which got from Europe all the way to west central Africa and became completely SSA in the process before probably some of them moved elsewhere and changed autosomally once again.

People have to stop thinking that a ydna lineage correlates once and forever with a certain "ethnic" make-up. It doesn't.
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This was the first thing that i fought when i saw the study, but i think it's too much a complicate scenario for making it a mainstream hypothesis, we would need to see some WHG or EHG in those early people coming from north in south caucasus, then they would lost mainly that component to become a CHG-Anatolian-Iranian farmers like. But we have multiple downstream of R1b-Z2105 in Eastern Europe that already shows some CHG... All this is complicate.
 
If R1b would be the IE carrier coming from let's say Azerbaidjan I would expect some IE non Iranian trace in the area and lots of Caucasian valleys with exotic IE langagues; moreover, R1b-V88 was taking another route and no IE is proposed for them.
 
Angela said:
I think J2b might have. From what I can see the distribution of J2b and R1b Z2103 is pretty similar in Europe.

That needn't be the case, however. What has struck me about so much of this is how related y clades sort of took different and very distinct routes. It happened with downstream R1b, yes? One to Iberia(DF27), one in Germany and other parts of northern Europe (U-106), one to the Isles(the clade which led to L21), one in southern Germany, Italy, eastern France (U-152).

The only way I can explain it is that it must have been an initially small group of men all or perhaps at least mostly descended from one perhaps successful leader.

I don't necessarily agree about Yamnaya being so "successful" that it was a draw. You don't usually leave on a folk migration if everything is just great at home. This group might have been pushed out of their area in the south Caucasus. In the beginning there was no one and nothing on the steppe except some hunter-gatherers living in crude shelters, and it wasn't the most hospitable terrain and climate in the world. Of course, as time passed, things would have gotten more attractive. From Reich's book what they're seeing is sort of steady movement for 2000 years, much like the movement of the Neolithic into Europe, I think, which was, however, initially perhaps more welcoming? It's only at the end of that period that this hybrid culture became so successful and expansive.
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well, there is no J2b sampled in Yamna, Afanasievo, Poltavka, Catacomb ..

and it was succesfull at that time, the first cattle and oxen drawn wagons occupying the whole Pontic steppe by a single clade, while original HG had to confine themselves to the river valleys, and later on also expanding east through the Kazakh steppe upto the Altaï Mts
it was something which was impossible prior to the invention of the wheel
and appearantly the Pontic steppe was the ideal terrain for this, not Transcaucasia or Iran

and what you say about related y clades spreading is true
that is why I'm not sure about the connection between haji firuz and yamna
 
berun said:
If R1b would be the IE carrier coming from let's say Azerbaidjan I would expect some IE non Iranian trace in the area and lots of Caucasian valleys with exotic IE langagues; moreover, R1b-V88 was taking another route and no IE is proposed for them.
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It was an example of the incredible distances these ancient groups traveled: the specific route was not the point.

I also think that as yDna need not mean a certain autosomal make up for ever, it doesn't mean a certain language for ever. The Caucasian languages might have arrived in the Caucasus later and with yDna groups which supplanted the existing yDna and language.

I don't know, but these things are not immutable.

Look at the Levant. J2 and J1 came from the north, imo, from near the Caucasus, but again, imo, might have adopted Afro-Asiatic languages from prior inhabitants.

I don't believe in making hard and fast rules for these kinds of things.
 
bicicleur said:
well, there is no J2b sampled in Yamna, Afanasievo, Poltavka, Catacomb ..

and it was succesfull at that time, the first cattle and oxen drawn wagons occupying the whole Pontic steppe by a single clade, while original HG had to confine themselves to the river valleys, and later on also expanding east through the Kazakh steppe upto the Altaï Mts
it was something which was impossible prior to the invention of the wheel
and appearantly the Pontic steppe was the ideal terrain for this, not Transcaucasia or Iran

and what you say about related y clades spreading is true
that is why I'm not sure about the connection between haji firuz and yamna
Click to expand...

Neither am I, yet. We don't even have the carbon dating.

I'm not much for leaping way ahead of the evidence and getting emotionally attached to certain theories or ancient groups. If I were going to write a book about it and had to state a theory, no doubt I would. :)

Again, you're talking about 3000 BC, and the first spread into the steppe would have been 5000 BC: very different periods.
 
bicicleur said:
well, there is no J2b sampled in Yamna, Afanasievo, Poltavka, Catacomb ..
and it was succesfull at that time, the first cattle and oxen drawn wagons occupying the whole Pontic steppe by a single clade, while original HG had to confine themselves to the river valleys, and later on also expanding east through the Kazakh steppe upto the Altaï Mts
it was something which was impossible prior to the invention of the wheel
and appearantly the Pontic steppe was the ideal terrain for this, not Transcaucasia or Iran
and what you say about related y clades spreading is true
that is why I'm not sure about the connection between haji firuz and yamna
Click to expand...

There's also no L51 yet afaik - this would pose a significant problem if the date of Hajji Firuz Tepe can be substantiated, which would push the bifurcation of M269 way back. There seems to have been a strong selection on the Y-chromosome in those bronze age cultures in any case, since every expansion seems to be associated with a different Y-DNA founder event.

To get an idea what happened we'd have to see the samples from the oldest steppe herders (Maykop, Kemi Oba) and the steppe cultures that show higher diversity and social stratification (Catacomb especially). I'm quite sure the David Reich and colleagues already have those.
 
bicicleur said:
so, I have another question
if this haji firuz R1b-Z2103 is ancestral to Yamna, why was he alone, and J2b didn't join?
Yamna was a new way of life and it was very succesfull, it must have atracted others
Click to expand...

Interesting Question.
Answer: J2b was mostly south. Kultepe, southward into Iran(?) - In transcaucasia proper, mostly Georgia and western Azerbaijan, as well as Armenia in a small spot, we will find R1b-L23 above any clade(as well as just M269).
It troubles me the fact that its not mentioned that neolithic Wine making is found in only two places and dates thus far. GadaChrilli Gora by 5800bc and in Hajji Firuz by 5500bc is not a coincidence.
As it is not the fact that the sudden and abrupt disappearance of a specific culture (also noted by the amount of different cereals they cultivated), sees the arrival of agriculture (at least the explosion of) to north caucasus as well as the arrival of the same Z2103, L23 and Iran_N or CHG admix. Shulaveri was not a couple of tells. Shulaveri was a culture with a vast amount of people whose sudden spread into north, south and western region (notice no eastern) would have a big impact for the 5th milenia.

J2b will have an interesting story as well I suppose. I have this persistent felling that Halaf and Samarra-Hussana will turn out J2b and following Ubaid/Uruk spread will show arrival of J1 to transcaucasus, or Leilatepe and Maykop a mix of L1a and J1. or something similar. Its just a feeling.

This is not saying that J2b didn't "walked" the same route as the L23. they "met" in 5800bc and I figure there was a natural empathy between them. :)
 
Angela said:
It was an example of the incredible distances these ancient groups traveled: the specific route was not the point.

I also think that as yDna need not mean a certain autosomal make up for ever, it doesn't mean a certain language for ever. The Caucasian languages might have arrived in the Caucasus later and with yDna groups which supplanted the existing yDna and language.

I don't know, but these things are not immutable.

Look at the Levant. J2 and J1 came from the north, imo, from near the Caucasus, but again, imo, might have adopted Afro-Asiatic languages from prior inhabitants.

I don't believe in making hard and fast rules for these kinds of things.
Click to expand...

And also a long-distance migration, especially if it is done by a semi-nomad people, don't necessarily spread in a cline that leaves significant pockets of descendants all along the way until their final destination. They may and in fact usually involve huge leaps where the vast majority of the people don't stay put in the intervening places for more than 1 generation, sometimes - as we saw in the migration period and with the latest results on those artificially shaped skulls - even spanning many hundreds of kilometers in their own lifetime. They may have gone from point A to point B, hundreds and hundreds of kilometers away, in just a few decades or even years until they found a safer and preferably more underpopulated land, that scenario wouldn't be unheard of (actually it was pretty common in ancient times).

So, they may just have not left much genetic evidence of their passage through Caucasian territory and not established any long-term community there (and if they did, these were such a tiny minority that they were easily absorbed along the time, the larger part of them continuing on their migration routes), especially if their optimal environment was not a patchwork of narrow high valleys already inhabited by other peoples.
 
Angela said:
I think J2b might have. From what I can see the distribution of J2b and R1b Z2103 is pretty similar in Europe.
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is the distribution of j2 really homogenous in europe? it highly depends on what graphics you look but most of those maps show a gradient from south east to northern europe. this might be because the south east already had higher amounts of j2 together with j1 before yamnas invaded europe and yamnas then brought only little amounts of j2 to the rest of europe.
the iranian r1b-z2105 sample we have is probably not coming from the population that moved north,ancestral to yamnaya, if there ever was one. it was rather a more southern neighbour with a higher amount of j2's. armenia or georgia might be places to look for this population ancestral to yamna.
 
Olympus Mons said:
Interesting Question. Answer: J2b was mostly south. Kultepe, southward into Iran(?) - In transcaucasia proper, mostly Georgia and western Azerbaijan, as well as Armenia in a small spot, we will find R1b-L23 above any clade(as well as just M269). It troubles me the fact that its not mentioned that neolithic Wine making is found in only two places and dates thus far. GadaChrilli Gora by 5800bc and in Hajji Firuz by 5500bc is not a coincidence. As it is not the fact that the sudden and abrupt disappearance of a specific culture (also noted by the amount of different cereals they cultivated), sees the arrival of agriculture (at least the explosion of) to north caucasus as well as the arrival of the same Z2103, L23 and Iran_N or CHG admix. Shulaveri was not a couple of tells. Shulaveri was a culture with a vast amount of people whose sudden spread into north, south and western region (notice no eastern) would have a big impact for the 5th milenia. J2b will have an interesting story as well I suppose. I have this persistent felling that Halaf and Samarra-Hussana will turn out J2b and following Ubaid/Uruk spread will show arrival of J1 to transcaucasus, or Leilatepe and Maykop a mix of L1a and J1. or something similar. Its just a feeling. This is not saying that J2b didn't "walked" the same route as the L23. they "met" in 5800bc and I figure there was a natural empathy between them. :)
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It's always difficult to follow cultural package in time, Rye was actually one of the first cereal domesticated in the Natufian and use in southern levant and egypt back in 10'000 BC if i recall, then disappear in mostly every neolithic and metal culture, to make a reappearance in antiquity. Maybe wine is a more centralized culture in the ancient times dont know, but it might pops more ancient in future studies.
 
Besides all that was written and discussed above, are there really many people that think that Yamna people became 40% or even 50% related to Iranian_Neolithic (increasingly a likelier source than simply CHG) entirely through female exogamy? That ALWAYS sounded extremely improbable and even a bit confusing to me and it sounds more and more unrealistic especially considering that the "southern" influences were quite probably more technologically advanced and prestigious at least until the early Bronze Age.
 
halfalp said:
It's always difficult to follow cultural package in time, Rye was actually one of the first cereal domesticated in the Natufian and use in southern levant and egypt back in 10'000 BC if i recall, then disappear in mostly every neolithic and metal culture, to make a reappearance in antiquity. Maybe wine is a more centralized culture in the ancient times dont know, but it might pops more ancient in future studies.
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Don't exactly know if I follow you. But, what I meant is: Up until yesterday Z2013 was steppe steppe steppe. Now, having an Iranian one in 5000bc, and if one is looking for a better place where they could have originated and migrated to steppe, nothing better than the place near the caucasus mountains, CHG homeland, and where wine making links that Z2013. Actually the culture we already know had mtdna I1, H15a1a and H2a that is sometimes called Steppe Mtdna. Right?

And I figure Reich lab has that samples from Margaryan and Derenko and have Ydna for it. They didn't change their minds wth just that sample...
 
I missed this but there is U1 in the Hajji Firuz grave which has the R1b Z2103 and the 2 J2b's. The U1 that is found is U1a4 (also known as U1a1d) in one of the J2b males.



R7qaAB6.png




QUjFYZw.png
 
Olympus Mons said:
Don't exactly know if I follow you. But, what I meant is: Up until yesterday Z2013 was steppe steppe steppe. Now, having an Iranian one in 5000bc, and if one is looking for a better place where they could have originated and migrated to steppe, nothing better than the place near the caucasus mountains, CHG homeland, and where wine making links that Z2013. Actually the culture we already know had mtdna I1, H15a1a and H2a that is sometimes called Steppe Mtdna. Right? And I figure Reich lab has that samples from Margaryan and Derenko and have Ydna for it. They didn't change their minds wth just that sample...
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I was talking about your statement saying we should follow the wine maker to found the origin of the Yamnayans.
 
Johane Derite said:
I missed this but there is U1 in the Hajji Firuz grave which has the R1b Z2103 and the 2 J2b's. The U1 that is found is U1a4 (also known as U1a1d) in one of the J2b males.



R7qaAB6.png




QUjFYZw.png
Click to expand...
Wow ! is it not the first ancient U1 that we have ? so we have all, apart U9, U subclades in ancient context now no ?
 
Ailchu said:
is the distribution of j2 really homogenous in europe? it highly depends on what graphics you look but most of those maps show a gradient from south east to northern europe. this might be because the south east already had higher amounts of j2 together with j1 before yamnas invaded europe and yamnas then brought only little amounts of j2 to the rest of europe.
the iranian r1b-z2105 sample we have is probably not coming from the population that moved north,ancestral to yamnaya, if there ever was one. it was rather a more southern neighbour with a higher amount of j2's. armenia or georgia might be places to look for this population ancestral to yamna.
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J2b-L283, E-V13 & R1b-Z2103 are still very frequent Y-DNA in the Altaic & Uralic groups of the European steppe and the forest zone to the north where neolithic farmers probably didn't play a very important role or never reached at all. I find this a good reason to believe that these Y-DNA haplogroups expanded from the steppe at one point, with their westward expansions being more concentrated in the Balkans rather than Central Europe perhaps. Thracians, Illyrians? Your guess is as good as mine.
 
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