Basal Eurasian in 25,000 yo site?

I thinks its clear that E is from the mostly ANA releated component in Taforalt and E in Eurasians mostly have come via Natufians/Levant PPNB and later Cardial Ware culture in Europe. Yoruba has 13% IBM mixture which explains E1b1a in West African/Bantu associated peoples


very likely agree :cool-v:
 
I thinks its clear that E is from the mostly ANA releated component in Taforalt

That is unknown. It might be more or less probable, but its not decided yet.

and E in Eurasians mostly have come via Natufians/Levant PPNB and later Cardial Ware culture in Europe. Yoruba has 13% IBM mixture which explains E1b1a in West African/Bantu associated peoples

That is clear.

Two different things. People sometimes forget how old E and its main clades actually are and the main problem is just that Basal Eurasian is still not found, the Southern Arabian peninsula and the Nile region/Egypt not researched yet. Two big, unresolved issues for that debate.
 
Our cousin D is asian and maybe even paleo-mongolid :unsure:
I know about the nigerian /saudian D branch
But most of haplogroup D branches look asian
https://www.yfull.com/tree/D/
 
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Our cousin D is asian and maybe even paleo-mongolid :unsure:
I know about the nigerian /saudian D branch
But most of haplogroup D branches look asian
https://www.yfull.com/tree/D/

I do look at the distribution of modern samples and these are, from my point of view, inconclusive to in favour of back migration from Asia for haplogroup E as a whole. However, it might be even more complicated with numerous forth and back migrations being possible, we don't know without actual, conclusive evidence. Its like it is with E-V13 too. Without having tested ancient DNA, all kinds of theories might have been viable options back in the days. With ancient DNA being tested, the number of viable theories decreased drastically and is still going down with every new tested ancient individual from the candidate regions, where E-V13 could have "wintered" before the MBA-LBA, to expand in the LBA-EIA.
Its pretty much the same with E probably, they might or might not have "wintered" in Southern Arabia among Basal Eurasians before expanding into Africa. How can we know without having anything from there at all? There really is no way to be sure going by the currently available data.
 
E-v13 might be the most complicated
Haplogroup in europe the 5000bc avellander cave is mind blowing ....
That live the door open that it might originated
In southwest europe and not in the balkan after presumed migration from anatolia


P.s
Might there be also a big mess as to where E generally speaking was at first and to which ancient population it belonged
As you said nothing is set in stone yet....
 
That is unknown. It might be more or less probable, but its not decided yet.



That is clear.

Two different things. People sometimes forget how old E and its main clades actually are and the main problem is just that Basal Eurasian is still not found, the Southern Arabian peninsula and the Nile region/Egypt not researched yet. Two big, unresolved issues for that debate.

I agree, perhaps E was brought there with Basal Eurasians, before the arrival of ANA, that led to the ethnogenesis of Natufians. Nevertheless, I recall all Natufians were a form of E.
 
I agree, perhaps E was brought there with Basal Eurasians, before the arrival of ANA, that led to the ethnogenesis of Natufians. Nevertheless, I recall all Natufians were a form of E.

I thought that Cruciani (2007) located the 'birth' of E in Libya/Egypt. My subbranche E-V22 was born about the twilight of the Egyptian civilization....The desert was developing and the people concentrated in the Nile strip. What would be a reason to revise that?
 
I thought that Cruciani (2007) located the 'birth' of E in Libya/Egypt. My subbranche E-V22 was born about the twilight of the Egyptian civilization....The desert was developing and the people concentrated in the Nile strip. What would be a reason to revise that?

I have to dig around for it, but I recall a paper that was shared by Bicicleur a couple years ago, that suggested that it could have come with Basal Eurasians. I could be wrong.
 
I agree, perhaps E was brought there with Basal Eurasians, before the arrival of ANA, that led to the ethnogenesis of Natufians. Nevertheless, I recall all Natufians were a form of E.

I think Natufians brought it up to the Northern Levante, where in the mix with local foragers the ancestors of ANF came up, with the Natufian paternal and autosomal contribution as a minority element, which was brought over to Europe by Cardial Ware in particular. Seems to be the most parsimonious route.

I thought that Cruciani (2007) located the 'birth' of E in Libya/Egypt. My subbranche E-V22 was born about the twilight of the Egyptian civilization....The desert was developing and the people concentrated in the Nile strip. What would be a reason to revise that?

If you read up on the theories at that time (2007), you will find out that many being outdated by now. However, Libya and especially Egypt is still a good bet, its just not known yet. At that time we didn't know about Basal Eurasians, we had no Natufians and Early Neolithics, the sampling of the living populations was much worse, with much less E from Arabia in particular and not as much known about the migration paths in general. So while I wouldn't say its wrong, we just don't know for sure and there are plausible alternatives.
 
I thought that Cruciani (2007) located the 'birth' of E in Libya/Egypt. My subbranche E-V22 was born about the twilight of the Egyptian civilization....The desert was developing and the people concentrated in the Nile strip. What would be a reason to revise that?


out of all the e-m78 branches
e-v22 is the closest to e-v13 because he share
a common ancestor with e-L618 ( e-v13 ancestor) named e-z1919
:unsure:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1919/
i wish one day that an ancient remain will be found who carry that marker
might be in any place in north east africa up to the levant
 
I think Natufians brought it up to the Northern Levante, where in the mix with local foragers the ancestors of ANF came up, with the Natufian paternal and autosomal contribution as a minority element, which was brought over to Europe by Cardial Ware in particular. Seems to be the most parsimonious route.

If you read up on the theories at that time (2007), you will find out that many being outdated by now. However, Libya and especially Egypt is still a good bet, its just not known yet. At that time we didn't know about Basal Eurasians, we had no Natufians and Early Neolithics, the sampling of the living populations was much worse, with much less E from Arabia in particular and not as much known about the migration paths in general. So while I wouldn't say its wrong, we just don't know for sure and there are plausible alternatives.

E-M78 in the Western Desert

E-V22 as a subbranche of E-M78, originated about 14.000 years ago (y-full). In 2007 Prof. Cruciani stated that the origins of E-M78 lay in the Western Desert (Egypt/Libya). This is confirmed by prof. Trombetta e.a. (2015) they claimed: “a northern African location is favoured for the node defining the M78 sub-clade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007).”

Refugium Lake Nubia, humid phase

Battaglia (2009) wrote: ‘A recent archaeological study reveals that during a desiccation period in North Africa, while the eastern Sahara was depopulated, a refugium existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC (radiocarbon-calibrated date). The rapid arrival of wet conditions during this Early Holocene period provided an impetus for population movement into habitat that was quickly settled afterwards’.
In the humid phases the haplogroup E-M78 spread around the whole Western Desert. In these phase E-M78 was according to the analist of Yfull.com mutated to E-V22 (9900-7200 ybp). So the old patriarch of E-V22 is to be placed in the Western Desert. E-V22 is with 22% of the population in Bahariya (Western Desert) the highest of whole Egypt (14% in the Delta).


Changing climate: desertification, move to the Nile

The humid phase in 5600 BC (7600 ybp) was followed by a desertification of the Sahara, spurred the migration tot he Nile. This corresponds with the Neolithization of Egypt at that time: ‘In the Nile Valley, the Saharian met and mixed with the descendants of the South Western Asian Neolithic population responsible for the introduction of the Southwest Asian agricultural tradition into the Nile Valley….’ (Peter Bellwood 2005).
Allison Smith (2009): ‘The prime Northeast African haplogroup E candidate related to the arrival of farmers and/or pastoralists from the Levant is undated E-M34. E-V12(xV32) and E-V22 may well represent local adaptation.’


Neolithization: founder effect along the Nile

The changing weather conditions, people moving to the Nile, and starting with forms of agriculture and sedentary life style counts for the whole area. Along the Nile within a relative short time, a few hundreds years, there where 7 mutations (subbranches) within the E-V22 markers (Y2530_2 and PH2818). This occurred about 7300 ybp. The migration from the Western Desert to the Nile and the development of a new kind of life style are mayor triggers for the different mutations of E-V22 and the founder effect of it.

T-zone

The spread of E-V22 descendants reaches a wide span. It’s like a T zone.
Vertical: Egypt and the Southern Levant in the centre and Southwards to Horn of Africa. This is the oldest spread with the highest percentages up to 88% of the Saho in Eritrea.
Horizontal: From Portugal in the west till Pakistan in the East, modest or low percentages around 5% (but mostly beneath).


Spread to the Levant

E-V22 spread from the Western Desert heartland (nowadays 30% ) to the Nile Delta (nowadays 14% ) and into the Southern Levant (nowadays 6,9%). The Levant corridor is one of the oldest “hubs” of human kind. From early on it’s an important bridge, with bidirectional movements, between Northeastern Africa and Southwest Asia.
The migration of E-V22 into the Nile Delta and the Southern Levant is associated with the different Neolithic cultures of the Nubian/Egypt area and in the Southern Levant. The Nile functioned as an ancient highway also for migrating people.


Argonauts of the Gulf and Mediterranean

In the Levant E-V22 split up. Some took the way to the right into the Arabic Peninsula. Others took the way to the left and went into the Mediterraenen. It’s quite striking that the spread to the Mediterranean and to the Gulf was by seafaring people (Greek: Argonauts). The spread in both regions is especially in areas around the sea and islands.
The Neolithic of the Levant was close linked tot he Ubaid culture in Mesopotamia. Alicia M Cadenas (2008): “Recent archaeological finds supports a trading relationship between Mesopotamia and the Arabian Gulf region dating back to the Al Ubaid Period (~7000 ybp) as evidenced by the excavation of Ubai pottery from Mesopotamia in UAE. Ancient maritime trade routes linking Mesopotamia to the Indus Valley included Dilmun (the island of Bahrain) and Magan (in the southeastern tip of the Arabian Peninsula). It is possible hat the close ties between Mesopotamia with both the Nile River Valley and the ancient Persian Gulf region during the Neolithic helped disseminate these haplogroups.”

Fertile crescent

“The majority of the UAE M78 representatives belong to the E3b1a3-V22 clade (6.7%)…ts dispersal may have occurred early, the first to spread the E3b1a-M78 chromosomes to North Africa and then the Near East.” E-V22 in the Arabic Peninsula is mostly characterized by the subbranche E-L674.
For the Mediterranean area I see a similar development. Paschou (2014) stated that a“maritime coastal route was mainly used for the migration of Neolithic farmers to Europe”. In other words, there was a certain kind of island and coastal hopping of Neolithic colonist.
Followed by Voskarides (2016): “E-V22 and E-M34 are common in the Southern Levant, Sicily, Algeria, and in Egypt and rare in Europe. These lineages, like J2b-M205, could mirror a Pottery Neolithic movement to Cyprus from the Southern Levant (Pearson R 2 coefficient of correlation of E- M34 to longitude: 0.164, p = 0.003)” On of the earliest spread to the Mediterranean is the the so called Impressed (or Cordial) Ware (7000-5500 ybp). The spread to the Mediterranean could be in several waves up until the so called Phoenicians (3500-2500 ybp).
 
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176168300_3844016132314373_421668395902436232_n.jpg
 
this would be interesting maybe they carried a lot of basal euroasian ancestery
20 samples from Qatar- from neolithic to late pre-islamic period



PB2800 - Human populations and demographics in Qatar from the Neolithic to the Late Iron Age.

Author Block: A. D'Aurelio1, M. Baldoni2,3, F. R. Vempalli1, F. De Angelis2, F. Sakal4, F. Al-Naimi4, M. Al-Hashmi1, K. Wang1, L. Wang1, G. Wang1, O. Soloviov1, F. Castorina5, C. Martínez-Labarga2, S. Tomei1; 1Integrated Genomics Services, Res. Dept., Sidra Med., Doha, Qatar, 2Dept. of Biology, Univ. of Rome Tor Vergata, Rome, Italy, 3PhD Program in Evolutionary Biology and Ecology, Dept. of Biology, Univ. of Rome Tor Vergata, Rome, Italy, 4Dept. of Archaeology, Qatar Museums, Doha, Qatar, 5Dept. of Earth Sci., Univ. of Rome Sapienza, Rome, Qatar

Motivation: Despite the production of genetic data related to the Middle East and Qatar specifically is increasing dramatically, a critical unmet research and public need relies on the study of the prehistorical societies living in this region of the World. Recent archaeological studies have discovered thousands of prehistoric burials that represent a great opportunity to investigate the population dynamics and sociocultural changes in prehistorical Qatari societies. The archaeological record has been the only way by which the Qatari prehistoric populations have been researched. Here we have applied the study of ancient DNA (aDNA) to understand the origin, migration patterns, genetic relationships, admixtures, kinship, and changes in prehistorical Qatari societies.

Material and methods: We performed aDNA analyses on 20 samples selected by taking into account preservation status and availability of either tooth or petrous bone. The same samples were also submitted for radiocarbon dating and isotopic and morphological analysis.
DNA was extracted in a dedicated clean lab facility starting from 50-135 mg of bone powder, following a silica-based protocol tailored to aDNA, modified by adding a further digestion step. Illumina double-stranded libraries were prepared and treated with partial uracil-DNA-glycosylase (UDG) to prevent nucleotide misincorporation.
Final NGS libraries were sequenced through NovaSeq 6000 System on an S4 Flow Cell.
Using a combination of bioinformatics tools, we performed quality control analysis on the sequenced reads, selecting endogenous reads with map and base PRHED score quality above 30.

Results: According to the radiocarbon dating, our samples cover a transect of time going from the Neolithic to the Late Pre-Islamic period (7.4-1.4 kya). We report quality control scores on the sequencing data and their correlation with sample type, burial location and burial time frame. Even though the DNA preservation was mined by detrimental environmental factors, we tried estimating ancestries from both multi-locus genotype data and model-based approaches.

Conclusions: To the best of our knowledge, our study represents the first attempt to analyze aDNA in the Arabian Peninsula. We successfully retrieved aDNA sequences from human samples older than 1500 years excavated in Qatar. We believe that our results have the potential to pave the way for further paleogenetic studies in the region.
This work was supported by a grant from the Qatar National Research Fund (NPRP10-0208-170411). The contents are solely the responsibility of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official views of the Qatar National Research Fund.
 
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For the Basal Eurasian and haplogroup E debate we need samples from the Neolithic and Pre-Neolithic, because it is absolutely clear that by the Bronze Age J1 dominated Semitic groups settled the region.
 
For the Basal Eurasian and haplogroup E debate we need samples from the Neolithic and Pre-Neolithic, because it is absolutely clear that by the Bronze Age J1 dominated Semitic groups settled the region.

there is also a leak in anthrogenica we should have soon ancient dna from arabia (bronze iron age periods)(y)
( you probably saw it as a member there
i am sharing it here for people who are not members in anthrogenica)

here are the supposed results in the leak in anthrogenica:
Unofficial results from the Arabian Peninsula in the Bronze and Iron Ages

According to the news published on Twitter
Based on a study that will be released in the future (probably from Max Planck).
A ancient sample from the Bronze Age in Khaybar (saudi arabia) >> Y haplogroup T
And a ancient sample from Yemen from the Iron Age has >>Y haplogroup J1
And two ancient samples from Socotra Island in Yemen >> Y haplogroup J1 and J2
 
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