Society Abortion ban in Poland?

Angela

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I think the Lower House voted against it yesterday. More of these horror stories and attacks on civil liberties to come in the future though. Catholic church is really chocking this country.
 
Even children born of rape are a problem for me. I don't know if I could abort such a child, but I wouldn't force another woman to bear it against her will. That's another reason why any woman who is raped should immediately go to an emergency room; not only can they do a rape kit for future identification, but it's just standard procedure to do a d-and-c. No need for agonizing decisions.

Late term abortion is an entirely different issue.

I'm surprised the Church still has so much say, though. I thought church attendance, etc., had gone way down.
 
I have to say, I do not get the obsession of Christian fundamentalists (and it is a form of Christian fundamentalism, let there be no doubt about it) with abortion, especially because there is zero basis in scripture. The bigotry involved here becomes also very apparent that the same people who are against abortion at the same time care preciously little about the life that is already born. If you're forbidding abortion in the case of rape, what you are effectively doing is blaming and punishing the victim.
 
It wasn't proposed by the Church to begin with.

It was created by Catholic Family & Human Rights Institute "Ordo Iuris", a foundation established by conservative lawyers.

Yesterday the spokesman of the Episcopate of Poland said that bishops oppose this initiative, because the Church is against punishing women for abortion. On Monday there were conflicting demonstrations against and for this project throughout the country.

The Lower House has already rejected this bill in its entirety (358 votes against, and IIRC only 32 votes in support).

So, as usually, the thing has been overblown in Western media.

Meanwhile thousands of women are getting stoned to death in the Middle East on a daily basis and the media tells us that we cannot intervene or comment, because it is their own unique cultural tradition, and there are no inferior cultures, just different ones.
 
It wasn't proposed by the Church to begin with.

It was created by Catholic Family & Human Rights Institute "Ordo Iuris", a foundation established by conservative lawyers.

Yesterday the spokesman of the Episcopate of Poland said that bishops oppose this initiative, because the Church is against punishing women for abortion. On Monday there were conflicting demonstrations against and for this project throughout the country.

The Lower House has already rejected this bill in its entirety (358 votes against, and IIRC only 32 votes in support).

So, as usually, the thing has been overblown in Western media.

I would like to point out that its not exactly overblown. If we were talking about Europe, I might agree with you, but you have to consider the bizarre proportions that the so-called "pro-life versus pro-choice" debate in the United States is taking. Against the backdrop of that, media interest into this happening in Poland is kind predictable, now isn't it?

Meanwhile thousands of women are getting stoned to death in the Middle East on a daily basis and the media tells us that we cannot intervene or comment, because it is their own unique cultural tradition, and there are no inferior cultures, just different ones.

Really, "thousands of women per day"?
 
Really, "thousands of women per day"?
Unfortunately, he was never guilty of being objective. "The blacks are coming, Muslims are coming, socialists are coming, make Christian children, kill the old, close the borders, protect the purity and the whiteness, the world is collapsing!!!" Pure madness.
 
Meanwhile thousands of women are getting stoned to death in the Middle East on a daily basis and the media tells us that we cannot intervene or comment, because it is their own unique cultural tradition, and there are no inferior cultures, just different ones.

1.) "Thousands of women are getting stoned in the Middle East on a daily basis?" Where are your sources for this assertion? I'll sit here patiently and wait for you to come back with nothing [factual].

2.) Though there is no evidence that "thousands of women" in the Middle East are stoned on a "daily basis," stonings do occur and even one person being stoned every so often is barbaric and a step too far. But your other unsubstantiated assertion that the "media" tells us that we can not "intervene or comment," and especially regarding the latter, is utterly preposterous and untrue. Please cite just ONE, ONE Western media source that argues for cultural relativism concerning stonings. Again, I'll sit here and patiently await your return with nothing [factual].

3.) Do you people do anything other than use strawman arguments, false equivalencies and/or flat out lies in order to substantiate your flimsy arguments?
 
LeBrok,

The blacks are coming, Muslims are coming

They are free to come as long as there is proper screening of all would-be immigrants before they enter.

Jason Richwine in his dissertation had some good ideas related to how states could handle immigration.

socialists are coming

Socialists came twice. National socialists invaded in 1939, then international ones liberated in 1945.

"Liberation" lasted until 1990, huh.

============================

As for stonings:

You disagree that it's thousands per day, but do you have reliable data on the scale of this problem?

How many people are getting stoned to death each day in war-torn Syria and Iraq, in the Islamic State?

I don't think that ISIS administration is collecting such statistics. At least they aren't publishing this data.

OK maybe it isn't thousands on each day, but there were some days when such mass executions occured.

Wanderlust,

Please cite just ONE, ONE Western media source that argues for cultural relativism concerning stonings.

The Young Turks ??? I don't remember them explicitly condemning Muslim stonings in their show.

And after the New Year's Eve Rapes in Germany they also made numerous excuses for what happened.

You might also watch this Gavin McInnes vs. Feminist discussion, where she makes excuses about barbarism in Middle Eastern societies, refusing to explicitly criticize their treatment of women, because they are a different culture and have their own standards:

 
LeBrok,

Poland doesn't need additional Muslim or African immigrants, as it has already welcomed over 1 million Ukrainian refugees and economic migrants since 2014. I think this data is true because recently I very often hear people speaking Ukrainian or Russian in my city, so there must be a lot of them here. They aren't causing any problems. Despite coming from a war-torn country, they want to work, not to collect welfare. Here some opinions of Ukrainian immigrants about life in Poland: http://wyborcza.pl/duzyformat/1,127...-czysto-piekne-domki-trawniki-a-urzednik.html. IIRC even Jean-Claude Juncker recently admitted that Poland is now hosting almost as many refugees as Germany - the only difference being that we have the ones from Ukraine, not the ones from Syria or Iraq.

Refugees should seek asylum in the nearest safe country - so for example refugees from Syria should seek asylum in Turkey.

Nothing justifies their exodus from Turkey all the way to North-Western Europe.

Ukrainians instead of going all the way to Sweden are doing exactly what they should, staying in the nearest safe country.

This indicates that they are coming to find safety and some work, not free money.

There will be even more of Ukrainian migrants, because Ukraine is now officially the poorest country in Europe (in 2014 they were richer than at least Moldova, Kosovo and a few more, but since the outbreak of war, their GDP is declining and they have reached the bottom).

Hard to believe that in 1990 Poland and Ukraine had similar level of per capita GDP.
 
Unfortunately, he was never guilty of being objective. "The blacks are coming, Muslims are coming, socialists are coming, make Christian children, kill the old, close the borders, protect the purity and the whiteness, the world is collapsing!!!" Pure madness.
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Fertility_statistics
The highest annual total of live births for the EU-28 was recorded in 1964, with 7.7 million live births. From the 1960s up to the beginning of the 21st century, the number of live births in the EU-28 declined from 7.5 million to a low of 5.0 million in 2002 (see Figure 1). This was followed by a modest rebound in the number of live births, with a high of 5.5 million children born in the EU-28 in 2008, in turn followed by further annual reductions.

In 2014, the total fertility rate in the EU-28 was 1.58 live births per woman. The EU-28's fertility rate increased from a low of 1.46 in 2001 to a high of 1.62 in 2010, subsequently followed by a slight decrease to 1.58 in 2014.
 
Sustained below-replacement fertility has become commonplace, and Europe has been
a leader in the trend towards low and very low fertility. Europe also witnessed in the last 15 years the
emergence of unprecedented low fertility levels with a total fertility rate (TFR) at or below 1.3 children per
woman. Kohler et al. (2002) have labeled these patterns as lowest-low fertility to emphasize the dramatic
implications of these unprecedentedly low levels of fertility: for instance, if they persist over a long time in
a contemporary low-mortality context, TFR levels at or below 1.3 imply a reduction of the annual number
of births by 50% and a halving of the population size in less than 45 years.

http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~hpkohler/papers/Low-fertility-in-Europe-final.pdf


This neoclassical economic theory predicts
a countercyclical association between economic
growth and fertility: this means that fertility tends
to drop in times of economic progress. This has
been empirically confirmed by the observation
that traditionally, most countries have been characterised
by a negative association between economic
development and fertility.
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2011/RAND_MG1080.pdf

 
You disagree that it's thousands per day, but do you have reliable data on the scale of this problem?

How many people are getting stoned to death each day in war-torn Syria and Iraq, in the Islamic State?

lol Are you daft? It's astounding that I criticize you of consistently relying on logical fallacies in order to bolster your shoddy arguments and YET AGAIN, without any sense of irony or self awareness, you commit yet ANOTHER logical fallacy by way of argumentum ad ignorantiam. When you put forth an assertion, the burden of proof lies with YOU to defend your claim and not with the person criticizing it. And you're in Law School, right? lol I don't think you're clever enough to successfully pull it off but keep at it kid!

The Young Turks ??? I don't remember them explicitly condemning Muslim stonings in their show.

And after the New Year's Eve Rapes in Germany they also made numerous excuses for what happened.

I specifically asked you to cite ONE Western media source that argued in favor of cultural relativism concerning stonings. And as expected, you failed. Claiming that journalists at the Young Turks don't "explicitly" condemn Muslim stonings is not the same thing as proving where they have argued in favor of cultural relativism concerning stonings.

Furthermore, I'm a subscribed member of TYT for some years now, I've seen the bulk of their content, and without a doubt, they have been extremely critical of Islam, along with other religions (most of their journalists are Atheists), and especially its more heinous teachings and practices.

And concerning the sexual assaults on New Year's in Cologne, I'm going to prove that you're either a blatant liar or have English language difficulties because it could not be more clear how they regarded what took place. There was no equivocating on the wrongness of what happened; though they acknowledged that what may be socially normalized behavior in certain cultures is not so in others, they also strongly stated that sexual assault (groping, touching, etc...) is unacceptable regardless of where you're from or what you believe--that such behavior is even unacceptable in their OWN cultures and countries. You people just seem to be allergic to truth and reality and it's exhausting.


You might also watch this Gavin McInnes vs. Feminist discussion, where she makes excuses about barbarism in Middle Eastern societies, refusing to explicitly criticize their treatment of women, because they are a different culture and have their own standards

Absolutely no surprise that you'd cite someone as intellectually dishonest as Gavin McInnes is--all of your tactics seem to come from his playbook > logical fallacies, false equivalencies, strawman arguments, half-truths, quarter-truths, and flat out lies. The woman in the video was, at times, RIGHTFULLY confused, befuddled, flabbergasted and left speechless by his lapses in actual truth and logic.

1.) First of all, she made no excuse for the "barbarism in Middle Eastern societies"; Moreover, discussing the enforcement of hijabs/burkas is not the same thing as discussing the brutality of death by stoning--yet another strawman argument and false equivalency on your part.

2.) Second of all, like any decent, balanced, nuanced, intellectually honest person, she declined to speak on a subject matter of which she was not informed. She didn't just spout unsubstantiated conjecture and flat out lies like someone in yours or Gavin's position would do. Concerning hijabs/burkas, because they are a form of style and self-expression, alongside having religious significance, the "ethics" of the issue becomes stickier and more complex (unlike stonings that are more objectionably and demonstrably wrong). True self-agency for women means that they can choose how they express themselves and what they do with their bodies; and even outside of the Middle East, some women choose to wear hijabs and the like because they subscribe to the corresponding ideals and value systems or even because they like the style and fashion. But it is also true that in some places, Islam is forced upon its women and they have little to no self-agency and subsequently, wearing a hijab/burka is mandatory and not doing so is punishable by death. Religious clothing is an issue that requires a bit more nuance in order to properly dissect and detangle what's "right" or "wrong." Therefore, it's extremely disingenuous to equate taking such a stance on that issue to being equivalent to not denouncing stonings and the like. Seriously, do better.
 
LeBrok,

Poland doesn't need additional Muslim or African immigrants, as it has already welcomed over 1 million Ukrainian refugees and economic migrants since 2014. I think this data is true because recently I very often hear people speaking Ukrainian or Russian in my city, so there must be a lot of them here. They aren't causing any problems. Despite coming from a war-torn country, they want to work, not to collect welfare. Here some opinions of Ukrainian immigrants about life in Poland: http://wyborcza.pl/duzyformat/1,127...-czysto-piekne-domki-trawniki-a-urzednik.html. IIRC even Jean-Claude Juncker recently admitted that Poland is now hosting almost as many refugees as Germany - the only difference being that we have the ones from Ukraine, not the ones from Syria or Iraq.

Refugees should seek asylum in the nearest safe country - so for example refugees from Syria should seek asylum in Turkey.

Nothing justifies their exodus from Turkey all the way to North-Western Europe.

Ukrainians instead of going all the way to Sweden are doing exactly what they should, staying in the nearest safe country.

This indicates that they are coming to find safety and some work, not free money.

There will be even more of Ukrainian migrants, because Ukraine is now officially the poorest country in Europe (in 2014 they were richer than at least Moldova, Kosovo and a few more, but since the outbreak of war, their GDP is declining and they have reached the bottom).

Hard to believe that in 1990 Poland and Ukraine had similar level of per capita GDP.
I have no idea why your brain wandered away to far away land, if my argument was about your lack of objectivity and being riddled with fear to the point of depression. Do you have any idea why you exaggerate so much, why you put so much "colour" into your arguments, and to describe world in general? Why do you even think it is going to work when talking to smart people?
This makes me worry more about your state of mind than about the world you are colouring.
 
Wanderlust,

This discussion is a waste of time, and as always you focus on nitpicking.

If I wrote dozens instead of thousands, you would argue that it is several.

the burden of proof lies with YOU to defend your claim

Yeah, but I'm not going to defend it, because I deliberately exaggerated.

This is what you leftists are doing all the time, so why can't I do it once?
 
LeBrok,

The blacks are coming

Blacks have major shortages when it comes to the ability of abstract thinking, according to Dr Eugene Valberg:


Blacks also have a much lower average cranial capacity than other races. The Anti-Racist Gould tried to cover-up this fact, but a 2011 study confirmed that Morton's measurements were correct and that Blacks have a much smaller average brain size:

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/artic...al.pbio.1001071

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/...ll/474419a.html

http://www.livinganthropologically.com/201...easuring-gould/

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/14/science/14skull.html?_r=0

http://michael1988.com/?p=203

You could argue how much impact on IQ does brain size have, but you cannot deny that Gould deliberately falsified data in order to claim that Blacks lag behind because of "evil Whiteys", "racist oppression", etc., and not due to their smaller brains.

Davide Piffer in his 2015 "Estimating the genotypic intelligence of populations..." also shows that Blacks are genetically less intelligent than Whites. The gap is not as huge as current African scores on IQ tests would indicate, but it is still pretty large:

https://thewinnower.com/papers/esti...mpact-of-socioeconomic-factors-and-migrations

So indeed, it is worrying that the least intelligent population currently has the highest rate of natural growth:

http://static1.techinsider.io/image...al-population-projections-centered-legend.png

regional-population-projections-centered-legend.png
 
Wanderlust,

This discussion is a waste of time, and as always you focus on nitpicking.

If I wrote dozens instead of thousands, you would argue that it is several.



Yeah, but I'm not going to defend it, because I deliberately exaggerated.

This is what you leftists are doing all the time, so why can't I do it once?

Lol Please don't go into law or anything law adjacent. I beg you. Unless you're litigating utter idiots of the highest order, you will embarrass yourself.

I don't focus on "nitpicking," I focus of nuance and complexity, something you seem to be literally incapable of doing. I've only ever seen such mental and moral rigidity in autists and those with Asperger's Syndrome; it's remarkable. I honestly believe you can't help yourself, but that doesn't mean I won't challenge/debunk/degrade/belittle the moronic ideologies you subscribe to for the sake of the more "vulnerable" who make be watching.

No one is deliberately exaggerating the things you say; you, yourself, make exaggerated statements and then are called out on it. It's very simple. Speak the truth and there will be no problems. You won't defend your claim because YOU CAN NOT. Stop lying. It's beneath the intelligence of the many smart people on this forum.

LeBrok,



Blacks have major shortages when it comes to the ability of abstract thinking, according to Dr Eugene Valberg:


Blacks also have a much lower average cranial capacity than other races. The Anti-Racist Gould tried to cover-up this fact, but a 2011 study confirmed that Morton's measurements were correct and that Blacks have a much smaller average brain size:

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/artic...al.pbio.1001071

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/...ll/474419a.html

http://www.livinganthropologically.com/201...easuring-gould/

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/14/science/14skull.html?_r=0

http://michael1988.com/?p=203

You could argue how much impact on IQ does brain size have, but you cannot deny that Gould deliberately falsified data in order to claim that Blacks lag behind because of "evil Whiteys", "racist oppression", etc., and not due to their smaller brains.

Davide Piffer in his 2015 "Estimating the genotypic intelligence of populations..." also shows that Blacks are genetically less intelligent than Whites. The gap is not as huge as current African scores on IQ tests would indicate, but it is still pretty large:

https://thewinnower.com/papers/esti...mpact-of-socioeconomic-factors-and-migrations

So indeed, it is worrying that the least intelligent population currently has the highest rate of natural growth:

http://static1.techinsider.io/image...al-population-projections-centered-legend.png

LOL The day you quote studies from those who are VETTED, SERIOUS, and RESPECTED within the scientific community, who don't have racist, bigoted, skewed agendas and give speeches at conferences that endorse White Supremacy or are published in magazines/journals that endorse White Supremacy, is the day when you will be taken seriously. Until then, you all are nothing but a joke. And funniest of all, you are LOSING "the war." The human trajectory is moving more towards diversity and inclusiveness, whether you like it or not. Sucks to be you, I suppose.

And you should be the LAST person on EARTH to ever speak about the inability of other people to think abstractly. That most certainly is NOT your strong suit. :LOL:
 
Wanderlust,

You and other guys like you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster Of Racial Equality:

 

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