Genetic study The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2000-year archeogenomic time transec

torzio said:
was their not more of these people under the kingdom of Naples from 16th century onwards ?
I have seen numbers of 40000 plus
Click to expand...
In Sicily
" La loro consistenza numerica andava da circa 7.500 unità originarie a 8.234 nel 1570 ed a 8.958 nel 1589. E questo quando la popolazione complessiva dell'isola non arrivava in quegli anni alle 800.000 unita."
The 7,500 WAS given in 1550.
In 1542 Southern Mainland Italy: 5775 people.
So in 1550 there were around 13,000-14,000.

Their population did grew over 40,000 within time of course.

Some other waves came in next centuries.
 
Jovialis said:
IMHO, I think the Aegean_IA samples from the upcoming paper on Campania, as well as the samples shown in Olalde et al. 2021 indicate to me that this source was in the South, prior to the imperial era. When they became part of Rome, it was Italics/Etruscans that pulled them north, and other northern sources like Lombards and Normans, that contributed to pulling them North/East. Which is why South Italy is "North/east" of the Aegean_IA today. Likewise, when these people traveled up the boot, they pulled the people there towards the south as well.

68hqRhy.png
Click to expand...


Doesn't the new paper show Iron-Age southern italians plotting with other Italics/Etruscans? Why would south italy be like Aegean IA beforehand? They were just italics with some Greek settlement later on.
 
Did someone check if Etruscan G2a subclades and the recent samples from Croatian Encrusted Pottery Culture G2a subclades have relations?
 
Hawk said:
Did someone check if Etruscan G2a subclades and the recent samples from Croatian Encrusted Pottery Culture G2a subclades have relations?
Click to expand...
The types from the paper on Etruscans:
- 7 G2a2b2a-P303;
- 1 G2a2b2b-PF3359 (the type found in Broion).
790-550 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan G2a2b2b1a1a PF3378
770-540 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan G2a2b2a1a1b L497/S317
770-520 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu G2a2b2a1 L140/S316

396-216 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr G2a2b2a1a1c1a1 CTS5990/Z1903
350-100 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan_MAS001 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1 CTS5990/Z1903

670-775 CE S.Italy_Venosa G2a2b2a1 L140/S316
672-800 CE S.Italy_Venosa_related G2a2b2a P303/Page108/PF3340/S135/Z765

Undated C.Italy_Etruscan_undate G2a2b2a1a1b1 CTS9737/Z1815
Click to expand...

The types from the paper on Croatia:
- 7 G2a2a-PF3147 (like Ötzi);
- 1 G2a2b2a-P303.
 
ITA_Venosa_EMA,0.1050424,0.1436249,-0.0135226,-0.0436973,0.0116944,-0.0189247,-0.0026859,-0.0041207,0.0030094,0.0223107,0.0020183,0.0027191,-0.0031644,-0.00464,-0.0074646,-0.000682,0.0017136,-0.0048684,-0.0049921,-0.0003751,-0.0026204,-0.0029854,7.04e-05,0.0025993,0.0008039
​
Click to expand...
Venosa average sample:
Distance to:ITA_Venosa_EMA
0.01430933Italian_Campania
0.01729271Italian_Calabria
0.01892498Italian_Basilicata
0.02029252Italian_Apulia
0.02150771Sicilian_East
0.02325459Italian_Jew
0.02350433Italian_Abruzzo
0.02771079Italian_Molise
0.02794914Sicilian_West
0.03255640Italian_Lazio
0.03542975Italian_Umbria
0.03593792Italian_Marche
0.04578576Italian_Tuscany
0.05564931Italian_Piedmont
0.06399863Italian_Liguria
0.06521908Italian_Lombardy
0.06876166Italian_Bergamo
0.07082667Italian_Veneto
0.07601314Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07906500Italian_Northeast
0.08582995Italian_Aosta_Valley

 
ihype02 said:
Venosa average sample:
Distance to:ITA_Venosa_EMA
0.01430933Italian_Campania
0.01729271Italian_Calabria
0.01892498Italian_Basilicata
0.02029252Italian_Apulia
0.02150771Sicilian_East
0.02325459Italian_Jew
0.02350433Italian_Abruzzo
0.02771079Italian_Molise
0.02794914Sicilian_West
0.03255640Italian_Lazio
0.03542975Italian_Umbria
0.03593792Italian_Marche
0.04578576Italian_Tuscany
0.05564931Italian_Piedmont
0.06399863Italian_Liguria
0.06521908Italian_Lombardy
0.06876166Italian_Bergamo
0.07082667Italian_Veneto
0.07601314Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07906500Italian_Northeast
0.08582995Italian_Aosta_Valley

Click to expand...


might as well call sample...Samnite ..........Brutti, Lucania , Campania, benevento all samnite lands
 
ihype02 said:
Venosa average sample:
Distance to:ITA_Venosa_EMA
0.01430933Italian_Campania
0.01729271Italian_Calabria
0.01892498Italian_Basilicata
0.02029252Italian_Apulia
0.02150771Sicilian_East
0.02325459Italian_Jew
0.02350433Italian_Abruzzo
0.02771079Italian_Molise
0.02794914Sicilian_West
0.03255640Italian_Lazio
0.03542975Italian_Umbria
0.03593792Italian_Marche
0.04578576Italian_Tuscany
0.05564931Italian_Piedmont
0.06399863Italian_Liguria
0.06521908Italian_Lombardy
0.06876166Italian_Bergamo
0.07082667Italian_Veneto
0.07601314Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07906500Italian_Northeast
0.08582995Italian_Aosta_Valley
Click to expand...


G25 Italian averages aren't completely accurate.
 
Angela said:
It was an interesting choice to plot Etruscans on a West Eurasian background. They don't seem to have done one on a European dataset. (It would be interesting if someone could produce one for comparison.

However, they did do one on an Italian dataset, and it can be found in the Supplement. They seem to plot closest to people from Bologna from what I can see.

7Ihy3fj.png
[/IMG]

Another interesting graphic is the one below. It's based on qpAdm. They're showing an increase in Iranian Neolithic in modern Tuscans versus even Imperial and Early Medieval, yes? Does anyone know where it was explained? There is no possible mass migration which could explain it, to my knowledge.

v77zZox.png
[/IMG]
Click to expand...

On the Italian dataset,the Etruscans resemble NW Italians (Brescia, Como, Savona etc)but with a certain pull towards Sardinians (Olbia/Nuoro).
The modern Bolognese seem very variable, from CEU to Sicilian-like.
 
Vallicanus said:
On the Italian dataset,the Etruscans resemble NW Italians (Brescia, Como, Savona etc)but with a certain pull towards Sardinians (Olbia/Nuoro).
The modern Bolognese seem very variable, from CEU to Sicilian-like.
Click to expand...

It's quite clear, since Di Gaetano 2012, that the Italian samples are not always completely accurate, as is also the case with some sets of Greeks (in the sample of Greek Macedonia, there were even some Pontic Greeks). There may also be more technical explanations due to various factors like the genotyping, not just the inaccurate starting sampling. The Etruscans as well as the Latins maintain higher WHG values, to find those values so high you have to go fishing in the linguistic minorities of northern Italy, who obviously have an extra input of recent northern European DNA.

I've seen the private results of Emilian individuals and they are where you'd expect them to be, intermediate between Lombardy and Tuscany, with the Bolognese usually closer to the Tuscans. Then there are exceptions everywhere, with some Apennine specimens, perhaps due to inbreeding occurring in the smaller, more isolated communities, both in the Emilian and Tuscan side going further north.
 
Pax Augusta said:
It's quite clear, since Di Gaetano 2012, that the Italian samples are not always completely accurate, as is also the case with some sets of Greeks (in the sample of Greek Macedonia, there were even some Pontic Greeks). There may also be more technical explanations due to various factors like the genotyping, not just the inaccurate starting sampling. The Etruscans as well as the Latins maintain higher WHG values, to find those values so high you have to go fishing in the linguistic minorities of northern Italy, who obviously have an extra input of recent northern European DNA.

I've seen the private results of Emilian individuals and they are where you'd expect them to be, intermediate between Lombardy and Tuscany, with the Bolognese usually closer to the Tuscans. Then there are exceptions everywhere, with some Apennine specimens, perhaps due to inbreeding occurring in the smaller, more isolated communities, both in the Emilian and Tuscan side going further north.
Click to expand...


Are you still playing around that linguistics have a value on ethnicity as part of people

Please let me know when the non-indo european Etruscan language became a Indo-european language
 
Pax Augusta said:
Can anyone here explain to me Torzio's question how it relates to what was being discussed.
Click to expand...

That's mistake number one; you're still reading his posts.
 
Which of the 48 imperial samples from Antonio et al 2019 are used in this study? It seems they are only selecting a couple of them to utilize to construct their version of Imperial Rome samples. There is only 2 samples in all of the 48 that are North African-like, it seems pretty lop-sided that they would include both while eliminating so many of the others.
 
Jovialis said:
Which of the 48 imperial samples from Antonio et al 2019 are used in this study? It seems they are only selecting a couple of them to utilize to construct their version of Imperial Rome samples. There is only 2 samples in all of the 48 that are North African-like, it seems pretty lop-sided that they would include both while eliminating so many of the others.
Click to expand...

None of the 48 Imperial samples is used in this study, they used just the 6 the found. I can partially understand why they wanted to rely on samples found not in Rome but in Tuscany in order to speak about Tuscany, but given that they have verified that Tuscany wasn't much different from Rome both before and after the imperial period, and given the paucity of just 6 samples, I hold they ought to have integrated the other 48 samples in their analysis.
 
Leopoldo Leone said:
None of the 48 Imperial samples is used in this study, they used just the 6 the found. I can partially understand why they wanted to rely on samples found not in Rome but in Tuscany in order to speak about Tuscany, but given that they have verified that Tuscany wasn't much different from Rome both before and after the imperial period, and given the paucity of just 6 samples, I hold they ought to have integrated the other 48 samples in their analysis.
Click to expand...

You are right, thanks.
 
Let's take a look at 5 of the 6 samples. (I don't seem to have ETR016)

These people are mostly C6, with only one sample being C5, and the other being a North African-mixed outlier.

Maybe if this study bothered to examine the genetic variation of the so-called Imperial cluster, they would see that C6 was present in the Iron age. Two even matches close to R437, for God sake!

Distance to:C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_262-424CE:TAQ021
3.65334094C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_Tribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
4.97456531C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
5.18260552C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
5.70495399C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
6.04666024C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
6.28720129C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
6.57902728C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
6.65725920C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi
6.71589160C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
6.98328003C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropolis
7.02547507C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
7.26534239C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R58_Villa_Magna
7.33377802C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
7.65644173C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
7.96656764C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
8.01634580C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
8.20192660C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
8.33453058C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
8.54786523C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R32_Mausole_di_Augusto
8.69293966C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R137_Marcellino_&_Pietro
8.70378653C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R30_Mausole_di_Augusto
8.72009174C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
8.73635508C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R53_Villa_Magna
8.78846972C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropolis
8.91677072C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria

Distance to:C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_89-236CE:TAQ020
4.22571887C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R36_Celio
4.31196011C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R111_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
5.71508530C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
6.04187885C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria
6.30849427C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
6.36097477C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
6.41825521C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1287_Cancelleria
6.51541250C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R970_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
6.83435440C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
6.93213531C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1285_Cancelleria
7.00451997C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
7.12097606C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
7.76882230C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
8.44433538C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
8.45839819C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R1549_Monterotondo
8.71862374C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna
8.80415243C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
9.27257785C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
9.40364291C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
9.58771610C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
9.69825758C7_Iron_Age_European:R1_(Protovillanovan)_Martinsicuro
9.83711340C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
9.94152403C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
10.02607600C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
10.34189054C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropolis

Distance to:C.Italy_Imperial:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosseto_Tuscany)_400-530CE:MAS003
7.72047278C3_Iron_Age_N_African/Euro-Mix:R475_(Etruscan)_Civitavecchia
8.71365021C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
8.89276672C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1287_Cancelleria
9.07572587C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
9.62520130C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
9.93343344C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_Tribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
10.17619772C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria
10.30015048C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
10.30794354C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
10.45892442C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
10.58182876C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
10.58912650C3_Imperial_North_African:R80_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
10.72016791C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1285_Cancelleria
10.76918753C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropolis
10.82503118C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
11.26164730C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi
11.38913956C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R111_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
11.47918116C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R36_Celio
11.57820366C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
11.66526039C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R45_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
11.79233649C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R32_Mausole_di_Augusto
11.82417862C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
12.06321682C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
12.10252866C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
12.33378287C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

Distance to:C.Italy_Imperial:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosseto_Tuscany)_240-380CE:MAS002
2.96464163C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R81_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
4.41155301C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R41_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
4.43072229C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R134_Marcellino_&_Pietro
4.49097985C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R34_Mausole_di_Augusto
5.13506572C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R115_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
5.33598163C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R66_ANAS
5.45977106C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R133_Marcellino_&_Pietro
5.51823341C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1545_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
5.83553768C5_Iron_Age_Eastern_Mediterranean:R850_(Latini)_Ardea
5.91614740C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1543_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
5.96332961C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R123_Casale_del_Dolce
6.16414633C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R39_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
6.17226863C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R50_Centocelle_Necropolis
6.54462375C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R40_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
6.85520970C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R51_Centocelle_Necropolis
7.11766816C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R73_ANAS
7.13604232C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1548_Monterotondo
7.20874469C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R75_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
7.60957949C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R130_Marcellino_&_Pietro
7.64296408C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R114_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
7.67714791C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R72_ANAS
8.11841733C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R30_Mausole_di_Augusto
8.52355560C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R70_ANAS
8.78526038C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R137_Marcellino_&_Pietro
9.15473102C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro

Distance to:ETR001
3.08917465C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_Tribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
3.12755496C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
4.03565360C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
4.13444071C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
4.93768164C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.00859262C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
5.05356310C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.56285898C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
6.02139519C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
6.29034975C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropolis
6.51112126C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropolis
6.52214689C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
6.66137373C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
6.98725983C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
7.02551777C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
7.25305453C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
7.88702098C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna
7.93834366C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
8.01208462C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
8.17496789C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria
8.30575704C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
8.45656550C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
8.47171765C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R111_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
8.53086748C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
8.58506261C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R137_Marcellino_&_Pietro
 
So, how does this correlate with archeological records, who were the Central European Urnfielders which the Proto-Villanovan culture was supposedly a descendeant of?

If all Etruscan R1b and G2a lines were from Early Bronze Age then who were the Latte Bronze Age Urnfielders, some other Italic tribes?
 
Hawk said:
So, how does this correlate with archeological records, who were the Central European Urnfielders which the Proto-Villanovan culture was supposedly a descendeant of?

If all Etruscan R1b and G2a lines were from Early Bronze Age then who were the Latte Bronze Age Urnfielders, some other Italic tribes?
Click to expand...

Hard to say, urnfielders practiced incineration, there will always be a shortage of data for the final bronze. Although J2b2-L283 seems to have remained a unicum, for me it arrived during the Protovillanovan in the Etruscans. And we have to wait for the analysis of the Italics and all that. Basically there is still a lack of data for a very large part of Iron Age Italy.
 
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