Turkish Dna, Research of Haplogroups C, E, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R and T

Dalmat said:

Serf, name of your nation is based on social status.Stop with the word games!

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Dalmat said:

Really, you are nothing more then product of Peasant Revolt, Serfs are mix of Cincars from Macedonia, Anatolians, Greeks,Bulgarians and Croats, which spread like bacterial infestation during 500 years of Ottoman.

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You speak Croatian, and majority of Serf dialects in Servia are much closer to Bulgarian and Macedonian, than your official dirty Croatian, with inferior grammar.

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Your father of "Servian" language, a Cincar with roots from FJROM named V.S.Karadžić, was expeled from servia by servian nobles because of sightly altered Croatian language for serbian schooling.

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archaiocapilos said:

Hahaha!!! Did you notice that this guy is trying to prove that R, I, J and G origin from Turks? I knew that Turks are not that good with science but he has overcome any other Turk i have known so far.

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iapetoc said:

yeah do you know what they in their country, and in their Blogs,

Baltic people are the Turks of the North,

In fact they call them the Turks of the North,

Al dalmatians Bosnian and Serbs are Turks cause I2a2 is simmilar to some Kurds, so half ex Yugoslavia is Turkish,

they colonise them at ottoman time,

they say that Southern Turks stop in Bosnia and not in south Balkans,

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how yes no said:

no evidence at all...most people in your list are not ethnic Turks... don't mix genetic origin with combination of religious choice with smaller or greater cultural influence...

bosnian muslims are Slavic people with gene flow from Turkey very likely to be less then 1%, with islam religion and with couple of turkish words in everyday use...

haplogroup I in Turkey is concentrated in Kurds and people who origin from Balkan people...

Chuvash are thought to partially origin from Sabar people who are in fact matching location of earlier mentioned Serboi by Ptolemy and Serians by Seneca...Serians according to Seneca lived in Serica which is north China south Sibir area, in Caspian highlands (where Serboi are mentioned before and Sabirs later), on Red sea, and in Europe around Danube...

ethnic origin of Gagauz is not known... so far there are 21 theories about their origin..

I do not see how Cossacks are Turks... in fact, it is a name for culture not for ethnic origin... Cossacks are most pro-Serb oriented people in Russia...in all previous wars in Balkans there were Cossack volounters fighting on Serb side...in fact, there are theories that name Srb had in Russia meaning soldier and that from that soldier caste Cossacks originated....

Magyars are not Huns...Huns have disappeared, but were Mongolian people thus probably haplogroup C, maybe some Q (as we can find some haplogroup Q in Balkan people)...besides levels of haplogroup I in Hungary fits levels in its neighbourhood...in fact, there are many people in Hungary who origin from south Slavs...note also that east and west Hungary that cluster with Serbs/Croats/Romanians/central Ukraine (see http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html) ....that is logical as Slavs lived there before Magyars arrived...

Uzbeks have 7% of haplogroup I... so it is like claiming that Serbs and Irish are same people as both have R1b...

Tatars have 4% of haplogroup I ...40% is just in single place and if you want to find origin of haplogroup I you should study people from that place..as haplogroup I obviously doesnot correlate with Tatars as whole but is only locally present...

btw. nice map...correlates well with Serians mentioned by Seneca...

1st spot you make is south Siberia, 2nd is Serica, 3rd is Caspian highlands (near where Serboi/Serians/Sarbans were recorded), 4th spot in Cappadocia matches people recorded in history Cimmerians/ Syrians in Strabo's writings...5th spot are Serbs...
all those people origin from ancient Serians...

white Syrians are people of Cappadocia in times of Strabo

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...98:book=12:chapter=3&highlight=thracian,eneti

while Cappadocians were called white Syrians
according to Byzantine emperor Serbs origin from white Serbs

now, if you want more details about origin of haplogroup I in Turkey...


it is in my opinion about people who origin from Serians mentioned by Seneca...

Seneca postulates that Serians live in Caucasus, on Red sea, in Serica area (northwest China of today) and in Europe around Danube....


Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Serians produced fleece in Serica in northwest China of today....
Serians from Europe live somewhere around Danube as they dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...
Serians from Caspian mountains who live among Sarmatians are clearly matching Serbi/Serboi recorded by Ptolomy in Sarmatia Asiatica... on same place later we find Sabirs... note that this is next to Amazones and that Strabo speaks of Cappadocians or west Syrians fighting all the way to Amazones...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

we also know that Cappadocians likely origin from Cimmerians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

regarding Serians from Europe...
manuscript of Bavarian geographer records that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it....

now, variants of Kurdish language are:
Kurmanji (northern parts of Kurdistan)
Sorani (further east and south)
Zaza-Gorani
Hewrami (a variation of Gorani)

obviously Sorani is same tribal name as Serians....

one of Sorani dialects is called Garmiani, which is clearly corruption of tribal name Germani

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorani

point is this is place of early settlement of haplogroup I (after initial spread from area of Kerman/Germania/Zermanya in Persia, Iran), from there it spread to Europe in several waves...very early wave as haplogroup I1 Germanic people, next one as I2b Germanic people, next one as I2a proto-Serbs....

to Hebrews this haplogroup I people were known as nations of Gomer and Ripath
... note that person named Gomer is thought to be ancestor of Germanic people, and that Riphat is its son.... according to map we can guess that Ripath is in fact forefather of Paphlagonia Veneti, and in 6th century Jordanes claims that Slavic people are of Venetic race... elsewhere on forum I have shown that early Slavs were clearly dominantly I2a people... note that Gomer is Japhet's son and that Russian primary chronicle claims Slavs to origin from Japhet....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhet

knowing that Veneti completely moved out from Paphlagonia (as written in Strabo's book), we can expect island of genetic imprint of Gomer in Cappadocia and layers of people originating from Gormer and his son Riphat above Black sea...
that is exactly what we see in haplogroup I2a spread

now Veneti from whom according to historian Jordanes early Slavs origin (http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html), lived in Paphlagonia...


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...98:book=12:chapter=3&highlight=thracian,eneti
it is widely accepted Gomer are same people as Cimmerians....



now white Syrians = ancient Cappadocians = Cimmerians = Gimirri = Gomer
gmiri= hero
Kerman/Germania/Zermanya = battle, hero

root word of Serian also hero
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm


Strabo records story of earlier authors that Paphlagonia Eneti were kicked out from Paphlagonia after joint expedition with Cimmerians... now that joint expedition is logical because Eneti/Veneti are sons of Riphat and Riphat is son of Gomer, and Gomer people are Cimmerians....

but, Cimmerians did return to area and settle in Cappadocia, which is where haplogroup I and I2a hotspots are... Greek authors call settlers of Cappadocia white Syrians...which is same tribal name as Serians...

let's compare archeological findings of Cimmerians and of early Slavs

Thraco-Cimmerians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians

early Slavs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs

you can probably add to early Slavs areas also Bohemia/Bavaria as Byzantine emperor claims that Serbs came to Balkan from area Boika where they always lived and that neighbours Frankia.. and also Tribalia or upper Moesia, as Byzantine sources in later times use name Tribalians for Serbs, and Russian primary chronicle puts proto-Slavic people prior to Roman empire spread roughly in Moesia (north and central Serbia and north Bulgaria)...

obviously, Thraco-Cimmerians and early Slavs cover exactly the same area... this area is mostly marked with I2a haplogroup... Cimmerians are in Cappadocia later known as white Syrians, and Slavs are claimed to origin from big state of Zeruiani...
according to byzantine emperor Serbs settled Balkan from land which they call Boika where they also originally lived...Boika is likely land of Boii or Bohemia/Bavaria area where we find toponyms such as Srby and Serviodurum ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Domažlice_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plzeň-South_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing ) ...Both Bavaria and Bohemia are named after Boii who has lived there originally... Boii related tribe are Scordisci...with Thrachanized part of tribe bearing name Serdi...both Serdi and Scordisci lived in Serbia.... interesting coincidences, right?

http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Cimbri/Cimbrians thought to origin from Cimmerians (or Cappadocian in terms of Turkey) have a king whose name is Boiorix or king of Boii....north of Scordisci lived Boii, north most Serbia is Voivodina ...clearly Serbia/Voivodina maps to Scordisci(Serdi)/Boii by root word and geographical orientation... soldier in Slavic languages is "vojnik"/"bojovnik" again root word is Boii... same as root of words Kerman/Germania, Serians and Cimmerians/Gomer...

now, regarding cultural links between Serbs and Kurds
there is circular dance with holding hands, and relation to wolf...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_culture

this is identical circle dance typical for Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolo_(dance)

circle dance with holding hands exist elsewhere, e.g. in I2a1 areas of Iberia it is called Sardana....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana

in nearby Sardinia live Sardinians who are I2a1 people....

we can conclude that circle dance with holding hands is probably predating split of I2a on I2a1 and I2a2... while it is absent in I2b and I1 populations who have split much earlier from haplogroup I core...

tribal names Sardana/Sardinia/Sherdana and Serb origin from same same tribal name

lake in Egypt was named after sea peoples known as Sherdana...this lake is called Serbonian bog or Sirbonis...

back to Serb/Slav/Kurd/Cimmerian/Hettite links...
Serbs are related to wolves...national animal that represents Serbs is wolf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia

Lycia people were related to wolves... at least two leaders of Lycians were called Sarpedon where don might have been title...

word Kurt in Turkish means wolf...
Lycia is same name as for area Lika in Croatia inhabited by both Serbs and Croats... tribal name as Lech (mythical ancestor of Poles) might origin from same word...

btw. key Slavic gods are Perun and Veles

Perun is in fact easily matched to Hurrian Teshub (same God as Zeus) as Teshub's name is in Hati Taru, and in Hititte/Luwian is Tarhun...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor

Similarity of Taru to Germanic Thor indicates that Hati (pre-Hetite people in Asia minor) spoke language alike to Germanic people...
Similarity of Luwian Tarhun to Slavic Perun means that Hittite and/or Luwian people spoke language alike to proto-Balto-Slavic....

let's look at later Gods...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

also look at these words from Thracian dictionary

sabazias ‘free’ [Old-Bulg. svobod' ‘free’].
..
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

clearly, Sabazios is coin word... it is about Saba+ Zeus = Serb God or God of proto-Serbs?

hand gesture used in rituals related of Sabazios

hand gesture used by Serbs (tenis player Novak Djokovic on picture bellow)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_prsta

proofs for Slav/Serb/Serian/Anatolian/Cimmerian/Veneti connection are everywhere....
common denominator is haplogroup I2

ethnic Turks came to Anatolia much later... and in small numbers.. modern Turks are genetically not so much originating from original Turks ... they are genetically cousins to Slavs, Greeks, and other Europeans...this is because Europe was likely settled from Anatolia... and Anatolia still has very old variants of key Europe haplogroups... modern Turks are also related to middle east people due to very long history of living in same country...it is hard to tell what was haplogroup of original Turks...

btw. Robert Salinas Price believes that Iliad and the Odyssey were originally written in Slavic-alike language and only later translated to Greek
http://www.homer.com.mx/index.html

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aynurrzepa said:

Hi, Coming back to Turks or rather Turkic speaking ppl of Europe/Caucasus. How about the Azeris? Look at their Y DNAs. MtDNAs are prevailingly European, with H* the highest 27%, HV 6%, T2 10%, U3 2%, U4 8.33%, U5a 8.33%, K 2%, I 2%, W 4% and X 2%, making it total 71.66% and H5 2%, J 4% W & WS Asian and T1 6% Mid Eastern, in total 12 % non European, 16 % other. Azeris are believed to be of first Iranicised and then Turkisised Caucasian stock wirh easrlier Scythian (various types) and later Persian admixtures. On Y DNA, Azeris have 7% R1a (but not sure which subclade - IE or Turkic), 11 % R1b and 3 % I (indifferentiated). Also 18 % G2 (presumable G2a butmaybe Scythian G1), 20% (in some sourcs 31%) J2 and 12% J1 (however this is not differentiated to see if this is semitic J1c3 or caucasian J1*) . They also have 11% T (red sea) and none of the mongol/east asian haplogroups There is 15 Others and from some sources I read this included the ancient F 11% (which is proto -G, J, I, R, K) and ancient K 11% (pre-R1, from Northern Iran). Basically Azeris carry some most ancient DNAs, most of which are proto-European but they ended up with a Oguz Turkic language related to Ottoman Turkish and Turkmen Turkic, as well a Gagauz. How can such ancient ppl of caucasus/Europe end up with a Altaic language? I read here thatn Ottomans were Caucasian ppl with turkuc language... But did they get it, when? Azeris believe their ancestors Oguz Turks were Caucasoid ppl but how can this be? when did thies group of Caucasoid ppl aquire the Altain language and when?

I also think that the hypothesis of Europeans being turks is wrong and that I came from Mongolia etc. I see it as the carriers of these proto-European Cauasoid haplogroups somehow ended up in Mongolia/Uigurustani as we find from the mummies of the Tarim valley, and it;s their HG that are found in modern Turkic and Mongolic, Tungusic speaking Eurasian populations, not that these HGs were turkic and they mmigrated to Europe! The Scythains were also one of Azeri's ancestors, this is see from historical records as wel as from the genetic tests. Possibly some caucasoid Scythians somehow aquited the Turkic language and they brought it to Caucasus? But how and why did they change their original proto-IndoEuropean language to Turkic? And is it possible Scythians (or at least some of them) were Caucasian speakers? It is also believed that Hurrians did not speak IE but Cauasian language, from Nakh family. And where can I find that Avars spoke a Turkic language? Currently Avars in Caucasus speak a Caucasian language. These Avars are believed to travelled from Subartu to Khwaresm in CA/Turkmenistan and from their to Caucasus (wiki refers). Note Subartu=Sabir? it's known more ppl tavelled from North mesopatamia/Anatolia to Cauasus, Nakh speaking Ers (Hers=Hurrians) wiki refers) being one of them (later became part of Cauacasian Iberia and Caucasian Albania). As per wiki, there is a conneciton between Caucasian Avars and Eurasian Avars as to that the latter stole the Scythian Avar's name and settled in North Caucasus. So is it correct to think Avars were turkic speakers or IE Scythians? And maybe Scythians have more Caucasian roots than we think? Although Iranic. IE languages are differrent from Caucasian which are agglutinative languages just like the Mongol and Altaic, Turkic languages. But if early IE have Caucaisian haplogroups, why not presume Scythians also consisted of cauacasian tribes, not only Turkic and IE? Coming back to Azeris, there is over 40,000 Caucasian Avars living in Azerbaijan and some more in Georgia today, all suspiciously closer to ancient Hurrians than to their main home Dagestan. Azeris as i said are believed to be turkified descendants of the Caucasian tribes of Caucasian Albania, who were partly iranised before turkification. And even before the iranisation by Sassanian and Akhamenid Empires, there lived Scythians here, whether they were IE, cauasian or turkic speakers? Did any turkis tribes live in Caucasus in BC?
Sorry, I know I pose more questions than provide info, but I find this turkic-Caucasian-IE connections intertwining all the time accorss the whole of Eurasia all the time and now through haplogroups as well.. Caucasians being such ancient ppl and Cauasus being a site of ancient humans as found in Azykh cave (jaw bone dated 300,000 years back!), can it not be the place from where all post-African migration people originated from before spilling to Central Asia and form there to pontic-Caspian steppes, Balkans and the rest of Europe?

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archaiocapilos said:

...
I knew that Turks are not that good with science but he has overcome any other Turk i have known so far.

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aynurrzepa said:

Dalmat,

I found this you mau find interesting!

http://www.imninalu.net/Eurasia_maps.htm
http://www.imninalu.net/Eurasians.htm#Sarmatians , page 12 talks about Chroats and the rest of Eurasian/European people's origins. What's writen there seems quite plausible to me. I mean the whole ancestry and history part, not just the who chroats are part . What do you guys think here?

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iapetoc said:

you are connecting different things, even kumans that are mentioned have another area than Bosnia,
Turkish propaganda is stuck while many Turkish scientists have seen the ones you don't see.

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aynurrzepa said:

Hi, sorry I could not understand what you wrote.. :-( Could you please re-phrase?

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archaiocapilos said:

Hahaha!!! Did you notice that this guy is trying to prove that R, I, J and G origin from Turks? I knew that Turks are not that good with science but he has overcome any other Turk i have known so far.

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Emi said:

I'm new to this site, just stumbled upon it when researching I1*. My father's Y-DNA belongs to this group based on 23andMe results. As far as we know, his father and grandfather are from the Black Sea in Turkey -around Giresun-. Any idea whether I1* is common in this region? They were Muslims, though not religious.

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Emi said:

Can you help me understand what the difference between belonging to I1 versus I1* is? Does the latter imply, the genes were tested for all subclads but failed to fit into any category?

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Emi said:

I'm a but confused, and wonder whether there's a website that can complement 23andMe results with more up to date haplogrouping information.

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TurkmenCopur said:

My purpose wasnt to define the subgroups, but instead defining the main haplogroups. With athey predictor seems to be the most trustable program for this purpose. Like your comment about Grave 32A, athey predictor gave 42.0% probability of I. But still it is the highest frequency chance. The other 3 have probability frequencies of 91.0%, 71.6% and 88.3%. And the maps are also not based on subgroups, instead using only main haplogroup I.

As for Bosniacs, historians have proven that Bosniacs are of Turk origin, probably of Kuman Kipchak tribe. And it is well known, that Hun Turks from Western Hun Empire, have settled and stayed in Central Europe/Balkans area.

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Dale Cooper said:

You know what is the real truth? the real truth is that you turks, every "european" haplogroup you have, you asimilated it trough your conquest of Anatolia and parts of Balkan, that's the real truth... your original genetic, still very present in some parts of turkey like central turkey is of mongol origin, as ofcourse you origin is, a turko-mongol.

The only thing you Turks every brougth to some balkan countries like Albania, Bulgaria etc is haplogroup J1 in small percentages in this countries... and also J2 which you brought from anatolia, even though that HG was already present in south europe... but this J1 which is of arabic-semitic origin, is the only thing you turks ever brought to Europe, due to your mixing with arabs trough centuries of conquest in middle east.

CIAO

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barbarian said:

i agree with you about "I2a2" stuff, although you are too harsh in selecting words, but... there are some conflicts in your idea.

1- how can turkish origin people brings J1 to europe since J1 belongs to arabs, caucasians, mesopotiams.?
2- how could you explain the considerably higher J1 rates in france, italy, portugal where ottoman did not invade?
3- can you give a link showing the corelation between the central anatolia vs "turco-mongol" genetic similarities?

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