Haplogroup N and the Finns

N1c1 seems to descend from Yakut people who lived near Lake Bajkal
first arrival was 12000 years ago, when they settled east of the Fennoscandian ice sheet
but there would have been a 2nd arrival some 4000 years ago
can any one tell more about that?
 
Theory of Gyula László Theory
The Hungarian archaeologist Gyula László has proposed a very controversial theory, also known as "theory of double conquest”, in recent decades. He has argued that the Magyars arrived in two separate waves, centuries apart, a notion which is still controversial. The theory argues that around 670 a new ethnic group moved into the Carpathian Basin, representing the late-Avar culture with a griffin-creeper pattern on their belt-clasp. The theory says that these latter Avars were actually Magyars and that they survived the centuries until the Árpád's Magyars arrival.
 
From what little I know of them, Finns are, paternally, extremely different from all other European populations ; they acquired from their fathers y-DNA that is considered a "genetic isolate" in Europe. Maternally, they are predominantly mtdna haplogroup H at 40 or so percent( as are most European women) , haplogroup U5 and some Haplogroup V. Paternally, about 60% of them are Y-DNA haplogroup N. Haplogroup N split off from East Asian haplogroup O in China, took a hard turn towards the west , as they proceeded north, and continued trekking westwards throughout the cold climates of northern Russia (Siberia) for thousands of years, all the long accumulating genetic diversity until reaching their current location in Finland.
 
Correction, sorry Finnish mtdna doesn't really have mtdna haplogroup V although I believe the rest to be valid : )
 
Basically Finns are what happens when N1c most frequent in Finland, nenets, Yakuts, other Siberian people's that separated from O in east Asia near Chinese origin point, intermarry with mtdna H and mtdna U5 women. So most common combination is N1c and mtdna H but there is also lesser, half as much, but still frequent y-DNA I1a and mtdna U5. So a Finn can be N1c and mtdna H or N1c and mtdna U5, but some are also I1a and mtdna H , etc. this is what it is to be Finn.
 
K gave birth to NO, O would stop in south-central china whereas N would head north and west until attaining western Siberia (north Russia)/Finland and the Baltic states (Estonia,Latvia,Lithuania)
 
That is common knowledge at this point (N+O) just like L+T
 
Do Estonias show any Asiatic feature? I have seen just two of them altogether, and the one I have seen I did not notice any asiatic feature.
 
I mean the haplogroup movements, not physical characteristics, Estonians are slavo-Finnic (40% N1c and 40% R1a with 5-10% I1.) they are diluted Slavs and Finnish types with typical European mtdna (H,U,T) etc.
 
I mean the haplogroup movements, not physical characteristics, Estonians are slavo-Finnic (40% N1c and 40% R1a with 5-10% I1.) they are diluted Slavs and Finnish types with typical European mtdna (H,U,T) etc.
O.K but in many Fins Asians features are visible. Others show strong eastern European features. If, as you are saying they are 40% N1c they too should have asian phenotypes. Let say Albanians have 50% of their genes from Near East, and the Near eastern phenotypes are common.
 
Finns are 63% N1c and 30% I1, they don't have much else whereas the other Baltic states (Estonia,Latvia,Lithuania) are heavily diluted with male R1a in the mix as well. Finns maternally have much H! (40%) 20% are H1+H3 to be more precise but 40% H in total, just as most Europeans are! They also have some 25% mtdna U, most of it (20%) being U5. They are an indigenous group of southeast Asian men that made a very bold move north into Siberia from south/central china and eventually migrated into the easternmost fringes of Europe (Finland,the Baltic region predominantly, northern Russia) where they mixed in with typical European females creating a sort of new ethnic group. Note that by the time the men of N reached Finland, they had undergone even further genetic mutations N-N1a-N1b-N1c etc. that further differentiated them from their long lost asiatic cousins of hg O. (O dominates china/southeast Asia today; Vietnam, can be found in Laos, Thailand, Philippines, Taiwan, even Malaysia and Japan, although hg D dominates Japan, there's a good 25-30% O in Japan as well.)
 
"Eastern European" phenotypes are quite diverse, the terminology you're using is not really helpful.

Both Finns and Baltic populations have the highest proportions of Mesolithic genes, with the main difference that the former are substantially more asian shifted than the later. So it seems that the Finns had some kind of contact with Siberian populations that did not affect the Baltic area (or just did to a much lesser extent). However, the Balts were definetly more affected during the Neolithic, and specially by the IE migrations, than Basques or Sardinians for instance.

Concerning the topic, I still don't see that N1c was responsible of the mongoloid admixture considering its prevalence among Balts. Maybe other haplogroups, such as Q or others, even if less present, are the remnants of the ancient Asian contacts. N was probably originally very asian-like, but when it became N1c could be already diluted with Caucasoids.
 
I do think that they where Asian like personally. It's just that among contact with typically European females (H+U lineages for example, many become blond and aryan looking half white/ half asiatic, with blue eyes etc.
 
I'm basing my argument on admixture experiments. N1c is very frequent among Balts as well, but they are far from showing 6-8% Siberian as the Finns do. Maybe 1% or even less. Without taking into account the unknown percent of asian ancestry included inside the so called "Northern clusters", but there's definetly a substantial difference between Finns and Balts having both a lot of N1c linages.

I mean, taking modern frequencies as reference, there's no clear proof that the reason is N1c. ¿Why the correlation works for one group and not for the others?
 
Not to be forgotten: There can be also some pseudo asian look due to borealization as an adaptation to very cold climates.
 
Look at Yakuts and nenets for example, very high I. n1c, asiatic character? Definitely yes, it becomes less evident with the fins/Sami people and Baltic states which also have quite high N1c. I guess the mtdna in both these regions is what changes, the Finns having mixed far more with European blond haired blue eyed Mtdna.
 
Whereas probably the Yakuts and nenets mixed in predominantly with female Siberian/asiatic even Amerindian lineages probably (B,F,maybes even mtdna A)
 
"Eastern European" phenotypes are quite diverse, the terminology you're using is not really helpful.

Both Finns and Baltic populations have the highest proportions of Mesolithic genes, with the main difference that the former are substantially more asian shifted than the later. So it seems that the Finns had some kind of contact with Siberian populations that did not affect the Baltic area (or just did to a much lesser extent). However, the Balts were definetly more affected during the Neolithic, and specially by the IE migrations, than Basques or Sardinians for instance.

Concerning the topic, I still don't see that N1c was responsible of the mongoloid admixture considering its prevalence among Balts. Maybe other haplogroups, such as Q or others, even if less present, are the remnants of the ancient Asian contacts. N was probably originally very asian-like, but when it became N1c could be already diluted with Caucasoids.

I think this post is the most correct. As stated, high N correlates with high Northern European/mesolithic genes. Finns have gotten their Siberian admixture from somewhere else - its was probably not an ancestral component carried from the Uralic Urheimat. There is of course no doubt that N come from Asia, but that migration was so ancient that N-people were completly assimialted into the caucasoid gene pool.

The most widely held theory is that the proto-Saami speaking people, moving from the Uralic Urheimat in the Volga region, picked up Siberian genes from a population in North-Eastern Europe. They then moved to Lapland and mixed with the paleo-European population to form present day Saamis. Finns in turn got their Siberian admixture from the proto-Saami speaking people. This explain why all Uralic people do not have Siberian genes. For example Veps lack it, and it's not found in the Baltic although Finnic languages were previously spoken there.
 
It is true that the Finns are a blender of Mongoloid and Germanic people. Some Mongoloid features are still apparent even in tall and blond Finns. Likewise, many northern and eastern Swedes also have slight Mongoloid features (especially in Gotland, afaik).

Really? Do you actually think that a 5-6% share of the genome could be so visible? Especially considering how ancient the admixture is, how evenly the genes must be spread out.

What you see is probably the result of genetic drift and missing out on otherwise common European genes. Different facial features.

I wrote that the Finns were a blend of Germanic and Mongoloid people 3 years ago. It was a mistake. I should have written pre-Germanic, which is to say Paleolithic Northern European (hg I1). I1 is also common among the Saami, who are thought to be the descendants of the last Paleolithic hunter-gatherers from Scandinavia - those that were not absorbed by the Indo-European R1a and R1b people.

I still think that is an oversimplification. West Finns do in fact have high I and germanic or proto-germanic people have lived in Finland, before or after the arrival of Finns, as is evident in very old loanwords, but the proto-Finnish speaking people who mixed with these germanics (or whatever they were) were not Siberian. Rather Baltic, if any label fits them at all. The Siberian admixture comes from another source as i state in the post above.
 

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