Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

;623971 said:
The open question here is no how much steppe they had, but where they the carriers of the Greek language?

Not Greek yet. But they could have been speaking an IE Graeco-Phrygian language from which it branched into separate languages. The Phrygians split off early, then a proto-Hellenic language remained in the region from which the Greek southern dialects and Northerwest dialects like Epirot and Macedonian evolved. After all, the archaeological record shows that Epirus/Thessaly/South Macedonia to be part of the proto-Greek area.
 
Not Greek yet. But they could have been speaking an IE Graeco-Phrygian language from which it branched into separate languages. The Phrygians split off early, then a proto-Hellenic language remained in the region from which the Greek southern dialects and Northerwest dialects like Epirot and Macedonian evolved. After all, the archaeological record shows that Epirus/Thessaly/South Macedonia to be part of the proto-Greek area.

So basically the original Greeks are closer to Kosovar than Modern Greeks. This is a big discovery.


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So basically the original Greeks are closer to Kosovar than Modern Greeks. This is a big discovery.


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I would not call them Greek yet. But in the same way Ashkenazi Jews are closer to Mycenaeans, Log 04 could be closer to Kosovars or North Italians or other Balkan peoples, than the average modern Greek. And Kosovars may have not existed with their current genetic signature until much later. But totally irrelevant if you ask me.
 
I would not call them Greek yet. But in the same way Ashkenazi Jews are closer to Mycenaeans, Log 04 could be closer to Kosovars or North Italians or other Balkan peoples, than the average modern Greek. And Kosovars may have not existed with their current genetic signature until much later. But totally irrelevant if you ask me.

In the same way was concluded that modern Greeks are mythical decent of Mycenaeans.


https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...ave-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals


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I would not call them Greek yet. But in the same way Ashkenazi Jews are closer to Mycenaeans, Log 04 could be closer to Kosovars or North Italians or other Balkan peoples, than the average modern Greek. And Kosovars may have not existed with their current genetic signature until much later. But totally irrelevant if you ask me.

Kit: Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece (Log04_wgs_trim5bp)

Closest Ancient populations...

Gaul + Gallo-Roman (8.365)
Gaul + Illyrian (9.087)
Thuringii + Gallo-Roman (9.346)
Gallo-Roman + Frank (9.41)
Gaul (9.457)
Thuringii + Illyrian (10.6)
Illyrian (11.88)
Gallo-Roman (11.93)
Frank (13.31)
Thuringii (14.17)

It is hard for me to see this ancient person as carrier of the Greek Language in Greece. She looks like a recent migrant from the Pannonia Basin.


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Last edited:
I tried to figure out what kind of 50% Steppe admixture Log4 and Log2 had. The authors conclude that the Pontic Steppe groups that arrived in Greece were more of Eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry than CHG. So the EBA steppe can be modeled as 66% EHG and 34% CHG. While the Yamnaya from other studies had an almost even mix of EHG: CHG ratio.


…..Because EHG and CHG are the major components of Steppe-related populations (e.g., Steppe_EMBA with 66% EHG-like and 34% IranN/CHG-like0 (Figure 3), consistent with previous results (de Barros Damgaard et al., 2018), this. -

Supplementary, p. 8



Here the thing, if Log 4 was 50% "Steppe MLBA" then she‘s not closest to Scots since from what I recall Northern Europeans can be modeled as 70-100% "Steppe MLBA" aka Corded Ware/Sintashta
 
It's ~62% Steppe MLBA



Okay, but Log4 still scores lower Steppe MLBA than modern Northern European folks. Anyway, from her Pontic Steppe side she has more EHG than CHG. Which I find is interesting to note.
 
So basically the original Greeks are closer to Kosovar than Modern Greeks. This is a big discovery.
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What about Mik15, which is early bronze age Helladic?
 
Mik15 results for MTA:

LmHhIPR.png


1. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.165 - Mik15_wgs
Top 100 % match vs all users


2. Ancient Petras Siteias Crete
2735 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.525 - Pta08_wgs
Top 100 % match vs all users


3. Minoan Moni Odigitria
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.752 - I9130
Top 100 % match vs all users


4. Minoan Lasithi
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.405 - I9005
Top 100 % match vs all users


5. Mycenaean Galatas
1350 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.06 - I9010
Top 100 % match vs all users


6. Minoan Lasithi
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.321 - I0071
Top 100 % match vs all users


7. Minoan Lasithi
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.752 - I0074
Top 100 % match vs all users


8. Ashkelon Philistine Minoan
1150 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.129 - ASH067_ASH_IA1
Top 100 % match vs all users


9. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.376 - Mik15_wgs_trim5bp
Top 100 % match vs all users


10. Neolithic Greece
4000 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.687 - Klei10
Top 100 % match vs all users
 
Mik15 results for MTA:

LmHhIPR.png


1. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.165 - Mik15_wgs
Top 100 % match vs all users


2. Ancient Petras Siteias Crete
2735 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.525 - Pta08_wgs
Top 100 % match vs all users


3. Minoan Moni Odigitria
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.752 - I9130
Top 100 % match vs all users


4. Minoan Lasithi
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.405 - I9005
Top 100 % match vs all users


5. Mycenaean Galatas
1350 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.06 - I9010
Top 100 % match vs all users


6. Minoan Lasithi
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.321 - I0071
Top 100 % match vs all users


7. Minoan Lasithi
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.752 - I0074
Top 100 % match vs all users


8. Ashkelon Philistine Minoan
1150 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.129 - ASH067_ASH_IA1
Top 100 % match vs all users


9. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.376 - Mik15_wgs_trim5bp
Top 100 % match vs all users


10. Neolithic Greece
4000 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.687 - Klei10
Top 100 % match vs all users

I don’t see anything unusual for this sample considering location and time.


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Right, but my point is that this is an older Helladic sample, with very little steppe.

I find it difficult that Logkas samples or population similar to them can be the carriers of the Greek language during MBA. Other than that the rest seems logical.


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For me, I find it interesting that EBA Helladic is similar to LBA Myceneans. To me it shows these Ancient Greeks remained relatively consistent throughout the Bronze Age in the south.

This is a good point as well.


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Mik15 results for MTA:

LmHhIPR.png


1. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.165 - Mik15_wgs
Top 100 % match vs all users


2. Ancient Petras Siteias Crete
2735 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.525 - Pta08_wgs
Top 100 % match vs all users


3. Minoan Moni Odigitria
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.752 - I9130
Top 100 % match vs all users


4. Minoan Lasithi
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.405 - I9005
Top 100 % match vs all users


5. Mycenaean Galatas
1350 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.06 - I9010
Top 100 % match vs all users


6. Minoan Lasithi
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.321 - I0071
Top 100 % match vs all users


7. Minoan Lasithi
2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.752 - I0074
Top 100 % match vs all users


8. Ashkelon Philistine Minoan
1150 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.129 - ASH067_ASH_IA1
Top 100 % match vs all users


9. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.376 - Mik15_wgs_trim5bp
Top 100 % match vs all users


10. Neolithic Greece
4000 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.687 - Klei10
Top 100 % match vs all users

I do not have access to MTA. What modern populations is this sample closest to?
 

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